Thoughts of RED and DALSA with Pics

[Don Woods]

Ok so let me start by saying this is just my opinon. This will not turn into a RED is better, and everyone else sucks. This is just an observation.

So I went and checked out the other 4K cam at the show, and I could not help but feel a little sorry for them. I hope they did not go by the RED tent. They looked a little lonely. So first off let me state that their camera is as big as a truck. I mean really it is as big as my chevy pick up. You need a big tripod and don't try and do any type of hand held and I dont think you would have any easy time on a crane/jib. So thats not good. The second thing is you can't have one. You can't buy one, if you ask you get looked at like your crazy and unless you have all the money in the world you will never have one of these. Thats not good. I like having my own cameras.. So thats a no go. So how do you use one. Well you get to rent from DALSA. Well whats the day rate for a camera package I can actually recorded something with. Well the day rate is around $3,500 give or take. Atleast that is what a rep there told me. So wow I rent for about two weeks and I could have bought a RED.. Ok so its really not a visable 4K soulution for anyone. Then lets talk about how it records. You are teathered through fiber to a box. A really big box. like it is the trailer on the back of the truck.. Its big. Its kind of pretty but in a big way. And guess how long you get to recorded 4K for until you have to dump. 94min. witch in a film world is not that bad. But only 94min for what that thing has to rent for and I have to be tathered to it. WOW. Then ok, well there footage has to look better. Well they did not have a 4K theater with a film. But what I saw, did not blow me away. I would beg to say that the footage we get out of REDCODE is the exact same quilty if not better. So basicly I don't know what DALSA is aiming for. I did not get any pics of their new cam but I was given the impression that it was much of the same, just instead of a truck it was a full size car. So just my 2 cents. Hang in there DALSA I'm sure there is a market out there for you. I just don't know what it is.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y192/Imgentertainment/IMG_2764.jpg
Dalsa Booth

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y192/Imgentertainment/IMG_2765.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y192/Imgentertainment/IMG_2767.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y192/Imgentertainment/IMG_2768.jpg

[Don Woods]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y192/Imgentertainment/IMG_2769.jpg
And thats what you record to..:help:

[Martín Yernazian]

DAMN!!!!!!!!!
Actually that's not the camera that they have ready for next year......
I have seen a much smaller camera made by Dalsa..... will see what happens... right now Red is the main Star on this show


Best

[Manfred Lopez]

How ironic/prophetic is it that the Dalsa booth is right next to the toilets.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Well in Dalsa's defense they did announce a new onboard mathematically lossless storage system today, so that nuclear launch code brief case won't be necessary anymore.

[casey warren]

I would hate to have my booth next to the restroom....

[Zakaree Sandberg]

i was embarrased for dalsa.. the origin which i have never seen in person was seriously the size of a fully grown african elephant.. and the new evolution its pretty big and ridiculous as well

[Don Woods]

I got a chance to look at the new cam and yes it is allot smaller but it is still big. allot bigger then the RED ONE. also I was not very intreaged by their work flow. Thank god for RED CINE.

[Andrew M.]

But they were first, and it was excellent proof of concept project.
We should pay respect to the engineers there.
BTW they produce the excellent image sensors up to 32MP
Cameras are just a sideline, kind of application concept.
IMHO

[fightordie]

Not making a judgement on your post but the Evolution is a more refined Dalsa and better suited to a comparison with the RED. No tethering, lossless codec, 13 stops, etc.

[laguun]

But they were first, and it was excellent proof of concept project.
We should pay respect to the engineers there.
BTW they produce the excellent image sensors up to 32MP
Cameras are just a sideline, kind of application concept.
IMHO

yes, dalsa were the real pioneers of 4k. iirc they had running 4k camera when red wasn´t even a concept. besides their "sidebusiness" cameras, they own a large rental shop in LA etc.

generally speaking - i recommend to judge other manufacturers with more respect. we have a complete HDCAM @ uncompressed 1080p workflow here, class 1 monitors, vtrs, camera, editing etc - it all works fine, reliable.

it was >500.000$, but we bought it iirc beginning ~2002, thats 5 years ago.

red now has a fantastic productline, but even a powerhouse like the red one isn´t perfectly suited for all news (ENG anyone?).

and in all honesty, i wouldn´t surprised if lots of red shot stuff will find its way to filmrecorder, mastering house or simply the broadcaster on good old sony hdcam/sr tape for many years to come.

competition is always good, for manufacturers as for us customers.

[Joe Aurili]

It's not their fault. They don't have alien technology from Roswell like Jim does!

