Build 16v3.2.1 sync w/DIVA & 16G CF!

[Mark L. Pederson]

Part 1

Earlier this week - we ran a series of tests for a specific project that would be using the DIVA 5 audio recorder with multiple cameras, all needing to have matching TC.

Previously, in our build 15 tests, we found an sync offset so we were anxious to re-test. Here's some notes from our test - I'll break it up over a few posts.

Also, Deanan had sent us prototype 16G CF cards for the Offhollywood team to try to break (we couldn't - and yes, we hammered hard) - so, we thought we would throw that into the mix and shoot takes 9 minutes + with head and tail slates 4K RC36 2:1 + 16x9 to CF.

First, the DIVA, DB and audio cables:

Never worked with the Diva. I called up one of our favorite sound department guys - Brian Miklas - and asked him to come over and play.

Peter Schneider co-owner of Gotham Sound (http://www.gothamsound.com/) was kind enough to make a "house call" and bring the Diva 5 over and give us all a "Diva for Dummies". If you don't know Gotham Sound, you should. They are the best of the best - the sell and rent gear and provide support to the A-List and Indies alike.

One thing we discovered back when audio appeared on the Red - was that RED's line level input was based on a the philosophy that "line" is voltage based and 0dB Tone is 0.775V RMS - this is the "line is line" philosophy.

The problem with that is, the voltage output of various mixers is going to be slightly different - and folks that send line to HD cameras are just use to sending -20bd tone - check the level on the camera, ADJUST THE LINE LEVEL ON THE CAMERA to match - and go. On the RED, you can't adjust line level input.

We also discovered in earlier tests, when you send a -20db tone to Line on the RED it over-modulates. The cables sent by RED were padded -4db - but our tests indicated what was needed to "nail" -20db tone in - so that it was -20db when extracted - was in fact much closer to -10db.

i am not an audio expert by any means (be nice fellow experts!) - but I know I would rather be UNDER than OVER - and in the real world of field recording - working with only a -4db pad on the Red means you stand a very good chance of over-modulating.

We had Gotham make us -10db pads which we have using on almost all of our shoots.

Now, the funny thing here is - ZAXCOM (makers of the DIVA) have the same exact thinking as RED. The LINE output of the Diva, is in fact, -10db compared to typical recording devices.

So, the first thing we did, was send -20db tone to the RED with NON-PADDED cables. And, as expected, dead on.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Part 2

Next, the Synchbox

We wanted to test TC Jam on a syncbox. There are "two usual suspects" in the land of syncboxes that everyone seems to use:

The Ambient Lockit (http://www.gothamsound.com/main.shtml?page=catalog&scmd=DISP&itemid=SAMBLOCKIT) and the Deneke Decode SB-T (http://www.denecke.com/Products/tcgenerators/tcgenerators.htm#SBT)

I asked for opinions on another thread here on REDUSER and got folks saying they had success with both units. So I asked Peter - he said that although both boxes do the same thing, they are in fact, VERY different "under the hood."

A fundamental difference is that the Ambients need to be "tuned" to match each other with the Clockit Controller (http://www.ambient.de/produkte/timecode/controller/controller_e.html)(Ambient's master timecode generator) - You do not need to "tune" the Denecke SBT.

So, if you just go and rent a few Ambients, jam them all and go (without tuning to the Clockit Controller) you will most likely have issues.

He felt strongly that the Denecke was better fit. So we did our tests withe Denecke SBT.

Jumping ahead here, we tested WITH the Tri-Level into the Genlock on the RED and WITHOUT - just to see if there was a difference - Peter suspected there would not be because as it's not video tape - the cameras clock should maintain without Tri-Level. Peter's instincts were correct - and we did not see ANY difference with, or without TRI-LEVEL connected.

So, if you are not phasing shutters for 3D, etc. - you can go with the new Denecke SB3 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/562544-REG/Denecke_SB_3_SB_3_Syncbox_Time_Code_Generator.html ) - it has a 5-pin Lemo option, no TriLevel - $500!!

