RED, please silence editing rumors

[Michael Moreno]

red please silence editing nay sayers.
short and sweet and to the point
i read the last post and all others on the rumors and drama of editing red
and please make it all go away, as i know you can even though your busy with much

MAKE ONE EASY VIDEO WALKTHROUGH TUTORIAL OF THE RED EDITING PROCESS!!

two easy reasons for this
1 for all the false rumors and last painful minority of red future users in denial. lol
2 for all us red believers to go back to loving red one, and also something to watch besides reduser ; )
be that one for final cut and then others
and no the mythbusters with ted was not enough

this is too easy, id do it if i was meant for the job
please no excuses, help me and all the other red heads on this site finish
the last couple yards, since your camera clearly works and kicks ass!!
and if red and company cant, someone do it for red, after all they only made your dream camera a reality.

all due respect to red and all hard working minds and bodies

[Michael "Dorkman" Scott]

How was the Mythbusters "not enough"?

How can you simplify it beyond "Shoot, plug, play"?

[Michael Moreno]

hey dorkman, lol jk
your preaching to the choir
i know this man
thats why i wrote it with regards to all of the gossip and rumors
but i still dont think mythbusters showed a walkthrough of all options
and choices, red has a good chart on the site though. their workflow chart.
but it would be nice to have the grammer school learn along video.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Is editing with RED footage fairly easy or not? I was really up to date with RED news and features last summer, when I had mine on order, and I kept up until maybe October, but when they started shipping I soon after canceled my order because I realized that my clients wouldn't at this point be willing to pay enough for me to shoot with the RED and I wasn't professional enough to deserve such a professional camera. In other words, it was a bad financial decision.

But now, I want to have a RED no later than this time next year, and I still as before have the cash set aside. That being said, I'm most worried about the workflow because I'm just a producer / director, I'm not an editor. I can do basic editing no problem, and my computer is absolutely top-of-the-line right now, so I should be equipped to handle RED footage, but I don't know what kind of a nightmare that is. I have an 8-core Mac Pro, 3.2 Ghz, 10 gigs RAM, AJA Kona 3 card, 2 TB CalDigit HDOne RAID unit, Panasonic pro monitor, 28" monitor, 20" monitor, all connected, a couple of G-Drives (500 gigs), 6 or so Western Digital drives, Final Cut Studio 2 and CS3 (I prefer that my projects be edited on Final Cut, but CS3 is mainly for After Effects, Photoshop, and Illustrator, etc.). Because we use HVX200s now, that workflow is ridiculously easy and refined, I think it's one of the strengths of the camera in fact. There really isn't any other workflow I think is quite as easy as the P2 workflow, so what I'm wanting to know is if I go the RED route, figuring that camera will not only last me a long time but acquire stunning images, am I going to have to hire really top-of-the-line editors to figure out how to edit the footage? Because while I may be able to afford the RED, a great tripod, plenty of accessories, etc., what I can't really afford is having to hire editors at $500/day because none of the $250/day editors will know what the heck to do with RED footage, lol.

[gbalaji]

Is editing with RED footage fairly easy or not? I was really up to date with RED news and features last summer, when I had mine on order, and I kept up until maybe October, but when they started shipping I soon after canceled my order because I realized that my clients wouldn't at this point be willing to pay enough for me to shoot with the RED and I wasn't professional enough to deserve such a professional camera. In other words, it was a bad financial decision.

But now, I want to have a RED no later than this time next year, and I still as before have the cash set aside. That being said, I'm most worried about the workflow because I'm just a producer / director, I'm not an editor. I can do basic editing no problem, and my computer is absolutely top-of-the-line right now, so I should be equipped to handle RED footage, but I don't know what kind of a nightmare that is. I have an 8-core Mac Pro, 3.2 Ghz, 10 gigs RAM, AJA Kona 3 card, 2 TB CalDigit HDOne RAID unit, Panasonic pro monitor, 28" monitor, 20" monitor, all connected, a couple of G-Drives (500 gigs), 6 or so Western Digital drives, Final Cut Studio 2 and CS3 (I prefer that my projects be edited on Final Cut, but CS3 is mainly for After Effects, Photoshop, and Illustrator, etc.). Because we use HVX200s now, that workflow is ridiculously easy and refined, I think it's one of the strengths of the camera in fact. There really isn't any other workflow I think is quite as easy as the P2 workflow, so what I'm wanting to know is if I go the RED route, figuring that camera will not only last me a long time but acquire stunning images, am I going to have to hire really top-of-the-line editors to figure out how to edit the footage? Because while I may be able to afford the RED, a great tripod, plenty of accessories, etc., what I can't really afford is having to hire editors at $500/day because none of the $250/day editors will know what the heck to do with RED footage, lol.

Jonathan and rest of the people who start this post,

There is nothing wrong with RED or any Digital Cinema Camera based acquisition. Instead of all the hardware gear you mentioned above, you need a better young dynamic team of editors / compositors to do file based workflows. People complained NLE in the beginning and now if any editor doesn't work on NLE software are out of business and that will apply for all the technological advancement including file based acquisition.

The mindset of the people needs to change for file based acquisition rather than complaining RED or any other digital cinema camera company.

Change is in the order of people'ss mindset and will have its own time. Till that time you need find a young dynamic team which is your real tough job and not the workflow.

