Some questions

[Karl H]

I think we've seen a big step forward today for the aquisition and editing of 4K with RedOne.

Does it concern anyone else that we'll be shooting 4:4:4 4K and then finishing at 4:2:2 1080p? I'm thinking specifically for fx work, grading, compositing. 4:4:4 would be nice.

Im about to ditch my PC for a Mac, especially with Final Touch integrated (very tempting). But I wondered if anyone else has thought of going redcine-cineform on the PC? Cineform is a 4:4:4 1080p codec which also is editable in realtime on a laptop and can be brought into other apps for compositing. I thought Prores might match this. Does anyone think the cineform option could yield higher quality grades than Prores? Did anyone get to see Prores in apple's Color, can it be pushed very far?

I'm guessing it's too early to ask whether Redcode (when avaiable) will be able to go into other apps like AE/Combustion. Can Redcode be taken into Color at 2K at the moment? If it's creating a 2K downsample on the fly from the 4K footage something tells me this might not be compatable with some standard compositing apps.

What has been anounced has been very promising, but 4:2:2 for me seems a bit yesterday compared to how forward thinking the rest of the package is. There hasn't been an awful lot about specifics/workflow as there has about new products today. Maybe the next few days will tell us more.

There are many questions about redcode that I hope we'll get answers to in the next few days, avalability, realtime performance, compatability and also user interface. If we're importing Raw footage (i.e. bypassing Redcine) then there should be some options on how that is displayed/de-mosaiced within FCP with color profiles.

As a seperate question, did the PJ short contain any shots that gave an example of the dynamic range of RED? The milk girls footage was great, but very evenly lit. Were there any extreme shots in this short to show how Red handles the highlights on a sunny day?

Overall this is looking very promising, but my Mac/PC decision still hangs in the air.

If anyone is at Nab reading this, it might be helpful for all of us to list some of the things we'd really like to know from the show.

[Paolo Tinari]

Just this from Cineform till now:
http://cineform.blogspot.com/

[Brook Willard]

You only finish 1080p 4:2:2 if you want to... you can finish to whatever you'd like.

Hell, you could finish to 320x240 if you were so inclined.

ProRes422 isn't the only way... it's just another new way. When you see the list of formats you can export to from REDCINE... well, you'll be happy.

Personally? I like 2K and 4K. I'll probably be sending my work to a colorist as DPX files [or R4K [REDCODE RAW 4K]] files.

[Karl H]

Im not saying prores is the only way, but for a compressed full raster 1080P format at non raid file sizes, I think it is the only option. I wondered if cineform would actually be a better choice on a PC? It's too early for comparisons but I hope they come out.

Alternatively I'm sure Red will have their codec fully implemented into FCP soon but I wondered whether anyone has had a demo of workflow with it yet? After all Raw footage will require a front-end similar to redcine to apply basics settings to demosaic, unless of course they support RGB redcode in FCP in the coming months.

[Kyle Spicer]

Redcine is only Intel based, so you can use it on just about anything new! Your software just needs to be able to handle QT files and you should be golden. So you can dump any rez from Redcine and use them just about anywhere (AE, FCP, Premiere,etc..)

[Karl H]

Coming from the indie filmmaking side I was hoping for too much but my ideal workflow was going to be to edit 2K full raster 4:4:4 in FCP (wavelet based codec) from Red. Im a bit confused why apple have gone for 4:2:2 with prores, for their new standard it seems to smack of old technology.

I know Redcine will export to whatever, but if I switch from PC to Mac that doesnt help if there are no good codecs to go to for final grading. What codec choices do I have for finishing on a non-raided mac?.... From what I'm told DVCPROHD isnt good enough for feature work (not form a 4K source).

On a Mac is the best compromise Prores? which is full raster 4:2:2: DCT based. Maybe I should stay put for the moment and upgrade my PC rather than switching to Mac, but 'Color' is so tempting..... I would like to see some real world uses of prores and color together.

I hope Red will get a redcode RGB codec into FCP as soon as they can as Im sure this would offer the best codec for finishing outside of uncompressed.

I'd be interested to hear how everyone else sees their workflow going for the time being. What formats will you all be finishing in?

anyhow, i didnt want to drag this out... currently if i export with redcince Ive got the option of DV or cinepak..... wicked! :-)

As for the footage, has anyone got any comments on the dynamic range of RED? We all wanted to see outdoor natural/sunlit footage and now some of us have seen it...

[Anders Holck]

The only reason you need extra support for your codec in FCP is to do Realtime effects, and maybe raw processing tricks.
So if you use Redcode RGB as your finishing codec, you dont need anything special just drop your Redcode codec into your Library/Quicktime folder and it's available inside FCP and Color as a editing and output codec.

