Lost 2 Rentals This Week!

[Harry Clark]

OK,
Just venting I suppose. Take it with a grain of salt.
I have a job Mon-Wed this week, big national spot, that they want to edit at the stage as we are shooting. Seems like the perfect Red application, no? Production has been spooked by the editor and we will be shooting with a Genesis to HDCAM SR (now THAT'S a roundabout way to cut on set) My job Thursday-Friday went D-21 because of the very same reason: editors and post people spooking production away from the Red One.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Red Team, give us a nice 1080 "clean" output so that these goofy jobs can benefit from the Red One. Forget about the preview bus... What about a hardware module that replaces the CF module on the side and does a real-time, high-quality debayer with 4:4:4 Dual Link HD-SDI? What about partnering with Sony, or Panasonic, or AJA on this one?
I've lost at least a dozen rentals this way since getting the camera. Editors are the SLOWEST in the world to pick up new skills, or update their systems... so help us on the imaging end by letting us coddle them...
I know it's a Digital Cinema Camera blah blah blah... RAW blah blah blah... but...
Please? Help?
Cheers,
Harry

[Darren Orange]

Can't you get a clean 1080P 4:2:2 out of RED right now? Why would you need anything more if its for broadcast? I might be wrong just a thought.

edit: Better yet....why not just get an extra camera body...to play back the data once you record it. It would for all purposes work the same as a HDCAM SR deck, except for the controls.

[Obin Olson]

ohhh that sucks glad I don't rent mine out:) never been a rental guy myself

[David Mullen ASC]

Can't you get a clean 1080P 4:2:2 out of RED right now? Why would you need anything more if its for broadcast? I might be wrong just a thought.

edit: Better yet....why not just get an extra camera body...to play back the data once you record it. It would for all purposes work the same as a HDCAM SR deck, except for the controls.

You get 720P 4:2:2 out of the camera, and it's just a quick debayering for monitoring purposes that has some artifacts (particularly, some noise).

Using another RED camera as a playback device doesn't work, all you will be reading are the QT files that the camera generates, again, with 720P as your only output option. I'm not sure what the resolutions and formats are of the three sizes of QT files that are generated along with the 4K RAW R3D files, but if 1080P was one of them and it looked acceptable, they could edit with those I suppose. Otherwise they would need to convert the R3D files into 1080P.

[Shawn Nelson]

OK,
Just venting I suppose. Take it with a grain of salt.
I have a job Mon-Wed this week, big national spot, that they want to edit at the stage as we are shooting. Seems like the perfect Red application, no? Production has been spooked by the editor and we will be shooting with a Genesis to HDCAM SR (now THAT'S a roundabout way to cut on set) My job Thursday-Friday went D-21 because of the very same reason: editors and post people spooking production away from the Red One.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Red Team, give us a nice 1080 "clean" output so that these goofy jobs can benefit from the Red One. Forget about the preview bus... What about a hardware module that replaces the CF module on the side and does a real-time, high-quality debayer with 4:4:4 Dual Link HD-SDI? What about partnering with Sony, or Panasonic, or AJA on this one?
I've lost at least a dozen rentals this way since getting the camera. Editors are the SLOWEST in the world to pick up new skills, or update their systems... so help us on the imaging end by letting us coddle them...
I know it's a Digital Cinema Camera blah blah blah... RAW blah blah blah... but...
Please? Help?
Cheers,
Harry

It blows me away the level of techno stupidity that seems to rule at these "upper levels" of the business. There must be some good reason they are so many levels above me, but it's stories like these that give me hope.

[Mark L. Pederson]

It blows me away the level of techno stupidity that seems to rule at these "upper levels" of the business. There must be some good reason they are so many levels above me, but it's stories like these that give me hope.

I can assure you Shawn, the higher you go, the "stupider" it gets.

[Michael Schrengohst]

So how are they going to "digitize" on set? They would need to shoot at the post house. LOL

[Michael Schrengohst]

I can assure you Shawn, the higher you go, the "stupider" it gets.

I would love to be stupid!

[Andrew Walker]

It's funny that it seems that most of these anti Red people are just to stuborn to learn something new. Most of the bitching that I've heard has been people being unfamiliar with a new camera. I think most of these top level people are just use to knowing everything and Red must mess with their heads because it's so easy to deal with the footage...if you know what your doing of course.

[Stuart English]

Using another RED camera as a playback device doesn't work, all you will be reading are the QT files that the camera generates, again, with 720P as your only output option. Otherwise they would need to convert the R3D files into 1080P.

Actually, on Build 16, that's exactly what the camera playback is doing.. creating 1080p from the recorded .R3D files. On Build 15 and earlier its limited to 720p playback from the .R3D files. The QuickTime files are not used by the camera, they are generated by the camera for use by QuickTime enabled computer systems.

[Derek Wiesehahn]

I have found the same thing. Editors are very set in their ways as far as workflow is concerned. They do not like change and will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the Red workflow.

[Mark L. Pederson]

I have found the same thing. Editors are very set in their ways as far as workflow is concerned. They do not like change and will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the Red workflow.

It's a massive amount of "mis-information".

Anyone who read a few posts on Reduser or opened Redcine a few times claims to be a "Red Workflow" expert.

We spend a lot of time - explaining to people what SOMEONE TOLD THEM, how they THINK it works, or what they HEARD - is just WRONG.

Most of the time, we just tell people now, "forget everything you heard, everything you read, this is how we would handle your project, and these are you options."

They stop kicking and screaming pretty quickly when they see how simple it can be.

[Harky Jewett]

Would spitting out to Prores as the cards came in really be that big a deal?

What about just editing with the proxies (providing you could have a tower on the stage)?

Maybe I'm not understanding what they want, but it seems like something could be worked out.


On a similar note, some friends of mine took a trip to a post house for a class and talked to one of their DI guys (won't say the name, but rhymes with Boto-Mem).

The DI guy was talking about digital cinema cameras (his favorite was the Genesis). When he got to the Red, he said "he didn't really want to bash the camera", but then preceded to bash the camera.

He said it was impossible to get an accurate preview of what you're shooting. He claimed the camera shoots "stretched 2K" at best (I really wish I had been there for that gem). But most importantly he said the camera has no post workflow whatsoever.

I have no idea what to do about situations like this, except to say that it will take time for people to learn.

[Dylan Reeve]

In these sorts of situations I feel it would be good for camera owners to have friendly technical editors available to help explain things to other editors and worried post-supervisors who are inexperienced with RED. I know that in Auckland there are a few of us who have been called upon to sooth frayed nerves before a RED shoot.

Even if you know the answers yourself it can help to have a third party available to who can calm the nerves while not seeming to have a vested interest.

[Paul Hazlett]

This has been an ongoing quest since 1080 was lost in the great firmware wars of '07. someone was working on a outboard box before but....

I have played back 1080 from the camera to a pani 17" and the framing is different. I get the look room as well on my monitor which makes for some odd
playback framiing, at least I think its the look room, so no go to record. unless
your shooting with the look room as picture which is coming no?

I just shot player intros for AFL division game and would have loved to show
ESPN the benefits of Red but that kind of turn around is not there for Red.

Scarlet....your wanted on set.

[Mike Prevette]

the most impressive and simplest ways to deal with stuff like this is to arrange a quick demo. Anyone that thinks the Red workflow is anything short of amazing just doesnt know what they are looking at. I've been able to set up effective onset editing several times for clients of differing levels and garnished nothing but awe from clients agencies and post houses. it's just not as complicated as they think it is.

[Mark L. Pederson]

On a similar note, some friends of mine took a trip to a post house for a class and talked to one of their DI guys (won't say the name, but rhymes with Boto-Mem).

The Los Angeles location of Boto-Mem?



The DI guy was talking about digital cinema cameras (his favorite was the Genesis). When he got to the Red, he said "he didn't really want to bash the camera", but then preceded to bash the camera.

He said it was impossible to get an accurate preview of what you're shooting. He claimed the camera shoots "stretched 2K" at best (I really wish I had been there for that gem). But most importantly he said the camera has no post workflow whatsoever.

He's welcome at Offhollywood anytime - I can show him how our 5th "all Red" feature film is moving through post with "no workflow whatsoever."

He's really an HDTI guy - you know - so PRO-GENESIS - with the amazing HD TAPE INTERMEDIATE workflow and all -

[Paul Hazlett]

Would spitting out to Prores as the cards came in really be that big a deal?

What about just editing with the proxies (providing you could have a tower on the stage)?

Maybe I'm not understanding what they want, but it seems like something could be worked out.


On a similar note, some friends of mine took a trip to a post house for a class and talked to one of their DI guys (won't say the name, but rhymes with Boto-Mem).

The DI guy was talking about digital cinema cameras (his favorite was the Genesis). When he got to the Red, he said "he didn't really want to bash the camera", but then preceded to bash the camera.

He said it was impossible to get an accurate preview of what you're shooting. He claimed the camera shoots "stretched 2K" at best (I really wish I had been there for that gem). But most importantly he said the camera has no post workflow whatsoever.

I have no idea what to do about situations like this, except to say that it will take time for people to learn.


Just as the camera was a "scam" in 06 so is the workflow in '08.
patience and arrival of the SDK will make true believers out of the post world.
mark my words...not you Mark Pederson, just a figure of speech.....

[Harry Clark]

Sycophant,
You're "spot-on" with the vested interest comment. Clearly I, as the Red camera owner, have a vested interest. I back off pretty quickly, though, when I see others working on the producers, agency, etc. with the misinformation about the workflow. I don't want to be the guy that pushes a certain camera on EVERYONE for EVERY project. I just want to shoot. It's a bummer I cannot use the Red on the jobs this week, but I'll still get lenses, etc. on for some rental income. Also, owning many different cameras gives my clients lots of options. So I can't really complain. It's just too bad we can't have our cake and eat it too... i.e., have cinema-quality 4K but real-time 1080p.
Red Guy, I guess the plan is to have an additional HDCAM SR deck just for the guy to digitize from (at an additional rental); not sure how that's faster than proxies though! ;)
And Mark is VERY "spot on" with his comments, as usual!
Anyway, I'm over it. But it's worth discussing I guess...
Cheers,
Harry

[Bruce Allen]

The Fotokem bashing is pretty hilarious.