[Wayne D]

Hi JonathanLB - if you can plough your way through P2 then you can easily make RED work for you.....they are both file based cameras.

as for for the cost of editors (in fact any crew)....why is that people will always have enough money to do something 3 or 4 times wrong, but never enough money to do it once and right?

sorry.......... but complaining about rates and quailty gets my goat........

[Johann Schulz]

I must reply to threads that have been a concern to me, too. And the more I learn, simply stated for the hundredth time, the better I feel.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of RED ONE-shot projects out there and in post, with more everyday, and I've got to say my jaw hurts from hitting the table everytime I see a great piece of work that HAS BEEN COMPLETED on and in this RED workflow. The problem, I think, ironically enough, is in the options. JLB's not sure his computer-Farrari can complete the circuit, yet folks are completing the basics on an iMac!

The "rumours" alluded to at the head of this thread are "Choices", and although there are several stability issues and incessant improvements ;>),
(don't tell me you've never received a software update on your Mac OR PC!), the underlying 'thread' here is, sorry to say, ignorance. Okay, sprinkle on a bit of in-experience, with a side plate of non-confidence. If you want it, you can have it; and I'm waiting in line with less firepower than you, my friends....

This post won't stop! paintthetownred still has a good point, though: In the future RED could add a basic DVD tutorial on post workflow and throw it into the box with your purchase. They could also provide one for this 'cage' idea they have, and camera stability, and lowlight tricks. Who knows what, and where do you find it? This isn't a point-and-shoot; though Scarlet's coming.

Get the picture: what you need is on the net!

I bought Final Cut Pro V1.5.3 eight years ago, I believe. It's still the same, but not even close!

[Andrew Ravani]

Is editing with RED footage fairly easy or not? I was really up to date with RED news and features last summer, when I had mine on order, and I kept up until maybe October, but when they started shipping I soon after canceled my order because I realized that my clients wouldn't at this point be willing to pay enough for me to shoot with the RED and I wasn't professional enough to deserve such a professional camera. In other words, it was a bad financial decision.

But now, I want to have a RED no later than this time next year, and I still as before have the cash set aside. That being said, I'm most worried about the workflow because I'm just a producer / director, I'm not an editor. I can do basic editing no problem, and my computer is absolutely top-of-the-line right now, so I should be equipped to handle RED footage, but I don't know what kind of a nightmare that is. I have an 8-core Mac Pro, 3.2 Ghz, 10 gigs RAM, AJA Kona 3 card, 2 TB CalDigit HDOne RAID unit, Panasonic pro monitor, 28" monitor, 20" monitor, all connected, a couple of G-Drives (500 gigs), 6 or so Western Digital drives, Final Cut Studio 2 and CS3 (I prefer that my projects be edited on Final Cut, but CS3 is mainly for After Effects, Photoshop, and Illustrator, etc.). Because we use HVX200s now, that workflow is ridiculously easy and refined, I think it's one of the strengths of the camera in fact. There really isn't any other workflow I think is quite as easy as the P2 workflow, so what I'm wanting to know is if I go the RED route, figuring that camera will not only last me a long time but acquire stunning images, am I going to have to hire really top-of-the-line editors to figure out how to edit the footage? Because while I may be able to afford the RED, a great tripod, plenty of accessories, etc., what I can't really afford is having to hire editors at $500/day because none of the $250/day editors will know what the heck to do with RED footage, lol.

The p2 workflow requires translation and file replication (turning the .mxf file into a Quicktime file, stripping out some of the "useless" meta data), the XDCAM (PMW EX1, PDW 350, etc) workflows require transcoding to Prores (not fast, 2.5:1 decompression, nice image), and then the AVCHD cams also require transcoding (10:1 decompression in some cases, slow) ... then there is the RED - no transcoding - working with lower res proxies (which is funny because their lower res proxy is still higher res and has more color bit depth than the full res of ANY of these other cameras).

You literally just have to learn how to manage data. That's it. No voodoo, no transcoding, no trickery, no hacks. Just put the good stuff (your red files) in well managed folders on fast drives (eSATA is goooood) and install the RED Quicktime component plugin, run RED Cine or Red Alert - don't even bother with the transcoding of RED footage - you lose bit depth, meta data manipulation, and all the really useful features of FCS post + RED.

You can even title your RED footage in After Effects or Motion, bounce the audio to Logic Pro and Soundtrack. IT WORKS. You will need to read the notes on http://www.red.com/support for each of those products and I highly recommend the good folks over at FXPHD http://www.fxphd.com for some skillz that your editors may not have down yet (buy the courses, download, and sit your $250 / hr editor down to watch them). The RED workflow (RED101) course is particularly relevant to your needs. While you are at it, grab the On Set Day and Night with RED One course (DOP301) as well. You'll thank yourself.

Also, consider spending a $1000 and having a DIT/workflow specialist consult with you and your cheapo editor - do it once and you and your editor can get cracking. Or partner with an ubergeek. There are a few around - and they are worth their weight in palladium (see Jim's RED wingman Graham Natress for example on this...)

