Fan Noise A Problem?

[Sam Roberts]

Would the camera's cooling fan noise be picked up by a Sennheiser 416 mounted on, or very close to, the camera body?

[Noah Kadner]

Shouldn't be- the fan is supposed to shut off the moment you start recording.

Noah

[Stuart English]

The fan speed is programmed the camera, so if you are in AUTO mode (the default) it will switch to a low speed mode when in record. In most circumstances that is pretty much inaudible.

[Philippe Vandendriessche]

The difference between RED in single system and any real silent camera and double system is that you don't have or you have usable sound before and after camera runs. In documentary, it is very useful to have those "sound handles".

[snaillael]

IMHO the sound of red in record mode is still audible. Especially on CU's, where the camera is as close as the boom.

I would like to know if anyone in post has been able to roll the high hiss off with out drying out dialog.

[Andrew Rowe]

If a Sennheiser 416 is in the same room as a Red, you will definitely hear its fans during normal level dialogue. As snaillael suggests, the audio will have to be sorted out in post.

It's unlikely you will hear any fan noise shooting exteriors, provided the mic is NOT attached to the camera.

[Jean Déraps]

I'm hoping they have figured out a way to make the EPIC fan noise really inaudible....

[Nick Gardner]

I am somewhat confused by peoples reports of loud fans, every Red I have worked with went dead silent the minute you hit the big red button.

Nick

[Jamie Havill]

I am somewhat confused by peoples reports of loud fans, every Red I have worked with went dead silent the minute you hit the big red button.

Nick

Same. Our audio was clean as a whistle from the moment they hit record.

[Rob Castiglione]

I try to keep the microphone at least six feet away from the camera or so not to capture the sound of the camera.

[Tony Lorentzen]

As Stuart says - as long as the camera is in auto mode then you won't get into trouble with the audio guys/gals. I haven't had a single comment about the camera from the audio guys - at least not about the fan noise ;-)

[Alex.Mitchell]

I have had some problems with the fan when I did double system on a RED project a few months ago. I never realized that there were fan settings though. Maybe next time I'll kindly ask the DP to turn them down...

[J. Eric Camp]

The fans never shut off. They run at a very low RPM but do not turn off. Depending on the situation, orientation of the mic to the camera, distance of mic to camera, type of mic, level of the desirable audio etc you will come across situations where our audio oriented friends will raise flags.

Most times it is totally fine.

[Marc Wielage]

The last Red project for which I did location sound, I ran into a high-frequency noise from the camera-mounted LCD display. Turning off the display was not an option. We wound up using both a carefully-placed boom mike for the scene, plus a wireless lavaliere on each actor as a backup, just to give the dialog editors some options.

Ultimately, I think they used more lavs than boom, but they always kept in a little boom to open up the sound and provide a little more ambience. Otherwise, lavs just sound so dead and fake, particularly in situations like this. We also used some sound blankets to help reduce the reflections, which also controlled spurious noise to some degree.

If it isn't fan noise, it's VTR noise (in cameras like the Sony F950 and F23), or it's computer hard drive noise. It's always something. http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/sigh.gif

[Marti D. Humphrey CAS]

The Red Camera is VERY NOISY! I mixed a film called "The Hole" in 3D that had 2 Red Cameras and with the close ups they were very loud.
Don't let anyone tell you different!
They LOOK Amazing but......
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1085779/fullcredits

Marti D. Humphrey CAS
www.thedubstage.com

[jbeale]

The Red Camera is VERY NOISY! I mixed a film called "The Hole" in 3D that had 2 Red Cameras and with the close ups they were very loud. Don't let anyone tell you different!
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1085779/fullcredits
Marti D. Humphrey CAS
www.thedubstage.com

I think most of us here have experienced various cameras firsthand, and there have been a lot of reports, covering the full range from "very noisy" to "very quiet". I suspect that different individual REDs may have different sound levels, as well as varying levels of noise on set of course. Also, if the set is hot the fans will be faster = louder, and slower/quieter if it is cool.

