Native Red support...

[david farland]

Love to hear what applications may provide native redcode support...

FCP
.....not yet..could be a while but they can ingest via their HD I/O box, 10bit 4:2:2 and have it compressed to ProRes. I guess they can also transcodes from Redcode to ProRes as well.

CINEFORM
...don't see any comments on RED on their page...umm

AVID
.......Nothing yet!

any Onlines?

...Assimilate?

Cheers,

[Cail Young]

According to Ted, FCP6 will let you drop REDCODE into a timeline and start cutting.

[david farland]

Sure...dropping into timeline....what's under the bonnet of that!

we don't know the details....

word is no native support yet...transcode....how severe, don't know.
Lot's unknown...


Cheers,

[hunabku]

Does anyone know if Red entered into a special agreement with Apple?

If I were Apple I would pay Red for the exclusive right to use red code for a specific amount of time so as to sell final cut mac based solutions.

[PaulClements]

Doubtful since RedCine is XP based too. That'd make the work done on windows XP redundant. Red want to open up the market not pigeon hole it.

[Dominic Jones]

Sure...dropping into timeline....what's under the bonnet of that!

we don't know the details....

word is no native support yet...transcode....how severe, don't know.
Lot's unknown...


Cheers,
From that interview, certainly no transcode, and RT operation on at least a well enough spec'd machine - what's well enough spec'd?? Well, that's the question, isn't is?! I'd bet less than the new 8-cores though, and depending on number of streams maybe even as low as a high-end dual core box.

I guess we'll see....


Word, however, is certainly not no native support yet - word is definitely native FCP6 support. :biggrin:

[david farland]

Shaun mentions it here (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1595) for one...too tired to hunt them down


....... I then saw Evin give a great presenation on RedCine workflow. One disappointment is that FCP 6 will NOT ship with native Redcode support, that will come sometime later.....
-Shawn

Cheers,

[Cail Young]

That sentence should read "FCP 6 will not SHIP with native Redcode support" - there is an interview with Ted on hdforindies where he describes the way that the native support that will eventually be there - the decode process can pull a lower resolution version out of the compressed data without any scaling overhead (essentially, it's trivial to simply decode only every 8th pixel, or 16th, etc) meaning you can edit on proxies without actually having to generate them.

[Dominic Jones]

Ah, sorry - that's my bad then! I'm going from the Ted Schilowitz interview from yesterday, which sounded a lot like it was a done deal - I guess with the speed things are moving today that might as well be 5 year old information though...

Native RedCode support in FCP "soon" then, I take it?

[MDP16]

What I got from the Red Cine Demo was that they were using a Beta Version of FCP that fully supported 4k directly on the timeline in its native format. That said it looked like it was working just fine to me.

[J. Bernard Vallon]

Since FCP has always been quicktime based, any format that quicktime supports can be cut in FCP. Conversely, any format you want FCP to support is dependent on quicktime.

Even if I don't have FCP6 yet, i should be able to export out of REDCine into Prores422 as long as I have the most recent version of quicktime pro installed. This, in my mind is a great way to deliver to clients if i'm working on a low budget flick, because all they need is FCS2, which is pretty cheap, and will run on a G5.

This way they dont have to upgrade more than there software, and its a $600 upgrade at that.

Any thoughts?

[david farland]

John,
I wouldn't have a clue!
Quicktime is just a container (for easy handling) that holds a video/audio streams that's compressed using one of the codecs in quicktime's api. Does Quicktime 7 or FCP host the Redcode codec....not yet!

So for now it's a codec translation from Redcode compressed data to a codec native to FCP. In this case to get 10bit 4:2:2 2K, Apple are saying use ProRes. What type of codec is it? Probably find out on a FCP forum e.g. Creative Cow or maybe someone here!
What's the translation process from a Redcode codec to ProRes...dunno. I know Ted Schilo. was talking about 1/2; 1/4; 1/8 rez's of Redcode but what that means in regards to ProRes...dunno.

I'm presuming that ProRes will become your master for onlining here also!

If not and you create some kind of EDL/XML conform file, it may not matter...not sure...cos I haven't offlined/onlined with FCP and don't know if there's some foibles I've gotta be careful of!
If you do the transformation how robust is the resultant PRoRes master to CC'ing etc....you guessed...dunno.

Hope what I said is reasonably correct. Please pull me up if it's not.

Hopefully i'm looking 'correctly' under the hood of the "If it's QT compliant, it's alright" paradigm/fallicy.