Be aware that there is a difference between their student tour division and the guys doing the high end DI projects.

I too did NOT have a good experience with Fotokem as a student (flex file nightmares, crummy looking dailies, etc). The tour guy was patronizing too.

Since working with them professionally on projects my views took a complete 180 however. People like Jose Parra, John Nicolard etc really know what they are doing.

I'd work with them in a heartbeat.

Yes Mark, I'd work with you in a hearbeat too, of course!

But this bashing just makes Reduser and RED (by association) look stupid and unprofessional, like a bunch of arrogant film students complaining about the company tour. Like me a few years ago.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Wayne D]

hi - i'm an editor......have been doing this for about 15 years.

your biggest problem is that you don't produce a phyiscal medium that we can touch and feel and love. makes us scared.......where do the pretty pictures live? we are strange bunch.

as for any editors reading this - get with the program!
our first RED job came with the usual horror stories from all who threw their (and at most times unwelcomed) comments in. it took us about 4 hours to research, sort and build a pipeline for the project. ran like a dream.

our job is to create stories in whatever medium....so learn your tools!

Team RED - keep pushing the boundries.....love the new toys and the pics are great to work with.

there.........venting over........i feel better now.....

[Kip Hewitt]

OK,
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Red Team, give us a nice 1080 "clean" output so that these goofy jobs can benefit from the Red One. Forget about the preview bus... What about a hardware module that replaces the CF module on the side and does a real-time, high-quality debayer with 4:4:4 Dual Link HD-SDI? What about partnering with Sony, or Panasonic, or AJA on this one?
I've lost at least a dozen rentals this way since getting the camera. Editors are the SLOWEST in the world to pick up new skills, or update their systems... so help us on the imaging end by letting us coddle them...
I know it's a Digital Cinema Camera blah blah blah... RAW blah blah blah... but...


Harry,

I totally understand where you are coming from. I too have lost a few good jobs because of a nervous post-production team. But I have also won just as many by putting in the long hours convincing producers/editors that the post workflow is sound. I go to their office, I install RedAlert, and I walk them through the whole process step by step.

After the shoot wraps I be sure to make myself available for any tech support assistance they may need. Which, surprisingly, is never a big deal.

RED has done a pretty stand-up job giving us the tools to compete in the real world. I just think it's the least we can do to get out there and do a little missionary work now and again.

-99

[Jeff Kilgroe]

the most impressive and simplest ways to deal with stuff like this is to arrange a quick demo. Anyone that thinks the Red workflow is anything short of amazing just doesnt know what they are looking at. I've been able to set up effective onset editing several times for clients of differing levels and garnished nothing but awe from clients agencies and post houses. it's just not as complicated as they think it is.

Demos are definitely the way to go. The only problem I've had with doing demos is that I can't always demo to the right people. Post people -- editors, colorists, are the ones that need to show up to see how it works and they're the ones who typically don't show up, usually in the wake of some lame excuse. Only to later be the ones who complain about RED throughout the project. On the brighter side of things, the ones who take a moment and learn how it works, quickly become converts.

I'm not very high up on the ladder of production, I kinda consider myself a bottom-feeder. But I've witnessed incomprehensible amounts of stupidity. Stupid follows money like a little lost puppy that you can't break from pissing on your nice persian rug. ...It's been that way with any industry I've ever involved myself in.

[Harry Clark]

99,
You're right. I have been a crummy evangalist. But my style is a bit more passive; I offer up the Red One, say how great it is, and then get the call, "well, the post team says they've had trouble with Red" and I back off. D-21? OK, whatever. My HDX-900 with my Pro-35? OK, whatever.
I love the Red One. I don't want to shoot with anything else, really I don't. But I can't just be the "Red Guy". It's their project; it's their money; it's their call.
In one year we'll all be laughing about it. But for now, it sometimes burns me. And it's not fair.
But like I said, I'm over it. ;)
Cheers,
Harry

[Mark L. Pederson]

D-21? OK, whatever. My HDX-900 with my Pro-35? OK, whatever.
I love the Red One. I don't want to shoot with anything else, really I don't. But I can't just be the "Red Guy". It's their project; it's their money; it's their call.
In one year we'll all be laughing about it. But for now, it sometimes burns me. And it's not fair.
But like I said, I'm over it. ;)
Cheers,
Harry

Harry -

everyone that I know that knows you, likes to work with you - you work all the time - you own an arsenal of gear - you are doing just fine.

By the time we have our Epics - we'll swap these stories and laugh our asses off -

you know, I remember very clearly - when people were terrified to edit "non-linear" - and everybody talked about how editing with a computer would "ruin" the art of editing - Lightworks/Avid - it was DRAMA -

[Harky Jewett]

The Fotokem bashing is pretty hilarious.

Be aware that there is a difference between their student tour division and the guys doing the high end DI projects.

I too did NOT have a good experience with Fotokem as a student (flex file nightmares, crummy looking dailies, etc). The tour guy was patronizing too.


Yes, Fotokem is notorious for not treating students all that well. (I gotta say, I loved Deluxe and their student price beat Fotokem's to boot). Your point, about the difference between the work they do for students and their high end stuff is well-taken though.

That said, people who had come on set, seen the Red working, seen what the footage looked like, and had become instant fans, left that tour with serious second doubts. It can be frustrating...

[David Battistella]

Most of the time, we just tell people now, "forget everything you heard, everything you read, this is how we would handle your project, and these are you options."

They stop kicking and screaming pretty quickly when they see how simple it can be.

This is absolutely true. RED is actually really simple, it's everyone who has been told what it is instead of actually "seeing" how wonderful the system is that seem to be a problem.

We've spent MANY MANY hours trying to let people in this city SEE and UNDERSTAND how excellent the system is.

Post Workflow is the NUMBER ONE issue that everyone wants to know about and because it is a bit different than what people are used to. If the RED had a simple clean feed out the HD SDI port it would shut a lot of people up.

Most people are taking a video tap out recording it and doing some rough edits or looking at stuff for composting. Some think it is still simpler to do this from other cameras. If RED sent a CLEAN output option out the side of the camera it would help solve some of these issues.

I am not agreeing with the people who demand this and I am very confident about putting the RED IN ANY SITUATION, it's just that not everyone is as forward thinking as many of the minds here.

David

[David Mullen ASC]

Actually, on Build 16, that's exactly what the camera playback is doing.. creating 1080p from the recorded .R3D files. On Build 15 and earlier its limited to 720p playback from the .R3D files. The QuickTime files are not used by the camera, they are generated by the camera for use by QuickTime enabled computer systems.

So the live image is 720P but the played-back image is 1080P now with Build 16? Why isn't the live image also 1080P then?

[david farland]

Why isn't the live image also 1080P then?

Everyone asks that!!
I guess once build 16 wears off, people will renew their requests for this....know I will. There was a hint it was in the pipeline.
But your other point of how much noise and how much it's debayered is as important.
Obviously (hopefully) high on Red's design list for this area.

So, will the live image be 1080p in build 17?

D

[TedRed]

This all seems very strange to me, when you can shoot RED, and load the CF card media onto a Vanilla Mac Pro, or Mac Book Pro, and do an offline edit right on the set with the Proxies, without any rendering at all. I see jobs do this all the time, during breaks they load up footage and play it, and sometimes edit, time permitting. On a 17" MBP they can play the 1k files in real time and edit those -the quality is fine, and if they want they can render out to ProRes to see higher quality. And if they have a tower with a small Raid attached and a Kona 3 card they can edit the 2k and get very good quality images to cut with right away... It's just a education issue that people don't think this can be done, and feel they need 1080p tape recording on the set to do an edit. I spend part of almost every day on the education front... but with the amount of RED shooting, it always seems like there is more needed... We need more evangelsts to show the studios, and agency producers how this works. I can not tell you how many meetings I've had to "show people the light" it's fun when they get it.

+ Ted

[jimhare]

I imagine because the camera is using all it's power to record the image. When not recording, it can process more of the signal at the same time.

Just a guess but would make sense.

[jbeale]

So the live image is 720P but the played-back image is 1080P now with Build 16? Why isn't the live image also 1080P then?

Note (per Red Build 16 manual) that the 1080P image area is not the same as the 720P image. The 1080P output shows a cropped version of the full 4k. I assume so that they could do a simple 2:1 downscale from 3840 to 1920 pixels, and avoid doing any debayer in-camera.

[Dylan Reeve]

We're a weird bunch us editors. We like to have a tape on a shelf at the end of the day, no question. We see the weird shit our edit applications do, and we're a little uncomfortable without the safety blanket of being able to recapture if it all goes cockeyed.

That said, many of us are also geeks, and new technology is always inviting. RED presents a great opportunity, and it's one that some of us are happier to investigate than others. Many 'dramatic' editors are very unwilling to get into technical stuff, and RED can certainly seem that way, but if you can provide them a little support they'll probably be okay with it. All they want is pictures to edit, they don't want to worry about file names, or codecs, or conversion, or anything else.

[Darren Orange]

We're a weird bunch us editors. We like to have a tape on a shelf at the end of the day, no question. We see the weird shit our edit applications do, and we're a little uncomfortable without the safety blanket of being able to recapture if it all goes cockeyed.
.


So what about LTO? That should work just fine.

[Dylan Reeve]

I think those things, and multiple copies on hard drives, and redundant network storage will help :)

[Mark Toia]

Everything will change over time...

I sent a HD AD to air from my laptop, H264 1080 about 90 meg.

Couldn't see a scratch of deference on the telly.

All this mumbo jumbo RED voodoo stuff will just be the standard to work in , in about 12 months.