[Marti D. Humphrey CAS]

I think most of us here have experienced various cameras firsthand, and there have been a lot of reports, covering the full range from "very noisy" to "very quiet". I suspect that different individual REDs may have different sound levels, as well as varying levels of noise on set of course. Also, if the set is hot the fans will be faster = louder, and slower/quieter if it is cool.

What's not "cool" is the sound is the noise coming from the RED.
This is not my first run in with the RED.
I was impressed by the look, but those who designed it did not take the noise into consideration.
The RED looks first class, but I don't rate it that way in the ambient noise level .

[sander kamp]

The fan in the camera can become more noisy over time. I just had mine replaced while it was at RED for the sensor upgrade and it is a lot quieter now.

[Harry Clark]

Dr. Sound,
Is it any noisier than an SR3 or a 535? Not in my experience.
I've owned several SR cameras (1's and 3's) I've lived through the evolution of the Arri 35mm line from the BL series (remember optical flat "sound glass" on the front?) through the 535 and the Arricam as an AC. I've always worked closely with my sound department brothers to help make the cameras quieter, from barneys to sound blankets to using studio matteboxes with neoprene donuts when I would have preferred a clip-on.
Never yet, in almost three years of owning my Reds and working alongside my friends in the sound department, have I been asked to take any of those measures from the old days. Of course I also keep my camera on "SILENT", which is my preferred setting. My theory is that if I let the fans go full blast between takes, the innards will be that much cooler at the start of the next take, and the fans will run slower longer.
I also think a Red One is quieter than the tape deck mechanism of Sony's 1/2" tape cameras, especially as those cameras age. I've worked with 1/2" cameras that I swear were noisier than a BL!
I'm a camera guy, not a sound guy, but I will tell you that in my experience, the myriad of other sounds while working on location are much more problematic for the sound department than the barely perceptible single moving part on a Red One.
Cheers,
Harry
ps- not trying to be confrontational, just sharing my perspective...

[Marti D. Humphrey CAS]

Dr. Sound,
Is it any noisier than an SR3 or a 535? Not in my experience.
I've owned several SR cameras (1's and 3's) I've lived through the evolution of the Arri 35mm line from the BL series (remember optical flat "sound glass" on the front?) through the 535 and the Arricam as an AC. I've always worked closely with my sound department brothers to help make the cameras quieter, from barneys to sound blankets to using studio matteboxes with neoprene donuts when I would have preferred a clip-on.
Never yet, in almost three years of owning my Reds and working alongside my friends in the sound department, have I been asked to take any of those measures from the old days. Of course I also keep my camera on "SILENT", which is my preferred setting. My theory is that if I let the fans go full blast between takes, the innards will be that much cooler at the start of the next take, and the fans will run slower longer.
I also think a Red One is quieter than the tape deck mechanism of Sony's 1/2" tape cameras, especially as those cameras age. I've worked with 1/2" cameras that I swear were noisier than a BL!
I'm a camera guy, not a sound guy, but I will tell you that in my experience, the myriad of other sounds while working on location are much more problematic for the sound department than the barely perceptible single moving part on a Red One.
Cheers,
Harry
ps- not trying to be confrontational, just sharing my perspective...
Harry,
Let me respond on two key areas. You said " I am a camera guy, not a sound guy...". The difference is what you hear on set is completely different than what you hear on "The Dub Stage". What you feel isn't loud can be very loud, especially with the "Red" creating a very broadband noise on close ups.
It is not like Film cameras where one can notch out offending frequencies, but very broad noise that affects the dialog.
I have found that on the first generation Sony HD cameras they too were very noisy.
I am not trying to be confrontational, I am just stating my opinion about the Production Sound I get from "The Red". To my eye "The Red" looks amazing, especially when I saw the Joe Dante Movie I mixed in 3D called "The Hole".
I went to the screening at Fotokem in the DI room and put on the glasses and was blown away on how it looked. Fortunately after working very hard on the Production Sound it also sounded very good.