Cheers,

[Deanan]

Redcode works as RT in FCP6.
There's also RedRad for ingest (and optionally transcoding via a batch process). Lastly, there's an FCP fxplug that enable look development
that's compatible with RedCine and the in camera look settings.

FYI, "Crossing the Line" was cut via REDCODE natively in FCP 5.1 (with no transcoding). The same files were then used to generate the
full 4k frames to go into grading.

Deanan

[Damien Molineaux]

Redcode works as RT in FCP6.
There's also RedRad for ingest (and optionally transcoding via a batch process). Lastly, there's an FCP fxplug that enable look development
that's compatible with RedCine and the in camera look settings.

FYI, "Crossing the Line" was cut via REDCODE natively in FCP 5.1 (with no transcoding). The same files were then used to generate the
full 4k frames to go into grading.

Deanan

Amazing !!!

Thanks Deanan.

The FCP native support made my day, week, month, year, and maybe more !

Cheers,
Damien

[Damien Molineaux]

David,

You may not have seen this on Apple's website :
http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/action/?movie=red

If that's not Redcode support...

Cheers for Apple, and Ted, and Deanan, YEEHA !
Damien

[sebbo]

The UI looks pretty much like assimilate scratch :)

[david farland]

Redcode works as RT in FCP6. Deanan
Realtime..okay

There's also RedRad for ingest (and optionally transcoding via a batch process). Deanan
..Is this some of the code behind Red's RPL?



Lastly, there's an FCP fxplug that enable look development
that's compatible with RedCine and the in camera look settings.Deanan does this work in parallel with color calibration software like Cinespace for FCC.

Note: Can FCC mean Final Cut Color from here on end?.....Please!!



FYI, "Crossing the Line" was cut via REDCODE natively in FCP 5.1 (with no transcoding). The same files were then used to generate the
full 4k frames to go into grading.
Deanan Is this a beta version of your Redcode plugin/codec/api or whatever is used to pull/ingest Redcode in FCP 6?

Cheers,

[Chester Lehmann]

What about RedCode support for software under WinXP? (AfterFX, PremierePro...) With Quicktime installed, it should work too, no?

[david farland]

David,

You may not have seen this on Apple's website :
http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/action/?movie=red

If that's not Redcode support...

Cheers for Apple, and Ted, and Deanan, YEEHA !
Damien


thanks for that Damien.

I'm sure native red raw is bound for FCP 6 and lots of people are saying it can be done, but I'm hearing toooo many warning bells that it's not in the commercial version presently.
But hey.....maybe when you or other get their Red camera?just dunno....

Sorry if it sounds frustrating but....I'd rather be a wanker saying I dunno than be one that says ...Yep, it can do NOW...or SOON or....who knows....phew

Ask the guys in the Red/Apple booth tomorrow...

Trying to help you

cheers,

[Anders Holck]

There's also RedRad for ingest (and optionally transcoding via a batch process). Deanan

..Is this some of the code behind Red's RPL?

Cheers,

RAD is the fileimport Import window in FCP like Panasonic P2 import.

So in RedRad you do the same but now have the option to transcode to another codec in the process.

[Deanan]

Realtime..okay

..Is this some of the code behind Red's RPL?

Is this a beta version of your Redcode plugin/codec/api or whatever is used to pull/ingest Redcode in FCP 6?

Cheers,

Pull list is totally different from RedRad ingest. RedRad is for
ingest/logging with optionally transcoding. There's an equivalent
RAD workflow for P2 also.

There are two ways to work in FCP:
1) edit native redcode in FCP by the usual file loading process
2) ingest and log clips via RAD and transcode to ProRes, etc. optionally

Rob, Graeme and Ted did an amazing job making the FCP workflow
possible.

Deanan

[Gunleik Groven]

This is what I find the most amaizingly RADical part of all the Red news.

I've been stationg since I heard that Graeme entred the team: Redcode and workflow will probably have an even bigger effect on the industry than the camera itself.

I'll modify this statement slightly, seeing what's going on:
That is, if other vendors survive - which I for one, really hope.

I can see Sony, Panny, and to a certain degree Thompson, not being too hurt by Red, because of their TV systems, but for the Cine-workflow, both high end and indie...

Cheers to Red!

Gunleik

[david farland]

Deanan/Anders,

Thanks very much for your explanations.
Think of me as the guy they wheel it to check if something is foolproof!!