** there is a 5 pin option for the SBT - we just went BNC to the ET BOB.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Part 3

Shooting

We wanted to compare the audio that was single system (teathered to camera from Line out of Diva) to the actual WAV file the Diva recorder.

We still had the ET handheld proto - so before sending it back to ET - Eric Camp, our Director of Camera Operations, (Eric is the guy the went around the world with Claudio Miranda shooting with our REDs in five countries - more on that soon - and he techs our higher profile stuff and trains our techs and keeps our little babies clean and mean) he is truly a Red rockstar.

Eric shot full 16G takes on the new CF cards - handheld - walk and talks with one of our interns chatting away around Soho and Little Italy. When the Edge code hit 9 minutes he'd call for the tail slate and Peter would jump in and tail slate.

We fed the TC from the Diva to the Denecke - jammed - and disconnected the TC.

(notice the construction - YES we are building!)

[David Battistella]

Mark,

This is outstanding. I thank you for being so generous with the community and sharing all of your results.

It's a big help.

David

[Mark L. Pederson]

Part 4

The Results

We offloaded the media from the CFs and the Diva. Besides the DVDram - the Diva has a FW400 port - you plug a drive it - it formats FAT32 and transfers the files - SUPER SLICK.

Also, the DIVA records it's "raw" audio in a proprietary file format and does not "process" into files until you tell it to. (the DIVA records one file every time you start and stop)

So, you can select how many tracks, and other options after doing all your recording. Even create different outputs from the "raw audio master".

I kept thinking - this thing (the Diva) is the "RED" of hard disc audio recorders!

I loaded the QT wrappers into FCP - loaded the WAV files.

Dragged a shot into the timeline.

In the Bin, I highlight the QT, highlight the WAV file that matches the clip - right click - "merge clips" - select "timecode" in the pop-up window - and BANG new merged clip.

I turned on the waveforms, to compare in-camera audio (hard fed to Red via LINE) to the Diva audio -

I scrubbed to the tail slate - and I there she was. Frame accurate. On every take we shot. And the audio is PRISTINE.

We are always testing stuff here, and I'll try to share more of these things as time permits.

I want to thank Peter from GOTHAM SOUND and Brian Miklas for popping over and helping do the tests - I am totally sold on the Denecke, and the DIVA. It plays nice with RED.

[David Battistella]

sticky this up!
david

[Kevin Wild]

Thanks for the great testing. Anybody do something similar with any Sound Devices equipment?

[soundonred]

Thanks for taking the time to do the test and sharing. Used the same set up for RED, Cantar and SB-T, had good results too. Video post said sync was good.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

you are talking about the DEVA V, 13k USD, right?

http://www.coffeysound.com/news/deva5.html

[Mark L. Pederson]

you are talking about the DEVA V, 13k USD, right?

http://www.coffeysound.com/news/deva5.html

Yes that is the one.
http://www.gothamsound.com/main.shtml?page=catalog&scmd=DISP&itemid=SZAXDEVAV

[Jason Diamond]

what was the audio quality comparison between the Diva audio and Direct to RED Line IN baked?

[Mark L. Pederson]

what was the audio quality comparison between the Diva audio and Direct to RED Line IN baked?

I'll dig into the waveforms next week - but the Line sounded amazing - the waveforms really look identical.

I'll give the files to "audio snob" and report back -

[Jason Diamond]

great!
we're starting a feature in 2 weeks and planned on recording directly to the cam as we have always done.
we get great consistent results but its always nice to see options and how they stack up.
Plus we're shooting the feature in Build 16. very excited lots of available light shooting and alot at twilight and nighttime in nyc

[Mark L. Pederson]

great!
we're starting a feature in 2 weeks and planned on recording directly to the cam as we have always done.
we get great consistent results but its always nice to see options and how they stack up.
Plus we're shooting the feature in Build 16. very excited lots of available light shooting and alot at twilight and nighttime in nyc

16v3.2.1 rock solid for us. LOVE it.