I work with flame artists that charge $900~$1200/hr - so my sympathies just aren't with you when it comes to this. Good post people are aggressive about knowledge acquisition, smart, logical thinking artists, and have taken the time to cut their teeth on some pretty demanding shots. Above all they are RELIABLE. The good news is, if you can get to work with them, your billable goes up to a respectable point as well. The point I am trying to get at is: quit lowballing your post - hire the best - by any means necessary - and your projects will look, feel, and be professional. Same goes for sound by the way - if not more so.

Good luck! :)
~Drew

[nick allsop]

i agree with paintthetownred there does need to be a better video or even a precise step by step set of instructions that could be sent out to worried producers or editors. i am a camera assistant and am going out with my red but before every job i have to talk to editors about post work flow i am not an editor. i have even lent post houses a hard drive of red footage to test with only to find they have then dumped it all down to HDCAM SR. a manual for red alert and red cine would be nice as well.

[John Logan]

paintthetownred, this company wasn't started to do your job for you.

If you can't get (or keep) clients or projects then that is YOUR PROBLEM. Not Red's.

If you want a tutorial so bad, make it yourself.

These people don't live to coddle you.

Be a professional. Stop demanding things and start relying on your own abilities.

[Sam Roberts]

MAKE ONE EASY VIDEO WALKTHROUGH TUTORIAL OF THE RED EDITING PROCESS!!

...and not just for 4K film out.

3k, 2k, out to tape for broadcast, 1080 and 720 out to HD&SD DVD etc, etc

[Thor Wixom]

It will help to silence the editing rumours, when the SDK comes out and there are more editing *options*.

When an editor says "the Red has horrible workflow", he probably means "it doesn't have the workflow 'I' want".

I own a Red, and I'm faced with this challenge every day.

I'm not a fan of Apple. I'm not a fan of FCP.

I can fight through an FCP workflow (no thanks), or fight through uncompressed output via Windows Redcine (no thanks), or I can rent a different camera (yeah, right), or I can set my projects to the side until there's a Red workflow I'm happy with.

So, I'm setting my projects to the side. It's not worth the hassle. (At least I have good clients to keep me busy in the meantime.)

But an editor who doesn't shoot, will simply request a different camera. It's way to easy to persuade the client. It's sad, but it is what it is.

-Thor

[Dylan Reeve]

The problem is that the process still isn't easy.

It's far from impossible as some people seem to believe, but it does require some level of pre-planning, education, experimentation and testing. It isn't as simple and straightforward as many of the tape-based systems we editors are used to.

At the moment a walkthrough saying "this is how you edit with RED" showing the FCP process might not be that beneficial, it simply serves to reinforce the idea that RED is Apple/FCP only, which for many productions is not a positive thing.

Instead I really think RED owners should make it their mission to find and work with local post-production professionals who don't mind sharing their experience and knowledge with others when the time comes. Find someone who is interested in RED, has a technical bent and ideally has access to a few different post options, and help them play. You can both learn. And you can refer to them for your mythbusting needs. Frankly the people I've worked with are much more comfortable hearing from me a frank evaluation of the post options available than they would be seeing some 'look how easy it is' video on the RED site.

I've spent a while on the phone talking to people about this stuff, I'm often advising people who are in many ways my competition, but I'm happy with that because in the end it results in a generally better informed post community and a production environment where RED is more accepted.

We're still a little way off anything like an easy workflow for many people - I'm sure it will come, but in the meantime the people doing this stuff need to be fairly well informed of what's current in the RED world.

[Mike Prevette]

THIS ISN'T AIMED AT ANYONE IN THIS THREAD MORE JUST A POINT OF REFERENCE:

Last time I checked processing film wasn't that easy either. Anyone who is complaining about the Red workflow needs to either A) hire professionals, or B) Remember that they are now acting as the LAB as well as the post house and accept there will be some added complexity.

[Finner]

Last time I checked processing film wasn't that easy either.

No, but it's established, common and post houses have the equipment to work with the one light they get from the lab.

Red post is extremely time intensive, difficult and requires new and expensive equipment all of which scares away many producers.

This thread along with the "lost 2 red jobs" thread all stem from 1 thing "Lack of decent post options". Apple has pretty much come out with squat diddly for red support and although scratch works $50K+ is not something producers want to sign on for to have the privilage to shoot their first :30 commercial on red. These 2 companies have the monopoly on red post and until the doors are opened I see them having little incentive to be better.

"Nice images, good camera, crap post. Sorry no thanks." This sums up 85% of producers comments. Red Team, post is killing your camera. It is actually a testament on how good the camera actually is that people are using it despite the post mess. It's a sad state and has been my biggest complaint for months.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I don't know what to think from the comments here, some people have no problems and say it's easy, others are bitching about how hard it is.

Then again, no offense intended, any time someone says they don't like Apple and don't care for Final Cut Pro, which is the best editing system by far, then I can't really take anything else they say seriously either. Don't use PCs for editing, use a real computer. Honestly. This isn't high school anymore, it's the pro world, time to step up and get a computer that was made for pro work not Excel and Word and Half-Life 2.

