5 WORST AND 5 BEST Business Decisions

[Joseph Hutson]

I am a young filmmaker(17), and have started my own videography business(link to my website) (http://nearsightedproductions.com).

I went to a business meeting last night, and was told to "ASK QUESTIONS". So here I am. Though you might think your advice is'nt the greatest, I would like to know what some of the best things you did for your business, and the worst.

What would you suggest? FilmSchool? Just make short films on your own? Both? What else?

I think many other people here on RedUser have the same questions, so, thanks for your invaluable advice in advance.

EDIT: I'm now 18, and have learned a lot in the last year and a half, but would still welcome any advice as it would not only be beneficial to me, but for others as well.

[Shawn Booth]

Make shorts as you can. But work on set. Get a freebie job and suffer. Work as a PA a few times on paying gigs. Work your way into a dept. Make shorts on the side. Learn. Apply.

Film school provides a foundation. It's great. I went. But I learned more on set. Sets where I was at the bottom and then worked up.

Be patient with yourself and your career. Work hard. Be honest with your clients and yourself.

Hope that helps.

[Brian Reisdorf]

Something to keep in mind for small businesses like video production that can be run fairly "casually" in the finance dept:

Don't put equipment purchases on a credit card. It can be tempting, especially when you're new and looking at all the cool gear you need to get started. Do the research, understand and apply for small business loans for those kinds of purchases. The last thing you need as a new business is a $15,000 credit card bill that's charging you $500 a month in finance charges (On top of what you pay toward the balance) when you could have got the whole thing for $350 a month.

[Ramesh Jai]

The worst decision I made was starting my own production company (producing and directing mostly TV commercials) right after I left film school.

Yes, I am doing great but I always wished I had joined a bigger advertising company for a year or two.

Not only would I have gained more experience but most important I would have made contacts with all the major companies.

[Fredrik Callinggard]

2 business modules that always seem to apply (but you still have to take them into consideration, of course, to your situation......don't take them literally hahahaha)

It's not hard to make good business, it's hard to say no to bad business.

It's not the strongest that generally wins, it's the fastest.

Now especially the first will apply for you right now. Also, it's all about contacts. The business is more about who you know then how much. So take your time to figure out how to make those contacts. Usually it means to start in the bottom of the business and work your way up. You would be surprised in how fast that ladder is. The learning curve together with the possibilities to climb up is very steep for the one who's really eager, but it takes dedication, dedication and dedication.

As your doing so you need to make sure your keeping up your own creativity. Your own shorts or test commercials etc is a good way for that.


Fredrik

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

5 BEST Scenario:


1. Shoot.

2. Shoot.

3. Shoot.

4. Shoot.

5. Read Filmmaking Tutorials and Forums.


***

5 WORST Scenario:


1. Read Filmmaking Tutorials and Forums.

2. Read Filmmaking Tutorials and Forums.

3. Read Filmmaking Tutorials and Forums.

4. Read Filmmaking Tutorials and Forums.

5. Shoot.


***

:holloween:

[spitfire44]

when I check your website I get re-directed to the Mobile Me site of Apple.
good luck,
Eric

[Drew Mazanec]

Best:

Get experience with shooting. Volunteer. Make connections. Get a steady stream of income from videography work. THEN buy the equipment.

Worst:

Buy the equipment, then try to make money as a videographer.

[Fredrik Callinggard]

when I check your website I get re-directed to the Mobile Me site of Apple.
good luck,
Eric

It's because the mac account is down right now - most probably because they're updating it to mobile me.


fredrik

[Richard Lackey]

I started down the same road you are, only in 2003. I have not been to a film school, but the past five years have been that for me, and probably every year of the rest of my life.

I was just thinking about this today, what I would have done differently.

Looking back, I think I would tell anyone now that video production won't make you rich, it might just break even but more than not you will even run at a loss. It depends on the size of your market, the demand for the services you are offering and your competition.

At the video level, everyone and thier brother and dog thinks they are film makers. Paying gigs will be mostly corporates and margins are extremely thin. You must have something that sets you apart from everyone else you will be pitching against for jobs.

For me this was 3D animation, compositing and VFX that I could add to a foundation of video production and offer people something different. I worked my ass off (literally, I have no ass, but that's also down to not making enough money to eat properly), think seriously overworked and underpaid.

This is the honest truth. God only knows how I am still solvent after five years.

I agree about the debt. Don't get into debt, it can kill you quicker than you think. I wouldn't bother buying anything other than an edit suite to begin with. Cameras and all the other gear you can rent, it's way better to begin with.

First and foremost you need to be a good producer, get to grips with finances, build contacts, be good to people and they will be good to you.

The best thing that has happened to me is the Red One. It has opened more doors than I ever could have imagined. Goodbye video production, hello films and commercials, just like that.

[taleslate]

Pick a market where you would like to live and work and start out working your way up there. If that market is where you live now, great, but don't think you can get experience and contacts in one market and then move to another market and just continue your climb. It's rarely possible to do this easily. More often than not changing markets means going back to square one. You'll still have your knowledge and experience, but without contacts in the new market, you will have to prove yourself all over again. It can be very frustrating to watch people with less knowledge/talent move right past you because they have better contacts than you do. It may seem early to be thinking about this when you're only 17, but believe me, before you know it you will be 10 years into your career and making the leap at that point will be 10 times harder. There is a direct relationship between who you know and where you go, so the contacts you make early on can have a far-reaching impact. Work hard, keep a good attitude, learn set etiquette (lack of which has stunted more than one career) and have fun (after all, you got into the biz because you didn't want to get a "real job":biggrin: )!