I know the point is academic, as the public don't have Red cameras to produce RedCode, but if they did and I go online and purchase a copy of Final Cut Studio 2, will I be able to edit native redcode as per option 1 of Deanan's post above? My point being if it's commercially launched now...Great. If its going to be included the 'commercial' release of FCP in a month still GREAT.
I don't care that it's 'possible' or not (well I do), I mainly care about when a version is ready for us punters.

Blessing /accolades to ALL the RED team and what you/they're achieved....totally!!!

Gunleik,
I agree....

If RED came up with full offline/online grading/publish system they would KILL the world...Game over. I'd be totally surprised if they're not looking it that.


Cheers,

[Chris Kenny]

Rob, Graeme and Ted did an amazing job making the FCP workflow possible.

Trying to get a handle on the workflow. A few questions:

1) When REDCODE footage gets processed in FCP, what bit depth is used? The current version of FCP is limited to 8-bit in RGB mode. I assume FCP6 working with REDCODE footage won't have this limitation?

2) Since generating RAW footage on a computer doesn't make any sense, what happens when I do something with RAW footage on a timeline that requires rendering? What format are the render files written out in? The RGB version of REDCODE?

3) What's integration like with other apps in the FCP suite? I'm particularly interested in whether, if I have 4K footage on a timeline in FCP, I can still use the FCP/Color integration Apple showed. Color doesn't do 4K. In an ideal world the REDCODE RAW would look like 2K to Color, and Color could process it, render out to 2K REDCODE RGB, and swap that back into the original FCP timeline, where it would play back seamlessly with RAW footage. But that sounds tricky.

4) Along the same lines, what about other QuickTime apps? Can I feed REDCODE RAW straight into Shake, or is support FCP specific?

[David Newman]

CINEFORM
...don't see any comments on RED on their page...umm

We are showing RT 4K editing in our both under CS3, which would be a wink to a RED workflow, both RED hasn't yet opened there doors to us (we weren't grant "permission" to officially announce anything -- other third parties are likely in the same position.) We are certainly an export target for RedCine, but it would nice if Redcine would have a RAW output for a simpler path CineForm RAW. We will re-approach Red for this hook after NAB.

David Newman
CTO, CineForm

[Blaine Golden]

Redcode works as RT in FCP6.
There's also RedRad for ingest (and optionally transcoding via a batch process). Lastly, there's an FCP fxplug that enable look development
that's compatible with RedCine and the in camera look settings.

FYI, "Crossing the Line" was cut via REDCODE natively in FCP 5.1 (with no transcoding). The same files were then used to generate the
full 4k frames to go into grading.

Deanan
This completely blows me away. I can't wait to get my camera and FCS update.

[Rob Lohman]

Trying to get a handle on the workflow. A few questions:

1) When REDCODE footage gets processed in FCP, what bit depth is used? The current version of FCP is limited to 8-bit in RGB mode. I assume FCP6 working with REDCODE footage won't have this limitation?

2) Since generating RAW footage on a computer doesn't make any sense, what happens when I do something with RAW footage on a timeline that requires rendering? What format are the render files written out in? The RGB version of REDCODE?

3) What's integration like with other apps in the FCP suite? I'm particularly interested in whether, if I have 4K footage on a timeline in FCP, I can still use the FCP/Color integration Apple showed. Color doesn't do 4K. In an ideal world the REDCODE RAW would look like 2K to Color, and Color could process it, render out to 2K REDCODE RGB, and swap that back into the original FCP timeline, where it would play back seamlessly with RAW footage. But that sounds tricky.

4) Along the same lines, what about other QuickTime apps? Can I feed REDCODE RAW straight into Shake, or is support FCP specific?

1) YUV 32-bit float (full sampling)

2) REDCODE RGB/YUV or whatever codec you set in the sequence settings / output

3) no answer for you on that yet

[Cail Young]

1) YUV 32-bit float (full sampling)

This is good news - so to confirm, when using REDCODE as your timeline codec; FCP is converting the RAW RGB to YUV 32-bit float without dropping below the original bit depth (which escapes me at the moment) ?

[Anders Holck]

The Recode codec is presenting itself to FCP as a 32-bit float capable YUV codec.
Inside the codec it converts the RGB data back and forth using a lossless conversion.

[Cail Young]

The Recode codec is presenting itself to FCP as a 32-bit float capable YUV codec.
Inside the codec it converts the RGB data back and forth using a lossless conversion.

Lovely!