Canon mount for the RED ONE...

[Jannard]

There are several options on the horizon for the Canon lens customers.

In alphabetical order...

Andylesniak- manual
Birger
Element
P+S- manual

Any mount that sits ahead of the adjustable lens mount is fine from a warranty standpoint.

I suspect that one of the above companies will get full RED certification for an electronic version.

Jim

[Rami Mustakim]

Can you tell us more?
Please...

[Kenn Christenson]

There are several options on the horizon for the Canon lens customers.

In alphabetical order...

Andylesniak- manual
Birger
Element
P+S- manual

Any mount that sits ahead of the adjustable lens mount is fine from a warranty standpoint.

I suspect that one of the above companies will get full RED certification for an electronic version.

Jim

Sure hope "on the horizon" means within the next month. Sure been waiting a long time for an electronic Canon mount.:sad:

[Michael Hastings]

wondered if we could find out answers to these lingering questions:

What is the reasoning for having the front of the adjuster the dividing line since it doesn't seem that it creates a substantially greater risk? In fact, it has been the front (legal) PL that proved very difficult or impossible to remove on many cameras. The adjuster was much easier - just four screws that weren't frozen. In fact the safe method of fixing the frozen pl screws is to fully remove the side lock screws and dismantle/split the adjuster so you can take that part of the assembly to a work bench - away from the camera - to drill out the screws.

In terms of the i/data cable, it doesn't seem much more or less vulnerable whether you remove the front pl or the front pl and the adjuster.

Many of us would be happy to have the i/data cable removed or neutralized in order to be able to switch mounts on our own. Could we pay RED or a certified technician to remove it? Could it be as simple as carefully cutting each wire individually, each wire 1/4" shorter than the other to avoid the possibility of shorting? I would want to put a shrink tube cap on each as well but someone mentioned that might outgas and contaminate the olpf or sensor. But there is probably some safe material, potting compound or whatever.

Most of my shoots are on exotic islands and other remote somewhat harsh environments. Doesn't it seem likely that at some point we are going to want to remove the whole mount assembly to get total access to the OLPF for truly thorough cleaning? Approximately what is the cost of replacement of a scratched OLPF? On my last shoot (someone else's camera) the AC thought there might be a small scratch, which sent a bit of a panic through the team and got us wondering.

Also, with all of my other professional cameras BETACAM. DIGIBETA, VARICAM, HDCAM, etc. we have gotten a service manual with complete circuit diagrams, parts lists, etc. which makes it possible to fix things when we are a long way from home, and have spent large sums to get there. Will a service manual be available for the REDONE soon?

[Harmonica]

Did I miss something? Element, as in Element Technica? And since it's not marked as manual like the other two, I take it is Birger-like?

[jimhare]

Is the Muse FD mount banned?

[Anarri]

Did I miss something? Element, as in Element Technica?

Oh thank GOD! time to go cancel my Birger order. Element has a history I am willing to bet money on.

[Tico Llaurador]

As straightforward and simple as the Muse mount is, apparently so, according to Jarred.

[KETCH ROSSi]

There are several options on the horizon for the Canon lens customers.

In alphabetical order...

Andylesniak- manual
Birger
Element
P+S- manual

Any mount that sits ahead of the adjustable lens mount is fine from a warranty standpoint.

I suspect that one of the above companies will get full RED certification for an electronic version.

Jim

:) I knew this thread was coming as soon as I read your post on the other one.

Again it is remarcable the flexibility and support of RED on this, as in a way kinda will be taking sales off the RED lenses, but then again more people will by RED cameras knowing that they can get a decent DSLR lenses set up very inexpensevely(is this a word?).

As I said, options are always good for the consumer, but no matter what I'l go with the one endorsed by RED, which I kinda already know who He is!


ciao

[Shawn Bannon]

Awesome. Since Element and Birger both have electric versions who is getting certified?

[M Hsu]

So the mystery company is element.... I like their stuff a lot.... if andy can show me a shipping dumb mount I'll send him his money right now. Then we can wait and see who's alive when the dust settles. First to market gets my money. Thank you Jim.

[Thom Steinhoff]

I like Element Technica --so far they have a great reputation: Promise, Deliver, Repeat. It is exciting to pull them into the mix.

Eric has put so much heart and soul into his development--I really hope he pulls it off, though. Maybe it's the months of praying for him to deliver, or the underdog effect.

Since he was the first to really make it seem possible, I at least hope he gets some stake in the final solution--without him I'm afraid there would be no one reaching beyond dumb mounts.

[Jannard]

wondered if we could find out answers to these lingering questions:

What is the reasoning for having the front of the adjuster the dividing line since it doesn't seem that it creates a substantially greater risk? In fact, it has been the front (legal) PL that proved very difficult or impossible to remove on many cameras. The adjuster was much easier - just four screws that weren't frozen. In fact the safe method of fixing the frozen pl screws is to fully remove the side lock screws and dismantle/split the adjuster so you can take that part of the assembly to a work bench - away from the camera - to drill out the screws.

In terms of the i/data cable, it doesn't seem much more or less vulnerable whether you remove the front pl or the front pl and the adjuster.

Many of us would be happy to have the i/data cable removed or neutralized in order to be able to switch mounts on our own. Could we pay RED or a certified technician to remove it? Could it be as simple as carefully cutting each wire, each wire 1/4" shorter than the other to avoid the possibility of shorting? I would want to put a shrink tube cap on each as well but someone mentioned that might outgas and contaminate the olpf or sensor. But there is probably some safe material, potting compound or whatever.

Most of my shoots are on exotic islands and other remote somewhat harsh environments. Doesn't it seem likely that at some point we are going to want to remove the whole mount assembly to get total access to the OLPF for truly thorough cleaning? Approximately what is the cost of replacement of a scratched OLPF? On my last shoot (someone else's camera) the AC thought there might be a small scratch, which sent a bit of a panic through the team and got us wondering.

Also, with all of my other professional cameras BETACAM. DIGIBETA, VARICAM, HDCAM, etc. we have gotten a service manual with complete circuit diagrams, parts lists, etc. which makes it possible to fix things when we are a long way from home, and have spent large sums to get there. Will a service manual be available for the REDONE soon?

I said that anything ahead of the adjustable mount is safe. I did NOT say that nothing else would get certified, but we want to work closely with partners to provide a solution without blowing up our camera and having us pay to fix it.

Having said that, we are working more closely now with 3rd parties in an effort to make everyone happy, especially our customers.

Element has proven to be the single most solid accessory maker for RED. They have certainly taught us a few lessons. We are happy for our customers to hear of their interest in building many more accessories for RED, including an electronic Canon mount. Everything they make works... and works well. I am sure they will put out something in the market that is competitive and benefits our customers.

We continue to work with Birger to get that mount compatible with our system. I am sure we will get there.

As for the manual... we are working on it. I also bought several Betacams, a Varicam and a Sony 950. It looks to me like the service manuals cost me between $30K-$50K per camera. :-)

Jim

[Tico Llaurador]

Touché!