[Jason Diamond]

yeah we're super stoked. ive been out of town for almost 3 weeks so no build 16 til i get back in case the cam had to go out which it did.
but first thing this week its a sweet 16 :)

[glennzax]

I am very happy to see the Deva output level exactly match the Red camera. We developed the Deva to be a very flexable mutitrack mixer/recorder.

I hope its capabilities are a very good match for the Red camera. The Deva has a wide choice of time code and sample rate options that should make it compatable with any production environment. Up to 16 tracks are available with Deva 16.

Time code offset and audio delay in single sample increments have now been added to the Deva for perfect sync in any situation.

I am now a member of this forum and will look in from time to time to answer as many audio questions as I can.

Glenn Sanders
President Zaxcom Inc. (AKA The Deva people)

[Tai Wah Lim]

I am very happy to see the Deva output level exactly match the Red camera. We developed the Deva to be a very flexable mutitrack mixer/recorder.

I hope its capabilities are a very good match for the Red camera. The Deva has a wide choice of time code and sample rate options that should make it compatable with any production environment. Up to 16 tracks are available with Deva 16.

Time code offset and audio delay in single sample increments have now been added to the Deva for perfect sync in any situation.

I am now a member of this forum and will look in from time to time to answer as many audio questions as I can.

Glenn Sanders
President Zaxcom Inc. (AKA The Deva people)

Glenn, i was trying to get a quote to buy one Diva quite urgently for a shoot. My usual A/V contact in CA could not get his local distributor to respond. Who should we contact to get one to Singapore. Lim

[Shawn Booth]

Thank you Mark. Thank you to your team as well.

Aloha

[Tai Wah Lim]

Part 3

Shooting

We fed the TC from the Diva to the Denecke - jammed - and disconnected the TC.

(notice the construction - YES we are building!)

Mark L Pederson, I am not an audio person so is a little confused here. You explained earlier that unless if there a need to do video sync say a 3D, there is really not need to use the tri-cycle. Your connection will be to feed the TC from the Diva to the Denecke SB-3 - where?, which is connected to the Genlock using the BNC out instead of TC in on the camera using the lemo version? and then jammed them together? and then disconnect the TC - from where - connection from the Diva to the Denecke?

Appreciate if you can elaborate more on this - Lim

[glennzax]

Glenn, i was trying to get a quote to buy one Diva quite urgently for a shoot. My usual A/V contact in CA could not get his local distributor to respond. Who should we contact to get one to Singapore. Lim


We have a few dealers in Asia that are listed on our Web site. If you can not find a suitable dealer call or Email Colleen at Zaxcom.com and she can help.

Glenn

[James Brundige]

Thanks for these great workflow suggestions.

Now let's hear about a mixer/camera interface that will work without an extra $20K of equipment. What is the best protocol for using a common mixer to feed the red? Are the Red padded cables sufficient, or do they compromise signal to noise ratios?

[Tai Wah Lim]

Mark L Pederson, I am not an audio person so is a little confused here. You explained earlier that unless if there a need to do video sync say a 3D, there is really not need to use the tri-cycle. Your connection will be to feed the TC from the Diva to the Denecke SB-3 - where?, which is connected to the Genlock using the BNC out instead of TC in on the camera using the lemo version? and then jammed them together? and then disconnect the TC - from where - connection from the Diva to the Denecke?

Appreciate if you can elaborate more on this - Lim

Mark?

[Mark L. Pederson]

Mark?

You can get the deneke with a lemo 5 pin option. The unit we had did not have lemo. It had BNC for TC in, BNC for TC out, and BNC to TRI-level out.

We had a lemo 5 pin to BNC made for TC out of the camera to TC in of the Deneke.

[Tai Wah Lim]

You can get the deneke with a lemo 5 pin option. The unit we had did not have lemo. It had BNC for TC in, BNC for TC out, and BNC to TRI-level out.

We had a lemo 5 pin to BNC made for TC out of the camera to TC in of the Deneke.