In my experience I think as much attention MUST be paid to the ambient noise from the camera as the look of what is being captured on it.
When that is done in my mind it will rise even higher on the list of what a fantastic camera it is.
Thank you for letting me voice my opinion.
Sincerely,

[Philip Allister Anderson]

The camera noise is an issue when you are running long takes with dialogue, if you have to turn the fans on. We were shooting 10min takes in about 80 degree weather. It was a real fine line between getting the take and having a camera overheat, which led to a corrupted take. Under a typical 1-5min take there shouldn't be much of a problem. If you have to turn the fans on because of heat, then no sound guy I've worked with would be okay with it. I wish they would retrofit a top vent or something in the system that you could open when you knew the takes were going to go long.

[Harry Clark]

Dr. Sound,
Is it more of an issue that the frequency varies with the speed of the fan, or is the sound itself covering a wider range of frequencies, making a traditional notch filter less effective?
Is it more readily apparent in a post environment, where audio monitoring is more critical and detailed than on set?
Is there anything we, as camera department personnel, can do to mitigate the sound, other than move farther away and change to a longer focal length (which I doubt will happen very often, since that would pit a creative choice against a technical one)?
Do you have a recommendation to the Red Team on the fan hardware? Is there a better vendor, perhaps a more friction-free fan motor design?
I'll of course continue to be my usual conscientious self and double-check to make sure our sound department on set is happy. But honestly, not a one of the top-notch guys in New York with whom I have had the privilege to work with, have complained about the fan noise during a take.
Cheers,
Harry

[Philip Allister Anderson]

The sound guy who often works the features I work on; the pacific northwest is a pretty small community, doesn't complain when the fans do not run during takes. i.e. auto or silent. If it were a problem I am positive I would have had him talking to me about it.

[Marti D. Humphrey CAS]

Dr. Sound,
Is it more of an issue that the frequency varies with the speed of the fan, or is the sound itself covering a wider range of frequencies, making a traditional notch filter less effective?
Is it more readily apparent in a post environment, where audio monitoring is more critical and detailed than on set?
Is there anything we, as camera department personnel, can do to mitigate the sound, other than move farther away and change to a longer focal length (which I doubt will happen very often, since that would pit a creative choice against a technical one)?
Do you have a recommendation to the Red Team on the fan hardware? Is there a better vendor, perhaps a more friction-free fan motor design?
I'll of course continue to be my usual conscientious self and double-check to make sure our sound department on set is happy. But honestly, not a one of the top-notch guys in New York with whom I have had the privilege to work with, have complained about the fan noise during a take.
Cheers,
Harry

Harry,
In my previous post I stated it was more "broadband noise". Especially when you mix with TWO Red cameras in the room (or 4 in some shots) for 3D. I won't comment on other Post Sound mixers unless I know their names other than to say, a lot of guys in Post just get poor location sound and don't know good production. You can PM their names and I'll let you know if I know of them or their work.
I want to make a point that I am NOT asking for the cinematographer to change their ways, I am just asking for more thought (about the sound coming from the Red) to make this a better product for the whole picture.

[Harry Clark]

Gotcha.
I'll assume that by "broadband" you mean it's not likely to be fixed by a notch filter.
The sound department members to whom I refer are all location sound recordists. I have never met a post production sound mixer in my life; I work on-set, not in post.
The Red Team will have to chime in on camera design. I was specifically looking for input on the camera department side of things for steps we can take to mitigate the sound.
Cheers,
Harry

[Will Keir]

I just love when people tell me about fixing it in post. It's about the last thing I ever hear them say.

In certain situations the fan is to loud, even at 25% it makes enough noise. Hopefully we will have a firmware to disable the fan completely when needed.


the audio will have to be sorted out in post.

[Will Keir]

Same here. My R1 was much quieter in short takes than my Epic. Never really noticed the R1 fan. Noticed the Epic fan right out of the box, in fact, the FedX lady was wondering what the loud humming coming from the package was.

She's loud, but she is the future, I'll adapt.