[Shawn Bannon]

Wow Element vs Birger. A little competition always helps out. Excited to see what Element Technica is working on. And they are very customer friendly.

[Joel Kaye]

I'm glad I'm along for the ride but damn I should have buckled up a little tighter. Whoever gets a Red Warranty Certified electronic version out first will probably take the lion's share of sales here. I know I'd be working 24/7 to make that happen if I had been invested in a project like this.

You do have to wonder what's up ET's sleeve since they sure knew what Birger was up to. But I've never seen anything electronic from ET. Hmm...

[Joe D'Arcy]

As for the manual... we are working on it. I also bought several Betacams, a Varicam and a Sony 950. It looks to me like the service manuals cost me between $30K-$50K per camera. :-)

Jim

Having said that, do you have a 17.5K manual for the Red?

[Jannard]

Having said that, do you have a 17.5K manual for the Red?

Just send a check... :-)

Jim

[Lexicon]

So can we expect to see some Spike demo footage in the coming months? Heh heh heh....

[Joe D'Arcy]

Just send a check... :-)

Jim

I'm writing it right now. BTW will you throw in the camera along with the manual?

[Michael Hastings]

As for the manual... we are working on it. I also bought several Betacams, a Varicam and a Sony 950. It looks to me like the service manuals cost me between $30K-$50K per camera. :-)

Jim

Good point, HA HA, Have to agree with Tico, touche.

I've always said if RED had waited until it was fully developed, it would be introduced in 2009 at about $45K (which still would have been a bargain) and I probably wouldn't have been in the market. And all of us would have spent the last year and a half talking about 1080P instead of 4K. I know your busy nailing down build sixteen (very nice BTW. shot the sharks with it last week.) so keeping my $25K discount in mind I can wait a bit longer.

Glad you are keeping an open mind. We're moving through summer fast and I need a solution soon so I'm still rooting for Erik to get approved (like maybe Thursday?:biggrin:)

But I also had my housings in the 4K ninjas booth at NAB next to Element's booth so got to talk to Hector a bit. ET makes some seriously cool stuff and they are certainly a potent addition to the party.

[Brian Timmons]

Having said that, we are working more closely now with 3rd parties in an effort to make everyone happy, especially our customers.


I recently sent an email to RED about this concerning the Birger mount. I really appreciate hearing this.

Brian

[Jannard]

It is in everyone's best interests that accessories come out as quickly as possible, as inexpensively as possible and don't blow up the camera! :-)

We have every reason to move things along as quickly as possible on our end. A happy customer makes for a good business.

In the past, we assumed too much... not anymore.

Jim

[Jay A. Kelley]

If anyone is going to purchase an electronic Canon EF mount, I would plead with you to make sure you purchase Birger's / Erik's mount.

The man has put his heart and soul into this project for over a year and deserves our support.

For the record: I do not know Erik very well, and this is not me shilling for him.. I am simply a REDuser who has followed his incredible journey for a long time now, and I feel it would be a terrible thing for his project to fail so close to completion.

Other's may have a mount amoung other products they sell, but this product is Erik's soul focus, and to me, that counts for something.

He's one of us.

Jay

[Joe Vinson]

Glad to see that RED is taking a more active interest in a Canon EF solution. I'm very much looking forward to the day when I can use my three-month-old camera. :)

And yeah, I share Jay's sense of loyalty to Birger. Assuming Erik can get this sucker to market soon.

[Ken Willinger]

Is the Muse FD mount not being considered by RED at all? Has there been any communication between Kevin and the RED team regarding his mount? I have a lot of FD's and no need for electronics...and I bought his mount, though haven't installed it pending the outcome of all this stuff. Will there be any mods to make it acceptable?

[Jarred Land]

I talked to Kevin on the weekend. He isn't proceeding with the current design of the Muse Mount as it was designed around the old (pre-adjustable ) mount.

If he takes another swing at it we will be glad to take a look at it.

[Mark Crabtree]

I am also pulling for Erik. But mostly I am pulling for all of us to acheive the full potential of this amazing Red/Canon combination. Birger has years of experience contolling these lenses and he has developed a system solution customized to the Red One that is proven and is ready now. We have an opportunity here to move forward now, with no more delays, and with the true expert in this arena.

[Tico Llaurador]

Getken, I own the Muse mount and it's simple, well-built and it's very simple to install. It's the only thing that has allowed me to use the RED as a camera and not as a doorstop. And for that I'm very grateful to Kevin Halverson. He's tops.

I found out about the voided warranty just recently (so did Kevin), after I had already installed it. I don't think it's fair, but then again, I don't make the rules at RED.

Hopefully, things will get sorted out adequately with the other third party vendors Jim mentioned. But I can't see why the Muse mount can't be certified just as well.

:meh:

[Paris Remillard]

I'm sure that it would have been stated if the information were available, but is there any sort of timeframe or information at all on the element mount? It would be in their best interest to throw us a bone ASAP.

[Kevin Halverson]

I am sad to say that at this time we won't be accepting any new orders for our FD mount system. I will be in contact with current owner's to explain what can be done (and what the performance limitations are) working within the constraints of the adjustable PL mount. I am sure we will come up with something that will meet everyone's requirements.

Not to worry, we will support all customers who have our mount. We have been manufacturing products for over 20 years (and I have been in manufacturing for over 30) so we won't disappear just because we discontinued one product.

For those that have given their words of encouragement I thank each and every one of you.

Good shooting everyone,

Kevin

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

If anyone is going to purchase an electronic Canon EF mount, I would plead with you to make sure you purchase Birger's / Erik's mount.

The man has put his heart and soul into this project for over a year and deserves our support.

For the record: I do not know Erik very well, and this is not me shilling for him.. I am simply a REDuser who has followed his incredible journey for a long time now, and I feel it would be a terrible thing for his project to fail so close to completion.

Other's may have a mount amoung other products they sell, but this product is Erik's soul focus, and to me, that counts for something.

He's one of us.

Jay

Well said. If I still wind up getting this camera (aside from the Birger mount issue, I insist on a fully functional mic input section, too), I will be buying the Birger and only the Birger. In addition to my desire to reward Erik's ingenuity and tireless work (and rework!), I have a difficult time seeing how any other company could offer what he's offering at the price he's offering it.

ET makes some nice gear, for sure, but their bridgeplate is $900. For $1,450, Birger is offering a game-changing interface for some of the best optical glass in the world (Canon and Nikon) and state-of-the art electronic control of same. That's value on the order of the RED camera itself.

[Stephen Pruitt]

Of course we're all pulling for Erik. . . and I'll certainly buy his mount if/when it comes out. But I wouldn't bet on him to beat ET to the punch.

Stephen

[Shawn Bannon]

In the Element vs Birger debate. I have to say I hope everything works out for Birger and their mount and I will gladly buy it.

But at the same time I've been over to Element Technica and they actually pick up their phone and have great customer service so I am definitely interested in what they have to offer.

[Victor Noir]

...Element has proven to be the single most solid accessory maker for RED. They have certainly taught us a few lessons. We are happy for our customers to hear of their interest in building many more accessories for RED, including an electronic Canon mount. Everything they make works... and works well.
Jim

I agree--they've shown themselves to be pretty fab on a couple of occasions already.