[Noah Kadner]

I'd recommend the DV Rebel's Guide- that's probably one of the better how-to books out there:

http://rebelsguide.com/

-Noah

[David Mullen ASC]

As far as learning goes, my technique was:
Watch movies, read about movies that I watched, shoot movies and try out what I learned by reading and watching movies, repeat as often as possible.

Or to put it another way, you need periods of activity and reflectivity, so you can absorb the lessons learned while being active. Generally though you don't have to plan for the periods between work, they just happen naturally!

But as far as a career goes, when I started out, I asked every successful DP how they got there start and I never heard the same story twice. Of course, this was in the 1980's and the DP's I talked to got their start in the 1950's and 60's before film schools were as popular and commonplace. But the lesson learned was that everyone forges their own path through the jungle, there are no roads.

The main advantage to film school was meeting students that would later hire me or connect me to other work after graduation. I got two or three features that way and that got the ball rolling, since one job leads to the next.

But my advice is in regards to becoming a DP for hire, not setting up a production company.

[Richard Lackey]

But my advice is in regards to becoming a DP for hire, not setting up a production company.

Yep, don't do it. If you want to run a successful production company, get yourself an MBA and hire the creative staff you need, stay in the office and make the numbers work. If you want to make movies, don't start a production company (unless you also have an MBA and are independently wealthy, or have some other major financial backing, and perhaps don't need sleep).

[Joseph Hutson]

But my advice is in regards to becoming a DP for hire, not setting up a production company.

So because I want to make movies, and not necessarily be an "event videographer" for the next 10 years, you would suggest me to stop my current business ALTOGETHER?

[Kevin Wild]

Joseph-I think what people are saying, is that being a great craftsman at film & video production is very different from starting and running a full production business. I suggest you get the book "The E-Myth" and the "The E-Myth Revisited" which talk about this extensively. The basic premise of these very educational books is "just because you can bake a great pie, does not mean you can run a business selling great pies."

I've done both (creative side and running a business) and it is not easy and can add a lot of grey hair jumping from left brain to right brain, etc. There are many days I edit for 15 hours and then do 2 hours of billing, invoicing, payroll, etc. Jumping from creative brain to the numbers and back is not as easy as you may think.

To me, the most important advice I could give is to figure out where your passion lies (Sorry for the Oprah-like moment). If it is in filmmaking, do that and do it well...business will come naturally. However, if your ultimate goal is to start a production company, you might consider partnering with someone that knows business...and let them do that side of things.

Just my $.02

Kevin

[Joe Carney]

If you start a production company, get a great entertainment lawyer. Ask around for one that is trustworthy. If all you want to do is create a company for the express purpose of making a movie, even just one, get a great entertainment lawyer. Worth the cost.

[Ed Blythe]

So because I want to make movies, and not necessarily be an "event videographer" for the next 10 years, you would suggest me to stop my current business ALTOGETHER?

You should keep that business if you want to do the things that it does: sports, weddings, TV commercials, LIVE stuff. If you don't want to do those things (and want to make movies) then you should not keep that business. (Unless perhaps you want to spend a few years getting your head around the equipment and meeting a few people, which is not a terrible goal).

One thing I might add to what others have said is that there's no rush, man. You're 17? Cool. How bloody lucky for you that you know what you want to do - but you don't NEED to do it before you're 20. There's a prestigious school in Paris called La Femis. Part of their curriculum requires the students to go out and do an internship at a courthouse, hospital, abattoir, anywhere BUT a film set or a classroom. (See Mullen's comment about action and reflection). I believe the phrase "life experience" is often used at this point.

You wanna make movies = you wanna tell stories. Go get some, from lots of different places, from the mouths of lots of different people (not from the 'net or the media or other movies - get 'em fresh and sticky). Tend a bar, do a season on a fishing boat, earn some dough and travel... Whatever, anything that gets you away from where you are and what you know. Then take that stuff and put it back into your stories. No matter what your interest (DP, director, producer, 2nd 2nd AD) you need to do that, and it will serve you really well on and off set.

I'm lucky enough to be at one of the better schools in the US at the moment and had a lot of different lives before I got here. People who go from high school to college (cinema studies) to a grad degree often struggle a little bit to write about things other than ... movies. Cuz that's what they know. But the more I work on sets (i.e. the more time I am active) the harder I find it to write or pitch or outline. The well runs dry (because I have not spent enough time reflecting, on my experiences or other source material that comes my way).

Anyway, longer more mushy post than I started out writing. And just my 2 cents, man. You know yourself better than we do. Welcome to it 'n' good luck.

[David Mullen ASC]

So because I want to make movies, and not necessarily be an "event videographer" for the next 10 years, you would suggest me to stop my current business ALTOGETHER?

I said that my experience was in regards to becoming a freelance cinematographer, not setting up a production company NOR becoming a feature filmmaker, so I'm not sure what exactly you are responding to...

I have no useful advice to give whatsoever on the merits or pitfalls of setting up your own company because I've never done it. Nor have I ever made a feature film as a director, I've only shot them as a cinematographer for hire. And all I was doing was relating my own particular path to becoming a DP. As I said in my post, the only thing I've learned is that everyone finds their own way.

