Have you paid back your $30K+ investment?

[Aaron G.]

I was wondering out of curiosity. Has everyone who intended on working their Red's paid off their initial investments?

I've contemplated getting a Red, but the price is pretty huge. I'm relatively young but would like to start doing some freelance videography/ cinematography.

What is the best way to market yourself, and build cliental?

Thank you,
Aaron

[Cüneyt Kaya]

depends on where you are located, how established you are, your network, etc.

know guys renting out their red for 250 Dollars a day (fully equipped with lenses)
but also know guys renting out the red without lenses for 800-1000 Dollars a day without a problem.


really depends on the circumstances you are in right now.
i would forget about buying a red for rentals only...

but you know best...calculate how much you would earn with a red...
if its ok for you...do it.

nobody can decide for you.

good luck finding the answer :)

[Martin Weiss]

Keep in mind that right now there are less than 2000 cameras in the wild. If you order one now, there'll be over 5000 by the time you get it.

[Aaron G.]

depends on where you are located, how established you are, your network, etc.

know guys renting out their red for 250 Dollars a day (fully equipped with lenses)
but also know guys renting out the red without lenses for 800-1000 Dollars a day without a problem.


really depends on the circumstances you are in right now.
i would forget about buying a red for rentals only...

but you know best...calculate how much you would earn with a red...
if its ok for you...do it.

nobody can decide for you.

good luck finding the answer :)

Appreciate it!

I'm located in Dallas, and so far it seems like the Red is pretty scarce... But for how long?

I've asked for quotes for Red shooters locally, and they're charging OUTRAGEOUS prices (for low-budget narrative shorts). So I can only assume they're getting what there asking.

I've thought about starting a user-friendly (indie) production house (greenscreen studio/ sound stage/ ADR studio's/ editing suites/ and rentals). But I wonder how lucrative it could be. Especially nearing the "SCARLETfever," and the release of more Red ONES.

I have a vision that major cinema (AMC/ CINEMARK) will start to deteriorate, and smaller cinema's with HD projectors will be the norm. Think of myspace. There are TONS of indie bands on there, and they have substantial fan bases. Could we have loads of "micro-directors" producing quality "micro-features?"

If so, I'd say mastering the art, and providing user-friendly production houses, and small room theateres (charging $5 instead of $10 admission) are a thing of the future. AND there is still lots of money to be made through self-distro.

Just babbling....

[Gunleik Groven]

I have the feeling that people are allready NOT renting the bodies, but the knowledge and competence around the system. Which is good...

And it is paying for a lot more around itself.

[Jim Hoffman]

$30,000 - HA! I wish!

I'm having a great time. This thing is awesome.

[M Most]

I have a vision that major cinema (AMC/ CINEMARK) will start to deteriorate, and smaller cinema's with HD projectors will be the norm. Think of myspace. There are TONS of indie bands on there, and they have substantial fan bases. Could we have loads of "micro-directors" producing quality "micro-features?"


Only if none of them care about making a living.

[Noah Kadner]

Well are most of us in it for the dough? If so- take a good look at the numbers, not exactly an upwardly mobile profession. More like the sort of luck you get playing the lottery.

Noah

[Aaron G.]

Only if none of them care about making a living.

With self-distro, new distro companies based on indie films and distro to these smaller theaters, and more importantly the world wide web... Anything is possible. You've just gotta get more creative.

Why can't a filmmaker set up a tour around the US at these art houses?

Filmmakers could and should be the new rock stars!

[Aaron G.]

Well are most of us in it for the dough? If so- take a good look at the numbers, not exactly an upwardly mobile profession. More like the sort of luck you get playing the lottery.

Noah

Agreed.

I care more about developing true fans as a filmmaker then making a couple hundred grand on a more then likely one time deal with lack of creative freedom. There are ALOT of chances given but ALOT of directors are just one hit (if that) wonders.

[Aaron G.]

There's not to say I wouldn't mind the big chance, and a couple hundred grand. :wink:

[Evin Grant]

a Red One is not a business plan. Think of it like reverse Kevin Costner, if they come, build it. If you already have the network and clients it's a great investment, if not spend your money on your reel, it will make you a much better return.