Thanks Mark. Still confuse - are you using the Camera TC out ie Camera as the Master clock - ie B16 3.2.1 TC out feature? Why connects through the Denecke and then to the Zaxcom TC in? and then you mentioned disconnect - which ? Denecke to Zaxcom. Can't you just connect the Camera TC to Zaxcom to sync? Lim

[Mark L. Pederson]

Thanks Mark. Still confuse - are you using the Camera TC out ie Camera as the Master clock - ie B16 3.2.1 TC out feature? Why connects through the Denecke and then to the Zaxcom TC in? and then you mentioned disconnect - which ? Denecke to Zaxcom. Can't you just connect the Camera TC to Zaxcom to sync? Lim

TC FROM the Zaxcom to the Deneke - disconnect - Deneke to RED - but now, yes, with the new build you can go the other way ... if you are so inclined.

[Tai Wah Lim]

TC FROM the Zaxcom to the Deneke - disconnect - Deneke to RED - but now, yes, with the new build you can go the other way ... if you are so inclined.

Mark, thanks for the clarification - Lim

[farroutpro]

Thanks for these great workflow suggestions.

Now let's hear about a mixer/camera interface that will work without an extra $20K of equipment. What is the best protocol for using a common mixer to feed the red? Are the Red padded cables sufficient, or do they compromise signal to noise ratios?

Please read this test conducted by Sound Devices
http://www.sounddevices.com/notes/cameras/red-one/

[Audio SMC]

What frame rate (RED, DEVA & Syncboxes) did you use for your test ?

[Mark L. Pederson]

What frame rate (RED, DEVA & Syncboxes) did you use for your test ?

everything we did was 23.98 fps for a specific project - we didn't have time to do 25, etc.

[fatfatjames]

Glenn, i was trying to get a quote to buy one Diva quite urgently for a shoot. My usual A/V contact in CA could not get his local distributor to respond. Who should we contact to get one to Singapore. Lim

Hi... you can get a Deva from team 108 now come in 3 version deva fusion, deva 5.8, and deva 16... take 30 days for delivery...

James

Location Sound Recordist
Singapore

[araudio]

Thanks again for taking the time to do the test and sharing. Used the same set up for RED, FOSTEX PD-606 and SB-2 and had great results too at 24 fps. Video post said sync happened.

[Jose Luis Diaz]

We have done many, many tests and always we get sound a head of image a variable amount of time ranging from a few miliseconds to more than one frame. The average would be sound 1 frame a head than image.
The tests we have done was always at true 24fps with a TC of 24fps. (no 23.976fps)
FCP is version 6.0.3.
Sound recorder is Sound Devices 744 with firmware 2.40.
During shooting we fed the same audio signal to 744 and to RED.
After we ingest both (image with its "guide track" and sound recorded into 744) in FCP and merging clips (sound and image) sound from 744 was always that variable amount of time a head of image.
The same results were got being master TC camera, sound recorder or Slate.
No trilevel generator were used.
We could not get the precission seen in the image Mark L. Pederson from Offhollywood Studios shown in #5 post in this thread (page 1).
We suspect that Red doesn't have its shutter sincronized with the start of TC frame.
Any one had this problem?
Thanks.

José Luis

[Stuart English]

A few questions that will help get an answer to this issue...

What firmware Build and version number are you using on the camera ?

Was the camera's audio track sound in sync with the video, or was it in sync with the Sound Devices unit, or neither?

Are we certain that your version of FCP is able to run in true 24.00, and if it is, are you certain that it was running in true 24.00?

[Jose Luis Diaz]

Thanks Stuart for answering so fast.

a) Firmware build 16 version number (3.2.5).
b) Yes, camera's audio track sound was in sync with video. Sound Devices' audio was always around a frame ahead of image.
c) Actually, I'm a sound guy. I'm not that familiar with FCP. But I saw what the FCP assistant did. And he chose 24fps in sequence settings. Not 23.976 that was another option. So I guess FCP v 6.0.3 (the last one is 6.0.4) is able to work at 24 fps and 23.976 fps as well. And I'm certain that it WAS running in true 24fps.
But it is hard to be certain and conclusive to your question. In USA everybody says 24 fps meaning 23.976 fs. So a google search will return many confusing results.

Thanks again, Stuart.