If you are going for a 2k filmout, you sure want to keep your data in RGB, as multiple YUV-RGB and RGB-YUV linear convertions always degrade your image, and the color subsampling is bad as well.

[Karl H]

ahhh, so there will be a redcode RGB codec avaiable? when? :-) Ive been told that it wont ship until FCS 2.1 or something...

if im using a mac right now, what options do i have?
Is the prores 4:2:2 codec the best I can get right now for fnishing?

[Anders Holck]

I don't know about delivery as I'm not in the loop.
What I would expect is that Redcine and the Redcode quicktime codec is delivered pretty fast.
Then later with a future point update to FCP 6, we get realtime blessing of the Redcode codec and the advanced adaptive realtime RAW.

Right now it doesnt matter as the camera isn't out yet. Depending on when your camera is delivered you might get full FCP support and Redcode RGB from the start.

For an intermediate codec right now, you have:
Uncompressed 10-bit YUV

Blackmagic 10-bit RGB (free 10 bit RGB uncompressed codec. Download from blackmagic)
None 16 RGB (free 16 bit RGBA uncompressed codec)
Microcosm (16 bit RGBA lossless compression codec)
SheerVideo (10-bit RGB lossles compression codec)
Tiff sequence (16/32 bit RGBA with RLA lossless compression)
DPX sequence (16/32 bit RGBA with RLA lossless compression

Next month:
ProRes (10 bit YUV Lossy compression 220mbit)

And sooner or later:
Redcode RGB (10/12 bit RGB Lossy compression)
CineForm Neo 2k Edit or Ingest (10 bit RGB Lossy compression)

So it depends on what you want to do, when and if your system can handle the load.


It has been reported that the advanced RAW support inside FCP will be accopianed by a FXplug that will read the metadate and apply the correct Lut, grade etc.

Although I'm extremely biased, I'd say that there has never been a time where buying a Mac makes more sense that this very year.

[Alex Boothby]

So if you use Redcode RGB as your finishing codec, you dont need anything special just drop your Redcode codec into your Library/Quicktime folder and it's available inside FCP and Color as a editing and output codec.


Surely there will be limitations to this. We know that Redcode Raw will not scale without converting to RGB, I assume that certain FCP features like Smoothcam will not work. Will we be able to dissolve and multi-layer with Redcode RGB?

[Karl H]

Thanks Anders, this is what I was asking for :-)

My camera wont be ready until August but I'd like to get some bits into place, mac or pc, capture card, monitors... but i dont think ill be going uncompressed or image sequences on anything (unless it a small fx shot). Essentially Im lookig for the best file size to quality ratio (realtime) and it looks like Prores, cineform and Redcode are the front runners. I hope they are all availalbe when the camera shups.

the fxplug sounds like what I was hoping for. How CPU taxing a realtime downstream from 4K to 2K is at 4:4:4 with color profiles remains to be seen.

Have any monitoring cards been announced? Support for blackmagic or AJA? (for either redcode,cineform or prores)

And yes, the FCP/color combination alone is luring me to the Mac.... I just want to make sure im not compromising the image quality by being stuck with prores... hopefully its just a few months away.

[David Newman]

CineForm Neo 2k Edit or Ingest (10 bit RGB Lossy compression)

Small correction.

Neo 2K and Prospect 2K are 12-bit RGB. The RGB 444 stuff is nice. Lossy sounds so negative, we are less lossy then HDCAM-SR 4:4:4 (and that is a nice format -- see http://preview.tinyurl.com/2vf8mu.)

[noogooge]

darkline's points are very keen to how the footage from the Red One is going to be worked practically. I am a Mac guy who also use PC intensively. I prefer FCP for editing over Premiere Pro 2, because Premiere Pro 2 is still very clunky in many ways. But according to David Newman said, Premiere Pro 2 has the render engine that FCP needs right now. I grade in FCP and prefer it to some other specialized environment, such as Final Touch, apparently which is "Color" as now. As a colorist, I should be fond of high quality render engine for any cost, but for me, total integration in editing is very important. Also the compositing flexibility of FCP timeline is much better than that of Final Touch.

I found that it's not only me who prefers FCP as a grading environment than Color. The bummer is the engine. More specifically, it's the combination of the render engine and the codec. So far, the combination of FCP's render engine and the codecs have showed serious shortcomings with various bugs. It is great for video grading as it is now, but not for any grading in RGB or any mix involved. Even some FXScript process with RGB processing mess up the HDR YCbCr rendering space.