I've begun to think of them as the "P+S Technik of the Left Coast"!

In terms of precision and ingenuity they rival those crafty Germans... just add black socks and sandals! :usd:

[Harrison Diamond]

I guess the question for some of us will be will Element also make a Nikon version... if not, then Birger would seem to still be the option for those of us who want electronic control of G lenses.

[Adam Levins]

I am also pulling for Erik. But mostly I am pulling for all of us to acheive the full potential of this amazing Red/Canon combination. Birger has years of experience contolling these lenses and he has developed a system solution customized to the Red One that is proven and is ready now. We have an opportunity here to move forward now, with no more delays, and with the true expert in this arena.

Yes, Yes and yes.... GO BIRGER!

[Mark B.]

I sort of get this feeling like there's some nepotism between Red and Element Technica.

Birger appears to be the abused underdog in this whole scenario. They'll get my support for that reason, as well as because I trust their electronic skills more than the potential competition.

[Jannard]

I sort of get this feeling like there's some nepotism between Red and Element Technica.

Birger appears to be the abused underdog in this whole scenario. They'll get my support for that reason, as well as because I trust their electronic skills more than the potential competition.

Not exactly sure why you feel this way... we are working with Birger to get this right.

Element is a great company also that has proven to make great stuff.

We support all that support RED.

Jim

[Mark B.]

Not exactly sure why you feel this way... we are working with Birger to get this right.

Element is a great company also that has proven to make great stuff.

We support all that support RED.

Jim

Just a gut feeling arrived at by piecing together lots of bits and pieces from posts, which my conscious mind hasn't put together yet. Hopefully I'll be wrong.

[Adam Levins]

I am not sure the "Video Break Out Box" which is ET's one bit of kit that has ANY electronic components in it give them the know how to make a Smart Canon mount.

Birger has been making mounts for years and has PROVEN he can do it.

What I am saying is I like ET's stuff but it is 99% camera support. I predict a VERY long road before they get anywhere near where Eric is with the Birger right now..

[Lars Xang]

One half of Element-Technica is Stephen Pizzo, who did all the electro-mechanical work for Wescam/Pictorvision - I think they will be fine -

[Mark Thorpe]

I'll go for ET without batting an eye lid. They shipped their orders on time and when I found that I had an older generation of their EVF mount they replaced it and shipped it to me FOC. That kinda client care gets my vote hands down.

To be included in the short list as mentioned by Jim is also something to be proud of by all those mentioned.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Adam Levins]

One half of Element-Technica is Stephen Pizzo, who did all the electro-mechanical work for Wescam/Pictorvision - I think they will be fine -

Ah... I did not know that.

[Joe Vinson]

I sort of get this feeling like there's some nepotism between Red and Element Technica.

Not exactly sure why you feel this way...

Well, in all fairness... how many third-party companies have their products in the official RED store?

[Michael Hastings]

It is in everyone's best interests that accessories come out as quickly as possible, as inexpensively as possible and don't blow up the camera! :-)
Jim

Jim:

I have to take some responsibility for that. It was an unlikely confluence of circumstances. Erik had a problem, but it wasn't clear at the time that one source was the mount instantaneously overdrawing the power circuit, because he had been running it fine for a couple days..

Ldill (one of my customers) had a Thursday deadline on a $150K cost production trip to Africa, and I had a less important deadline for the same weekend - while Erik's test camera was in transit back from RED. We were in line to be beta testers anyway, so I/we pushed Erik to get a couple mounts out. In hindsight if he had even another day or two the problem would have been discovered before ANY mounts had been sent out.

So, along the lines of Jay's post, I would feel very badly if OUR rushing Birger created a permanent issue with either RED or Birger's customers.

I have been telling everyone that will listen that RED represents the biggest thing in underwater photography since the Nikonos back in the sixties. Since then U/W still photographers have always had reasonable cost access to totally professional high level imaging. Yet the motion picture guys were stuck with inferior methods: 8mm, 16mm, standard def video, because 35mm film was just too expensive except for Hollywood budget films. Even High def wasn't quite there.

RED gets us into the 35mm quality range but it is the combination with modern still lenses (both Canon and Nikon) that makes it accessible also to semi pro U/W shooters, documentary types, and even high level amateurs because the internal motorized focus and iris eliminates the need for expensive gearing, and more importantly, means you can instantly change lenses (say from a superwide to a 180 macro) with no change in controls.

Thanks for putting more focus on this - AquaVideo is committed to supporting ALL lens types - but the sooner we get smart mounts, the sooner it helps some of our high level customers AND becomes feasible for the much larger number of second tier customers.

[Andrew M.]

We did mention two ways to hook-up the mount on RED.

One way is to put it on top of adjustable original RED PL mount, for Canon it has to be indented lower, the ring have to have depression so it will be placed bit closer to the sensor.

Second is to remove the PL mount completly and replace it with the adjustable assambly.

There is the third option I see.

It is to take the middle adjustable part out, together with very front of RED PL ring and replace the adjustable part with bit shorter adjustable part. This way the base of adjustable part, the one attached to the base of the sensor with 4 screws will not be removed. This would be nice middle route compromise.

As to the i/cable, as Michael suggested cutting it at 1/4" difference at the end and putting on the very end tight (not shrink tube) of 1/2" long would fix the i/ cable problem.

Process should be approved by RED with good instructional video.

[Erik Widding]

I said that anything ahead of the adjustable mount is safe. I did NOT say that nothing else would get certified, but we want to work closely with partners to provide a solution without blowing up our camera and having us pay to fix it.

Having said that, we are working more closely now with 3rd parties in an effort to make everyone happy, especially our customers.

We continue to work with Birger to get that mount compatible with our system. I am sure we will get there.

I appreciate the clear public statement of position.

[Paul Leeming]

If anyone is going to purchase an electronic Canon EF mount, I would plead with you to make sure you purchase Birger's / Erik's mount.

The man has put his heart and soul into this project for over a year and deserves our support.

For the record: I do not know Erik very well, and this is not me shilling for him.. I am simply a REDuser who has followed his incredible journey for a long time now, and I feel it would be a terrible thing for his project to fail so close to completion.

Other's may have a mount amoung other products they sell, but this product is Erik's soul focus, and to me, that counts for something.

He's one of us.

Jay
I concur wholeheartedly Jay. ET make some great gear and I have a couple of their products, but Erik has been working with a passion on the EF mount and most of the delays have been to make it continually better. Sure, I'd love to have it months ago but like a fine wine, sometimes it pays to let it mature properly....

Cheers,

Paul

[Michael Hastings]

It's getting tough to follow the multiple threads, but since it relates to my earlier post I'll copy it here. I have to package up a rental so haven't had time to read all the interim posts, so I'll just post and run. And hope I haven't done something really stupid (and this all gets resolved for the best)

Copy from birger mount thread:
Okay, so now we get to this thread. Again, I don't have much time so I apologize if it steps on anyone's toes.