Everyone has to find a way of supporting themselves but ideally, eventually how they support themselves starts to be by doing what they always wanted to do. If not, then they find another way of doing what they want to do... while supporting themselves by other means. Whether or not you can make movies while running a production company that does event videography, I have no idea, but I don't see particularly why not. You should talk to someone who has done it.

Unless you were responding to Richard's post, not mine. I can't tell, but I never said "don't set up a production company." How would I know whether that was a good idea or not? I've never done it.

[Joseph Hutson]

One thing I might add to what others have said is that there's no rush, man. You're 17? Cool. How bloody lucky for you that you know what you want to do - but you don't NEED to do it before you're 20.

When did you start? I figured, if I was gonna climb a ladder, better learn how to take the first step.:w00t:

Really, I love the opportunities that I have, and RedUser is so amazing, where all of these experienced individuals can collaborate, and help young filmmakers such as myself.

Thanks again guys for all the posts, and the ones yet to be posted.

[Joseph Hutson]

I said that my experience was in regards to becoming a freelance cinematographer, not setting up a production company NOR becoming a feature filmmaker, so I'm not sure what exactly you are responding to...

I have no useful advice to give whatsoever on the merits or pitfalls of setting up your own company because I've never done it. Nor have I ever made a feature film as a director, I've only shot them as a cinematographer for hire. And all I was doing was relating my own particular path to becoming a DP. As I said in my post, the only thing I've learned is that everyone finds their own way.

Everyone has to find a way of supporting themselves but ideally, eventually how they support themselves starts to be by doing what they always wanted to do. If not, then they find another way of doing what they want to do... while supporting themselves by other means. Whether or not you can make movies while running a production company that does event videography, I have no idea, but I don't see particularly why not. You should talk to someone who has done it.

You have got some great stuff. Thanks so much.

[Ed Blythe]

When did you start? I figured, if I was gonna climb a ladder, better learn how to take the first step.:w00t:

You did that already.

I used to work in a corporate lawfirm. In that place, there was a ladder. I think the film industry is more like a fleet of different pirate ships all whirling around each other, and you gotta put your knife between your teeth and go from mast to mast, trying to avoid the planks and drops and bad guys. Fun, huh?

Arr.

[Richard Lackey]

You wanna make movies = you wanna tell stories. Go get some, from lots of different places, from the mouths of lots of different people (not from the 'net or the media or other movies - get 'em fresh and sticky). Tend a bar, do a season on a fishing boat, earn some dough and travel... Whatever, anything that gets you away from where you are and what you know. Then take that stuff and put it back into your stories. No matter what your interest (DP, director, producer, 2nd 2nd AD) you need to do that, and it will serve you really well on and off set.

If you want to be a film maker, and that is such a general term... but to me usually means you want to write and direct then this is one of the best pieces of advice posted yet.

All of this, everything in it's entirety hangs on being a good storyteller. Usually your best stories are those you have the authority to tell, and that means they have come from some experience in your own life. The context of the story doesn't necessarily have to come from your own immediate experience (although it helps) but the seed of the conflict that drives the drama will be most believable if its come from you.

I want to be a storyteller, but have so far ended up spending more time in Pastel, working through budget spreadsheets and making phone calls than writing or shooting, and that's the problem. In this caffienated million mile and hour world it's so easy to think we can do everything. If I get a shoot now, I call in a crew, a freelance editor, hire in the gear and put them to work while I sit in the office.

I want to have my eyeball to the viewfinder and tell my stories, but I'm still waiting for the day I don't have to worry about money anymore and just go out and shoot. I still believe that day will come, and that's what keeps me going every day. I thought starting a production company would make that happen for me... well, so far it's done a good job at keeping me busy with just about everything other than making my own films.

In the beginning I honestly thought I could be a writer-producer-director-dop-editor-colorist-businessman. The truth is, even if you have all that talent and even a good overall well rounded experience in every aspect of production (which takes many more years in the industry than I have), you can only wear at most two of those hats at the same time. However, I am only 28 (on Saturday) and I too have a whole lifetime ahead of me to build life experiences and to wear a few of the other hats I haven't been able to put on yet. You have almost ten years on me, so I'd agree that it's not worth rushing.

[Darren Orange]

Joseph,
By the nature of your post you seem to hold potential for leadership. You want to do something thats great! Figure out what you want to focus on, thats really the first question. You can want to be a filmmaker but what does that mean and what do you want to do. Best filmmaker honestly are a team player, what part they have in a production is not so important as they do that part and do a darn good job. Focus on the job you want to have and find people who have passion in the other areas that you can trust and find/create something to work on.

Critical thinking and the ability to never get tired are extremely important.

You have the power to go out and film, just go do it.

Most of all have fun!

[Joseph Hutson]

Could you take the time and check out at least a couple of these, and tell me what you DON'T like about them. The only way I found out something is if you all will tell me the TRUTH. :)

I work for a TV station through Independent Contracting Services...
(Example 1) (http://gallery.mac.com/nearsightedpro#100151)
(Example 2) (http://gallery.mac.com/nearsightedpro#100182)

And I have also done a wedding...
(Example 3)
(http://gallery.mac.com/nearsightedpro#100168)

[Brian Reisdorf]

Creatively, it's really about contacts more than anything else. You could do something amazing, but without the right audience, the chances of financially benefiting from what you create is almost nil.

Put yourself out there as much as possible. Maybe even start offering to grip for local productions on your freetime, just to make friends around town that are part of the industry while you do your own thing on the side.