[Aaron G.]

a Red One is not a business plan. Think of it like reverse Kevin Costner, if they come, build it. If you already have the network and clients it's a great investment, if not spend your money on your reel, it will make you a much better return.

Thanks Evin! I agree with what your saying. I wish I could fork out the $30k min it'd take for a usable Red setup.

Needless to say I'm salavating for Scarlet. Hopefully I'll build my client base and have a need to purchase a Red One at some point... It's nice to dream.

I more or less thread jacked my thread... I've just been thinking of what great things we could see in the near future.

[Nick Gardner]

Well are most of us in it for the dough? If so- take a good look at the numbers, not exactly an upwardly mobile profession.

Well if you buy a camera, call yourself a DP, and shoot crap, no you are not going to make a lot of money. If you realize that is an art and a craft, and that it will take you years to understand how little you actually knew when you started, you bust your ass, you have some talent, and you stick with it, you can do pretty damn well (not directed at you, have no idea of your experience or commitment).

It's called the film business, not the film hobby. All the professionals I know do pretty well for them selves. Want to be a director? Get in the DGA training program. It's hard, it sucks, you'll make no money for a few years. But it will pay off long term.Want to be a DP? I suggest a few hard years in the trenches as an AC and then an operator. Learn and make $5-800 a day while doing it.

I love hearing grips with tattoos, and pirate facial hair talk about who the best massage therapist in town is, and bitching about the shitty quality of the bottled water on set ;-) But I'm from Baltimore, and we all know what thats like ;-)

I support my wife and two kids, own my house, I'm pretty happy with the return on my time/blood/sweat investment.

Nick

[TOM K. JONES]

Muleskinnerfilms has been not only able to secure long term rental agreements and clients but made grand leaps towards our doc and film projects. This was only possible because of "the clapp" (my RED). Now, I dominate a region with out many Reds, so I am maybe one of the exceptions, not the rule. Lucky is what my wife and my friends call it, but I've waited too long for this opportunity to care. No matter what the only way to sell the RED is by having a good RED reel, with footage from other HD and SD sources to compare. We also hooked most of our big clients with a "special" (commercial at discount) which paid off with a larger long term contract. This isn't recommended for politicians...get your money up front. Its Art no matter how you look at it and its always a gamble, still a better one than moving to NYC/LA to become an actor. Good Luck and Good shooting.

[Charles Nader]

depends on where you are located, how established you are, your network, etc.

know guys renting out their red for 250 Dollars a day (fully equipped with lenses)
but also know guys renting out the red without lenses for 800-1000 Dollars a day without a problem.


really depends on the circumstances you are in right now.
i would forget about buying a red for rentals only...

but you know best...calculate how much you would earn with a red...
if its ok for you...do it.

nobody can decide for you.

good luck finding the answer :)

Love to know who are the guys that a renting their RED ONE for $250 with lenses? I have yet to find thoses RED rental rates...

Shooting a feature, neediing RED ONE in Sept/Oct and most of the rentals I have been receiving are beyond $1,200.00/day rate WITHOUT lenses.

So, I presume these guys are making money. If not, they are making extra beer money...Sweet!!!

Thanks.

[Stephen Williams]

Love to know who are the guys that a renting their RED ONE for $250 with lenses? I have yet to find thoses RED rental rates...

Shooting a feature, neediing RED ONE in Sept/Oct and most of the rentals I have been receiving are beyond $1,200.00/day rate WITHOUT lenses.

So, I presume these guys are making money. If not, they are making extra beer money...Sweet!!!

Thanks.

Hi,

I was discussing a project on Thursday & got offered a Red for free for a production.

Stephen

[gdv]

If you can't get your return of investment from a Red rental then there is no point of having one. The post is so expensive that I don't see what's the idea for an individual possessing a red one camera, just for having one.
Especially when you have new models knocking at the door.
I think in the medium to long run this strange strategy of Red, flooding the market with 4000-5000 cameras and rushing to next models, without assuring that you have even one model that deliver the product will knock them back.