I have no problems with it.
The post house are just scared because it bins there 3 million dollar Telecine chains and there 200k SR tape decks etc.....

It's all just part of the corse of life. I think alot of us are just all to impatient.

RED is just a little to early, to smart and to good all at once.

Bless there hearts.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

It's a massive amount of "mis-information".

Anyone who read a few posts on Reduser or opened Redcine a few times claims to be a "Red Workflow" expert.

We spend a lot of time - explaining to people what SOMEONE TOLD THEM, how they THINK it works, or what they HEARD - is just WRONG.

Most of the time, we just tell people now, "forget everything you heard, everything you read, this is how we would handle your project, and these are you options."

They stop kicking and screaming pretty quickly when they see how simple it can be.

So true. I spend so much energy trying to debunk what people "have heard"

[Thor Wixom]

This all seems very strange to me, when you can shoot RED, and load the CF card media onto a Vanilla Mac Pro, or Mac Book Pro, and do an offline edit right on the set with the Proxies, without any rendering at all. I see jobs do this all the time, during breaks they load up footage and play it, and sometimes edit, time permitting. On a 17" MBP they can play the 1k files in real time and edit those -the quality is fine, and if they want they can render out to ProRes to see higher quality. And if they have a tower with a small Raid attached and a Kona 3 card they can edit the 2k and get very good quality images to cut with right away... It's just a education issue that people don't think this can be done, and feel they need 1080p tape recording on the set to do an edit. I spend part of almost every day on the education front... but with the amount of RED shooting, it always seems like there is more needed... We need more evangelsts to show the studios, and agency producers how this works. I can not tell you how many meetings I've had to "show people the light" it's fun when they get it.

+ Ted

I love your guts, Ted, and all the guys at Red. I appreciate that you made a workflow available from the beginning for the majority who typically use Macs. My clients (most of them are on Macs) appreciate it, too.

I'm really looking forward to the SDK, and the ability to edit in an environment that I feel more comfortable with (Windows and Premiere).

Thanks for all the hard work. Godspeed.

-Thor

[Darren Orange]

How is a LTO tape any different than a HDCAM SR tape....but better...

For all purposes... CF to LTO should be better than strait to HDCAM SR and after all thats two backups if you keep the CF.

[Jeff Coatney]

If you guys had $500,000+ in brand new tape-based equipment leases sitting in your facility when the Red showed up, believe me, you would have "workflow issues" too.

There is a SIGNIFICANT, albeit un-organized, de-facto campaign on the part of many Post facilities to sully Red's reputation. This is part of the natural shake-out that will eventually cut a swath through the Post sector. I was surprised to discover that a supposedly Red-friendly facility (which I shall not name) was suddenly very eager to offer my client preferred rates on Genesis, stating they preferred the workflow and undermined the Red, right in front of my business partner, after practically begging us to bring our clients through there on a tour to see the Red workflow. Obviously, I will not go back, nor will I use them for any other services.

I take this as good news, however. Yes, it's unfortunate and petty, but I think it is safe to assume that anyone who tries to undermine Red now, has an agenda and I would not trust their opinion. Some Post houses are scared of the power Red puts in the hands of the editor.

There's still a lot of money to be made off of Producers that are reluctant to shoot Red. But the fleecing won't last long, Producers will demand the higher-quality and savings Red can give them (when its used by a DP with Red experience) once they discover how much money they're leaving on the table.

We may yet suffer lost rentals through ignorance or malice, but the Post house that doesn't cater to Red will find itself in a narrowly focused market and unable to attract new clients. That vicious little huntress Scarlet will see to that.

I can assure you there are very savvy and supremely capable Post houses that have embraced Red. I am happy to know they're out there and will still be there in two years. Be patient, the camera has yet to fully launch. Build 16 and the upcoming SDK will kick things into overdrive. Maybe then Ted can cash in his frequent flier miles and take a vacation.

[Jimmy Gitonga]

One of the things I'm enjoying is the legacy jump that keeps happening to us in Africa. In the mobile telephony we've totally jumped past copper.

In Kenya, we have these guys who want to "come down" from Europe and the US and "grab" some shots of the "Mara". So I have this videographer (http://www.realitymediaonline.com/)friend who has lost a number of jobs because some of his clients would like the HDCAM. After taking a look at the RED and watching RED Mythbusters,"... really all we have to do is get RED and we are future-proof, eh?"

We have a full feature shot and is being edited here, with me throwing a word here and there. I hope to get Crimson, and with the FCP LOT, I think most editing can be done on this, on set and off. :nerd:

[Torrey Loomis]

Darren,

LTO-3A is a data-based tape, not a timecode based tape. So, you can use LTO to archive video, but also audio, pics, even scripts and other media like PDF's.

Its way easier to pull an item off LTO and manipulate it than cue up an HDCAM deck with FCP and re-digitize your media.

[gbalaji]

This all seems very strange to me, when you can shoot RED, and load the CF card media onto a Vanilla Mac Pro, or Mac Book Pro, and do an offline edit right on the set with the Proxies, without any rendering at all. I see jobs do this all the time, during breaks they load up footage and play it, and sometimes edit, time permitting. On a 17" MBP they can play the 1k files in real time and edit those -the quality is fine, and if they want they can render out to ProRes to see higher quality. And if they have a tower with a small Raid attached and a Kona 3 card they can edit the 2k and get very good quality images to cut with right away... It's just a education issue that people don't think this can be done, and feel they need 1080p tape recording on the set to do an edit. I spend part of almost every day on the education front... but with the amount of RED shooting, it always seems like there is more needed... We need more evangelsts to show the studios, and agency producers how this works. I can not tell you how many meetings I've had to "show people the light" it's fun when they get it.

+ Ted

Ted,

The so called editing with proxy is just for show and not worth the real edit. When i apply a simple effect its gone green screen after rendering.So the proxy editing itself is a reference edit of a referenced footage and the real world editing doesn't work like this. Like to blame the editors and post house for making a big mess for Red One based digital cinema acquisition and I believe the fear for their existence in near future with the advent of Digital Cinema Camera and easy post production are causing this mess.

I am writing a post on my site titled "Red shoot and FCP / Crimson / RedCine finish" and handover to DI team as DPX or TIFF and the post will be up in weeks time in my website and would also post it on this forum. The client is a major Television channel entering a new regional language channel in India and the workflow is smooth as ever with little or no hiccups.

As for as I am concerned encoding to Apple Pro RES422 / Avid DNXHD will be better option for offline editing.

[gbalaji]

We're a weird bunch us editors. We like to have a tape on a shelf at the end of the day, no question. We see the weird shit our edit applications do, and we're a little uncomfortable without the safety blanket of being able to recapture if it all goes cockeyed.

That said, many of us are also geeks, and new technology is always inviting. RED presents a great opportunity, and it's one that some of us are happier to investigate than others. Many 'dramatic' editors are very unwilling to get into technical stuff, and RED can certainly seem that way, but if you can provide them a little support they'll probably be okay with it. All they want is pictures to edit, they don't want to worry about file names, or codecs, or conversion, or anything else.

Learning codecs and conversion are must for editors in this age. You can escape for a project or too but not for your whole career. The so called people doesn't want to know about the codecs and conversion are all working in NLE which they were against right left and center earlier.

Learning in todays environment irrespective of any field is order of the day. You can't resist too long.

Sycophant - No hard feelings.

[David Birdy]

I can assure you Shawn, the higher you go, the "stupider" it gets.


Post of the week!

Dave

[Johann Schulz]

Ignorance is bliss, and I'm pretty ignorant! Yet, the more I surf this Reduser world as I await my camera, the less ignorant I am becoming, and my bliss has yet to wane. Oh Shakespeare (JJ), you creator of bliss, is anyone sane?

There seem to be a few new concerns about post here today. I thought something new was on the horizon to make this easier for the uninitiated. What a weird time to be criticizing, I think. How's that for cryptic?!

[M Most]

Darren,

LTO-3A is a data-based tape, not a timecode based tape. So, you can use LTO to archive video, but also audio, pics, even scripts and other media like PDF's.

Its way easier to pull an item off LTO and manipulate it than cue up an HDCAM deck with FCP and re-digitize your media.

With a videotape, you can pop it in a machine, hit play, and have full quality HD picture, sound, and timecode instantly. You don't have to digitize anything, even if you're editing (you can use an online bay and work in real time for things like title supers and other quick manipulations - and yes, they still exist and are still used). With an LTO3 tape, you have to restore it to storage and you have to use a computer to play it out. That is hardly a real time process.

For quick (read: television) turnarounds, with video only delivery requirements, video cameras and recorders are much more sensible because that is what they are designed to do. It is also a methodology that already enjoys a huge amount of worldwide support. You don't choose working formats based on what you personally happen to like. You choose them based on the requirements of the particular production and its delivery requirements, which include turnaround times. No one answer is universal or perfect. That's why it's nice to have choices.

[Steve Sherrick]

And just to clarify the 1080P output from camera workflow.

1. There is no audio and timecode coming down that pipe. You have to take the analog audio out and run that into capture card/audio device.

2. You can frame for this crop and downscale by using the 90% safety guide. So, if you know that this will be your workflow, adhere to that guide. Then you have no issues with framing.

3. The quality is actually pretty nice. I've used this to capture into a Kona 3 into ProRes and was surprised by how decent it looked.

As to Harry's account of the perception of Red workflow - it's very true. The stories I've heard are quite humorous. But we always have to keep in mind that not everyone spends as much time on forums, living and breathing Red. I find it's my responsibility to pass along the knowledge and hopefully expertise to those who inquire about it in hopes that their fears will be pushed aside and they can implement a solid workflow. But some do take more guidance than others and some just do not want to step away from tape or film - period. To each his own. All we can do is offer accurate information.