I am somewhat confused by peoples reports of loud fans, every Red I have worked with went dead silent the minute you hit the big red button.

Nick

[Christopher Mills]

I am both a location sound mixer and a camera operator.
I also have 20 years experience as a producer, shepherding projects from prep to delivery.
I have worked with both R1 and Epic.
You flat out can not avoid hearing the fan in an Epic. On an interior set, you will be recording it, esp in boomed closeups.
When recording, I have taken to trying the notch filter on my Zaxcom recorder, and rolling off low frequencies on my Sound Devices front end.
This is not perfect, but the audio post budget has been enough that the projects I do are delivered... and some of them are not able to loop.
I do think that so far, the "real" environments (as opposed to sound stages) on which I have worked have been distracting post sound from complaining to me.. but I know that it any interior track I record for an EPIC shoot will have fan noise audible...
I do not see any way around this..

so.. don't kid yourself..the camera is louder than an SR... not louder than a 535 (worked with both)...unless they needed service. but there's a point where the location recorder has to deliver a track, even an imperfect one.

I wondered if even larger heat sinks and a modified housing might help.. but I don't work at RED, so have no idea what it would taketo keep the processors cool enough to keep working..

As I live in Georgia, I am also wondering how the humidity here is going to affect DSMC system bodies, which have rather large fan vents..

When I get my camera, it is NOT going to the beach or the desert...

Good luck, all!

[Scott Brown]

I posted on an earlier thread about the Epic fan noise - definitely louder than the RED One. I think I can live with the fans running at 33% during takes but the camera does start to get warm quickly. In our office which was quite cool, the camera hit 70 degrees in just under 17 minutes in record mode, so I guess in typically filming environments with lighting, the camera will hit that temperature much sooner.

One look at the footage and I can forgive anything BUT I've always wished RED would give the audio side of the camera a wee bit more attention - a RED Sound Devices IO module would be really nice :o)

For once the chilly Scottish climate will prove useful!

Scott

[Marc Wielage]

When recording, I have taken to trying the notch filter on my Zaxcom recorder, and rolling off low frequencies on my Sound Devices front end. This is not perfect, but the audio post budget has been enough that the projects I do are delivered... and some of them are not able to loop.
I think this is throwing the baby out with the bath. The problem (as Marti said above) is that the Red Epic fan noise is broadband -- you can't just notch it out because it's multi-frequency noise.

What can be done is to have a good re-recording engineer or dialog editor sample the noise, then use a program like iZotope RX to subtract this noise sample from the dialog. This, plus some finessing with dialog levels and careful microphone placement, can help salvage otherwise bad audio. There's lots of tools for this kind of thing; Cedar is another high-end processor that does wonders with noisy environments.

I suspect that it's possible to reduce the noise level with better fans, but Red has not publicly commented on this, as far as I know.

[Scott Brown]

How does Scarlet compare to Epic in terms of heat/fan noise when recording interviews?

Scott

[Peter Moretti]

... I have never met a post production sound mixer in my life; I work on-set, not in post. ...

Sorry, no offense, but I had to LOL at this one. Spoken like a true director or DP.

[Christopher Mills]

Marc, I do understand that.. and will propose it on the next project I work.. I have given "fan tone" without the notch and roll off, and "fan tone" with them... I so rarely am given an opportunity to interface with audio post, which I find impedes my ability to deliver most useful tracks...
Many of my clients perceive the notched and rolled off frequency audio as "better sounding" in the field, without considering what they might have done later...
and some of them barely want to pay their picture editor, let alone book a sound post session...
sigh...

[Les C.]

I just love when people tell me about fixing it in post. It's about the last thing I ever hear them say.

In certain situations the fan is to loud, even at 25% it makes enough noise. Hopefully we will have a firmware to disable the fan completely when needed.

If you disable the fan, the temperature will rise and invalidate your black shade leading to more noise.

The only hope is a fan speed that keeps it under the threshold of turning on full blast, and maybe that fan speed will go down once power management gets implemented.

BTW - I've used Izotope's RX2 for fan noise with some degree of success.