José Luis

[Sound Sorcerer]

Maybe your Slate is drifting, if you're using a Denecke Slate take it to get tuned, if using an Ambient slate you can fine tune it with a ACC-501 controller... Also the Denecke slate has a 1 frame UP function, make sure is disabled.
You can also download Wave Agent (http://www.sounddevices.com/products/waveagent.htm) from the Sound Devices site and compare if timecode on file's metadata are the same to those on the slate.

[Jose Luis Diaz]

Thanks Sound Sorcerer for your answer.
We got that out of sync (arround 1 frame) just connecting the camera TC out to 744 TC in. Without any slate.
If we change that flow of TC, 744 is master and Red is slave, a cable from 744 TC out to Red TC in, we didn't get accurancy. Always around 1 frame sound is ahead when we import and merge clips in FCP.
Wave Agent say the correct TC.
Also in FCP the assistant show me that time code of image and sound are equal: Same TC in both image and sound. BUT the clap in sound is one frame ahead of the slate in image.
One posibility I'm thinking is that Red's shutter is not sincronized with TC either generated or readed by Red.
Did any of you try to shoot in True 24, not 23.976?
Did any of you detected any out of sync like we did?
Ah! There is no drift into the takes we have shot. I mean, the lenght of each shot we recorded was of 2 minutes. One clap at the begining and another one at the end of the shot. If the first clap in 1 frame ahead of image the last one is also 1 frame ahead.

Thanks for your help and time dedicated to my problem.

José Luis

[Stuart English]

One posibility I'm thinking is that Red's shutter is not sincronized with TC either generated or readed by Red.

That could be an issue, is the RED ONE video genlocked as well as receiving external timecode?

[Layy Long]

Stuart,

I am gearing up for a Red show in Shreveport La.

I am the sound mixer recording on a Zaxcom Deva, running TC at 23.976, jamming to ambient lockit boxes and showing Denecke ts-3 slates.

In our test running 2 cams in c-jam on the cameras and genlocked. 1 Camera was dead on frame accurate and the other camera was jerky sometimes ahead sometimes behind. Do you think this could be solved by tuning the lockit boxes with the Ambient controller?

TIA,

Larry Long

[blacker]

very helpful !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thanx much!! god bless you

[blacker]

Thanks Stuart for answering so fast.

a) Firmware build 16 version number (3.2.5).
b) Yes, camera's audio track sound was in sync with video. Sound Devices' audio was always around a frame ahead of image.
c) Actually, I'm a sound guy. I'm not that familiar with FCP. But I saw what the FCP assistant did. And he chose 24fps in sequence settings. Not 23.976 that was another option. So I guess FCP v 6.0.3 (the last one is 6.0.4) is able to work at 24 fps and 23.976 fps as well. And I'm certain that it WAS running in true 24fps.
But it is hard to be certain and conclusive to your question. In USA everybody says 24 fps meaning 23.976 fs. So a google search will return many confusing results.

Thanks again, Stuart.

José Luis

my god !..."In USA everybody says 24 fps meaning 23.976 fs. So a google search will return many confusing results."

so... I don't know 24fps is it meaning 23.976 fs in China..

btw.. can I use fostex fr-2 recorder to link the RED, what time code is need to chose..

thanx.

[Wil Klassen]

Mark, you mention using the 16GB card prototypes with your RED, and if i read right your using B16 3.2.5? We have our 16GB cards and CF reader, but have been hesitant to upgrade to B17 or beta 18, and quite happy with how solid 16 is runnign for us. So my question is did you guys install the new CF reader and use 16GB cards on B16? Or did i misread?

[Mark L. Pederson]

Mark, you mention using the 16GB card prototypes with your RED, and if i read right your using B16 3.2.5? We have our 16GB cards and CF reader, but have been hesitant to upgrade to B17 or beta 18, and quite happy with how solid 16 is runnign for us. So my question is did you guys install the new CF reader and use 16GB cards on B16? Or did i misread?

we had a protoype CF reader to test at that time -

currently - all of our cameras are on 17 - that is what we are shooting all commercial jobs with - we have one test camera on 18 -