[Chris Pickle]

I love that this forum implies that anyone who doesn't choose Red is stupid, and that all successful producers that don't choose Red are stupid, and that editors that don't embrace Red workflow are stupid. And that people who worry about possible Red post issues are stupid.

I wonder how those working producers and editors manage to build careers in this business even though they are so "stupid". Cause you know, this business is so easy right.

You know, statistically, 99% of major projects are not shot on the Red, which must mean that 99% of people that work in this industry are stupid. Amazing that an entire industry has managed to grow and be successful even though 99% of those involved are stupid.

This attitude from this forum is exhausting.

[Mark L. Pederson]

This attitude from this forum is exhausting.

So is cutting film on a moviola.

[Harry Clark]

Wow...
This thread took on a bit of life. I really was just venting.
Mark, I have no doubt we will chuckle about this later.
It's fine, Genesis is cool. Having a good day.
Cheers,
Harry

[Stuart English]

So the live image is 720P but the played-back image is 1080P now with Build 16? Why isn't the live image also 1080P then?

Because the image framestore that feeds the codec is filled with RAW data, not RGB. On playback we can do some tricks to walk around that, but if /when we record 1080p RGB, that framestore would contain RGB data so the issue would be moot.

[Nicholas Shields]

KnockoutFilms is not wrong. As a Red owner/user, I do my best to not discuss RedUser.net because, outside of here, it is thought of as a fanboy site that is difficult to wade through without being attacked. With very few exceptions, there's an assumption here that if you own a Red camera, that somehow you know how to work it and that you are a professional. You don't have to dig very far to find out how wrong that is. I can't tell you how many times I've posted asking for advise and have received responses that are either completely wrong, naive or merely an attack for even asking for advise - most times by people how haven't even received their camera yet! Some days we have to boot the camera five or six times before it will work. The white balance is off... sometimes. It's buggy - even using a release build. The workflow is difficult. There isn't even a user manual for most of Red's software. We've shot over sixty days with the camera and it isn't getting much easier. RedRushes is a start, but it has a very long way to go. Shooting film may be more expensive and a more arduous post process, but at least it's a "known" - that's why producers adopt film/Genesis/D20 - because their workflow is "known". I know what I got myself into when I bought this thing, and I don't blame anyone for the faults. But the vast majority of posts on this site wouldn't exist if the poster had to say it face to face.

My two cents.

Nick.

[Thomas Koch]

I just did the sf 48 hour film festival with redusers own SF Geek (Mike, who is awesome) Shooting and editing with the high RES proxies was flawless, quick and easy. We got our film in on time and it looks absolute stunning.

With red space and final cut it is seamless and quick.

[Steve Sherrick]

KnockoutFilms is not wrong. As a Red owner/user, I do my best to not discuss RedUser.net because, outside of here, it is thought of as a fanboy site that is difficult to wade through without being attacked. With very few exceptions, there's an assumption here that if you own a Red camera, that somehow you know how to work it and that you are a professional. You don't have to dig very far to find out how wrong that is. I can't tell you how many times I've posted asking for advise and have received responses that are either completely wrong, naive or merely an attack for even asking for advise - most times by people how haven't even received their camera yet! Some days we have to boot the camera five or six times before it will work. The white balance is off... sometimes. It's buggy - even using a release build. The workflow is difficult. There isn't even a user manual for most of Red's software. We've shot over sixty days with the camera and it isn't getting much easier. RedRushes is a start, but it has a very long way to go. Shooting film may be more expensive and a more arduous post process, but at least it's a "known" - that's why producers adopt film/Genesis/D20 - because their workflow is "known". I know what I got myself into when I bought this thing, and I don't blame anyone for the faults. But the vast majority of posts on this site wouldn't exist if the poster had to say it face to face.

My two cents.

Nick.

I don't disagree with some of your points. But, just shot for 10 straight days using Build 16 on two professional projects and they both went off without a hitch. That's not to say there couldn't have been problems, but you know from all my posts on this site that I am pretty neutral when it comes to this camera and the community surrounding it. I try to be fair and balanced in my approach. I feel that as long as you do the proper testing, have the necessary support on set, and work within the camera's strengths and limitations, you can avoid a lot of major issues. There's no doubt the camera is being refined, the accessories are being refined, it's all being fine tuned on a daily basis over at Red. They don't claim to be perfect, they acknowledge they are learning all of the time, and they seem to put a high priority on customer service.

What I think we need more of is tech papers, best practices, etc. Essentially knowledge base resources that put facts and info to paper or pixels if you will. These papers may not always be the final word, but they give people a solid point of reference, and prevent the endless searching method that a lot of people seem frustrated by. The way to grow this community into a respected one is to have it come off as professional. That means, nix the personal attacks, focus less on heresay, and strive to point people to solid resources, so that the information they come away with is accurate and penetrates the industry in a positive way.

When people ask me about the camera, I give them honest information. If I think there project might not be the best fit because of a technical limitation, I give them my honest take. I am not a fanboy, nor am I a detractor. I'm someone that recognizes that Red is a tool, and needs to be presented as such to potential clients so they can determine if it's the right tool.

[Michael Thornton]

Actually, on Build 16, that's exactly what the camera playback is doing.. creating 1080p from the recorded .R3D files. On Build 15 and earlier its limited to 720p playback from the .R3D files. The QuickTime files are not used by the camera, they are generated by the camera for use by QuickTime enabled computer systems.

Stuart,

Does it play all clips from beginning to end? Or only one at a time?

+++++++++++++++

Now as far as post.

If you don't know how, call the pros.

Don't slam thing just because of ignorance.

http://www.hollywooddi.com/
Ask for Neil.

http://www.plastercitypost.com/
Ask for Michael Cioni

You can also PM me.

1080p on set, No problems.

We had a Post Supervisor/Client like that too.

I told them they can can have DPX every 24 hours, but it was not fast enough for them.

They wanted it faster.

We brought a scratch system on set and lay out to SONY HDCAM-SR at the end of the day.

Color corrections was done on a Da Vinci.

Problem solved.

Until, the PS decided to do Visual FX in down converted Digi Beta.

No comments.

Tek

P. S. 1080p is possible right now even on set to tape HDCAM-SR. Scratch is your answer, and you will still save money compare to shooting Genesis. RED is a lot more portable. I can not see any one putting a Genesis in the back of a vehicle and go run and gun.

LOL

Good luck all.

[Nicholas Shields]

Steve:

I agree whole-heartedly regarding the need for tech papers, best practices, etc. Without solid information - the kind that you find in user's manuals and white papers - only users with vested interest - owners, early adopters, etc. - will buy in.

Nick.

[Michael Thornton]

I agree whole-heartedly regarding the need for tech papers, best practices, etc. Without solid information - the kind that you find in user's manuals and white papers - only users with vested interest - owners, early adopters, etc. - will buy in.

I agree we need more info, but at the rate of changes. I think it would create even more confusions.

I actual had people say.

"Can I get a RED prototype yet?"

"Oh, when is the RED coming out?"

"I heard the red has no multiple out puts?"

People will read yesterday white paper and thinks it today.

RED move too fast for now.


"For some people, this will be their first camera" - JJ

This is why not all RED owner are pros.


only users with vested interest - owners, early adopters, etc. - will buy in.

I don't know any hobbyist that would spend $17,500-$100,000.00 on a camera package.

There is a problem with people thinking about just the $17,500, and not the package.


only users with vested interest It would be better for RED and the industry if only pros buy it.

We can only dream of a perfect world, with perfect technologies and perfect buyers.

Tek

[Bruce Allen]

Learning codecs and conversion are must for editors in this age. You can escape for a project or too but not for your whole career. The so called people doesn't want to know about the codecs and conversion are all working in NLE which they were against right left and center earlier.

Depends. I know many successful who know practically nothing about codecs. Several make $1000+ per day.

Why? Because they're great editors - and being paid to do creative editing, not finishing. They have assistants to figure out the technical stuff. Their work is done at standard-definition resolution in Avid.


It's just a education issue that people don't think this can be done, and feel they need 1080p tape recording on the set to do an edit. I spend part of almost every day on the education front... but with the amount of RED shooting, it always seems like there is more needed... We need more evangelsts to show the studios, and agency producers how this works. I can not tell you how many meetings I've had to "show people the light" it's fun when they get it.


I think it's a "some people still just don't like and don't trust FCP" issue, not just an education issue.

When you guys get this workflow working on Avid, you'll find more people joining the evangelist movement.

Can't wait for that SDK!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Chris Pickle]

So is cutting film on a moviola.

You're kidding right? I mean, obviously you're just having a bit of fun and not seriously suggesting that Red solved the issue of needing to cut on a moviola. I think that issue was solved long before the Red camera, and that no one has a client that says they'd rather do their project on the moviola because they don't understand the Red. :)


Hey Nick, thanks for the support. I too, would like to come here and trade solid information and find bits of info on how folks are overcoming little hiccups and such, but sometimes the signal to noise ratio gets lopsided.

Chris

[Johann Schulz]

tomk - can we see the results anywhere? :>)

And don't worry folks, this site is a bit like the desert, where a plane flies by and the pilot releases tons of bags of 'rice'. In the beginning some know how to cook it but others just throw it at each other. Anyway, eventually everyone gets hungry. I hope I'm done tossing! ;>)

...Not to make light of a global plight... oh geez, I may have put my foot in it again, who knows?

I hereby retire from posting until I'm holding my RED Camera!

[Joyfool]

Yes, Fotokem is notorious for not treating students all that well. (I gotta say, I loved Deluxe and their student price beat Fotokem's to boot). Your point, about the difference between the work they do for students and their high end stuff is well-taken though.

That said, people who had come on set, seen the Red working, seen what the footage looked like, and had become instant fans, left that tour with serious second doubts. It can be frustrating...

We had a similar experience with FotoKem. We (our director) called to inquire about supporting our indie film (to be shot on RED). The first thing said was we shouldn't shoot on RED. There was no workflow to speak of and purchasing a red was silly because a real package would cost you 150k (150k was his number). That very day our director was asking if Red was a smart choice. Solution? We went to Plastercity and had them do the pro Red detox on the director and she was back aboard. I was pretty shocked to have had a player like Fotokem be so disruptive.