I know everyone on RED User apparently makes boatloads of cash, good for everyone here, it's always inspiring, if you can afford to pay an editor like $1,000/day, $4,000/day, or some other ludicrous sum of money that really nobody is worth in a labor position, that's awesome, and great for them too! But there are those of us who have enough trouble trying to find a client where we can make any money, let alone have a bunch of money to pay an editor, especially for simple tasks. My work is pro work, I don't need an editor with 15-years of experience to get it that way either. Sure, my editor in the past may have taken longer to solve problems than a real pro, but that was his problem not really mine. He was paid a project fee, as any editor is, and the work in the end was always exactly as I wanted it, and as the client wanted it. If I paid an editor five times as much I wouldn't get five times better work, or even twice as good of work, or even 25% better. I worked with the editor to get exactly what I wanted, nothing more, nothing less. I don't just turn over a project to an editor and let them do their thing, anyway. I think a film is made in the editing room, so I'm a lot more hands-on than that.

All pay issues aside, since everyone on the RED forum evidently makes $500,000 a year and can afford to massively overpay everyone (not to mention make fun of those of us who pay a paltry $25/hr to our employees, who are in their 20s, god forbid, what horrible pay -- join reality people, it's nice here), good for you guys, it sounds like perhaps the RED post issues will be more fully figured out when I was to get my camera anyway.

I'm not especially worried by whether my computer can handle the RED workflow, but at the same time, if working with RED requires not only that I always have a 1st A.C., let's say, but that I also always have to hire a very experienced editor, sadly that becomes a camera I won't be using much. I've worked with very experienced DPs who can still pull focus themselves when necessary, even when I've had a 1st A.C. on set, but this is exactly why I canceled my RED, because too many people seem to indicate that it's not the type of camera we can use on lower budget projects. When I say lower budget, I'm not talking about me and a few friends, I'm talking about a crew of professionals, but most of us, the vast majority of filmmakers, do not have the funds to pay a DP, camera op, 1st A.C., 2nd A.C., blah blah etc. Most of us make do with maybe a DP and a 1st A.C., that's it, or a camera op and a good gaffer, a few grips, etc. The project budget determines what we are allowed to have.

So while I would absolutely love to work with the editor of Transformers on every one of my projects, again there is a little thing called reality that a lot of people here seem to miss out on where producers like myself try to find the best projects we can, negotiate the money, etc., but ultimately there's only so much you can get for many projects. Since I don't have the credentials yet to be working with Nike or Toyota, I can't just "hold out" for the clients who "are willing to pay the big bucks." I'm kind of shocked sometimes that people here lack the creativity anymore to figure out ways to make pro work and not have it cost a fortune, because if you can't find a great editor for $250/day I am sorry for you. You failed at this industry. You've somehow gotten to a point where you think money = talent, and that's very sad.

[Wayne D]

yo JonathanLB - come on down for $250 a day and you are hired.

[Adam Glick]

I know I'm not the first one to re-focus the discussions back into context but we're talking digital cinema - not digital video.

And It's not lost on anybody that one of the ground-breaking ideas behind the RED Revolution is the "democratization" of lower-cost, high-quality tools and methodologies for film makers.

But for now, and for the interim future, here's the only sane path forward:


If the project at hand can be sufficiently shot and finished using a video-centric pipeline, then shoot HD. This is a clean, elegant and well-defined pipeline. It's easy if you have the right tools and expectations are properly defined.

OR

If your project requires the fidelity and/or look that the Director or DP feels can only be acquired by shooting on film, then you have two choices. Shoot on film or shoot RAW on a digital film camera.

These two options both share a very similar pipeline that is also clean, elegant and well-defined.

Here's a possible workflow for each:

shoot film --> telecine/best light CC --> dailes --> editorial-VFX-audio --> assemble/conform --> print

or

shoot RAW --> transcode/best light CC --> dailes --> editorial-VFX-audio --> assemble/conform --> print

Also easy if you have the right tools and expectations are properly defined.


If you go RED (or Dalsa or Genesis or Arri D20), just make sure you invest in (or build in the budget for access to) all the tools you will need to finish the project(s).

Regardless of how you feel that the universe SHOULD be, trying to pretend (wish, pray, etc) that posting/finishing digital film today is the same as posting/finishing video does not promote health and well-being.

[Bruce Allen]

JonathanLB

Welcome back buddy!

So, to summarize your post, you think:

a) FCP is the "best editing system by far"
b) PCs are not real computers
c) editors shouldn't be paid over $25 per hour (in Los Angeles)
d) people in their 20s should be happy with this

I think Avid should send you a gift every time you post.

BTW, have you ever tried hiring a $500 / day editor? You might just find that *SHOCKER* they get an awesome cut done in fewer days than the $250 / day one could. So it actually costs you the same.

But then you're probably the kind of producer who likes to stand over the editor's shoulder while munching fries and micromanaging every cut. You'd need to learn to stop that.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Dylan Reeve]

I don't know what to think from the comments here, some people have no problems and say it's easy, others are bitching about how hard it is.

Then again, no offense intended, any time someone says they don't like Apple and don't care for Final Cut Pro, which is the best editing system by far, then I can't really take anything else they say seriously either. Don't use PCs for editing, use a real computer. Honestly. This isn't high school anymore, it's the pro world, time to step up and get a computer that was made for pro work not Excel and Word and Half-Life 2.

Anytime someone says something like that then I can only assume they are inexperienced and don't understand the realities of large-scale post production. FCP is a powerful and impressive application, but it has very significant workflow and usability issues that mean it is often not the best choice for many applications. Issues such as media management become a very serious issue on large productions, especially features and episodic television, and for these reasons Avid is still the dominant platform in those environments.