You'll get a lot of referrals from previous clients, but I find you get more (and better) work from other creatives who've seen your work and either want to work with you and bring you on board or they recommend you to some of their clients that they don't have time to service (or don't want to depending on the project at hand).

Bottom line, make friends, lots of them.

[Joseph Hutson]

Bottom line, make friends, lots of them.

Will you be my friend?:tongue:

[Michael Schrengohst]

Could you take the time and check out at least a couple of these, and tell me what you DON'T like about them. The only way I found out something is if you all will tell me the TRUTH. :)

I work for a TV station through Independent Contracting Services...
(Example 1) (http://gallery.mac.com/nearsightedpro#100151)
(Example 2) (http://gallery.mac.com/nearsightedpro#100182)

And I have also done a wedding...
(Example 3)
(http://gallery.mac.com/nearsightedpro#100168)

Where is Claremore, Oklahoma?
Depending on your education (College?)
Your means to move somewhere.
And hundreds of other factors.....
I have many friends who started out in event
videography. That will pay some bills and only
lead to doing more of the same.
I would move to a top 10 market and
work for an agency, or production company
and learn as you earn. The longer you stay
somewhere the more comfortable it becomes.
I don't imagine you want to shoot weddings
when you are 40 years old??

[Joseph Hutson]

Where is Claremore, Oklahoma?

Northeastern Oklahoma(Home of Will Rogers).


Depending on your education (College?)

I will want to go to filmschool if I go anywhere.


Your means to move somewhere.

I will definitely be moving...just can't right now. Gotta finish H.S.:)


I don't imagine you want to shoot weddings
when you are 40 years old??

I don't want to at 25 years old.:wink:

[Michael Schrengohst]

Northeastern Oklahoma(Home of Will Rogers).



I will want to go to filmschool if I go anywhere.



I will definitely be moving...just can't right now. Gotta finish H.S.:)



I don't want to at 25 years old.:wink:

Got ya!!
I thought you were already at least 25??
Yes finish school - most important thing you can do!
Just don't drop a load on film school and have
a $150,000 student loan to pay off.
I have another buddy who is almost 45 and just paid off
his student loans!

[Joseph Hutson]

I thought you were already at least 25??

17! hehe


Just don't drop a load on film school and have
a $150,000 student loan to pay off.
I have another buddy who is almost 45 and just paid off
his student loans!

No, I don't want to do that at 45 either. :)

[donatello b]

at 17 !!! you can it ALL ..
get a education, get real experience, make your own shorts and not end up in 150k in debt ...
when you get a BA/MA you learn much more then just FILM/video ... IMO do not narrow your education to just film/video classes ...

remember that you get to WORK over the next 50 years !!
be sure to get some RR in there ...

[jon erwin]

It's all about 1) experience and 2) networking. Do as much as possible of both. I had to intern for over a year before I got paid for anything. Work for free and make connections. That's a start.

When you save up some cash, buy an iMac, Final Cut and a camera of some sort. HVX200 is great. And your off!

[Cüneyt Kaya]

worst decicions

1.didnt order red earlier
2....political movie in the $$$$$$$ range, i was hired as director.we were really deep in the preprodcution...but after my relatives get threatened from certain sources, production decided to cancel the project...too dangerous they said....
I didnt had the power to raise the project alone....
(so if anybody is interested in producing this movie and is not afraid should pm me)
3. didnt start earlier
4. buying a panasonic DV cam back in 2000, although i couldnt afford
5. worked sometimes too much, clever working is the key.

best decicions

1. quitting university (mathematics)
2. ordering a RED
3. be honest...nothing more nothing less
4. have no pity with people owing you money.
5. never loan someone more then 100$ (if he pays it back, fine....if he doesnt pay back, be thankful that you could buy the information about his charakter for 100 Dollars, it will save you thousands in the long run)

[Priyesh P.]

I did start a production company in 2003 to get into the business, music video production - it worked, but financially it ended up as break-even.
Now I`m a director / freelance digital artist (I just arrived home from the 2008 redesign for comedy central) and I`d never (NEVER) again start a company as long as I can`t afford a good manager who does the boring shitwork of handling the business. That`s the ultimate crap that (sorry) fucks your head big time, things like paper work and stuff like that.

[Priyesh P.]

worst decicions

4. buying a panasonic DV cam back in 2000, although i couldnt afford
5. worked sometimes too much, clever working is the key.

best decicions

4. have no pity with people owing you money.
5. never loan someone more then 100$ (if he pays it back, fine....if he doesnt pay back, be thankful that you could buy the information about his charakter for 100 Dollars, it will save you thousands in the long run)

some good points from kaya. keep people out of range who try to lure money out of you. I never lend money to anyone. but on the other hand I never do borrow money from anyone since you start to get familiar all to fast doing so, I`ve seen people having stepped into that trap. best thing anyway: NEVER get a bank loan, that`s one of the best advices I`ve heard from an economics professor. banks and loans are the most evil and mercilessly bloodsucking facilities in our societies. they`ll fuck you right in the second when help or assistance is what you need most.

[Yannick Hagman]

This is a good read here.

[Joseph Hutson]

This is a good read here.

I agree!:construction:

[Peter Majtan]

Joseph - the best advice I can give You is stay away from business partners in the future if at all possible. If You do well (I wish for You that You do...) - there will be some predators lurking around to "help You out" to the next level. I lost $ 1.5 million in this fashion back in Australia...

Greed can get the "best" out of people...

PS: I am still recovering...