[Charles Nader]

Hi,

I was discussing a project on Thursday & got offered a Red for free for a production.

Stephen

Okay...how long is your project schedule? Is it 3-4 weeks like mine.

Good job...

[Stephen Williams]

Okay...how long is your project schedule? Is it 3-4 weeks like mine.

Good job...

Hi,

5 weeks, I think we could be getting to the point that supply exceeds demand as far as rentals.

Stephen

[Charles Nader]

If you can't get your return of investment from a Red rental then there is no point of having one. The post is so expensive that I don't see what's the idea for an individual possessing a red one camera, just for having one.
Especially when you have new models knocking at the door.
I think in the medium to long run this strange strategy of Red, flooding the market with 4000-5000 cameras and rushing to next models, without assuring that you have even one model that deliver the product will knock them back.


Hi gdv,

Explain...how post is so expensive? I know their are costs but most people are editing on Macs using FCP. Sure, for professional post house to do CC and DI will be expensive if you go that route, but if not...I think its pretty cheap comparing to film costs producing the project on film stock, processing, lab work, dailies, distrubution, etc.

I'm confused?

I know some RED owners who basically bought the camera to shoot their own stuff, like a feature film or such. They didn't buy it to make profit with it, they wanted like most of us, to finally shoot with superiour image quality and actually own the camera. Before, unless you were very rich, you couldn't buy a camera...now with RED...we can. In the old days, most had to rent. Dropping tens of thousands or even hundreds to shoot a movie.

Charles

[Charles Nader]

Hi,

5 weeks, I think we could be getting to the point that supply exceeds demand as far as rentals.

Stephen


Fanastic...I had no luck on a deal like yourself. Why would anyone do that...unless its a personal friend or collugue that is willing to do such a nice favor for you.

Sweet.

[Mark L. Pederson]

The democratization of tools for production and post driven by technology continues to push the rental business away from the "old school rental house model". It's about SERVICE and EXPERTISE and ADDED VALUE services you can bundle.

You can think the rental business is all about price driven by supply and demand, but I assure you, smart producers and companies understand the value of expertise and service, and they will pay "over market" for that and save money in the long run. And they will have less stress and less grief.

[Stephen Williams]

and they will pay "over market" for that and save money in the long run. And they will have less stress and less grief.

Hi,

I find the same to be true being a DOP.

Stephen

[Florian Stadler]

I heard there are 20 people in Switzerland running after Stephen trying to PAY HIM to touch their cameras and anoint their cameras to godlike status...

Nei aber so oeppis gits doch gar noed....

Last time I checked an HVX200 still rents for 200-250/day and a DVX100 for 100-150...

Sorry I couldn't resist.

[Charles Nader]

The democratization of tools for production and post driven by technology continues to push the rental business away from the "old school rental house model". It's about SERVICE and EXPERTISE and ADDED VALUE services you can bundle.

You can think the rental business is all about price driven by supply and demand, but I assure you, smart producers and companies understand the value of expertise and service, and they will pay "over market" for that and save money in the long run. And they will have less stress and less grief.


I agree. Sure, film life is easier with talented and experienced crew and D.P.

Yes, less stress is good.

[gdv]

Charles,
have you tried shooting 4K and editing it at home on your Mac? Have you tried doing it for a feature film? or most of Red owners plan of making a short 5 minutes movie?
And like you said what about CC? DI? and the rest for bringing it to final?
If you are a production company and have a feature to shoot for a budget of $200K which will return even only $300K and you plan on doing 5 features for the next 5 years then this is something else.
But I think a lot bought this camera for renting it and I doubt if they see their money back with Red's marketing strategy.

[Stephen Williams]

I heard there are 20 people in Switzerland running after Stephen trying to PAY HIM to touch their cameras and anoint their cameras to godlike status...

Nei aber so oeppis gits doch gar noed....

Last time I checked an HVX200 still rents for 200-250/day and a DVX100 for 100-150...

Sorry I couldn't resist.

Hi Florian,

I don't speak German so thats lost on me.