The guts of your Mac and my PC are pretty much the same, the only thing that differs is the operating system. Indeed in the pro-world of NLE editing the vast vast majority of my work has been on Windows systems. A Mac is not inherently any better than a Windows PC for these types of roles.

It is this sort of attitude that is turning of many people. They have systems, and hardware - stuff that works for everything else, they aren't about to be told that they need to get rid of it and buy Macs and FCP just to support this camera. If that is in fact a requirement (which it's not) then RED's adoption will be seriously hampered.

I have heard producers say "no, we don't want to use RED, we don't want to have to cut with FCP."

[Frank Weeks]

Let me state up front that Kevin Stanley, the master of workflow , has been nothing but helpful. We talked several time at NAB and through e-mail and on the phone since I received my Red. He has guided me in the right direction.
With that said I must agree with the paintthetownred. It would nice to have some basic help with the workflow similar to what Mike Burton did with the Redcine software.

I'm an old dog and I don't learn new tricks as fast as I use to. Started with linear editing 25 years ago and have learned to love 5 NLE's before switching to the dark side and FCP, which I am also learning to love(thanks to Lynda.com). I think what paintthetownred and Finner point out is that workflow is still confusing for many. I know it is for me. There are so many variables. Red,Redcine,Red Alert, Redrushes, FCP. An incorrect setting anywhere can cause problems. And that's just on the Mac side. Things will get even more interesting when the SDK is released.

Now that B16 is becoming stable and it is understood that having the right versions of Redcine is a must. Perhaps its a good time to lay out basics on how to go from Red to whatever format you like. Covering variables and pitfalls along the way.

I know that these instructions are probably somewhere on Reduser but searching has never worked very well for me.

We know Red has given us a great camera for a fraction of it value, but a little more help on the workflow side would benefit new users and Red. Kevin wouldn't have repeat himself a thousand times. Marketing would be a little easier. The world would be filled with joy.

I love this camera and will learn to be comfortable with it in time. Keep in mind that I"m aging quickly and my time may be limited so anything you can do for us digital cinema challenged owners would be appreciated.

[Lee Dashiell]

I here a lot of chatter about this and it seems like there is a much better workflow for FCP. We, like many have an AVID. An Avid Adrenaline HD system to be exact. Why is there less emphasis on the AVID? Is it AVID or RED? I can't seem to figure out who's in bed with who.

[Dylan Reeve]

RED has had development agreements with Apple. However I believe those are no longer exclusive. Avid and RED are certainly working together on getting it working better.

The workflow with FCP isn't necessarily as straight-forward as it always appears anyway.

[Philip Powell]

I love this camera and do believe things will get much easier soon, but to be fair to those of my clients who have passed, because of the post issues, I understand where they are coming from.

I can only speak for the kind of work our clients do, smallish to mid budget commercials that usually shoot 35, and to lesser degree HD. But the one thing they are almost always under is a tight deadline for air. Often the film will go to the lab for overnight processing and the next day is the telecine session. They dump to HDCAM and post begins, the spot may even begin to air within the week in extreme circumstances.

IMHO, processing all the raw footage, as one might do in a telecine session, is something Redcine can't compete with under a deadline, as doing a full debayer can take an extremely long time to render out. (I've also noticed when my clients shoot with the Red they tend to do many more takes than they would with film, thus making the render situation more problematic.)

So this leads to my suggesting to my clients the only practical workflow under a deadline (or perhaps ever) is an offline/online one. This involves them learning and working with at least one and potentially three different software programs. When they compare this to the other workflows they are used to, it seems like a hassle to them. (While a Scratch system would resolve these issues, unfortunately there are none about that I know of.)

These aren't lazy or stupid people, they're just making business/time/money decisions. And for some of my clients all of those factors haven't come together for them yet. So for me, I don't believe there are any rumors to quell. This camera has a LOT going for it, and to not tout that to my clients would be nuts, as would not not admitting it's current potentail weaknesses compared to other workflows.

But I'm sure all of this will get better shortly and all my clients will join the fold.

[Dylan Reeve]

In our neck of the woods we'd almost always have an offline/online process anyway. Where editing is done at SD from a DV or Digi telecine. The finished edit is then conformed in a grading or online at HD or SD, graded and graphics added.

Personally I'm still a big fan of the offline/online process anyway.

[patrickortman]

>>But then you're probably the kind of producer who likes to stand over the editor's shoulder while munching fries and micromanaging every cut. You'd need to learn to stop that.<<

Yup, we've all had that happen. Gotta charge extra to clients like that, right?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I don't know what to think from the comments here, some people have no problems and say it's easy, others are bitching about how hard it is.

Easy (or hard) is in the eye of the beholder.

For some people, just getting out of bed in the morning is a challenge.

[Victoria C]

If you are looking for a thorough set of videos explaining the entire workflow through post, take a look at the training on FXphd.com.

This term has just started, so you can join the classes now. They have a RED workflow class (RED101), a RED "on set" class (DOP301), and a Scratch and Grading RED class (SCR201) this term. For $330 USD, you can take all three 10 week classes. Top notch, professional training, definitely worth the price tag.