[Michael "Dorkman" Scott]

They were pioneering the digital 4K from waaaaay back, as said above, before RED jumped into the mix.

I can see why Dalsa folks are so anti-RED and trying to shoot holes in it (or at least were last time I saw anything from them on the subject). Besides just being a competitor, RED has utterly destroyed many years and a lot of money they devoted to R&D. Between RED and the Dalsa -- mainly because of the price point -- Dalsa's market is essentially nonexistent.

This past weekend I went apartment hunting (so I couldn't make NAB this year :bye2: ) and early on Saturday my roommate and I saw an apartment that blew our minds. It's huge and beautiful and just absolutely perfect (while I'm on the subject, cross your fingers that they accept our application!).

We saw a lot of other places this weekend, a lot of great places that in their own right would be amazing places, and if we hadn't seen the other place we would probably have loved them. But having seen our dream place, they seemed downright bland. To say nothing of the fact that of all the places, our favorite was both the largest (by 200 sq ft) and the cheapest (by $300).

RED vs. Dalsa seems kind of like that to me. If it weren't for RED and Jim, we'd all probably be singing the praises of Dalsa and Jeff for pioneering the field and driving the industry forward. In its own right it was a great idea and a great leap forward, but Jim did it better, cheaper, and faster, and stole Dalsa's thunder.

[Axel Mertes]

[QUOTE=IMGentertainment;28387]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y192/Imgentertainment/IMG_2764.jpg
Dalsa Booth

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y192/Imgentertainment/IMG_2765.jpg


Has somebody noted that Dalsa equals the restrooms here in this shot?

Has somebody noted that the Dalsa cam seems to be getting collected by that women moving that gray canister???

The two images give a really good experience to what the Origin looks like in comparison to the RED. When I see these images, I still can't believe anyone was ever complaining about RED camera "design" in the beginning. Honestly I think that the Dalsa was fu**ed by the "ALIEN" and its head is clearly growing within it. It'll break open some day and die, and the ALIEN will run run run...

I think the Origin was really a good system for showing 4K digital is possible. But it was never the kind of camera one wanted for on-set use. Think of shoulder-mounting that. With the 4K recorder on the back! No steady cam required, you'll be buried under some hundret kilos metal and cables between.

Could'nt resist.

Anyhow,
Dalsa, keep doing good sensors! I really like the 33 Mpix Mamiya...

Axel

[lumiere]

I love this photo, it looks like the dalsa is about to go in the trash below.

[Tom Lowe]

Wow, do you have to hire a bodybuilder to operate handheld with that thing? Ridiculous size. That thing is totally impractical in every way.

[Ace]

No need to be disrespectful.. Dalsa guys visit this forum too.

[Bruce Allen]

That's the old Dalsa, isn't it? I mean, the one that was happily shooting at Cinegear LA last year, when Red was just a mockup.

Not really fair, these comments. Why not post a photo of the new one?

I know... Red will still crush it in price/performance. But then we redusers will not come off as such bad sports.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Jannard]

We have great respect for what Dalsa has done. They led the way to 4K. RED has suffered disrespect on other boards and we didn't like it. Please remember that when posting about our competition.

Jim

[PaulClements]

You've always shown great respect for your competitors jim, which is why the whole "evolution not revolution" thing bugs me a little. At first I found it funny but hearing it being touted round as trademark smacks a little of ill-placed marketting. I've got enormous respect for their products and input into the side of the industry that most here are actively involved in or anticipate being. And you are completely right that this forum shouldn't lambast the competition.

[Matthew Verkler]

Amen to that. Let's be good sports.

Dalsa is facing the disruptive technology of Red, like many companies have faced in many industries. If this market means anything to them, they have to adapt to the changing reality or die. My business has faced the same thing several times (for example, cheap post undercutting my big iron - I had to make FCP work for me instead of against me).

This is the industrial revolution all over again - old skills, and in this case, old price points, no longer work. But the new reality is full of new opportunity. Red could create a market segment that essentially didn't exist before. That can boost Dalsa if they play it right, with no harm to Red. It's all up to how they want to play the hand they're dealt (sorry, we're in Vegas, baby!).

Apple saw the benefit of getting on board, and together, Red and Apple are far more powerful than they are separately. The question for Dalsa is, what can they bring to the table for the end-user? What need can they fill (or create) competitively?

[JD Holloway]

Looks like a lens on my tower PC.

While the Roadcase storage is cool looking, its cool in an HD Engineering Rack sort of way. This is HD in the '90s with 750/900's when few people trusted the technology.

Things have changed a bit I'd say...