...Thanks for posting the email... I wish we had seen this. As I have said before, we are trying to work this out... with our customers best interests in mind. We are confident that we can find a resolution, but we absolutely do not think that "shipping before a warranty issue is resolved" is in the best interests of our customers.

This email will not stop our efforts to work with Birger. But we want to be very clear that we have had a major issue the way it stands now. RED paid for the repairs on the 1st problem... but we will not going forward unless a change is made to the mount....

Jim

Jim: I have publicly and privately thanked RED for taking care of that repair; publicly apologized to this thread for using up the freebie:biggrin:, publicly described that I had previous significant experience with warranty issues with Panasonic and explained that it was complicated and time consuming and urged patience, and publicly made VERY clear that I didn't think damage from improper installation should be covered by RED.

But for the people in this thread there a couple of big issues that have never been addressed:

A smart mount for modern Canon/Nikon lenses is important for a variety of reasons, but for many here (not me) it is quite literally the difference between REDONE as a doorstop and REDONE as a viable camera for their situation. The fact that RED had not seen that email, (which was published here in the thread within hours, over a week ago) as you mention, points to one source of frustration for us because even though this is the largest thread on REDUSER in both posts and views, and has been for months, the first post from a RED principal AFTER 7 MONTHS AND OVER 1800 OTHER POSTS, is Jarred's alluding to some other possible future manufacturer.

The other biggie is that just a week or so ago RED announced the somewhat arbitrary delineation of the adjuster as the no man's land for warranty purposes - which was a BOMBSHELL - and apparently never communicated before to Erik - or KH or the RED community at large.

It MAY be possible to create a mount that fits both the actual mount AND the required contacts in front of the adjuster, but anybody that adds up the simple FFD numbers knows that it would be VERY tight and the most logical design is to simply remove the whole mount since there isn't really any more dangerous exposure of the cable or the sensor. I and others have asked repeatedly for reasoning on this, since there are several easy solutions to taking care of the i/cable, if that is the concern. And it seems like it needs to be more than just "we're not comfortable with it" as it also has implications for KH FD mount, IMS, etc. as well as there might be good reasons to pull the mount occasionally even if you are not switching mounts. Aside from some mounts with stuck screws it is really pretty easy to remove either just the pl or the whole mount. Because we had the stuck screws we have had it apart in multiple ways and there is even an easy procedure for getting the "stuck screw" pl's off safely.

I quickly read Jay's posts and he makes a bunch of good points, but the warranty thing may need some clarification. I don't think Birger or anyone really wants to void the warranty, nor does anyone with good sense think RED should pay for install or electronic design mistakes. If electronic plug in to the REDONE is the concern it is fully understandable that RED needs to really evaluate that more over time before they can sign off on it. For those that can't wait that could be easily overcome in the interim by powering the mount with a separate battery. But it seems like the kicker is the mount removal issue and I think all of us - smart EF/Nikon, IMS, and just regular RED owners would like some focus on that issue because it would clear up a lot.


It is obvious that there is some tension between Erik and Red, and as a RED customer, I think that that is a shame. ...

.... But Erik (like Red) sort of did some forging through unchartered waters, and, like RED deserves a little love. Would anyone else be trying it if they didn't see the intense desire for this product through the work that Erik is doing? I give him alot of credit, and I'll buy his product if it stands up.

Doc makes some good points.

Jim: If there is a problem between Birger and RED, I don't want it to destroy my relationship with Jarred and you. I just want fairness for all and a working smart mount soon. After I loaned Birger my camera for 3 weeks back in January I began following this closely. In the absence of any REDUSER moderator I became sort of the de facto moderator of this thread and have tried to voice the thoughts and concerns of a number of people that have communicated with me both on the board and off, and tried to clarify the issues for all.

As Jarred said to me "I dont mean to call you out man... you know we love you, ..." and I might add we love your camera. Hundreds of us have been waiting many months for this, and for some of us time is running out to do projects that REQUIRE the smart mount. I know you've been busy (and a little worn out) with build 16. And I have had a LOT more time to think about this mount so I hope as things settle down over there you will consider my/our proposals regarding removing the WHOLE mount and either agree or give us your always insightful reasons as to why not.

[Thor Wixom]

Jim seems happy.

Jarred seems happy.

Erik seems happy.

I'm happy.

-Thor

[percy fung]

Any view on the BNCR mount by Visual Product

[George A.]

No, but I'm using the BNCR mount made by Doug.

I would definitely recommend it! Solid, well-built, excellent unit. It costs only $500, but you have to find your own spare BNCR camera mount (you can get them on eBay from time to time).

Doug is a great guy so, all in all, I say definitely look into it if you want a BNCR mount on your RED.

[Victor Noir]

What are people doing about having their lenses geared?

Since it's been made public that there are multiple entities pursuing the fabled EF mount, are there also entities anyone knows of (and would recommend) which provide gearing solutions (temporary or permanent) for follow focus attachment....

It seems once we're all done staring at, and salivating over, our EF mounts, that will be the next question on many minds... or at least mine.

Redrock Micro comes to mind... others?

[Joe Vinson]

I hope we don't have to duplicate everything between this thread and The Other Thread, but in case Jim reads this one more thoroughly, this one is worth repeating:


Jim, I reread my email to our common customers from last week, and I must say am disappointed with some of my choices. I could have communicated what I needed to without being disrespectful to you or your company. I thank you for stating publicly that you are comitted to working with my company despite the lack of respect that I showed you. You did not ask for an apology, but I feel, rightfully deserve one. I am truly sorry.

[Thom Steinhoff]

What are people doing about having their lenses geared?

Since it's been made public that there are multiple entities pursuing the fabled EF mount, are there also entities anyone knows of (and would recommend) which provide gearing solutions (temporary or permanent) for follow focus attachment....

It seems once we're all done staring at, and salivating over, our EF mounts, that will be the next question on many minds... or at least mine.

Redrock Micro comes to mind... others?

Just in case you missed something with the Birger mount, the mount controls the focus and iris electronically through a teathered cable or a wireless bluetooth remote making gearing the lens unnecessary--that's why we are so excited for it to come into being.

The only gearing you would need to do would be for the zoom if you want that on a knob or for the eventual breathing compensation.

[Meryem Ersoz]

Well, in all fairness... how many third-party companies have their products in the official RED store?

It seems to me that speaks very favorably about ET's products, doesn't it? About the trust that the two companies have built? I *want* that kind of assurance backing the product that I buy, not this series of lapsed communications and blatant indifference towards customer care that has characterized the Birger saga.

I've ordered 3 rounds of ET products for my cameras. ET processes orders. ET returns phone calls. ET rolls out new products. What is not to like?

If we weren't all so desperate for a Canon mount, we would have *never ever ever* put up with the kind of customer service that Erik has provided. Since it appeared to be a monopoly product, we were held hostage to a very uncertain and uncomfortable process.

I understand that this product development is revolutionary and a game-changer and all of that -- but other companies are doing the same damn thing, Redrock with its mattebox, Viewfactor with its follow focus and Mirus, Action-cam with its RED steady rig...the list goes on and on.