This should be fixed and improved as a major post-production platform of Red. Even David Newman pointed out that Premiere Pro 2 has better render engine, grading in Premiere Pro 2 is not as powerful as doing it in FCP. It's more about the human factor than the engine, thus it is all about the UI and workability. Using all tools including Nattress plugins available in FCP at current version is already powerful enough for most demanding grading works. Just the render engine is the big barrier to do it.

The requirement is very simple: Supporting RGB 4:4:4 32 bit per channel processing and conversion from/to YCbCr space at 4K resolution plus high quality spatial resampling algorithm.

Then, I can cut Redcode RAW 4K file in FCP, then grade it just there. The result can be exported to any 2K/4K RGB formats or SD/HD video formats from the timeline at its possible highest quality. This is the workflow many people have expected. This is the workflow for indies!

About the Cineform codec, I can't find clear differences in its position from RedCode as its completed form expectedly. In that case, if the Cineform codecs are superior to RedCode, it's like just a better codec fails to be adopted by Red product. But if that is the final stage of the development, then that is the end of the case. As a user, *free* Redcode on both OS platform is good. If RedCode is as good as or better than Cineform codecs, it will be welcomed. If RedCode is completely replaced by superior Cineform codec and still free, that would be OK, too. We, users, do not care who's who as if we do not care whether the taxi driver is female or male.

Great thanks to the smart people who brought great tools to the artist!

[Rocco Schult]

Although I'm extremely biased (1), I'd say that there has never been a time where buying a Mac makes more sense that this very year. (2)

You might be right with 1, but you're definitely right with 2 ; )

[Rocco Schult]

Coming from the indie filmmaking side I was hoping for too much but my ideal workflow was going to be to edit 2K full raster 4:4:4 in FCP (wavelet based codec) from Red. Im a bit confused why apple have gone for 4:2:2 with prores, for their new standard it seems to smack of old technology.




Then, I can cut Redcode RAW 4K file in FCP, then grade it just there. The result can be exported to any 2K/4K RGB formats or SD/HD video formats from the timeline at its possible highest quality. This is the workflow many people have expected. This is the workflow for indies!

I think you can exactly go that way, at least in the first stage. FCP can produce 2k proxies in realtime, though after my question, they said its not necessary, as redcode can be played back natively. So fetch your rushes, edit full "raster" or whatever, just FULL, and then export to whatever you want if you need to.
What I am still questioning is how color handles redraw. It can certainly play it back, but how does it handle the correction ?
IN case it handles (treats) it nicely, depending on the project it could be SHOOT-FCPit-GO. Probably not suitable for long projects, but everything smaller than 30 minutes program maybe.


As for the footage, has anyone got any comments on the dynamic range of RED? We all wanted to see outdoor natural/sunlit footage and now some of us have seen it...

Unfortunately, the pictures have been very well lit and also colorcorrected. And you couldn't guess where post was involved or not.
For me, exactly that part you ask for is hard to describe and was the only dissapointing fact at all over this demo.


Im a bit confused why apple have gone for 4:2:2 with prores, for their new standard it seems to smack of old technology.

I know Redcine will export to whatever, but if I switch from PC to Mac that doesnt help if there are no good codecs to go to for final grading. What codec choices do I have for finishing on a non-raided mac?.... From what I'm told DVCPROHD isnt good enough for feature work (not form a 4K source).

Wheres the difference between Mac and PC in terms of codecs ? That really shouldn't be the reason to decide.
And ProRes422 is there for usage with additional bandwidth savings, while preserving good old 422 quality. Ideal for TV stuff. what there do you need 444 for ? Look at the new AJA box with HD-I/O from Firewire800, working even with a MBP ? That alone is nice new app for ProRes422, though I am not a fan of new codecs all the time. But his one might be of good use at last.
Regarding DVCproHD you might be right - there have been lots of people working with it from who I heard the same - but no own experience here.



As a user, *free* Redcode on both OS platform is good. If RedCode is as good as or better than Cineform codecs, it will be welcomed. If RedCode is completely replaced by superior Cineform codec and still free, that would be OK, too. We, users, do not care who's who as if we do not care whether the taxi driver is female or male.

Don't know if I get your point right. However, the codecs, imho share common technologie, how much common might be today. They both do wavelet beased RAW compression, no ? Thats a new technique of how to do that, and both have the knwoledge to do it. Its like Microsoft DV codec and Apple DV codec.
Anyway, Codecs have to be paid in one way or another and we pay for the code with the camera. And as its to be used with the cam, it should be free as a reader for everyone to share material for VFX, grading, whatever.



Great thanks to the smart people who brought great tools to the artist!

You are so right!