I'm in no way affiliated with FXphd, other than being a student of these classes now... but if you want to help a girl out, :innocent: please use my member name (wanderlust) as your referral if you sign up for the classes, and I'll get a free class. Every penny I save is going towards #3145.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

First, I always supervise my work, yes, and not as a producer only, as a director. That's not always required for every aspect, but I am hands-on and while I trust my editor to make his own decisions, I enjoy being there for the process, even if it's just in the same room, so that I may offer feedback. It's my project. An editor is a paid professional, but his job is to give me what I want, not to make up his own version of what's supposed to happen. The way you get the best work out of everyone is to give them the slack and the freedom to be creative, but let them know what you're looking for, because anything could be edited many ways, not necessarily better or worse, just different. It's my job as the producer / director to know what the client wants, or in some cases what I want, and help steer things in that direction. I'm the one who is going to take the heat if we deliver something that's different from what they had in mind. So far on the work I've done, I really haven't been "the boss" on any of it, I've always had to answer to a client, a band, etc. My job is to make them happy, but maintain my artistic sensibilities and stay within the budget. That requires that I work closely with the editor, because I'm the type of director who believes a project comes together in the editing room.

I'm sure any editor would much rather edit from home, with nobody else there, so they can take breaks when they want, surf the net, post on RED User (hehe), check MySpace, etc. I still encourage my editor to do stuff like that while renders are in progress, whatever, I don't stand over their shoulder the whole time, but the process is going to take a LOT longer if I'm not there to answer feedback at least. There are too many decisions an editor cannot reasonably be expected to make without knowing more about what the client wants, and I'm the intermediary between the client and the production team. Sometimes, I make calls myself based on what I want, but other times I know what the client has in mind based on prior conversations and I need to figure out the best way to communicate that and see what works.

And, no, I don't mean that NO editor deserves more than $250/day, I'm only saying that you can indeed find very talented editors down here for that price. Maybe that's hard for you to believe, but there are plenty of people who really want to find work and have great reels, but there are more people than their are jobs at any given time.

I'm sorry some of you are bitter about the RED not being ideal with Avid right now, but Avid is an old editing system, it's the past, just like 35mm film is the past. I'm not saying you cannot make great projects shooting with 35 and finishing on Avid, obviously that's the way the majority of feature films have been done for a while now, all I'm saying is that isn't the "best way" anymore, it's just another way of doing things that hopefully fades with time as it should. Avid is a has-been system, with poor support and bad features, and there's nothing it can do that FCP can't do, except FCP can do more than Avid now with Final Cut Studio 2's other apps. So can CS3, for that matter. You can't edit with Avid without relying on some other company's apps, but you can edit with CS3 without relying on anything else. Now, with Final Cut, you still are probably going to need to use Photoshop for some things, but it's a complete editing solution. I'm sorry you don't agree, but for anyone to say that they think it's more stable editing on a WINDOWS-based machine, I'm sorry, you are really clueless about computers. I wouldn't trust anything on a Winblows platform. Good for you that you've been able to make it this far using that lousy OS. At least use Linux or something, because to edit pro work on Winblows and then tell ME I don't know what I'm talking about?! LOL, that's priceless.

[Wayne D]

ummm......have you ever used AVID?

I can use both FCP and AVID and they both do the same job well. But when it comes to big end jobs with complex media managemnet then there is only one system to get........you can guess which one.

oh - can you tell me why AVID is now making drives for FCP?

OS bashing is one i will stay away from as i firmly beleive that it all comes down to monkey hanging off the keyboard



..........peace from down under...........

[gbalaji]

I have heard producers say "no, we don't want to use RED, we don't want to have to cut with FCP."

Producers living in past world....

Come to reality.

Its not just tool that matter whether you use FCP / AVID, the people working on that really matters. I am from India and I managed more than 20 feature film projects using Final Cut Pro without any hiccups.

Avid world still believe media management is not better in FCP. But they also need to know with better people, management is pro by using FCP.

[Dylan Reeve]

Avid is a has-been system, with poor support and bad features, and there's nothing it can do that FCP can't do, except FCP can do more than Avid now with Final Cut Studio 2's other apps. So can CS3, for that matter. You can't edit with Avid without relying on some other company's apps, but you can edit with CS3 without relying on anything else.

Seriously you are making absolutely ridiculous statements. Avid has unmatched media management and collaborative workflow. Avid's toolset is very well crafted for certain tasks. It is not necessarily a finishing system (although it more than capable of finishing, and I personally have finished hundreds of hours of network broadcast TV on Media Composer). FCP has strengths in other areas, but is far from being a perfect solution either.


I'm sorry you don't agree, but for anyone to say that they think it's more stable editing on a WINDOWS-based machine, I'm sorry, you are really clueless about computers. I wouldn't trust anything on a Winblows platform. Good for you that you've been able to make it this far using that lousy OS. At least use Linux or something, because to edit pro work on Winblows and then tell ME I don't know what I'm talking about?! LOL, that's priceless.

The majority of edit suites I've used have been Avid on Windows, some Avid on Mac, and a few FCP suites. Mac OS is not inherently any more stable that Windows. I suffer serious crashes in FCP at least as often as I do in Avid in Windows, although the FCP ones seems to be more abrupt - the whole thing vanishes with no warning. The majority of professional television and feature editing now will be being conducted on Avid on Windows. Of the Macs, many will be older (PowerPC) Macs running older Avid versions with Meridian hardware (still working hard).