These are all small companies made up of a handful of folks. I've had dealings and transactions with many of them, and bar none, this has been, by far, the WORST.

I have already cancelled my order via e-mail, before this thread ever posted. I'm sure that it will take as long to get my refund as it took to get my order confirmed. If it ever arrives at all.

I am not happy about any of this -- if I had known sooner that ET was working on this, I wouldn't have wasted a millisecond of energy hoping and wishing and chasing after the Birger mount.

I saw the Birger prototype at NAB, and it looks great. But it is not enough to build a revolutionary product, you still have to serve the damn customers!!!!!!!!! Those nagging irritants who help you to pay your bills....

For real customer service and for the quality of the products that ET brings to market, I'd rather pay up and sleep well at night.

[Victor Noir]

Thom,

Actually, i wasn't really speaking about the Birger... and while I did know it controls iris functions (the missing link with EF for so long) I would still want to be able to control focus manually anyway.

What, for example, are the P+S Technik'ers going to do along these lines?

[Eddie]

To each his own...

if you think that ET has a working 1500$ smart mount comming up in a month or two thats your bet.

In my book Erik is a milestone, however open development was not a good choice for him, since nobody has any idea about the technology he is applying and just "want something that works, NOW!".

The whole birger thread is one big "where is it?" "how long?" "why didn´t you pick up the phone!" "i sent you an email, asking why it isn´t available, why didn´t you respond?" "... but you promised"
Complaints are not really constructive developement and I´d suggest all the complainers contemplate that Erik will actually be delivering a high-tech industry-changing third-party accesory to a camera which is still more or less in beta. how is this comparable to a cheap mattebox or a 900$ dovetail?

[Michael Hastings]

...

I've ordered 3 rounds of ET products for my cameras. ET processes orders. ET returns phone calls. ET rolls out new products. What is not to like?

RE Birger "... I'm sure that it will take as long to get my refund as it took to get my order confirmed. If it ever arrives at all. ..."



Easy... I like ET and their products too but truthfully this is a little different and we "ain't SEEN nothin' yet".

Also, Birger's previous market was government/industrial/scientific where purchase orders, long lead times, and minimal interaction is the norm. ET's been in this market a long time and knows a little better how to deal with it. In fairness, the change in the PL mount AFTER Birger took orders was a significant alteration/setback yet Erik had to go through the delay/redesign in full, unrelenting public view. Whatever ET has done, they got to do with full knowledge of the other developments AND without ANY public pressure.

I have confidence in ET and look forward to it - I know a few of my customers will choose ET for sure and if it's price/performance is better I may get one too. Many of your points about birger are well taken but some of it is over the top. Criticize Birger all you want for the inability to handhold 200 customers through the delays - I'm sure Erik would accept that. But Birger has always offered the refund and only a few canceled and there has never been ANY indication of a problem with that, so I think to impugn his financial integrity is unfair, and given no evidence, inappropriate on this forum.


I would still want to be able to control focus manually anyway.



Victor, I think you are missing one of the keys. Manual focus on EF lenses typically isn't very smooth BECAUSE of the motors and they have very short focus throw, so no matter what gearing you do it isn't likely to be very slick. ANY (ET, Birger, whatever) smart mount offers the ability to increase focus throw to 360 degrees (or more) and can be very smooth as Birger demonstrated at NAB. That's the other half of why we are all so excited/anxious. Iris control AND a free and smoother follow focus.

[Victor Noir]

Aqua V...

Ahhhhhh, the light dawns... Yeah, I had not looked at it from that perspective--thanks for the clarification and the clue-in.

Okay, then... that makes a lot of sense--for the "Birger-ites" (among whom i count myself) but what about the "Technik-ians" (to whom I also pledge allegiance)?

[Meryem Ersoz]

and Mike, though I have nothing but respect for you and your wisdom throughout the process, you understate the problems. Handholding! Who expected handholding??

If you characterize waiting 7 months for a response "handholding," then it is simply a matter that you and I have very different opinions about what constitutes either customer service or "handholding" -- tomato, tomahto.

To say that there is "no evidence" to support what I said is simply untrue. It took 7 months and 3 separate efforts on my part to have my order confirmed. Is that part of the handholding process? If Erik refunds my money within the next 30 days from my original request, I'll be very surprised.

I'll tell you what, if he actually does it, I'd be happy to report back on how conscientiously he performed and give him the props that he would be due. I'd be more than happy to be the one who is shown to be wrong in this matter, and I'll properly and publicly, and without reservation, give him credit where it's due. I will apologize for harboring these doubts.

You're right that ET has not shown us the goods, but at this point, I am content to wait and see how it all plays out before putting money on any of these options. My lenses aren't going anywhere!

(they're especially not going on my RED any time soon, sadly!)

[Michael Hastings]

OK. Not trying to start a fight.

Going back to my solvent fumes now. :biggrin: (see post on other thread)

[Thor Wixom]

Erik has gotten MUCH better with communication and customer service. He is growing as a person and as a businessman.

I have faith in him and his product.

-Thor

[Antoine Fabi]

Well,

I bought a KMuse Canon FD mount because Kevin did a tremendous effort to make it available as soon as we received the first cameras.

I also have a Nikon mount i bought from Doug which is also great, and i can say in all honesty that the KMuse Canon FD mount is no problem and no danger for the RED. Never had a problem.

As i understand things, a Canon FD mount can't be installed in front of the adjustable RED PL mount because the distance between a FD lense and the sensor is shorter than other lenses, so you'd need an optical adaptor (bad image quality) to ..so i am surprised it is not listed...

thanks Kevin!
I really appreciate your efforts to make the still lenses affordable to us as soon as we received our cameras.

Antoine

[Steve Sanacore]

In the past, we assumed too much... not anymore.

Jim

Yup, like Chuck Yeager always said about flying.... there is no substitute for experience.

[Andrew M.]

Birger has a lot of experience exactly in the field that is required to build electronic mount with remote control.
Especially the possibility to compensate for still lenses problems via electronic compensation is the killer. It turns your $800 lenses in to $20,000 one.

Engineers are known to have bad communication skills and if you want to get in to the bad relationship with your clients let your engineers to talk to them.
Result guarantied.

ET has good set of products, but it may take long time before we will see something near the functionality of Birger mount. Plus Birger mount is already there, we just had bad luck with first 3 of them. Too bad that he didn’t send the first one to me for testing.

[Steve Sanacore]

All I want is a Canon mount that lets me adjust the aperture. I don't need electronic focus or zoom etc. I think it's great that he is trying to implement all those features, but aperture adjustment is the most important to me.

[Andrew M.]

And what you do when you change the DOF and your subject in the background will grow like a mushroom after rain?

Remember Canon lenses are still photo lenses so some are breathing like a dragon.

Electronic circuitry can zoom in a bit or zoom out to automatically compensate for the breathing.

You can store profile of the lenses in the Birger mount and as soon as you install a new lens, the smart mount will apply the correction according to the pre defined curve for this particular lens.

I think it is on the Erik's route map as he mentioned it somewhere here.