Oh well. They'll come around. They won't have a choice with 5000 cameras shooting.

[GlennChan]

If the RED had a simple clean feed out the HD SDI port it would shut a lot of people up.
You might not be able to record that to HDCAM SR though... there was the whole thread about 24psf versus 24p. The SR deck will only accept psf, but the camera (if it does output 1080p) won't do psf.

[Michael Thornton]

You might not be able to record that to HDCAM SR though... there was the whole thread about 24psf versus 24p. The SR deck will only accept psf, but the camera (if it does output 1080p) won't do psf.

Please referred to the source SONY website.

It depend on the models and options.


The SRW-5000 is a high-end HD digital videocassette recorder that employs the HDCAM-SR format. Applications range from HDTV to digital cinematography. Key features include high quality 1080i, 1080P or 720P recording and playback, a wide array of internal format conversions, including 4:4:4 to 4:2:2 legacy playback of HDCAM and Digital BETACAM tape formats.



The SRW-5500 is a high-end HD digital videocassette recorder that employs the HDCAM-SR format. This VTR also allows recording and playback of the well-proven HDCAM format. Applications range from HDTV to digital cinematography. Key features include high-quality 1080i, 1080PsF, or 720P recording and playback, a wide array of internal format conversions, including 4:4:4 to 4:2:2, legacy playback of Digital Betacam tape formats.

Always go back to the source.

Here Sony HDCAM SR Pages (http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/view/ShowProductCategory.action?site=biz_en_GB&category=HDCAMSRVTRs)

Tek

[Mark L. Pederson]

You're kidding right? I mean, obviously you're just having a bit of fun and not seriously suggesting that Red solved the issue of needing to cut on a moviola. I think that issue was solved long before the Red camera, and that no one has a client that says they'd rather do their project on the moviola because they don't understand the Red. :)
Chris

I am always having fun. Life is short.

But you know, there was time when "99% of major projects" were cut on a moviola ... there was huge resistance to non-linear editing.

We just didn't have web forums like this back then. It was my attempt to make an analogy.

[Dylan Reeve]

Learning codecs and conversion are must for editors in this age. You can escape for a project or too but not for your whole career. The so called people doesn't want to know about the codecs and conversion are all working in NLE which they were against right left and center earlier.

Learning in todays environment irrespective of any field is order of the day. You can't resist too long.

Sycophant - No hard feelings.

Trust me, I have no issue with this. I'm confident that I have a better understanding of the issues that surround RED post than most editors around these parts.

However, and this is a big and important however, when a director has an editor they like working with, and they consult that editor about what they like to work with and the editor is confronted with a new and (for them) untested technology then alarm bells start to go off. Visions of nightmare edit sessions start to flash before their eyes.

Like it or not, most NLEs are still built around a tape paradigm. They expect media to come in via SDI or Firewire or some other fairly standard input bus. They expect a timecode, and a tape name. There's certainly more and more file-based media (started with XDCAM and P2) and those workflows become easier, but they are still a little 'different'. RED is totally different again.

It's not that hard once you know what you're doing, but for someone who's used to either just sticking a tape in and hitting capture, or even worse turning up in front of a suite that some assistant editor has been beavering away at for many hours before, then the prospect of RED is not a great one.

They will adapt, and it will get easier, but for now they need a comforting and guiding voice if they are to take the leap. They need to be able to talk to someone they can trust (someone like them) who can reassure them that all they're going to need to do is make in and out points and cut just like normal. Once again, I think it's vital that RED owners facing these situations find someone who can be that voice, someone impartial who can provide a voice of reason and answer questions. Someone without a massive vested interest. That person needs to be willing to offer up this knowledge in a selfless way.

Until it's all a little more solid and stable in the post world, I think that person is going to need to be on standby if you want to talk these nervous nellies around.

[Jonas Nyström]

Workflow is not good for the moment. Period.

Will soon be OK, then great. Period.

[Chris Pickle]

I am always having fun. Life is short.

But you know, there was time when "99% of major projects" were cut on a moviola ... there was huge resistance to non-linear editing.

We just didn't have web forums like this back then. It was my attempt to make an analogy.

I completely agree that the resistance to non-linear editing was misplaced but the Red isin't the same paradigm shift. Not really. In some ways, there's nothing new about the Red from a broad perspective. NLE has been around for years, and once digitized, tape based and "flash-card" based workflows are pretty much in the same place.

Even digital non-tape has been around for a few years with P2 media. Differences in DOF and resolution are just camera upgrades. (albeit great upgrades)

By far, the biggest issue / difference with the Red camera is the codec. The HVX used an already existing and supported codec so the workflow was not so much a stretch.

With Redcode, an entirely new set of post tools is needed. Yes, there is some FCP support, but until it will cut native, it still requires a major conversion, which then raises conform issues. (I don't think cutting the proxies for long format will be a viable option--but I could be wrong.)

Rendering conversions over-night just doesn't "feel" right when embracing a digital camera work-flow. Yes, film required lab and transfer, but the whole purpose of digital is too avoid that, not to just make it the same. When you tell a producer or editor about the whole conversion issue, you already lose them. And as I understand it, conversions at this point are a long render.

As I mentioned, I think the conform will be a big issue as well. Indie folks don't want to spend 10k plus on Scratch just to conform. Like shooting digital, FCP was the way around the big post houses. And then to go back to expensive software / hardware? People remember spending 100k on an Avid suit only to have FCP arrive for $1500.00 bucks.

I have no doubt that all of these issues will get resolved, but I will go out on a limb and guess that currently, there is no real easy workflow that you could "pitch" to a wary but rational producer. If they have a proven workflow with their current shooting format, it's very hard to get them to change. Why would they. Saving money doesn't always change minds when measured against high risk.

But -- I completely understand peoples apprehension and feel no ill will. They have a job to do, a living to make, and families to feed. Change is scary. Scary change is terrifying. And if what they are doing works, then hell...

Cheers,
Chris

[Mark L. Pederson]

I have no doubt that all of these issues will get resolved, but I will go out on a limb and guess that currently, there is no real easy workflow that you could "pitch" to a wary but rational producer.
I "pitch" easy Red workflows to rational producers every day.



If they have a proven workflow with their current shooting format, it's very hard to get them to change. Why would they.
Because they can have a faster and cheaper workflow than 35mm film with stunning images. And a better result than HD hands down.



Saving money doesn't always change minds when measured against high risk.
You mean ... when measured against FEAR and incorrect information.

[Sean Sweeney]

I "pitch" easy Red workflows to rational producers every day.

Can you give a few examples of the easy red workflows you've pitched? Or link to them if you've already posted? We're expanding our services to include batch-outputting files for productions (DPX, Apple ProRes, etc) in addition to the RAW data they've got and I'm still trying to demystify some of the workflow process.

[Chris Pickle]

I "pitch" easy Red workflows to rational producers every day.


Because they can have a faster and cheaper workflow than 35mm film with stunning images. And a better result than HD hands down.


You mean ... when measured against FEAR and incorrect information.


What is your work-flow for long format work? Does it include a render to an "offline" format? Have you built a system that renders in short order? How do you conform? Does it include Scratch or can you do it with the free Red tools? I've tried to get my mind around some of the work-flows mentioned, but they all seem to involve some "duct tape".

Risk always includes a large portion of perceived vs real risk, but there's an old saying "you can't tell someone something unless they already know it" :)

[Mark L. Pederson]

Can you give a few examples of the easy red workflows you've pitched? Or link to them if you've already posted? We're expanding our services to include batch-outputting files for productions (DPX, Apple ProRes, etc) in addition to the RAW data they've got and I'm still trying to demystify some of the workflow process.

Sean -

I'd be happy too.

I might even write a nice LONG post about Red Workflows later tonight before I go to bed - since it seems everybody is getting "edgy" again -

I have 4-5 hours more of work to get through - it's so damn busy over here - you know - with all these "nonextistent" workflows -

[Mark L. Pederson]

Risk always includes a large portion of perceived vs real risk, but there's an old saying "you can't tell someone something unless they already know it" :)

I'll write a nice long post tonight - back to work -

I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso

[Sean Sweeney]

Sean -

I'd be happy too.

Thanks! I'm sure many people will appreciate a little clarity - I want to silence all of the RED smack talk. Half of the time on set I'm debunking wild rumors about the RED. Someone should start a thread about the ridiculous rumors regarding RED and its workflow.

[M Most]

I am always having fun. Life is short.

But you know, there was time when "99% of major projects" were cut on a moviola ... there was huge resistance to non-linear editing.


Not quite.

Nonlinear electronic editing didn't exist until about 1984, when a few systems arrived, some based on videodiscs (yes, analog videodiscs) and some based on videotape, using multiple redundant tape transports to provide a "virtual" playback without any hard committed and recorded edits. Editdroid was disc based and was the first system to be used on a network television program (Knots Landing, for the 1984-85 season). There were some serious operational problems with it, however, and the show was shifted to the Ediflex, a multi-VHS transport based system, in 1985. Lorimar (where I worked at the time, as a post supervisor) was the company that pioneered the use of nonlinear editing for longform work, and we did it at least 5 years before there was a commercially released Avid. We used various systems for our work - Ediflex was the primary one, but we also used Montage, Laser Edit (built by the Laser Edit post facility, later acquired by Pacific Video to form Laser Pacific), TouchVision, and various other systems. There were also some systems out there that we did not use, such as CMX6000. All of this was in the mid to late 1980's, before there was digital editing - in fact, before there was digital video. The use of nonlinear editing systems was adopted by the industry over a 4-5 year period and by 1989, the vast majority of shows were edited on nonlinear video systems and finished from videotape (Universal was the real holdout among the studios, as was Warner Bros. until they bought Lorimar in 1988). Features didn't widely adopt these systems primarily because feature editing absolutely required 24 frame accuracy - which was just not possible at the time because accurate, forced cadence editing in telecine didn't come about until about 1988. Feature editors wanted to cut at 24 frames, and that didn't really happen until the Avid Film Composer came along in 1992. Accurate negative cutting - necessary for feature finishing until DI's came along years later - could not be assured until this was the case, as negative cutting needs to be completely accurate because there is no recovery from a physical miscut.