Avid world still believe media management is not better in FCP. But they also need to know with better people, management is pro by using FCP.

It's very clear that FCP has serious issues with media management. A roust offline/online process with FCP is borderline impossible. It is a powerful and capable application, but it is far from the magic bullet. Avid still has a very strong market position and offers features that are unmatched in other applications.

[Lee Dashiell]

I'm sorry some of you are bitter..............and then tell ME I don't know what I'm talking about?! LOL, that's priceless.

Check the mirror chief.

[Wayne D]

.......who started this thread?

best indoor sport i've seen for some time......

[Brandon Kraemer]

Jonathan and rest of the people who start this post,

There is nothing wrong with RED or any Digital Cinema Camera based acquisition. Instead of all the hardware gear you mentioned above, you need a better young dynamic team of editors / compositors to do file based work-flows. People complained NLE in the beginning and now if any editor doesn't work on NLE software are out of business and that will apply for all the technological advancement including file based acquisition.


Again, editor bashing?

It doesn't require an entire new way of thinking to migrate towards XML translation or file based workflow on the part of the editors. However, NLE tools have been perfected over the last 15-20 years to fully support the editors. My biggest complaint with the RED workflow to date is that all of the available software is still BETA, 3rd party BETA, and mostly unreliable because it is barely supported. With the release of the SDK, this is bound to change, but for now getting simple questions answered when technical problems arise, in a client driven atmosphere, is nearly impossible. This may not affect the independent feature workflow as much, but for the commercial broadcast deadline driven workflow, I have found it to be an issue that needs some addressing.

[Frank Weeks]

I’ve always believed that if you gave Spielberg, Scorsese, Malice and Dave Mullins 8mm movie cameras ,razor blades and an idea, that they would come up with more compelling content than the vast majority of professionals on the planet. Not because they had cutting edge technology on their side, but because they have creative vision and the passion to get the job done

With all the arguments about which NLE is the best and most creative, the truth is they will all do most of what we need to do quality productions. Yes, they all have their own bells and whistles that help us with speed and creatively, but I doubt any of them will turn us into creative geniuses.

The great thing is that, IMHO, all of the NLE’s discussed here (Avid, CS3, FCP, Vegas etc) will improve dramatically (speed) within the next 12 months. Until then I will just work a little slower in the NLE of my choice. I have waited 25 years for a camera like this. Even now the workflow is no worse than what I have had to deal with in film and linear post

One of the great transitions of this forum is that we no longer dwell on whether the camera will do what it is advertised to do. It will! We only have to wait for the workflow to catch up. Small price.

[Johann Schulz]

Hey Thor, (Sorry all, a bit of a backstroke for the Olympics!),

In your post #12 in this thread you say you're not a fan of Apple or FCP/FCS2 but you don't mention what you are a fan of. What do you think is better?

I've researched Macs and PCs for over ten years and it's few and far between that a PC has ever beaten a Mac! Prove me wrong! Unless you're counting viruses, spam, meddling by third parties, hideous designs which cause eye strain, instability with a side order of aggravation as you try to figure out who made what and where to find the fix... RED went with Apple first because they're the best. Now eat your broccoli! ;>)

BTW, I love you.

[Lee Dashiell]

I think that its pretty funny that "the best" is always what you own.

[Leo Ticheli]

Last week we had a visit from an Agency to tour our Red capabilities.

Their comment on arrival was, "We've heard Red makes nice pictures, but you can't really post it." I'm not making this up.

We took them to the studio, shot a table top then walked them right through edit.

They came away convinced that the Red makes pictures much better than just "nice" and that post is easy and straightforward. This week a storyboard arrived from them.

We have another client, one of the largest agencies extant, and we're hearing the same misinformation from them, even though we're already doing jobs for them with Red footage.

Obviously, some of this is coming from sales staff of other cameras, but it's also coming from an unlikely place; some post houses. I guess they're too incompetent to learn to handle Red footage.

Sad, really, considering that editing Red footage is about as difficult as making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. No, it's far less difficult and not nearly as messy.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

[Rob Gardner]

Leo, in the simplest way, what is the workflow you show them and with what hardware?
Thanks for your help
Rob Gardner

[Johann Schulz]

Leo, I want to go the more organic route:

Can we have a pic of you as a knarly old knot in a twisting old tree root that's barely ready to even try to smile? ;>)

On the Table: You're absolutely worth the respect and professionalism everyone here treats you with. I'm honoured to read and learn from you. Thanks a million!

[Leo Ticheli]

Hi Rob,

We shot to Red Drive: 4K, 16x9, 23.98 fps, RedCode 28.

Color Grade in RedCine to uncompressed 10-bit, 1080p, edit in FCS on Mac G5, 8-core, 16 GB RAM.

We also pulled some stills using RedAlert; I think the still frame capability blew them away more than anything else.

Good shooting!

Leo

[Rob Gardner]

Thanks, Leo. What was your render time to get to 10 bit 1080p?
Rob Gardner

[Thor Wixom]

Hey Thor, (Sorry all, a bit of a backstroke for the Olympics!),

In your post #12 in this thread you say you're not a fan of Apple or FCP/FCS2 but you don't mention what you are a fan of. What do you think is better?