[Joseph Hutson]

Joseph - the best advice I can give You is stay away from business partners in the future if at all possible. If You do well (I wish for You that You do...) - there will be some predators lurking around to "help You out" to the next level. I lost $ 1.5 million in this fashion back in Australia...

Greed can get the "best" out of people...

PS: I am still recovering...

Woah, I didn't know that about you.

1.5 million...a few Scarlets!

[Peter Majtan]

Also - two more advices (even thou it may sounds cheezy):
- Believe in Yourself and don't let anyone tell You that You can't do it...
- Keep focused and establish for Yourself a specific goal, that You can reach within a reasonable time-frame. This way, if You get lost along the way - You can always get Your bearing. If You don't know where You are going - You will never get anywhere... Also once You have reach the goal - set another one. The more realistic Your goals are - the faster You will progress...

[Bob Gruen]

A lot of discussion on companies here, so the question becomes 'why?'.

Most feature film projects start an LLC as the legal vehicle of the film. Investors buy shares in the LLC, it's basically an unlisted security and there are laws that must be followed there.

A Production company is the legal vehicle of a person or people that get these projects started. They are used to shelter the individuals from liability, applying profit to purchase equipment while writing off on taxes, and various other things.

One person cannot make a feature film; it takes teams of people. Decide where you want to be positioned in the team and let your decisions flow from there.

Now onto the advice...

Best advice for someone who is pre-college age: go to college for something other than film, something more practical (like a business degree). Then move on with your life and amass as many experiences in the real world as you can. If you still have the passion for film 5 years post college then make the move.

During that time STUDY anything you can lay your hands on (Story by Robert McKee, anything by Syd Field, Directing the Film by Sherman, ). Get the best cam and NLE you can afford and shoot on weekends. Live a life and take notes; meet people and amass experiences. Watch good movies and skip the dreck. Avoid serious relationships unless the other person is as dedicated to film making as you are. Stay focused.

If you truly have a passion for it you will come back to it. You'll have a college degree and career to help fund your obsession and to fall back on should you fail.

Best of Luck,

Bob

[Jason Sinclair]

#1 you are only as good as your last work Thats all anyone will be interested in.
#2 Dont be afraid to do everything under one hat at the start, you need to know it all anyway. You will need to communicate and know what can be done for how much and what can't.
#3 make sure it is your purpose in life to follow this path, because you will be tested and will only endure if you are certain. Well that is how it seems to me.

[burnie]

I liked Bob's advice.

[woodybrando]

My first suggestion is taking into consideration that we're on reduser, the list could go in any order:

Avoid gear lust at all costs. I've wasted more time and money waiting and saving for expensive tools that didn't teach me as much about filmmaking as taking two days to make this short video on my $240 digital camera's video mode and then edited on a bootleg copy of avid xpress:

http://www.oldchildprojects.com/videos/middle%20school%20lil.mov

I have to constantly remind myself that reading about new technology is not film making :nerd: . Film making, to me, is problem solving. The problem being there's a story in my mind and I for some reason want to capture it in light and sound to get an audience reaction.

And it only takes three bits of technology to get started: a video camera, any damned video camera when you're getting started, a mic, and an nle. I like and suggest avid media composer. I own a legit copy now, (see piracy works.) Although, final cut studio is more flexible and easier to get a bootleg copy of. Oh yeah, I guess I'm taking for granted that you need a computer too.

But anyway start now. Go into your mind. Pick your favorite story to tell. And use whatever camera, mic and nle you've got to tell it. Now! RIGHT NOW! Don't even finish reading this post. Go make your story and show it to everyone and watch their reaction. If they don't react how you want them to, you've done something wrong. Go back and do it again till you get the reaction you want. There's no better how to guide, than getting it wrong. I used to be afraid of getting things wrong. I thought it meant I didn't have talent. That life was telling me to quit. I thought it was a bad sign. But, in hindsight it's the best sign. It means you're trying. And the sooner you're trying the sooner you're getting it right.

The next lesson I learned. I need people. Find the most talented people in your neighborhood. At your school, at work, online, wherever. And collaborate with them. Don't waste too much time trying to inspire folks that just don't want to. Find the folks that already "are" and work with them. It's helped me break out of boring patterns, depressions and inspired me. Especially when all of a sudden the most creative and talented people I'd ever met started suggesting we work together. Damn, that just makes you feel like a unicorn full of rainbows. But don't let them over power you. The sooner you learn to trust your own voice and wield it in the face of dogged adversity from folks with more experience or reputation or tirelessness the sooner you'll make something you're proud of. And the more you'll trust yourself.

I didn't go to film school. I hate debt. And I kind of hate college teachers. They play oblivious accomplice to the banks and indebt young folks that don't even really understand what debt is. Then we're forced to take any damned job we can get which more often than not decides our fate. That being said d. mullen makes a good point about going to college. You're more likely to meet people who already "are" there. And that's worth something. I wouldn't say 100 k of debt. But something.

I'm with kalon's economics professor. The banks and their debt money are the bane of all our existences. So much so that my hatred for their merciless shell game has crept into my work. Too bad kalon's economics professor doesn't realize he's upholding the banker's second favorite institution behind real estate, college. But like tupac raps in Changes, "i made a G today, but you made it in a sleazy way, sellin' college to the kids, but i gotta get paid, well hey, that's just the way it is." :ranting2:

uh anyway, boobs and chicken wings. go team. hopefully you're not reading this because you've been so inspired, you've run off to make your favorite story. If not go now, get off the damned forums and make a video.