As for upright Moviolas, they were primarily used on the West Coast. In most of Europe and in many East Coast cutting rooms, flatbed editors (Kem and Steenbeck were the two most popular) were the norm.

Sorry for the history lesson, but I just can't let generalized statements go unanswered, particularly when they give the wrong impression, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Sorry for the history lesson, but I just can't let generalized statements go unanswered, particularly when they give the wrong impression, whether intentionally or unintentionally.
I expect nothing less from you Mike - but if was to put 25% of that into my attempt at an analogy - it would sound too much like a history lesson - and less like an analogy -

[Andrew Horvath]

Just in case,

Its always hard to go forward like 3/2 to 2/3 to 3/2....

Who is using the 3D shoots and/or 2 Reds with our Red lens.,

these are for tests right now...

[Rob Gardner]

Mark
I think it would be very helpful to hear a clear workflow for long-form television shows for cable (45:00) delivering on 1080i dvcam without extended renders or a Scratch on-line. This is the model now for many production companies producing cable series with the Varicam (or HDcam, for that matter) and completing in-house. Cable budgets are very competitive, and many companies (like mine) have invested in computers and decks to avoid going out of house for on-line services. I would make the observation, also, that budgets generally do not seem to be going up. If this is something Red's workflow simply can't do at this stage, I'd like to know that too.
Thanks
Rob Gardner

[Nicholas Shields]

I can get an hour's film to the lab, processed and best light in less than 18 hours. I can't do that with my Red files... on the fastest mac. Yes it costs more, but that's the price of workflow. I can't believe people are actually defending Red's post workflow. Outside of chipping away on a stone tablet, it's one of the worst in the industry. Please, they gave us a camera with four xlr inputs and the worst audio interface on the planet - with three-step work-arounds to get it back in sync. Why waste time defending them. Even they know they need to find far better solutions... and they are smart enough to find them... in time.

Nick.

[Andrew Benz]

Sean -

I'd be happy too.

I might even write a nice LONG post about Red Workflows later tonight before I go to bed - since it seems everybody is getting "edgy" again -

I have 4-5 hours more of work to get through - it's so damn busy over here - you know - with all these "nonextistent" workflows -

Mark, I would greatly appreciate anything that you would offer in term of more efficient workflows... including audio please.

All your help is always applied and appreciated. Considering the fact that this is on top of a normal yet busy day for you.

Cheers,

Andrew

[Mike Prevette]

If you can't get an hour of red footage Best lighted in 18hours something is VERY wrong with your set up. On my macbook laptop I can bestlight DV dailies in a 2:1 ratio.

[David Battistella]

If you can't get an hour of red footage Best lighted in 18hours something is VERY wrong with your set up. On my macbook laptop I can bestlight DV dailies in a 2:1 ratio.

Share?

David

[M Most]

Share?

David

There's no big secret. Most relatively new Macs, particularly the 8 core models, can process at standard def with a standard debayer faster than real time using Redcine. The 8 core machines will process about an hour's worth of footage in about 45 minutes.

[Lucas Wilson]

I can get an hour's film to the lab, processed and best light in less than 18 hours. I can't do that with my Red files... on the fastest mac.

Now here is a workflow that makes a lot of sense:

1) Okay... here is a shooting medium... it's incredible, but... don't expose it to light or the whole thing is ruined.

2) Now that you have taken great care to not expose it to any light, get it to "the lab." Once at the lab, take this shooting material out of its case, dip it in large vats of toxic, carcinogenic chemicals in order to extract something useful out of it.

3) Once all toxic chemicals are cleaned, etc. - if you want "4K" data files out of it, you must invest in a machine that costs roughly US$ 1 million in order to load it accurately, and create data.

4) Ah... but the data must then go onto massive amounts of drives, driven by very expensive machines. Another several hundred thousand US.

5) Then load it up into a software device, and... presto! Images!

The film workflow is completely insane when you look at it as an outsider. We are all just used to it, so we think it makes sense.

It takes most SCRATCH customers on the Skulltrail hardware about an hour to get an hour processed. If you have a lab that can get an hour of film scanned at 4K, delivered to you, and loaded into your system in 18 hours over the course of an entire feature at a price similar to compact flash cards and a fully loaded Mac Pro and/or SCRATCH system, then you are a business genius.

Yes, I'm being a s***t ass. But I get very tired of people dissing the workflows that are out there without actually knowing much about them.

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Dylan Reeve]

When you put it that way Lucas it's quite interesting.

No one in their right mind (besides the likes of George Lucas and Peter Jackson) would consider shooting on film and then personally owning all the equipment necessary to get it to the point they can edit with it.

You shoot film you simply know you are going to be sending your cans off to a lab and then possibly another facility for processing and telecine before you can edit.

But when it comes to RED, because it's small and we can stick a CF card in anything then we expect, immediately, to be able to do it all ourselves. Now.

It's odd. If there was a company called RedLab that took your CF cards or RED Drive and shipped you back a Digibeta or SR tape, would that be good enough? It'd still cost less than film, the workflow at edit would be identical. But I suspect the expectation of do-it-myself would remain?

[GlennChan]

Always go back to the source.

Here Sony HDCAM SR Pages
Hi Tekcin,

I was referring to the difference between "true" 24 frames per second progressive and 24psf (progressive segmented frame). In psf, the progressive frame is split into two fields and the fields are sent one at a time. This works well for CRTs since they are displaying 48 fields / second, which is less flicker than 24 frames / second. (The CRT could have a frame buffer and flash the progressive image twice / three times... but that would probably be expensive and I think it would degrade resolution since the beam would move twice as fast.) So I think that's the difference between true progressive and psf. For the camera manufacturer, Red has indicated that it takes extra work to implement psf.

re: HDCAM SR
What Jim+other members of Red said seemed to indicate that recording 1080p24 (true progressive) to a HDCAM SR deck won't work, because the deck will only accept 24psf.

Thread here:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14589&page=2&highlight=psf

Scratch presumably can turn Red footage, debayer it at high quality, and spit it out as 24psf for recording to a SR deck. (Which is, I think, a good way of doing things. As opposed to implementing 24psf output, so that you can have low-quality debayered 1080psf24 coming off the camera live for recording to SR.)

[Michael Thornton]

Glenn,

We are now OT for this thread.

We had a Sony deck's input programmed for 24p progressive.

I know for a fact 24p was send to the deck from Scratch Cine, and it works.

You just need to programmed it.

Internal conversion maybe programs also.


* HDCAM SR and HDCAM recording
* MPEG 4 Studio Profile Compression
* 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 (optional) record capability
* 10 bit per sample video record capability - log or linear
* Records 1080 line (Interlace and/or Progressive) and 720 line Progressive images
* Records 12 channels of audio at 24 bits per sample
* Optional Digital Betacam playback
* Pre-Read Editing, Edit/Record Confidence Playback
* Records non audio AES/EBU data in audio tracks
* Internally routable audio outputs


Features
Feature Benefit
* HDCAM and HDCAM SR recording
Maximum flexibility in one machine to meet current and future HD demand.
* 4:4:4 RGB record capability in HDCAM SR format (optional HKSR-5003)
4:4:4 recording is competitive with 2K data for high end archiving and digital intermediate workflows.
* 12 channels of audio
Provides maximum benefit and flexibility to broadcasters and archivist that require more than 8 channels of audio for broadcast and DVD mastering.

Why would you want interlace any way?

I always try to stay as closed to the final 24p as I can for film out.

Wouldn't you?

Tek

[Harry Clark]

Tek,
Glenn Chan is right. It's not that anyone "wants" interlace, it's the way HDCAM SR is recorded. But it's not an interlace-captured image. It's the original, true, 24fps (23.98 fps) SPLIT and recorded in segmented frames, similar but NOT THE SAME as interlace. It's done for recording ONLY. Panasonic's HDX-900 camera does the same thing when in 1080 mode. It's simply a way of halving the data in each frame to write it to tape. Nothing is lost, there are no interlace artifacts, there is no pulldown. Just a clever way of getting it all on a small tape.
Now, having said that, the deck (I think) can take a 23.98p 1080p signal and make it 23.98 pSF 1080p. But I'm not sure the field recorder will do that. You might need the studio deck.
Cheers,
Harry

[Michael Thornton]

SPLIT and recorded in segmented frames

It shouldn't mater how it is stored to me.

Just like the one and zero, as long as I get the image progressive in the end.

24p going in >&^%^& splits up to many pieces $&^%&^%&> and 24p going out without loosing bits.

That's all I care.

The fact is, there will be 1080p play back from camera running build 16 that can be captured with very little degrading from 1080p output.

K.I.S.S.

What ever the client want the client gets, 1080p, Digibeta, BetaCam, or DVCPRO### what ever.

It's their choice.

Tek


Panasonic's HDX-900 camera does the same thing when in 1080 mode. Before RED cam out we were very happy with Panasonic DVCPRO100 even on tapes.

Red made my dream come true as far as DOF and Cine lenses without adapter.

:-) some time we still shoot HVX200.