[Brian Hughes]

I had noticed the hum of the fan on the Epic X when viewing one that someone had for sale. My only hope was that sound were to disappear when the recording started. Otherwise, major design flaw, with a tedious task ahead in audio post.

[Les C.]

I had noticed the hum of the fan on the Epic X when viewing one that someone had for sale. My only hope was that sound were to disappear when the recording started. Otherwise, major design flaw, with a tedious task ahead in audio post.
I think power management (when implemented) will only be really noticeable when not recording.

While it's recording, the internal chips are eating a lot of power and generating heat. My best guess is that the fan is going to need to be on to some degree.

So, zero fan noise is probably not going to be an option.

I'm hoping that the Scarlet/Epic will have the ability to keep the internal temperature constant, while running the slowest speed.

It seems like the only way to get low noise is to black shade at the temperature you're going to be recording, and if it fluctuates very much from that (that would be an interesting test to see -differences in noise level at different deviations from black shade temperature!!!), the noise level is going to increase.

I'm planning on making some kind of rig with acoustic sound deadening foam, to try to muffle the noise and keep the camera as far away from the boom as possible as I'm not shooting a movie with ADR.

[Marc Wielage]

I'm planning on making some kind of rig with acoustic sound deadening foam, to try to muffle the noise and keep the camera as far away from the boom as possible as I'm not shooting a movie with ADR.
In the old "film days," people would often take very noisy film cameras -- like an Arriflex IIC -- and put it in a barney, which was a large plastic box filled with foam in order to deaden the noise. But you can't do this with a digital camera, because it needs air flow to cool it. The air flow is what's making the noise; if you put more stuff on the camera, it's going to tend to overheat. I'm not sure there's an easy solution to this.

I think choice of fan, number of blades, and the vents on the outside edge all contribute to mechanical noise. I'm curious to see how people shooting multiple cameras in interiors are dealing with this problem.

[Les C.]

In the old "film days," people would often take very noisy film cameras -- like an Arriflex IIC -- and put it in a barney, which was a large plastic box filled with foam in order to deaden the noise. But you can't do this with a digital camera, because it needs air flow to cool it. The air flow is what's making the noise; if you put more stuff on the camera, it's going to tend to overheat. I'm not sure there's an easy solution to this.

I think choice of fan, number of blades, and the vents on the outside edge all contribute to mechanical noise. I'm curious to see how people shooting multiple cameras in interiors are dealing with this problem.
I was thinking something more like 'flags' made of foam. Instead of blocking light to the camera they would block some noise to the mic?

Probably hopeless, as I've got hard wood floors, would have to stop all the reflections by putting a tarp down (which I do around the 'talent' anyway to block light and sound reflections) - but ... it might lessen the sound a bit?

[Christopher Mills]

Dyson fan to the rescue???
Anyone?

[Scott Brown]

So, with my plan to record long interviews at 33% fan setting with a steady rise in temperature from around 45 degrees to upwards of 70, I'm going to also see a rise in video "noise" along with the camera temperature rise? Is this going to be a big problem? Constant black shading when we're shooting is not a realistic option for us due to time constraints.

Best wishes

Scott

[Les C.]

So, with my plan to record long interviews at 33% fan setting with a steady rise in temperature from around 45 degrees to upwards of 70, I'm going to also see a rise in video "noise" along with the camera temperature rise? Is this going to be a big problem? Constant black shading when we're shooting is not a realistic option for us due to time constraints.

Best wishes

Scott
I don't know the answer, but ... I did start a thread so maybe we'll get one.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?76524-test-showing-noise-levels-at-different-deviations-from-black-shade-temperature

[Scott Brown]

Thanks Les

Let me know if you hear anything on this front.

Best wishes

Scott

[Will Keir]

Noah is right. I was worried 25% was the lowest I could get the fan while recording but after a test day today, the fan shuts off completely and is silent when I record <2 minutes.


Shouldn't be- the fan is supposed to shut off the moment you start recording.

Noah