[Steve Sanacore]

And what you do when you change the DOF and your subject in the background will grow like a mushroom after rain?

Remember Canon lenses are still photo lenses so some are breathing like a dragon.

Electronic circuitry can zoom in a bit or zoom out to automatically compensate for the breathing.

You can store profile of the lenses in the Birger mount and as soon as you install a new lens, the smart mount will apply the correction according to the pre defined curve for this particular lens.

I think it is on the Erik's route map as he mentioned it somewhere here.

How and why would I change the DOF during a shot? Not sure I understand. If you are saying that when you pull focus it breathes, that I can understand would be a problem. I met with Erik at NAB and we used my 16-35 on his mount and it looked great, but we didn't put it through the tests you are referring too. My use for my Canon lenses on RED would be for personal work and I always thought I would go with rented PL lenses on a normal budget shoot.

I am a bit skeptical that they can program a mount to compensate for so many optical idiosyncrasies, if they can - great for us all.

And my request for only an aperture control was only to have a simple working solution now instead of months down the road.....

[Jason Sinclair]

Well thats the great thing about the birger. It is upgradable in many ways. That is just the beginning what you can do with it...

[Roberto B]

Jim seems happy.

Jarred seems happy.

Erik seems happy.

I'm happy.

-Thorpost of the week.. above all that < seems > part.. :) or the third line then.. :huh:

[Dallas Zhen]

I am interested to see if RED can install the Canon mount for us, like does the Nikon RED mount. That is the way to get things more ensured.

[Andrew M.]

How and why would I change the DOF during a shot? Not sure I understand. If you are saying that when you pull focus it breathes, that I can understand would be a problem. I met with Erik at NAB and we used my 16-35 on his mount and it looked great, but we didn't put it through the tests you are referring too. My use for my Canon lenses on RED would be for personal work and I always thought I would go with rented PL lenses on a normal budget shoot.

I am a bit skeptical that they can program a mount to compensate for so many optical idiosyncrasies, if they can - great for us all.

And my request for only an aperture control was only to have a simple working solution now instead of months down the road.....

Yes, I refer to breathing when you pull focus.

Still camera lenses are not optimised for breathing, that is understandable since when you change the focal plane from one object to another you are not recording the movie.

Once you set the focal plane for still photography you don't move it till you take the single picture.

With RED you are shooting many pictures per second so when you have to jump from one object in far focal plane to the other object in your frame, closer to the camera, the picture in the background expands on most lenses, except of some very expensive cine lenses and this ones are not perfect anyway.

The way to avoid this expansion of the objects while changing focus, is to zoom out a bit when changing the focal plane like this. You can pre program it on Birger mount right now for particular shot, and by pressing two buttons, one for pre-programmed change of focus and the second for pre programmed change of zoom you can cancel breathing completely. This programming will work now only with particular shot using dynamic ramp slope programming on Birger mount.

In the future Erik said he will try to set the internal table or he could make it user programmable one in simplest form, so once you select the lenses that you want to install on the mount for the shot and you start changing the focus, the Birger mount will automatically change the zoom a bit to compensate for the breathing.

Basically you will not have any breathing at all, zero!

Only top end cine lenses like 20K+ do not have (almost) any breathing.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Still didn't give up an idea about putting IMS Canon EF adapter and Birger EF together.

Just to have opportunity to swap lenses easy between PL and Canon EF in a couple of seconds.

http://redmodz.com/images/newsimages/birger/birger2.jpg
Birger's Canon EF mount

http://www.pstechnik.de/images/Order%20Info/18382_Canon-EF-Mount.jpg
P+S Technik's IMS Canon EF dumb mount.

[Jason Sinclair]

we may not have a choice on that... and maybe an ideal outcome...

[Joe Vinson]

Still didn't give up an idea about putting IMS Canon EF adapter and Birger EF together.

Just to have opportunity to swap lenses easy between PL and Canon EF in a couple of seconds.

That's great and all, but it will almost certainly require a hardware modification, so please... wait till he ships me my mount, knob and Bluetooth remote.

[Harmonica]

That's great and all, but it will almost certainly require a hardware modification, so please... wait till he ships me my mount, knob and Bluetooth remote.

Amen, brother. These mounts needed to ship months ago. Another modification would be unbearable. Maybe Erik could offer a P+S upgrade down the line.

[Jason Sinclair]

we may not have much choice on that...

[Roberto B]

here..


Still didn't give up an idea about putting IMS Canon EF adapter and Birger EF together.

Just to have opportunity to swap lenses easy between PL and Canon EF in a couple of seconds.



we are not only 50% with you.. beyond 51%.. 100% indeed.




http://redmodz.com/images/newsimages/birger/birger2.jpg
Birger's Canon EF mount

http://www.pstechnik.de/images/Order%20Info/18382_Canon-EF-Mount.jpg
P+S Technik's IMS Canon EF dumb mount.

[Joe Vinson]

The way to avoid this expansion of the objects while changing focus, is to zoom out a bit when changing the focal plane like this. You can pre program it on Birger mount right now for particular shot, and by pressing two buttons, one for pre-programmed change of focus and the second for pre programmed change of zoom you can cancel breathing completely. This programming will work now only with particular shot using dynamic ramp slope programming on Birger mount.

In the future Erik said he will try to set the internal table or he could make it user programmable one in simplest form, so once you select the lenses that you want to install on the mount for the shot and you start changing the focus, the Birger mount will automatically change the zoom a bit to compensate for the breathing.

Basically you will not have any breathing at all, zero!

Er, just to avoid some confusion, it's my understanding that the "breathing compensation" feature has been talked about as something that might be technically possible somewhere down the line, but you make it sound like it will be ready to go out of the box. For one thing, you would need an add-on geared lens motor, since there are no internal motors for components for zoom in SLR lenses. For another thing, Erik still has knobs, remotes and Nikon mounts to design, and by the time all that gets done, humans will have evolved to control focus with our minds. :tongue:

Honestly, I've never thought we'd see breathing compensation come to fruition for several reasons: Many Canon still lenses (especially the L-series, I've heard) have decent, almost negligible breathing.
It would take a monumental effort to time the zoom and focus just right. Even a small discrepancy would be jarring and much more distracting that breathing alone.
Lots of folks don't care that much about breathing, and you can get a pretty good fix with a simple scale in post.

[Andrew M.]

It is very difficult to figure out rump up scale change in post if focus was driven manually.
Once both are done electronically and you know the slope of change it is much easier to do.

Did you try to compensate in post for it? Try it, if focus was driven by hand without known rate of change it is very tricky.

Also if you have any patterns or sharp adages in the frame the slow scaling in post produces this ugly artefacts cavitations or I call it edge rolling effect.
Breathing of most Canon DLSR lenses is unacceptable for big screen without correction, but for HD material with a bit of zoom help it may look quite professional.
Sure nothing beats electronic compensation or you have to pay $$.$$$ to get cine lenses.

[Thor Wixom]

I did some tests on breathing with the popular Canon zooms, and I posted the results. This was a while ago.

I shot them through a Brevis adapter to an HVX200.

I'll dig up the post if anyone is interested.