[Harry Clark]

Luki,
In the same spirit of tongue-in-cheek...
Imagine a world where there has always been video, electronic imaging, etc. Film never existed.
Some guy named Edison, who used to be in the light bulb business, announces he's going to make a new camera system from scratch. The goal is to develop a system that can maintain consistent high-quality, 500-year archival imaging. Everyone laughs and asks why this outsider from the light bulb business thinks he can achieve what camera designers like like Mannard and Briens have not!
He partners with a guy named Eastman and they create a system that is format agnostic, has a wide dynamic range, and is free of the artifacts of the standard imaging systems. No more fixed pattern noise, rolling shutter artifacts, dead pixels, codec errors, backfocus issues from thermal expansion of the imager, no fans, a clear viewfinder that always works, and above all, an archival medium that will port to any known system, and likely any system that will be developed. You can even get through the day with just one battery, as the cameras do not use power when they are not actively shooting! High and low speeds are easily achieved by speeding up the cameras or slowing them down, and to everyone's surprise, high speed does NOT imply a loss of resolution!!! Best of all, Eastman promises to update the "film" that goes in each camera periodically, taking advantage of improvements in this fast-moving area. Owner-Operators' collective jaws drop as they realize that they do NOT have to buy a new camera every 9 months!
DPs and directors trip over themselves to use this exciting new medium. Some guy named Blairmont buys 76 of the new cameras, and a guy named Petersdad starts a company called OnHollywood with the mission of creating the first "lab" to "process" and "transfer" this new medium. He becomes a bazillinaire, as does Blairmont, Eastman, and Edison. A fast-moving director named Doderberg uses a rickety prototype to shoot the first two features on the new medium, while another director named Steelberg declares that he will NEVER use this new medium and will stick with video "until the last VTR shuts down" But it's all over in 18 months and the world never looks back.
Just a joke, no flames please...
Cheers,
Harry

[Jeff Coatney]

I'm fascinated by the constant "Workflow" debate. Since Red is neither "Film" nor "Video" why does Red have to create a workflow that is tethered to those now arcane and inefficient "workflow models"? The Red workflow is SIMILAR to Film and Video, but it is much more efficient, much higher quality and much easier to learn. Red's workflow is as unique as the camera, and once you bother to learn it, you discover what an improvement it is over Film & Tape workflows.

What is it about Post that makes people think it is supposed to be completely free of improvement or change? Your software is constantly changing, formats are constantly changing, the internet is constantly changing. Is Post supposed to remain locked in a state of suspended animation? Are Post people that inflexible that they can't learn a few new ways of producing their work? We're not talking about a huge leap here, it's not like we're asking cavemen to suddenly start walking upright on two legs overnight. I wish some of you workflow critics could hear yourselves. You sound like children. Honestly, do you really need to be spoon-fed?

[Mark L. Pederson]

Luki,
In the same spirit of tongue-in-cheek...
Imagine a world where there has always been video, electronic imaging, etc. Film never existed.
Some guy named Edison, who used to be in the light bulb business, announces he's going to make a new camera system from scratch. The goal is to develop a system that can maintain consistent high-quality, 500-year archival imaging. Everyone laughs and asks why this outsider from the light bulb business thinks he can achieve what camera designers like like Mannard and Briens have not!
He partners with a guy named Eastman and they create a system that is format agnostic, has a wide dynamic range, and is free of the artifacts of the standard imaging systems. No more fixed pattern noise, rolling shutter artifacts, dead pixels, codec errors, backfocus issues from thermal expansion of the imager, no fans, a clear viewfinder that always works, and above all, an archival medium that will port to any known system, and likely any system that will be developed. You can even get through the day with just one battery, as the cameras do not use power when they are not actively shooting! High and low speeds are easily achieved by speeding up the cameras or slowing them down, and to everyone's surprise, high speed does NOT imply a loss of resolution!!! Best of all, Eastman promises to update the "film" that goes in each camera periodically, taking advantage of improvements in this fast-moving area. Owner-Operators' collective jaws drop as they realize that they do NOT have to buy a new camera every 9 months!
DPs and directors trip over themselves to use this exciting new medium. Some guy named Blairmont buys 76 of the new cameras, and a guy named Petersdad starts a company called OnHollywood with the mission of creating the first "lab" to "process" and "transfer" this new medium. He becomes a bazillinaire, as does Blairmont, Eastman, and Edison. A fast-moving director named Doderberg uses a rickety prototype to shoot the first two features on the new medium, while another director named Steelberg declares that he will NEVER use this new medium and will stick with video "until the last VTR shuts down" But it's all over in 18 months and the world never looks back.
Just a joke, no flames please...
Cheers,
Harry

LOL!

You just missed the part when Edison's firechief launches a website called FILMUSER.NET - everybody freeks out and bangs their spoons on high-chairs and demand that Edison make the camera shoot 29.97 fps, insist the camera is useless until Edison makes a low cost telecine device - and they refuse to pay their outstanding balance on the cameras they reserved until the camera can record in-camera audio.

Meanwhile - on another webforum - devoted to hard core video shooters - a few posters insist that Edison is a "one trick pony" that "just got lucky with the light bulb" - and they insist that color grading with printer lights will never work.

[Steve Sherrick]

I'm fascinated by the constant "Workflow" debate. Since Red is neither "Film" nor "Video" why does Red have to create a workflow that is tethered to those now arcane and inefficient "workflow models"? The Red workflow is SIMILAR to Film and Video, but it is much more efficient, much higher quality and much easier to learn. Red's workflow is as unique as the camera, and once you bother to learn it, you discover what an improvement it is over Film & Tape workflows.

What is it about Post that makes people think it is supposed to be completely free of improvement or change? Your software is constantly changing, formats are constantly changing, the internet is constantly changing. Is Post supposed to remain locked in a state of suspended animation? Are Post people that inflexible that they can't learn a few new ways of producing their work? We're not talking about a huge leap here, it's not like we're asking cavemen to suddenly start walking upright on two legs overnight. I wish some of you workflow critics could hear yourselves. You sound like children. Honestly, do you really need to be spoon-fed?

I can assure you that post facilities do take time to come around on new technologies. Especially the ones you would least expect, i.e. the big studios. Go into their machine rooms and you will find what looks like antiquated technology, but in fact it is still in use. The reason is that they have a lot of investment, not only in the infrastructure but also the training. It takes time to ramp up to new technology. It takes time to implement it into an existing pipeline.

Having said that, it's often the smaller post facilities (the boutiques if you will) that implement cutting edge technology. Either because they are just starting out and it makes sense to think towards the future or they want to take bigger risks with potentially big reward down the line.

I think in due time Red will permeate into many post workflows. We're only 9 months in right now. By this time next year, Red will be considered to be a common format, and there will probably be far less speculation, misinformation, and general confusion surrounding it. But I think we have to give post facilities the benefit of the doubt right now until they catch up to speed. There are so many formats, codecs, etc out there that the post guys do have a lot on their plate.

[Mitch Gross]

Tek-

The playback output on the RED can be set to 1080p. An HDCAM SR deck cannot read this signal. It can read 24psf. That is an output available from Scratch. But this does not answer the original question, which is the desire to play directly out of the camera to a deck without getting a computer between them.

[Brandon Kraemer]

OK,
Just venting I suppose. Take it with a grain of salt... Editors are the SLOWEST in the world to pick up new skills, or update their systems... so help us on the imaging end by letting us coddle them...
I know it's a Digital Cinema Camera blah blah blah... RAW blah blah blah... but...
Please? Help?
Cheers,
Harry

Harry, quite the contrary, editors are the FASTEST at picking up new skills and updating their software, etc. The problem with the RED workflow is with the software development. All the software available to create a RED workflow is only in Beta release. How long has this camera been out? Years now. I'm taking on a RED project this week and I had to write a 4 page manual on how to approach the job because there is no centralized place to get the full story on how to work with this footage.

Furthermore, from the editors perspective, none of this software is properly supported. There is virtually no tech support for Crimson Workflow, because it's just one guy behind that software and I think he has a real job too. Redcine is very prone to crashing even on the newest systems and the docs and tutorials on this software are basic at best.

RED needs to get it in gear to support the post side of the business if this format is going to catch on properly. Releasing the SDK was LONG overdue. Someone please send the editors a RED life raft.

[Keith Neff]

Tek-

The playback output on the RED can be set to 1080p. An HDCAM SR deck cannot read this signal. It can read 24psf. That is an output available from Scratch. But this does not answer the original question, which is the desire to play directly out of the camera to a deck without getting a computer between them.

Hey Mitch, we just did a record test with HD-D5 of the Red 23.98 P signal and it was happy. It's not dual link but it does work.

[Mitch Gross]

Yes, the Panasonic D5 decks will indeed accept the progressive signal. Don't hurt yourself carrying that deck to set! ;-)

[Brandon Kraemer]

So how are they going to "digitize" on set? They would need to shoot at the post house. LOL

Not to mention you don't "Digitize" Red footage.

[Michael Hastings]

Yes, the Panasonic D5 decks will indeed accept the progressive signal. Don't hurt yourself carrying that deck to set! ;-)

:biggrin: You cine guys are all wimps! :biggrin: Try hauling around an Ampex DVTR - that's when men were men.

[Keith Putnam]

If they're really set on on-set post, it seems to me the best thing to do would be for the on-set RED tech to back up the footage from the REDDrive or CF cards to an extra hard drive (in addition to whatever other backups are being made) for the editor's use. The editor can work with the QT proxies in Final Cut Pro as long as the original .R3D files and QT proxies are present in the same directory, and when editing is complete they can render out the sequence in any flavor necessary.

[Martin Weiss]

I had to write a 4 page manual on how to approach the job because there is no centralized place to get the full story on how to work with this footage.

Could you share those 4 pages? That would be a great help.

[Keith Neff]

Yes, the Panasonic D5 decks will indeed accept the progressive signal. Don't hurt yourself carrying that deck to set! ;-)

Nah, we just strapped it to the SteadiCam guy's back, he didn't even notice.

[Michael Thornton]

Hey Mitch,

I wish I have RELEASED build 16 to test with, but not yet.

So far Scratch has been great for HDCAM-SR.

What about a converter to go Red24p to 24Psf HDCAM-SR?

The new BlackMagic Mini Broadcast Converter, or any converter.

Can a converter board be a solution?