Cheers,

Stephen

[Steve Sanacore]

Charles,
have you tried shooting 4K and editing it at home on your Mac? Have you tried doing it for a feature film? or most of Red owners plan of making a short 5 minutes movie?
And like you said what about CC? DI? and the rest for bringing it to final?
If you are a production company and have a feature to shoot for a budget of $200K which will return even only $300K and you plan on doing 5 features for the next 5 years then this is something else.
But I think a lot bought this camera for renting it and I doubt if they see their money back with Red's marketing strategy.

I really doubt that most RED owners planned or are planning on making most of their money renting the camera, (unless you are are rental house already).

I will have mine available for rent, hopefully along with me as the DP or Director. In other words, as an asset that comes with me, not on it's own.

But right now I think most producers and cameramen are still waiting for RED to prove itself. But when RED becomes 100% as reliable as an Arri, and post production is readily available, demand may jump up fairly quickly and overtake supply for a little while depending on how fast RED can deliver.

[Marc Berger]

I second that.
It´s a part of my business to rent it out, but just beside. The real renting out business needs much more then a Red One (or Epic) and a couple of lenses. The big renting houses who can offer everything (Cams, all possible lenses, complete lighting, technicians with skill...) don´t have enough Red´s to feed the demand currently. And the complete service is the reason why they can rent out the cam expensive and make profit in very short time.
Marc

[Tom Lowe]

Pros in LA who already have a lot of contacts and are established will make their money back lickety-split. Noobs and people in remote cities will take longer to earn back 30K.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Trying to discuss rental rates is somewhat pointless. We've all tried it here before and it didn't work out so well. Prices vary from one market to another. Around my area, $250/day will barely get you an HVX and one or two P2 cards, no support, etc.. I can find RED rentals cheaper in LA or places where the cameras are more plentiful, but by the time I pay for insured shipping here and back, I don't save any money unless I'm doing a long-term rental.

If someone wants to essentially whore-out their camera kit for below market rates, that's their business. I don't see it working out too well for them in the long term. It will take more rentals and more wear and tear on their equipment to pay it off. The real benefit to a good rental house is what others have said. Good service and expertise to go along with the gear. I've looked at renting out my gear and I can't make the numbers work in my area. I can make more money by picking up the camera a couple days a week and shooting stock or putting my effort into finding work that goes beyond just supplying a camera and being someone's tech / DIT / AC / set-monkey. There's not a huge amount of that sort of work in this state anyway.

As far as paying off my RED investment... Every time I shoot a video of my kids in 4K, like my son's 3rd birthday, or my daughter's ballet recital, I feel as if the camera has paid for itself. But that's just me. If we want to talk about actual billings and collecting funds from clients to recover the monetary investment, that differs too. I think I've recovered a bit more than half the cost of the RED One body with what I've billed for using it. Realistically, it will probably take me a good year from receiving all my RED kit to come close to paying it off and lately I haven't been using it that much. At least not on paying gigs, my current projects involve other equipment. I don't make it a habit to buy equipment that won't pay for itself within 12 to 18 months, but with the RED I bought it anyway. Although, I don't think I'll have a problem with it returning the investment, even with very light professional use in the 2.5 months I've owned it.

[gdv]

Pros in LA who already have a lot of contacts and are established will make their money back lickety-split. Noobs and people in remote cities will take longer to earn back 30K.

I surely hope you are right, but I doubt.
There are a few points that stand against all this.
1. The Red one camera was created to be a motion picture camera, to create images for the big screen. That's how it was presented >>> 4K!!!
2. However, from what I read people are having it to shoot their kids and family?... they have in hand a powerful tool but not more than ... to have the feeling that they are part of the desirable glamorous Hollywood-Motion-Picture-industry...?
3. The motion picture industry was in the last 30-40 years a rental market.
4. Flooding the market with more than 4000 Red one cameras that are still in the process of building (15, 16, 17...) doesn't work for this kind of industry.
5. Working on two other models (Scarlet and Epic) while the first camera is still struggling to survive doesn't help.
I had this argument with other owners before, I quoted big rentals house, users attacked me for that because they don't like to hear that.
There is a big chance that in a few years 4000 people will have a camera in their hand and will be able to do nothing with it.
If you look at the history of the film you will find tens of formats from 9.5mm 17mm 20 something mm, 3 x projections, 360 degrees projections with syncronized 11 projections, drive-in movies etc that are nothing today. When it is film it is still 35mm mostly.
I hope I am wrong but I maybe right big time.