-Thor

[Joe Vinson]

I did some tests on breathing with the popular Canon zooms, and I posted the results. This was a while ago.

I shot them through a Brevis adapter to an HVX200.

I'll dig up the post if anyone is interested.

-Thor

Here's the thread. (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7463)

Thanks for putting that together, Thor. I think the Canon SLRs handle themselves pretty well, especially for being zooms. (Might want to shy away from the higher focal lengths, though.) The L-series primes should be even better.

[Johnny Friday]

Someone said it earlier in a post and just wanted to reiterate my experience with ET. Bought many of their products and met both Stephen and Hector. They delivered every time on time. And only one item i DON'T have is their new cheese stick---Having full trust in these guys i paid in advance---AND was told that it would not be complete for a while......what I like about ET is that they give you a timetable and then follow through with it.

I've made numerous phone calls to ET and EVERY time they pick up the phone---and yes, they are a small shop and I think Stephen spends a great deal of his day just seeing customers at the shop and talking to us on the phone.

Can't say enough about this company's work ethic and CUSTOMER SERVICE---and of course the QUALITY products they make.

Good luck ET.....

[Meryem Ersoz]

True to their word, Birger has cancelled my order and promised to deliver a refund next week. Thank you, Erik and Amy, for your prompt response, and I apologize if I mis-characterized your operation, in its current incarnation. Thor is correct that you have made great strides in the customer service department, since the beginning.

If the tide turns in your favor and the early adopters show the results that we all long for with the mount, the lenses, and RED, then the one other thing that will restore my faith in possibly renewing my order is this level of customer service--fast, efficient, and reliable. I wish you both the best and hope that this works in you favor.

[David Nardini]

Electronic circuitry can zoom in a bit or zoom out to automatically compensate for the breathing ...

How so ? Zoom control on Canon lenses is manual only ...


And my request for only an aperture control was only to have a simple working solution now instead of months down the road.....

101% agree with you ... by now we could have been working with v1, could have sorted all this mount stuff, Erik could have some $ in the bank, and the 'clever' stuff could be part of the v2 mount, for those that want all the wizzz bang stuff ...

[ericyoung]

How so ? Zoom control on Canon lenses is manual only...

Viewfactor has some future expansion socketry which they have mentioned. It could possibly be driven by Birger to drive a zoom motor to drive the zoom ring (clamp on drive ring obviously required).

[Andrew M.]

You are forgetting that Birger has long history with Canon mount to C-mount driven by RS232 port from laptop.

http://www.birger.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=ef232_home

Laptop since few years could be used to drive Birger mount. You have access to all commands and you can design your own slopes and dependency between zoom, aperture and focus.
When the idea of incorporating laptop design in to the internal limited feature dedicated mount raised here on this forum Birger had 85% of the mount done. He just had to gather all bits and pieces he had for laptop driven Canon mount and squeeze it in to the firmware based control.

So the actual work on Birger Canon mount is not just several month or so , it is more like 3 years of experience.

[David Nardini]

You are forgetting that Birger has long history with Canon mount to C-mount driven by RS232 port from laptop.

http://www.birger.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=ef232_home

Laptop since few years could be used to drive Birger mount. You have access to all commands and you can design your own slopes and dependency between zoom, aperture and focus.
When the idea of incorporating laptop design in to the internal limited feature dedicated mount raised here on this forum Birger had 85% of the mount done. He just had to gather all bits and pieces he had for laptop driven Canon mount and squeeze it in to the firmware based control.

So the actual work on Birger Canon mount is not just several month or so , it is more like 3 years of experience.

I hear you ... and yes, RS232 driven 'clever stuff' may indeed be the case. The fact still remains that we are 3 + 1 year down the line and we still cannot control the most basic of things ... Canon EF aperture ! on a RED, let alone the rest.

I cannot help but think that some folk are trying to run before they can walk ... :sad:

[Michael Hastings]

I think the core of Andrew's point is that all canon ef lenses have precision motors which constantly feed back precise data on position and that data is already being captured by the Birger EF mount via software that has been in development and use for 6 or 7 years and that opens up all kinds of capabilities, both on the editing/graphics/vfx software side and in add on hardware for breathing compensation, motion control, etc.

run before walk? Yes, but talking about this is better than beating our heads against the wall thinking about those 200 workable mounts sitting on a shelf.

[Peter Majtan]

For me - these are the two ONLY reasons I didn't buy yet the Red One (in order of priority):

A) That fact that I can't put down the $17.5K and get my camera within a week or two... (the dredged wait-list)

B) Availability of Canon mount

I have already requested quote from Birger - and looks like the best option for me right now. Also due to the A) and am not in a hurry for the B). I have my money aside both both... :D

[Andrew M.]

I think the core of Andrew's point is that all canon ef lenses have precision motors which constantly feed back precise data on position and that data is already being captured by the Birger EF mount via software that has been in development and use for 6 or 7 years and that opens up all kinds of capabilities, both on the editing/graphics/vfx software side and in add on hardware for breathing compensation, motion control, etc.

run before walk? Yes, but talking about this is better than beating our heads against the wall thinking about those 200 workable mounts sitting on a shelf.

Precisely, we have working Beta from Birger, not even Alpha or prototype, it is Beta and already shooting out there the features.
I didn't know that they have RS232 Canon since 6-7 years!!
So far there was only one hiccup with power in Birger Beta mount. I was bit surprised since it is very easy part of design but seeing RED screwing up on phantom power almost in the identical way there must be something about these geniuses kids like Erik and whoever designs RED electronics, that they can design 8 core CPUs but when it comes to power they have to ask his father how to do it.
I guess here is digital age, if they could they will make Power Supplies sending ones and zeros instead of current or voltage.


Peter, if you make this stuff for us beautifull we will buy you Birger Canon mount and more, don't wary. You can put just 1,750 as a down for RED.
You don't need the whole amount.

[Peter Majtan]

Andrew - Your stuff will rock - I am sure. I will work on it until it does...

And for me it is not about putting down the deposit. I have already secured business loan for Red-One fully equipped and the upgrade to Epic. But even if I put down ALL the money now - I would still have to wait until next year for the camera. It might just make sense to buy the Epic directly... Our primary cameras are still going to be Scarlets. The Epic will be only used for VIP commercials and special client request. Not a everyday workhorse...

[Andrew M.]

Very smart Peter, get experiance with Scarlet and go all the way to Epic, very smart.

[Jason Sinclair]

it would be good to see an open statement from et on their plans, timelines, approx costs etc just to cull the speculation...

[Prem Edpuganti]

when you have to jump from one object in far focal plane to the other object in your frame, closer to the camera, the picture in the background expands on most lenses

Andrew:

I am trying to understand what breathing is. In some other post I read it as the inhaling or exhaling of barrel as the elements are moved for focus or zoom. I never understood why it is bad except for cleanliness and protection. Can you please confirm what lens breathing generally refers to.

Thanks.

[Joe Vinson]

Can you please confirm what lens breathing generally refers to.