I think sony has Converter Boards too, as an option for the decks.

Tek

P. S. 1080p23.98/24 is usually support by HDMI divices, let's try HDMI-HDSDI mini converters?

Hopefully 1080p Playback will be send out via HDMI also in 16.


HDMI Format Support 625/25 PAL, 525/29.97 NTSC, 625/50p PAL, 525/59.94p NTSC, 1080p23.98/24, 1080i50, 1080i59.94/60, 720p50 and 720p59.94/60.

SDI Format Support 625/25 PAL, 525/29.97 NTSC, 1080PsF23.98, 1080PsF24, 1080PsF25, 1080i50, 1080i59.94, 1080i60, 720p50, 720p59.94 and 720p60.

BlackMagic-Design (http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/miniconverters/techspecs/)

[Michael Brennan]

Facts are getting a little segmented in this thread:)

When a HD camera is selcted to progressive, the camera outputs psf via HDSDI.
Panasonic and Sony recorders do not accept a 23.98p, 24p, 25p, 29.97p unless it is in psf form.
Apart form 720 50p and 720 60p there is no "true p" input option on a SRW1 field recorder, only psf.

Why isnt there one? Because up until now RED is the only popular camera that outputs true progresive.

Industry assumption/practice is that below 30fps signal is psf.



Mike Brennan

[Ted Chu]

I have worked with crew who hates the RED without ever having seen it, use it, or read about it...I guess the business has not changed much.

Ted
http://tedchu.com

[Dylan Reeve]

Unless I am mistake true progressive also requires 3Gb/s HD-SDI rather than the earlier 1.5Gb/s which is what exists on most current HD hardware.

The end result of PsF is the same but it is carried as two fields rather than a single frame.

[Keith Neff]

Unless I am mistake true progressive also requires 3Gb/s HD-SDI rather than the earlier 1.5Gb/s which is what exists on most current HD hardware.

The end result of PsF is the same but it is carried as two fields rather than a single frame.

It's really a Sony thing. 23.98 P can be carried on a standard 1.5G connection as a 4:2:2 signal. Segmented format probably made it easier for them to meld it into the existing product technology.
HD video really needed some more variations to make it interesting
:detective2:

[Dylan Reeve]

Yeah HD is far to standardised... Especially compared to the old format-laden days of PAL and NTSC... And Secam I guess.

[Brandon Kraemer]

Could you share those 4 pages? That would be a great help.

I intend too, but I need to make the document more general (not company specific) first. Then I am happy to share. I will start a new Thread where people can give feedback and add to or correct what I have started.

[Stuart English]

When a HD camera is selcted to progressive, the camera outputs psf via HDSDI. Panasonic and Sony recorders do not accept a 23.98p, 24p, 25p, 29.97p unless it is in psf form. Apart form 720 50p and 720 60p there is no "true p" input option on a SRW1 field recorder, only psf.

Why isnt there one? Because up until now RED is the only popular camera that outputs true progressive

Much of this is true, the SMPTE standard calls out both Progressive and also Segmented Progressive as options for 1920 x 1080 resolution images. Sony chooses to only use PsF, Panasonic with D-5 supports both, as do many of the latest LCD monitors and a growing number of video capture cards. Segmenting the frame into fields requires more resources and yields no image quality advantage, hence we don't support that (PsF) alternative.

Given the high volume of RED cameras shipping into the market I don't see this being an issue in the mid to long term...

[Martin Weiss]

Brandon, you are a star.

Thanks!

[Michael Thornton]

Much of this is true, the SMPTE standard calls out both Progressive and also Segmented Progressive as options for 1920 x 1080 resolution images. Sony chooses to only use PsF, Panasonic with D-5 supports both, as do many of the latest LCD monitors and a growing number of video capture cards. Segmenting the frame into fields requires more resources and yields no image quality advantage, hence we don't support that (PsF) alternative.

Thanks Stuart.

I am interested in making things work together.

Can you tell me what converter I need to put between the RED and HDCAM-SR deck?

We are happy with Scratch system and HDCAM-SR for now.

Red > converter > HDCam-SR?

What brand and model please.

Tek

[GlennChan]

Perhaps an even better idea than trying to kludge Red <--> HDCAM SR together would be for Red to come up with a VTR-like device. Take a look at XDCAM HD... I really like the concept. It supports a data workflow for systems that support that format, and also supports the old-school SDI-based workflow. It's like a tape workflow, except better because it shuttles instantaneously (makes online conform *a lot* faster). And you shouldn't have problems with timecode breaks.

Perhaps if Scratch could masquerade as a VTR, or Redray does the job, would open up some more workflow possibilities.

Ultimately I think a data workflow is the most ideal, but that would only happen if all vendors support the data format (well, e.g. realtime).

*This is not to say that tape-based workflows suck... they are here now, they work (the same can't be said of other workflows), and they work pretty well. But c'mon, this is Red... Red is known for being a little ambitious. Tape workflows are good... but should we really settle for that?

Disadvantages of tape: (sometimes) expensive, shuttling, conform is not always frame accurate, not highest quality (e.g. no RAW).
(Though I suppose the only way to solve all four of those problems would be a data/file-based workflow, not SDI-based. Though it'd require cooperation with Avid et all.)

[Dylan Reeve]

We (at ShotWrangler) were talking loosely about the idea of producing a RED-VTR device that could emulate a VTR and play SDI out or something... But figured we're too far ourside the loop of RED to make something that effective.

I quietly hope the REDRAY can do something similar. Or maybe the SDK will hold some surprises.

[GlennChan]

(For some folks anyways) an ideal VTR would have most of the features in a SR deck. And that thing has pages and pages of menus for its features. Main points are...
3:2 pulldown
real-time SD downconvert
TC burn (repositionable, can change size, can show different timecodes)
Remote control
TC, sync

Somehow I doubt that RedRay would have those sorts of features (especially SD...), as nice as it would be. It seems like the direction with RedRay is for distributing 4K content, not necessarily as a workflow tool / VTR.

[Brandon Kraemer]

Martin,

I finally did post my RED Workflow Manual (v.1.2) in a new thread located at 4K Workflow > Apple Workflow. It's a work in progress. Cheers,

Brandon

[Martin Weiss]

Thank you sir :)

(Now of course the Adobe solutionmight make things much less complex...)

[Thomas Koch]

I see the MOTU V3HD will convert 720P or 1080P to 1080Psf in real time. OR I should say, I think it does. I have not tested it.

http://www.v4hd.com/features/formats.html

Thomas
www.bayareafilmmakers.com

[Nova Invicta]

How would you feel as an editor when your bombarded with DVCPro, P2, HDCam, HDCam SR, XDCam Red Code, Digibeta, HDV etc etc. Sometimes two formats have to melded into one or in the case of "Blue Planet" multi formats these all carry issues that need to be overcome. Gavin Finney BSC the former BSC President summed this up in British Cinematographer the industry is a mess with no recognised standard save for those that existed in film!

[Harry Clark]

DPs and assistants have to learn all of these formats too, and the myriad cameras and quirks thereof.
Editors need to step up in a big way. I STILL get the old "my Avid is rock-solid and I don't want to update it. Do you HAVE to shoot in that goofy P2 format???"
Editors please get it together.
Harry

[Ben Rojas]

Editors are the SLOWEST in the world to pick up new skills, or update their systems... so help us on the imaging end by letting us coddle them...
I know it's a Digital Cinema Camera blah blah blah... RAW blah blah blah... but...
Please? Help?
Cheers,
Harry

Friend, it's got much less with being "slow" or taking longer to accept, adapt or change... It's about "time" -- specifically the lack of it. I've been very impressed w/RED! The workflow, on the other hand, not so much :blink: But like any new format, we have to develop our own workflows and work-arounds to accomplish projects in the time frames allotted... Right now, the RED workflow makes that very very challenging. I'm currently cutting an Indie film shot entirely on RED and I'm under the gun to get the rough cut to Sundance. The film was shot in an amazing 20 some odd days! They wrapped roughly a week ago and while I've been cutting scenes throughout production, the speed I can cut at is slowed significantly w/the QT Ref. files. First and formost, I've got to import and organize the QT files. OK, first up, importing. No biggie, but tidious as hell. Say I'm working on Scene 1, which has 5 wides, 4 meds, 3 cu's, etc. etc. I have to go into that folder, then go into every other folder in there and pluck out the file. Once done, I now go through what I normally do when logging or digitizing, which is watch and evaluate the footage. You're probably thinking now, why don't you just use RedCine or RedAlert... Nope, export hell! No prob, I push forward and continue w/the QT Ref.'s. Now that they are organized I can find my footage, no sweat right? Wrong. Now I'm working at a turtles pace 'cause FCP's response time is slooooooow :ranting2: Fine, you get used to it and push forward; but a big issue looms down the line when I'm done cutting... Conforming in RedCine is out of the question: no time! Conforming in Scratch is out of the question: no money! And conforming in my Avid Nitris aint happening 'cause it's only coming in DPX or TIF via RedCine, which, like I mentioned, NO TIME. The rough cut is going real rough and the final, because of time and budget constraints will be an FCP cut, w/simple color correction, output.

So, I'll continue to pioneer and push forward 'cause I love RED's look and eventual advantages, but for now, if you don't have time or money for post, I'm recommending you shoot with something else.

Now, all that being said, if Apple get their shite together and let's us conform in Color so we can grade, correct, etc., I for one, will jump for joy :sorcerer:
That will not only make things easier but faster and ultimately cheaper.

[JanneJansson]

Crap, This thread it too long, i forgot my input by reading it all :/
..
Now I remembered, many recent test of RED on the net, talks about the poor quality of the SDI output. I guess this is for the preview purpose, but people will hook a big high quality display and compare it to ordinary 1080 cams and think "hmm, the 1080 cam look better then RED, I go with that". I think a real high quality SDI or dual link SDI is a very good way to charm old school guys.

Cheers