[integr8d]

Dalsa and Red will have a chance, if they can get their user base up. At an expo, a couple of months ago, we saw a camera, if you could call it that, that was nothing more than a block. It was a couple of inches squared -barely bigger than the pl-mount stuck to it. It only required a small power cable and an ethernet cable. It put out full uncompressed, 2K video... The competition is not waiting. And I think you'll be seeing cameras coming from manufacturers that you've never heard of before... Not too long ago, I was working w/ a Phantom -who?- camera that shot 2K, uncompressed at 2000fps. It reminded me of an early model, miniature Hoover vacuum cleaner -by design traits only... These guys are coming out of nowhere... Red's strength lies in its design team -it looks perdy- and marketing department. Dalsa his its strength in engineering. Any company that can put a 100mp chip into a satellite can certainly do an imager for motion picture work. Either way, it'll be fun to work with both of em'.

[Poi Boy]

I'd say red has the edge on engineering cameras.
Aloha
-A

[Mardi_Gras]

[QUOTE=IMGentertainment;28387]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y192/Imgentertainment/IMG_2764.jpg
Dalsa Booth

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y192/Imgentertainment/IMG_2765.jpg


Has somebody noted that Dalsa equals the restrooms here in this shot?

Has somebody noted that the Dalsa cam seems to be getting collected by that women moving that gray canister???

The two images give a really good experience to what the Origin looks like in comparison to the RED. When I see these images, I still can't believe anyone was ever complaining about RED camera "design" in the beginning. Honestly I think that the Dalsa was fu**ed by the "ALIEN" and its head is clearly growing within it. It'll break open some day and die, and the ALIEN will run run run...

I think the Origin was really a good system for showing 4K digital is possible. But it was never the kind of camera one wanted for on-set use. Think of shoulder-mounting that. With the 4K recorder on the back! No steady cam required, you'll be buried under some hundret kilos metal and cables between.

Could'nt resist.

Anyhow,
Dalsa, keep doing good sensors! I really like the 33 Mpix Mamiya...

Axel

I gotta hand it to you... great comedic timing there. I LMAO!!!

[feb31films]

We have great respect for what Dalsa has done. They led the way to 4K. RED has suffered disrespect on other boards and we didn't like it. Please remember that when posting about our competition.

Jim

Well said, Jim. As a die hard MAC user, I can't help but draw parallels between Red and Apple. Creative Labs led the way in personal MP3 players, being first to market and followed very closely by several other competitors. But Apple came along months later with the iPod and completely dominated the marketplace (and still do), Why? Not because they did it first, but because they did it RIGHT! And don't forget that the success of the iPod is largely based on the adoption of iTunes. The software made the user experience on the hardware fun and effortless. Likewise with REDCODE. 4K acquisition is great (you can do it with a DALSA), but Redcode is what really makes it work - fun and effortless. You heard it hear first: for film & media professionals, RED ONE is the new iPod and Redcode/Redcine is the new iTunes.

[Don Woods]

Nothing but the up most respect for DALASA, I'm just stating different strokes for different fokes. I think that Dalsa went wrong where they followed the model of every other big camera company out there except for RED. And that is make a camera that no one can have just want. Its the big bad beast and it dose not work in this industry anymore thanks to people with guts like jim.

[dalen johnson]

Apple saw the benefit of getting on board,

Steve and Jim have the same 'feel' about them - they are probably buddies, or at least hang out - so it was not hard to see that apple and red would 'come together', especially with some of the past post from gramme (sorry spelling).

Peace

Dalen

[Brook Willard]

You have to remember that Dalsa's camera division is a tiny part of a gigantic sensor company. They aren't a RED competitor because they don't want to be... at least as far as I can tell. I have nothing but respect for them and their camera[s].

[Ace]

Yeah, didnt they produce the 100+MP sensors on the Mars space Rover?

[Greg Voevodsky]

yes, their prototype was a lot smaller... but still 3 times the size of Red. I joked, and ask the sales guy how much, and he said, it costs tooo much toooo sell and that the day rates were $3500 a day... I smiled and said I was sorry but I had already bought RED and was soon to be shooting by September....
He like most had not want to stand in line for an hour... My, did RED instill fear of the unknown among many who were interested by with ego would not stand in line... LOL - payback is a bitch!!! Sorry, but I have been wanting to say that to all the SOBs that bitched and said RED was vapo wear... All I said this week vs last year was... stand in line for an hour... and the so callled Vaporwear isnt... Very funny that both Sony XDcam and JVC's codecs were NOT supported by either Apple and AVid and were not easily edited the first year at Last years NAB when they came out. RED in the first year of release is cuttable at Apples booth and show... and can be edited easily on apple and avid... so WHO is the REAL PLAYER... WHY DID SONY AND JVC drop the ball? and RED kicks ass... I say its just world class leadership by Jim and Steve (Jobs)... who better watch his place on Forbes by next year.... (I say Jim can take him...though)

[TJXCam]

Ok so let me start by saying this is just my opin on. This will not turn into a RED is better, and everyone else sucks. This is just an observation.