Of course when you try to ingest your footage and avid tells you that the camera you just connected via firewire is not connected via firewire
or (to be equitable,)
when you're in fcp and you can't figure out why your keyframes look like they've jumped and all you did was move the timeline, then come back to the forums and start asking questions again.

I love the forums. They're wonderful.

uh yeah that's probably enough for now. oh yeah and when in doubt, have fun. :biggrin: jayson.

www.oldchildprojects.com

[Henk van den Doel]

Best decisions:
1. team up with a business partner who is good at the stuff I am not good at (and don't like to do by the way). This is not only good in dividing work, it's especially good for the balance in the business. For example: I would have bought 4 RED One's at the first drawings, and be completely bankrupt by now. My businesspartner helps me to wait until the first images are actually out, and finally only order one RED camera. Now we still have a business and cashflow. I do also read negative stories here about business partners. So be careful and trust your instincts.
2. thinking out a strategy and think out what we want to accomplish, before actually starting the business (just like you are doing now I think, very important)
3. talk about our plans all the time (as long as they don't hold any 'secret stuff') to many many people. Almost anyone has something clever to say about it, or might have some interesting contacts. All of this really helps in what I said at #2. Talk to your uncle, talk to your hairdresser, the hotdog vendor... you name it. You will be surprised.
4. Starting when I was 24 and my business partner 22. The help you receive when you are young is amazing. So don't be afraid to ask for help if you believe someone could help you (don't push it though :) )
5. Representing ourselves in exactly the way we are. And then try to make that look sort of professional.

worst decisions:
1. being too patient with people that do not deserve it.
2. doing business with people you don't really feel like doing business with. We had an interview for a job once, where afterwards we walked away with a really bad feeling about it. But.. they had a job we wanted, and a budget we could use. We decided to do business with them and it was the most frustrating job ever. Not worth the money. Be decisive about who you wish to do business with. Having the right contacts and goals set when you are young, play a vital role in this. Trustworthy people like doing business with people like themselves. So guess what about their network...it's filled with more people that you can rely on. And if they hear from their reliable contacts, there is a new reliable contact in town to help them in the movies/videos, they want to meet you too. Great stuff. So try to make a proper start and meet the right people now. The ones you don't like but 'might come in handy to get you started'? Forget about them, you don't need them and they will only help you down.

Good luck man. And have fun!
--

yohenk

[Jason Sinclair]

#1 you are only as good as your last work Thats all anyone will be interested in.
#2 Dont be afraid to do everything under one hat at the start, you need to know it all anyway. You will need to communicate and know what can be done for how much and what can't.
#3 make sure it is your purpose in life to follow this path, because you will be tested and will only endure if you are certain. Well that is how it seems to me.

Oh yea very important
#4 The people you work with are the most important element in any creative endeavor. Choose wisely. I have worked with the most proffesional that have just stuffed up my work and i have worked with the most inexperienced that have saved my neck, and everything in between. Beware of the "yes" man, he is the one that pulls out when you least need it. He's there for some other reason than you.

The quiet dutiful people who have knowledge, they are the keepers...

[Zakaree Sandberg]

you will learn more in the first 5 min on a professional set than you will in 4 years of film school

[Jason Sinclair]

and you will learn one or two gems in film school that you won't learn four years on the job...

[Zakaree Sandberg]

and you will learn one or two gems in film school that you won't learn four years on the job...

lucky. i learned how to blow through cash really fast and get nothing out of it.

funny story tho..
I went to brooks (the film making division in ventura)
was only there for a year before i peaced out on it due to it losing accreditation.. anyways..
sitting in class, teacher is showing us photos from his personal computer (projected onto the screen). He has his iphoto open and its just running through a playlist.. out of nowhere some home made pornographic pictures pop up on the screen. Him and his chick or something. he quickly shut his computer screen down and everyone was just like "WTF"..
so yeah.. that was fun

[Peter Majtan]

Well - at least You had a proof he was filmmaker after all... :)

[Joseph Hutson]

...just gleaning over old threads. This was a good one til the last 2 posts. :biggrin5:

[Mark L. Pederson]

:help:

I am a young filmmaker(17), and have started my own videography business(link to my website) (http://nearsightedproductions.com).

I went to a business meeting last night, and was told to "ASK QUESTIONS". So here I am. Though you might think your advice is'nt the greatest, I would like to know what some of the best things you did for your business, and the worst.

What would you suggest? FilmSchool? Just make short films on your own? Both? What else?

I think many other people here on RedUser have the same questions, so, thanks for your invaluable advice in advance.

Cultivate relationships. Collaborate with others who have already achieved a level of success far greater than yours and pay attention to how they do what they do. Ask questions every day of your life. You will tend to get more answers than most people.

[Stephen Gentle]

...just gleaning over old threads. This was a good one til the last 2 posts. :biggrin5:

That's for sure... Anyway, how's the business going?

[Joseph Hutson]

That's for sure... Anyway, how's the business going?

It's going fantastic!

I had the privilege to work on an independent feature film called "Greyscale" which featured a few actors from Hollywood. You may have heard me talk about the movie, but if not, I started out as a Behind the Scenes videographer/editor but before the end of production the director liked my work so much he had me running the A-cam. To find out more, go to http://www.greyscalemovie.com/

I think the biggest benefit of me working on this movie (other than the experience on a film set) was getting to work with "Doug Jones" who played "Abe Sapien" in Hellboy 1&2 and the "Angel of Death" in Hellboy 2; the "Faun man" in Pan's Labyrinth; and the "Silver Surfer" in Fantastic 4. Doug Jones is also expected to be seen in "The Hobbit".