[Marc Berger]

It pays back the investment:

If you are a independent with long term projects and would spend otherways a lot of money to rent equipment,
if you have one or two client who want a pub on 35mm (and are ready to give you the same amount of money, even you do it digital),
if you need to own a camera because you´re not booked out as a DOP and you want to work every day to advance your skills (you don´t always get the money directly back from your investment),
if for your daily jobs you need anyway a HPX 500 or 3000, but you want to work with 35mm lenses,
and last, but not least, if you rent it out.
You could add a lot of reasons why it pays back the investment, and I´m sure we have every possible combination in this forum, why people buy a Red.
Marc

[Steve Sanacore]

Making the RED pay for itself is very simple for me. Just do the math. How much does 35mm film cost these days, and then process and transfer?

Add to that the cost of renting a 435 body and see how fast it will add up to the cost of your RED. After that, it's like shooting 35mm film quality for free (other than the labor).

And this doesn't include any paying jobs you may get as DP with your camera.

I really don't see an issue at all in recouping this investment rather quickly.

[Ed Watkins]

I bought two REDs, rented one for a while and then sold it for a markup.
It paid for my other package.

I still have to pay back some of the more pricey accessories, but I'm under no pressure to pay back loans, and I can focus on using my gear on my projects.

[Mark L. Pederson]

while the first camera is still struggling to survive

"struggling to survive "??

Huh?

You must be on a different planet than I am.

[gdv]

Marc and Steve
Wait till you get your Red and you will see. Insurance, cables, repairs, matte box follow focus, monitors etc. It just begin with the Red you can never know when it ends.
As for your own projects this is something else. If you plan one project every year for the next 5 years and these projects will sell than you may return your investment at least from not renting a 35mm camera. But this only happen if you are a fruitful producer/director, it will not happen if you are having a Red for just having it.
As for some of us who bought it for renting we will just have to wait and see but with a camera which is still fighting for its place on the stage and with 4000 others and two "sisters" that are coming you can not be too sure.

[gdv]

"struggling to survive "??

Huh?

You must be on a different planet than I am.

I guess I am. I am not in the USA and here it is a different story.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

1. The Red one camera was created to be a motion picture camera, to create images for the big screen. That's how it was presented >>> 4K!!!

Yes, it was and is presented as such. It is also presented, and used by many, for more.


2. However, from what I read people are having it to shoot their kids and family?... they have in hand a powerful tool but not more than ... to have the feeling that they are part of the desirable glamorous Hollywood-Motion-Picture-industry...?

Or maybe some of us shoot kids and family because we can since we own it. I could never justify shooting the family with 35mm film. But I can with RED. Doesn't mean the camera doesn't get used professionally and doesn't mean I bought it to feel I'm a part of the Hollywood crowd. There are always going to be hobbyists that buy such cameras for personal use, what does that matter? I bought the camera for both personal and professional use. And I'm tempted to buy another, but I'm holding off in case I want to upgrade to Epic.


3. The motion picture industry was in the last 30-40 years a rental market.

So? Everything changes. For the time being, it's still going to be a largely rental-based market. If better cameras come available for less money, then that's just great. The camera is only one piece to a very large puzzle.


4. Flooding the market with more than 4000 Red one cameras that are still in the process of building (15, 16, 17...) doesn't work for this kind of industry.

How is that "flooding" the market. They are only shipping cameras that are being purchased. So they are technically just meeting demand.


5. Working on two other models (Scarlet and Epic) while the first camera is still struggling to survive doesn't help.

Hmm... Perhaps they're working on Scarlet and Epic because the RED is a huge success and these are two more products to compliment the RED One.