Dude, it doesn't sound like you're talking out of your rear end. You didn't even bother to walk in the booth?!?!? The new camera is right in front and it looked smaller than the Panavision Genesis.

I spent full day at NAB visiting booths, and chatting with the reps. I went to Sony, Band Pro, Vision Research, Panasonic, Apple, Dalsa, Fujinon, Samy's, B&H and several other companies.

Of all the booths I visited I got the best vibes from the reps at Dalsa. The guy I spoke with took me through the whole 4K process, let me operate the equipment, showed me 4K downconverted to 2K, and some 1000 fps shorts shot with the Phantom camera, which was also on display. The rep answered all my questions, and didn't blow me off like the guy I was talking to at Sony.

while I was talking to the Dalsa rep we started talking about Red. I asked the Dalsa rep if they purchased any Reds for the rental department, and he says "No. We're waiting until they produce a final camera so we can do a comprehensive evaluation. But we're not at any rental disadvantage, because we've already got several reservation holders who've agreed to "consign" their cameras for rentals as soon it ships."

I never heard of "consigning" a camera before, and I guess it's something that's not done at every rental house. When Dalsa decides to work with a consignee, they only need a camera body and viewfinder. Then when someone rents the camera they outfit the consignee's camera with their professional PL lenses, matteboxes, follow focuses, tripods, batteries, jibcranes, lights whatever. Depending on how the money is split with the camera owner dalsa even covers the equipment with insurance and will take care of the maintenance. What really made me interested was ****whenever**** the camera owner wants the camera back to shoot they can just pick it up (if it's not rented). He also said they also sometimes help out the owner with special 'friend deals' on lenses and support equipment when they do their own shooting. The Dalsa rep didn't go into exactly what those deals are, but made it sound like when you consign the camera, they might let you borrow from their huge inventory.

I live in socal so Dalsa is fairly close to me, I asked if I got a Red if they would consign it. He said that unless I was one of the earlier reservation holders they're covered by people they already do business with. Now I wish I made a reservation last year, instead of buying a used DVX100A. At the time I didn't think that I could afford a Red and rent it out because of all the parts and pieces I'd also need to make it work. I guessed it would cost me AT LEAST $30K (which is a lot of money for me) and then I'd have to come up with the annual INSURANCE. So I figured I could afford to start shooting DV right away. Last year at NAB, I had the chance to get a reservation under 100, and if I knew about consigning at Dalsa, I get the feeling that I could start getting my money back as soon as the Red ships.

I wasn't able to get into the Red booth today, because you're required to watch the movie before you can even set foot inside. No wonder it was a 90 minute wait! I'm going to try again first thing in the morning, hopefully the wait won't be as bad. I'll post a comparison of my experience at both booths before I leave NAB.

So since IMG gave his opinion of dalsa without even talking to them, I'll give my OPINION.

Dalsa is very real, the people are very smart, friendly, and they've been doing their thing for years now. The images in their booth are fantastic. My jaw dropped when I saw the 4K images of Anthony Hopkins.

No one I've met can deny that Red's is really flashy, their style looks cool, and the camera looks like it fell to earth from another planet. Tomorrow I'm going to wait until I get to put my hands on the Red camera and ask how to record and playback, and see those images I record in 4K and 2K coming out of the camera and recorder, just like I did at Dalsa! If they can do that for me I'll tell everyone I know that Red is as real as it gets. If not they get the prize for worst tease ever.

----[TJ]----:red_bandana:

[Blair S. Paulsen]

If the point of this thread is RedOne vs Dalsa then it doesn't seem like a fair fight - they're not in the same weight class :biggrin:

Seriously, I am not into bashing products unless they've earned it. Calling the Dalsa a pig is rude, pointing out that it is large and unwieldy for field production work is just stating facts.

I think the more interesting point is that so many folks have an emotional need to "stick it" to the nay-sayers. Perhaps that's just human nature and belongs in the sticks and stones realm.

My preference is to show some class and let those who have not yet seen the light find it for themselves. When they go off on their rants it never bothers me because I KNOW BETTER. In fact, I suspect that the ones who attack the RedOne the most are the ones who have some idea how disruptive it will be.