I got to make friends with "Dougie" and while he was on a road trip down the famous Route 66 a couple weeks ago, he took time out to stay the evening at my house and just hang out.


Other than the actual film business which is what I want to do as a living, I have been doing weddings, TV commercials, and a number of sporting events for both TV stations and individual schools and universities.

Though I have done a lot, I consider myself to know nothing compared all that I need to learn though. That's why anytime people that are at least one step ahead of me, I want them to talk so I can hear their invaluable experiences.

[Chad Clemans]

My two cents:

It's easy for a cameraman to want to capture anything and everything at a one-time event, but it's hard for a cameraman to give lead room to everything on the field at the same time without only shooting a boring master shot.

Find out what aspects you love, ask people what the best equipment/software for those niches are, and why, then read those user manuals; they will teach you both the commonalities between all competitors and the specific traits of the best. You don't need to know how every device works, nor how the last build/version worked; you just need to live on the bleeding edge so as to give enough lead room to get the single good shot a single cameraman can get in an event that doesn't allow for re-takes: life. Best-

[Christian Edwards]

Cultivate relationships. Collaborate with others who have already achieved a level of success far greater than yours and pay attention to how they do what they do. Ask questions every day of your life. You will tend to get more answers than most people.
Mark, How'd you get OffHollywood to be where it is today ?

[Joe G.]

Personally, I'm only interested in watching films by people with something to say. Get some of that first.

You'd be amazed how many have nothing to say whatsoever.

[Stephen Gentle]

It's going fantastic!

I had the privilege to work on an independent feature film called "Greyscale" which featured a few actors from Hollywood. You may have heard me talk about the movie, but if not, I started out as a Behind the Scenes videographer/editor but before the end of production the director liked my work so much he had me running the A-cam. To find out more, go to http://www.greyscalemovie.com/

That's pretty awesome - I saw the bit about that film on your website but it didn't mention that story!

[Joseph Hutson]

That's pretty awesome - I saw the bit about that film on your website but it didn't mention that story!

thanks. I didn't want to brag too much about myself. :laugh: But when there are potential clients talking to me first hand about all of my involvement, then I say something.

[Joseph Hutson]

Anyway, how's the business going?

And, I just got an agreement from a TV station to do my 2nd best paying gig to date. :party:

[Tom Lowe]

5 BEST Scenario:


1. Shoot.

2. Shoot.

3. Shoot.

4. Shoot.

5. Read Filmmaking Tutorials and Forums.

Win.


As far as learning goes, my technique was:
Watch movies, read about movies that I watched, shoot movies and try out what I learned by reading and watching movies, repeat as often as possible.

Or to put it another way, you need periods of activity and reflectivity, so you can absorb the lessons learned while being active. Generally though you don't have to plan for the periods between work, they just happen naturally!

But as far as a career goes, when I started out, I asked every successful DP how they got there start and I never heard the same story twice. Of course, this was in the 1980's and the DP's I talked to got their start in the 1950's and 60's before film schools were as popular and commonplace. But the lesson learned was that everyone forges their own path through the jungle, there are no roads.

The main advantage to film school was meeting students that would later hire me or connect me to other work after graduation. I got two or three features that way and that got the ball rolling, since one job leads to the next.

But my advice is in regards to becoming a DP for hire, not setting up a production company.

Another win.


I said that my experience was in regards to becoming a freelance cinematographer, not setting up a production company NOR becoming a feature filmmaker, so I'm not sure what exactly you are responding to...

I have no useful advice to give whatsoever on the merits or pitfalls of setting up your own company because I've never done it. Nor have I ever made a feature film as a director, I've only shot them as a cinematographer for hire. And all I was doing was relating my own particular path to becoming a DP. As I said in my post, the only thing I've learned is that everyone finds their own way.

Everyone has to find a way of supporting themselves but ideally, eventually how they support themselves starts to be by doing what they always wanted to do. If not, then they find another way of doing what they want to do... while supporting themselves by other means. Whether or not you can make movies while running a production company that does event videography, I have no idea, but I don't see particularly why not. You should talk to someone who has done it.

Unless you were responding to Richard's post, not mine. I can't tell, but I never said "don't set up a production company." How would I know whether that was a good idea or not? I've never done it.

More win.


Also - two more advices (even thou it may sounds cheezy):
- Believe in Yourself and don't let anyone tell You that You can't do it...
- Keep focused and establish for Yourself a specific goal, that You can reach within a reasonable time-frame. This way, if You get lost along the way - You can always get Your bearing. If You don't know where You are going - You will never get anywhere... Also once You have reach the goal - set another one. The more realistic Your goals are - the faster You will progress...

More good advice. Learn to trust your dreams.


My first suggestion is taking into consideration that we're on reduser, the list could go in any order:

Avoid gear lust at all costs. I've wasted more time and money waiting and saving for expensive tools that didn't teach me as much about filmmaking as taking two days to make this short video on my $240 digital camera's video mode and then edited on a bootleg copy of avid xpress:

http://www.oldchildprojects.com/videos/middle%20school%20lil.mov

I have to constantly remind myself that reading about new technology is not film making :nerd: . Film making, to me, is problem solving. The problem being there's a story in my mind and I for some reason want to capture it in light and sound to get an audience reaction.