I had this argument with other owners before, I quoted big rentals house, users attacked me for that because they don't like to hear that.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. A lot of people scoffed at RED in the beginning, there's still a lot of disinformation out there, but things are quickly changing. Most of the bigger rental houses these days are interested in the RED One and several have a few now. It's one more avenue of income and RED owners are just more potential rental customers. Of the rental houses in my area, one was very critical of RED up until NAB '08. The last two times I have been in there, they have offered to buy my camera and I believe they have one or two on order.


There is a big chance that in a few years 4000 people will have a camera in their hand and will be able to do nothing with it.

And there's a big chance that I could get hit by a bus while crossing the street. In a few years, my RED will have paid for itself many times over. It's not like 4000 RED One owners are going to just stop using the camera. Even if something goes very wrong and RED folds, we all still have cameras that are proving to be viable production tools every day. There are about 2000 cameras out in the wild and cruising these forums shows a very low number of actual complaints and problems. I think it will be OK... But if not, I just move on to the next best thing. I'm not sure where all the gloom and doom is coming from.


If you look at the history of the film you will find tens of formats from 9.5mm 17mm 20 something mm, 3 x projections, 360 degrees projections with syncronized 11 projections, drive-in movies etc that are nothing today. When it is film it is still 35mm mostly.
I hope I am wrong but I maybe right big time.

And this relates to RED how? RED is not introducing new film sizes or new formats, only a new codec to acquire images that drop into existing standards. It is a new codec, but it is recorded to commodity media by one very impressive camera. A new codec is something that Panasonic, Sony and others do every now and then with a fair amount of success. REDCODE is already seeing far more interest than DVCPROHD saw for the first few years of its lifespan. 35mm film has been feeling the crunch from HD production for some time, the future is all digital and RED is one giant step in that direction. 10 years from now, there will still be people shooting on film, but that will be an artistic choice and not one based on economics or image quality.

BTW... Drive-In movies are still around and they're trying to make a come-back with new sound delivery methods. Not that I really support the movement or anything, I think it kinda sucks to sit in your car and watch a movie.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Marc and Steve
Wait till you get your Red and you will see. Insurance, cables, repairs, matte box follow focus, monitors etc. It just begin with the Red you can never know when it ends.

True, but hopefully anyone buying the camera at least has some realization of this. However, this is true with just about any piece of equipment, not just cameras.


As for your own projects this is something else. If you plan one project every year for the next 5 years and these projects will sell than you may return your investment at least from not renting a 35mm camera. But this only happen if you are a fruitful producer/director, it will not happen if you are having a Red for just having it.

There are many ways to skin a cat, or so they say... Also many ways to make money with a camera like RED. Not everyone using it has to be a producer, director, filmmaker, etc.. I've incorporated RED into two of my businesses, neither of which involve filmmaking. ...Filmmaking is something I do as a hobby and it usually involves half-assing a script together the day of the shoot once I see who actually shows up to participate.


As for some of us who bought it for renting we will just have to wait and see but with a camera which is still fighting for its place on the stage and with 4000 others and two "sisters" that are coming you can not be too sure.

Rentals are a tough way to go. I think if you have a decent RED kit, renting it can be a way to generate a little extra when you're not using it, but I would never go out and buy a piece of equipment like a RED One just for the purpose of renting it out. Unless I was already an established rental house just looking to pick up one more piece of rental gear.

[Charles Nader]

Charles,
have you tried shooting 4K and editing it at home on your Mac? Have you tried doing it for a feature film? or most of Red owners plan of making a short 5 minutes movie?
And like you said what about CC? DI? and the rest for bringing it to final?
If you are a production company and have a feature to shoot for a budget of $200K which will return even only $300K and you plan on doing 5 features for the next 5 years then this is something else.
But I think a lot bought this camera for renting it and I doubt if they see their money back with Red's marketing strategy.