[Don Woods]

Dude, it doesn't sound like you're talking out of your rear end. You didn't even bother to walk in the booth?!?!? The new camera is right in front and it looked smaller than the Panavision Genesis.

I spent full day at NAB visiting booths, and chatting with the reps. I went to Sony, Band Pro, Vision Research, Panasonic, Apple, Dalsa, Fujinon, Samy's, B&H and several other companies.

Of all the booths I visited I got the best vibes from the reps at Dalsa. The guy I spoke with took me through the whole 4K process, let me operate the equipment, showed me 4K downconverted to 2K, and some 1000 fps shorts shot with the Phantom camera, which was also on display. The rep answered all my questions, and didn't blow me off like the guy I was talking to at Sony.

while I was talking to the Dalsa rep we started talking about Red. I asked the Dalsa rep if they purchased any Reds for the rental department, and he says "No. We're waiting until they produce a final camera so we can do a comprehensive evaluation. But we're not at any rental disadvantage, because we've already got several reservation holders who've agreed to "consign" their cameras for rentals as soon it ships."

I never heard of "consigning" a camera before, and I guess it's something that's not done at every rental house. When Dalsa decides to work with a consignee, they only need a camera body and viewfinder. Then when someone rents the camera they outfit the consignee's camera with their professional PL lenses, matteboxes, follow focuses, tripods, batteries, jibcranes, lights whatever. Depending on how the money is split with the camera owner dalsa even covers the equipment with insurance and will take care of the maintenance. What really made me interested was ****whenever**** the camera owner wants the camera back to shoot they can just pick it up (if it's not rented). He also said they also sometimes help out the owner with special 'friend deals' on lenses and support equipment when they do their own shooting. The Dalsa rep didn't go into exactly what those deals are, but made it sound like when you consign the camera, they might let you borrow from their huge inventory.

I live in socal so Dalsa is fairly close to me, I asked if I got a Red if they would consign it. He said that unless I was one of the earlier reservation holders they're covered by people they already do business with. Now I wish I made a reservation last year, instead of buying a used DVX100A. At the time I didn't think that I could afford a Red and rent it out because of all the parts and pieces I'd also need to make it work. I guessed it would cost me AT LEAST $30K (which is a lot of money for me) and then I'd have to come up with the annual INSURANCE. So I figured I could afford to start shooting DV right away. Last year at NAB, I had the chance to get a reservation under 100, and if I knew about consigning at Dalsa, I get the feeling that I could start getting my money back as soon as the Red ships.

I wasn't able to get into the Red booth today, because you're required to watch the movie before you can even set foot inside. No wonder it was a 90 minute wait! I'm going to try again first thing in the morning, hopefully the wait won't be as bad. I'll post a comparison of my experience at both booths before I leave NAB.

So since IMG gave his opinion of dalsa without even talking to them, I'll give my OPINION.

Dalsa is very real, the people are very smart, friendly, and they've been doing their thing for years now. The images in their booth are fantastic. My jaw dropped when I saw the 4K images of Anthony Hopkins.

No one I've met can deny that Red's is really flashy, their style looks cool, and the camera looks like it fell to earth from another planet. Tomorrow I'm going to wait until I get to put my hands on the Red camera and ask how to record and playback, and see those images I record in 4K and 2K coming out of the camera and recorder, just like I did at Dalsa! If they can do that for me I'll tell everyone I know that Red is as real as it gets. If not they get the prize for worst tease ever.

----[TJ]----:red_bandana:

I think the guys at DALSA are nice people. And I did see the new camera and go through the work flow. To me it seemed compared to RED a pain in the ass. THe only reason I did not get a pic of the new cam was beacuse the 5 people that were in the booth were all hovered around it and I wanted to talk to a rep and not sit around a wait for them to move. There Rental idea is not that unique I have see and other rental houses do it for many years. It is a grate way to introduce an new limited tech. I think Dalsa will be around for the time being and that is a good thing. I think we will see their focus shift to more the speclity side of cameras like the phantom and not so much straight production cameras.

[Tom Lowe]

Dalsa is a great company and yes they are pioneers in 4K, but their camera is ridiculously large, and recording and post are impractical for most shooters.

Maybe RED will jolt them into making the camera smaller, and the data more manageable and end-user friendly.

[Justin O'Neill]

I had a good talk with a Dalsa rep (Cyrus I think?) and he was very helpful even though I was wearing my RED reservation holder badge. He said they will accommodate small budget films which I found interesting. How small he didn't say. Competition is good.