For the purposes of our discussion, it's the slight 'zoom' effect that happens when a lens changes focus, generally considered a negative thing. Most noticeable during static rack focus shots. Many cinema lenses are engineered at great expense to minimize breathing. SLR lenses, being designed for still photography, tend to breath more.

[Aron Cohen]

i thought it was when you pull focus it zooms a tiny bit in and out. as far as i know it's told to be a big problem with lenses in cinematography and video production, but when it comes to photography, i personally never find it annoying because you can zoom a bit in or out.

[Ryan Sims]

Trust me. Breathing is Bad. An AC is constantly adjusting for focus in every shot. If the Actor moves an inch, the AC adjusts the lens. Any zooming in and out will be distracting. If you think breathing is OK, you have never worked as or with a real AC(assistant cameraman).

[jbeale]

In fact I never have worked as an AC, but is the situation really so "black and white" as you suggest? I believe many of the older PL-mount lenses do have some visible breathing, do they not?

[Ryan Sims]

No, many lenses breath to some extent, including some very new ones.
You would rather they didn't on a narrative film shoot. That's why people pay $$$$$$$ for Cooke and Zeiss for feature film productions. For music videos or weddings, it would not be a big deal.

[Harmonica]

I'm considering cancelling my Birger order. Has any info come out about the Element Technica smart mount?

[Joe G.]

1. Because of the overscanning of the sensor, can't the breathing be fixed in post very easily and very accurately?

It seems like a couple of minutes in After Effects if the breathing is notieceable.

2. Someone complained that Zeiss lenses were also breathing, and more so than a Nikon slr lense. I don't know the make and model, but isn't a little breathing considered acceptable? Do audiences even notice?

Given option 1, I think I'll save the $345,000, at least for my first attempts...

[Jason Sinclair]

yea fix it in post..... thats the spirit.

[Michael Hastings]

I'm considering cancelling my Birger order. Has any info come out about the Element Technica smart mount?

Next week.:biggrin: JK

[Alexander Christ]

...post of the day! :-)

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

I will be in contact with current owner's to explain what can be done (and what the performance limitations are) working within the constraints of the adjustable PL mount. I am sure we will come up with something that will meet everyone's requirements.

Not to worry, we will support all customers who have our mount. We have been manufacturing products for over 20 years (and I have been in manufacturing for over 30) so we won't disappear just because we discontinued one product.

For those that have given their words of encouragement I thank each and every one of you.

Good shooting everyone,

Kevin

Kevin i am sorry for this we have supported you too much from early begining

Since first time that you have declared about the mount

i am from the first people who had pay for it .

You know that i have received my mount with missing ( Spring )..it is only a spring

Edit : i have contacted kevin and he promissed to send it soon , i hope so

[Martin Weiss]

can't the breathing be fixed in post very easily and very accurately?

Unfortunately, no.

Since a proper focus pull accelerates and decelerates at an unknown speed, and probably does some minor speed changes along the way, it is not a speedy process at all. The end result will probably look even weirder, as there will be some positive and negative breathing compensation.

There are some rumors that the Birger mount might (and I have to stress the might) internally compensate for breathing. Now that would be not just great, but amazingly awesome.

[Tico Llaurador]

Bassam, my emails to Kevin have gone unanswered as well. Even as recently as yesterday. And, by the way, I don't have iris control on my Muse Electronics Canon FD mount either. Had to physically alter my FD lenses so they are in permanent "stopped down" mode now.

Seems to me like the only fully working third-party mount right now is Underdahl's modded RED Nikon F mount.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

send him email now at

kevin@museelectronics.com

[Tico Llaurador]

Bassam, Kevin is a great guy and has been very responsive in the past. He must be too busy or something.

I actually wrote him to see if there is a way to modify my Canon FD mount to take Leica R lenses instead. That's when I decided that the real solution to my problems lies in the P+S Technik IMS mount, VFS Impero and Inclino solution.

Still, I wanted to see if Kevin's mount could be converted to a Leica R mount, to use between now and when I get the other stuff.

[Michael Hastings]

Unfortunately, no.

Since a proper focus pull accelerates and decelerates at an unknown speed, and probably does some minor speed changes along the way, it is not a speedy process at all. The end result will probably look even weirder, as there will be some positive and negative breathing compensation.

There are some rumors that the Birger mount might (and I have to stress the might) internally compensate for breathing. Now that would be not just great, but amazingly awesome.

Breathing compensation on birger would be in conjunction with a separate zoom motor and ONLY be possible with zooms. The idea is that since EF lenses give precise focus and zoom position data to the mount it would be possible to have the software control the zoom motor to precisely (slightly) zoom to offset the known breathing characteristics of a particular zoom lens.

BTW the info would also make it much easier for a software post solution as well.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

Bassam, Kevin is a great guy and has been very responsive in the past. He must be too busy or something.

I actually wrote him to see if there is a way to modify my Canon FD mount to take Leica R lenses instead. That's when I decided that the real solution to my problems lies in the P+S Technik IMS mount, VFS Impero and Inclino solution.

Still, I wanted to see if Kevin's mount could be converted to a Leica R mount, to use between now and when I get the other stuff.

i hope he will reply you , i only need the missing thing . i don't want to modify or anything ealse ..

[Martin Weiss]

Is the ET mount still in the pipeline?

It seems that Birger starts shipping next week, thus the ET would need to have some killer features that Eric hasn't thought of. Or a killer price?

[Shawn Bannon]

ET is working on the mount. The one advantage they'll have is they'll be RED CERTIFIED. the disadvantage is they'll start shipping later maybe much later.

[Meryem Ersoz]

Is the ET mount still in the pipeline?

It seems that Birger starts shipping next week, thus the ET would need to have some killer features that Eric hasn't thought of. Or a killer price?

Glad to hear that ET is on it. Two things that I would be patient for:

1 - ease of interchangeability
2 - ET's very good customer service

After all the drama, I'm content to watch these developments. If Birger proves to be as good as the prototype looked at NAB, and if the noise about repairs and warranties and follow-up service is minimal, I'd re-up my order. Competition is a good thing.

[Peter Majtan]

Is the ET mount still in the pipeline?

It seems that Birger starts shipping next week, thus the ET would need to have some killer features that Eric hasn't thought of. Or a killer price?

How do I get in touch with Eric? I tried the website (no luck...) and e-mail too... He doesn't seam to come here that often either... :waaa:

I hope I can get his mount - I liked what I have seen - even if it meant to void my warranty I dare to say... But I hope he gets things sorted out with RED... :w00t:


We continue to work with Birger to get that mount compatible with our system. I am sure we will get there.

Or am I asking too much?

[paul engstrom]

I'm pretty sure it's sorted now--RED approved the latest version of the Birger mount so that RED's warranty will remain intact.

p

[Peter Majtan]

So how do I get in touch with Erik regarding pricing, delivery times, etc... ?

[Jason Sinclair]

See the Birger thread under lens tests. All answers as far as Erik knows are there.

[Peter Majtan]

Thanks...

[Erik Widding]

There is now a link on our home page to the assembly documents and the new order form. Delivery of a Canon Mount and Knobs is about 4 weeks for new orders.