And it only takes three bits of technology to get started: a video camera, any damned video camera when you're getting started, a mic, and an nle. I like and suggest avid media composer. I own a legit copy now, (see piracy works.) Although, final cut studio is more flexible and easier to get a bootleg copy of. Oh yeah, I guess I'm taking for granted that you need a computer too.

But anyway start now. Go into your mind. Pick your favorite story to tell. And use whatever camera, mic and nle you've got to tell it. Now! RIGHT NOW! Don't even finish reading this post. Go make your story and show it to everyone and watch their reaction. If they don't react how you want them to, you've done something wrong. Go back and do it again till you get the reaction you want. There's no better how to guide, than getting it wrong. I used to be afraid of getting things wrong. I thought it meant I didn't have talent. That life was telling me to quit. I thought it was a bad sign. But, in hindsight it's the best sign. It means you're trying. And the sooner you're trying the sooner you're getting it right.

The next lesson I learned. I need people. Find the most talented people in your neighborhood. At your school, at work, online, wherever. And collaborate with them. Don't waste too much time trying to inspire folks that just don't want to. Find the folks that already "are" and work with them. It's helped me break out of boring patterns, depressions and inspired me. Especially when all of a sudden the most creative and talented people I'd ever met started suggesting we work together. Damn, that just makes you feel like a unicorn full of rainbows. But don't let them over power you. The sooner you learn to trust your own voice and wield it in the face of dogged adversity from folks with more experience or reputation or tirelessness the sooner you'll make something you're proud of. And the more you'll trust yourself.

I didn't go to film school. I hate debt. And I kind of hate college teachers. They play oblivious accomplice to the banks and indebt young folks that don't even really understand what debt is. Then we're forced to take any damned job we can get which more often than not decides our fate. That being said d. mullen makes a good point about going to college. You're more likely to meet people who already "are" there. And that's worth something. I wouldn't say 100 k of debt. But something.

I'm with kalon's economics professor. The banks and their debt money are the bane of all our existences. So much so that my hatred for their merciless shell game has crept into my work. Too bad kalon's economics professor doesn't realize he's upholding the banker's second favorite institution behind real estate, college. But like tupac raps in Changes, "i made a G today, but you made it in a sleazy way, sellin' college to the kids, but i gotta get paid, well hey, that's just the way it is." :ranting2:

uh anyway, boobs and chicken wings. go team. hopefully you're not reading this because you've been so inspired, you've run off to make your favorite story. If not go now, get off the damned forums and make a video.

Of course when you try to ingest your footage and avid tells you that the camera you just connected via firewire is not connected via firewire
or (to be equitable,)
when you're in fcp and you can't figure out why your keyframes look like they've jumped and all you did was move the timeline, then come back to the forums and start asking questions again.

I love the forums. They're wonderful.

uh yeah that's probably enough for now. oh yeah and when in doubt, have fun. :biggrin: jayson.

www.oldchildprojects.com

Good stuff. Welcome, woody.


you will learn more in the first 5 min on a professional set than you will in 4 years of film school

Yes. Too many to keep quoting.

Great thread. "Just shoot!"

[Gavin Greenwalt]

1. Make everyone around you look good.
2. Always do what you say you're going to do and do it on time.
3. If you've been around 30 years or 1, a demo reel is usually less than 5 minutes long.
4. If you have to choose between being the guy who does great work and the guy who does it cheap be the one who does the good work. If they call the cheap guy next time then they're a dead end anyway. You only want to work where quality is valued, otherwise you'll never have anything to show for it.
5. Reflect on where you've come. Every step looks like the last. It's only on reflection that you can see how far you've come and whether you're still on course.

[JosephArthur]

Just learn and the other thing is observe. My son is 15, yesterday his very first film/RED shoot was on the Paramore Video as Second Camera (With all RED cameras on set , as his job was shooting Camera B, and follow focus). He learned alot on the set and picked up things just by observing the other jobs around him.

My son's very first full feature film was more of a student film (Shooting in the RED camera as well). But stuff you learn on the RED or an ARRI or even HVXs are all the same consideration on a set with just changes on certain equipment as tools. - they are just tools. But know what your getting into something by just observing on a few shoots (even if your observing by pushing a broom or assisting a catering company) - really, no joke.

My son's first jobs were bouncing light / diffusing with silks. And just did what he was told by the more experienced people. He was with me at the RED office today just getting some shirts/hats with me and he just listened to people.

I think an important thing is on a set when you are starting out is what your supposed to do right. But MOST important is learn how to listen and know how to hear.

[Tonaci Tran]

some advice- respond to people quickly. its something i myself continually work on. one of my old professors also taught me a huge lesson.. send thank you letters to clients. it seems like something so small..but believe me, your clients will remember it. lastly, my business is built upon strong relationships and good service. thats the business side..as for making movies. i don't think I should even have to recommend anything to you..like telling you to read books, read online, learn, watch movies, shoot. if you really love this line of work you would already be doing these things without anyone having to tell you to.

[Jerrod Cordell]

I'm really glad you made this thread Joseph. I can't believe I didn't see this before. Because this is exactly what I've been wanting to see because I want to start my own Production Company/Scarlet rental and DIT business for when Scarlet comes out.

How about some advice from a Red Renter/DIT's perspective? I'm curious on how the business is for that.

And I have to say Joseph, good job for doing all this really good work so young. Shit, I thought I was ahead of my time but I've been out of school for almost 3 years now and I'm just now getting my first paying gig. So props to you man, and good luck with your business.