I've researched Macs and PCs for over ten years and it's few and far between that a PC has ever beaten a Mac! Prove me wrong! Unless you're counting viruses, spam, meddling by third parties, hideous designs which cause eye strain, instability with a side order of aggravation as you try to figure out who made what and where to find the fix... RED went with Apple first because they're the best. Now eat your broccoli! ;>)

BTW, I love you.

Johann,

I am a fan of Premiere on a PC. I am aware of its shortcomings, but I prefer it. It's more intuitive to me.

Also, Apple releases new machines every so often. (About once or twice a year, I think? I don't follow that side as closely, so please correct me if I'm wrong.) And they usually stop short of the absolute fastest (read most expensive) configurations. They try to hit somewhere in the middle of price and performance, but on the PC side you can go as far toward performance as your budget will allow.

I have witnessed realtime 4k editing on PC laptop running Premiere, and utilizing the Cineform codec. You just can't do that on a Macbook Pro. Sorry, but you just can't.

No matter how much you might detest Microsoft, it's an open (enough) system to allow companies like Adobe to maximize what they can do with the coding. As opposed to Apple, who doesn't want companies poking around inside their code. In turn, Adobe's SDK allows companies like Cineform (and now Red) to plug into the architecture instead of being locked out.

Unless I'm mistaken, Apple wrote the code for the QT and FCP plug-ins (or at least the key components), not Red. This is why Red has had to weather criticisms about QT gamma, non-4k editing, etc, while not being able to improve the situation. For two years, it seemed that Red was not in control of its post destiny on the Mac side.

Conversely, Red was able to write their own code for Premiere and After Effects, and I believe this will lead to more progress in a shorter amount of time.

Apple had an exclusive for 2 years. Lets see how far things go on the Windows side in two years from now.

-Thor

[Steve Sherrick]

Sounds like we may need another post production workflow conference. :-)

Anyone want to travel to the Boston area? A post production bootcamp might be in order so people can see hands on how to work with Red footage in post from the low end, indy style up through the high end Scratch style.

Jonathan, this might be a good opportunity to witness an Avid first hand. Yes, Avid is old school, but they're also working their butts off to stay on the top of their game right now. They have toolsets that just are not as well implemented in other apps because they've had clients who are household names and you have to have an app that works as advertised to get those kind of clients. When they implement a Red workflow, it will be robust. Why? Because it has to be.

FCP is a wonderful suite of software. I use it all the time (I also use Avid on occasion and grew up on Avid). It still has room to grow. Hopefully Apple is willing to climb that mountain. Adobe seems serious about making some noise in the NLE world as well, and it looks very promising in terms of Red support. I look forward to seeing what it can do.

But we are dealing with the here and now, right? Okay, let's look at that.

FCP supports proxy editing, log/transfer editing, and of course transcoded footage. Glue Tools makes DPX possible in FCP. You can finish right in FCP using any of these methods or you can generate cut lists which can be taken to Crimson>Redcine/Redline, Color, Scratch, etc. FCP does not support 10 bit RGB. It does not support Red 4K, and it does not access the 4K R3D natively.

Avid has some interim workflows in place utilizing 3rd party software which allow you to import QT reference files and associated metadata. Avid is working on solutions that will streamline this process, and with the release of the SDK this should get the ball rolling soon I would think. Avid will be a major player in this. It only makes sense. And when they do catch up, so won't a lot of the industry.

Adobe will have full native Red support in the coming weeks. Open up an R3D in Premiere Pro, choose debarying settings, adjust metadata, finish in Premiere or open natively in After Effects. This has a lot of potential and due to Adobe's support for RAW image processing, we might see some of those benefits with Red.

It's all getting there. It hasn't happened as fast as we would like in some ways, but I think we have to remember that we went from most of us maxing out at 1080P for our HD shoots to 4K resolution practically overnight. Our expectations are high, and no doubt there's a lot on the line here, but we have to take logical steps to get to where we need to go.

So, what do you think, Red Post bootcamp? Maybe this fall. Boston? The leaves on the trees will be nice and colorful. We can even test out the codec, see if we can break it. :-)

For those who were at the NAB workflow event, I felt like we were just starting to crack the surface. We are much further along now, and will be even more so in a couple of months.

[adiel4]

paintthetownred, this company wasn't started to do your job for you.

If you can't get (or keep) clients or projects then that is YOUR PROBLEM. Not Red's.

If you want a tutorial so bad, make it yourself.

These people don't live to coddle you.

Be a professional. Stop demanding things and start relying on your own abilities.


Think for a moment how aggressive Apple has always been in educating people about FCS, that is a big part of their success making it the standard NLE it is now (at the expense of Avid). Red One is a new company with a new paradigm and they must do a way better job to make training material readily available... THEY are the ones competing with panavision, arri, thomson viper, dalsa.... but at this point they still look just like a science project....

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

Think for a moment how aggressive Apple has always been in educating people about FCS, that is a big part of their success making it the standard NLE it is now (at the expense of Avid).

I would not say it is "the" standard.

There is no real definitive winner. They all have strengths and downfalls.