Hi gdv,

Actually, no...not yet. But I read and been talking to people that are using Mac Pro and are editing the RED files...maybe not 4K but in ProRes422 for commericals and feature films. They can shoot, transfer, edit, and do a final edit...maybe not 4K final but if your feature is a good movie...you should be able to raise the dough or budget to output it in 4K or make a 35mm print. Again, if there is a interest in your movie, and if they (distributors) think they can make a profit...they will spend the money to do so. Sure, CC and DI are expensive but at least we (filmmakers/artist) can now do it from the comfort of their home than an editing bay at a post house. In the future, it will be available, and yes, it will be cheaper. A RED workflow will be developed and pioneered for all to use as reference...it will be a glorious 4K world.

"Most RED owners plan of making a short 5 minutes movie? Why...they can make a 3hr epic movie, edit and output in 2k or HD and see if their is interest. If not, make another one. That's the point of the camera is, like the digital SLR market. Most Pro photograhers are all shooting digital, because its cheaper, faster and easier like our RED is.

Just because 4000-5000 RED ONE will be out in the marketplace doesn't mean the camera will be dead. Look at the digital SLR market, you can buy a amazing 35mm + (10-12 megapizel) camera, get great images, but not everyone is a Pro photographer. You still need talent and decidation, and computer know how (Photoshop) to hone your craft and most aren't willing to do. Some are and they become Pro's because now they have the chance... never had it before using just amazing digital instruments.

I think most RED users here, are not only using it to rent. They are aspiring filmmakers/artist/DP to venture in their own project or in the world of 4k to show their talents in different ways to show the best images possible and that is why the RED One was invented, thanks Jim and co...

My two cents...

[Tom Lowe]

Finishing 4K is pointless unless you are doing a filmout, so this is sort of a false argument to keep harping on the point that 4K is so "difficult" on modern computers. Nevermind that computers double in power every 11 months or so. People are not giving you a hard time because you are dissing Red. They are giving you a hard time because your arguments don't make a lot of sense, gdv.

There is no reason to finish at 4K with a Red One unless you are doing filmout... The camera barely has 3K worth of information going to your recording device. You can always save the RAW 4K files as archives, just in case your masterpiece is the 1 in a 1,000 that Weinstein decides to distribute. But otherwise, finish at 2K, which any decent editing system should be able to handle.

To claim that you cannot earn back 30K is silly. If your rental rate is $1,000/day for a package, hopefully you will shoot that many days (30) in the first six months or a year. For bigger shows, if you are DPing or whatever, you might get much, much higher rates.

Like I said, if you're a pro who shoots a lot and knows a lot of people you will earn the 30K back quickly. If you're a noob or live in Timbuktu, it will take much longer.

To use the DSLR analogy, any chump on Flickr can spend $15,000 on a Canon 1DsM3 and lenses, or $40K on a Hassy, but it's only the pros who will earn that investment back quickly. If you're shooting your kids and dogs you will not.

[michael webb]

the film and television market has always had economic barriers to entering into the industry. mainly the price of the machinery to produce the end product. I think you have to follow the trends of other industries and see how things are going to go ..

the two simple and most closely aligned would be the print and photography industries. photography would be the closest right now due to the equipment. any consumer can go to B&H or wolf camera etc and buy a pro class camera and lens. what he does with it is up to him the cost difference between a advanced amateur and pro class digital SLR body is not 100x difference more like 2x to 3x. I think this is where RED is pushing for and others will be soon especially since things have gone digital. digital means no tolerances in the MFG process nor crazy material costs between plastic gears and metal gears etc. This will bring cost down in an ever increasing fashion. the glass will always make a difference. But the difference between bodies will shrink. The cost of buying into the game shrink dramatically and no longer will it be pay to play but every man for himself. look at the print world. the old school printshops with the bins of type and books of clip art are long gone. Every one does it their selves on a PC in their office and sends it off to a duplicator, excuse me, output house who makes the quantities. this is a trend that has been going on for a couple of decades it happen in the 60s for the photo guys with the advent of the easy to use SLRs and in the 90s with the printshops. It will happen to the video guys at the turn of this century and it will happen to the film world. what will mater is the craftsmanship of those who use the tools and their creativity.

the thing is, tools are a product of technology, and have been since they were created, technology pushes the price down of the tools, putting the tools into more peoples hands which drive the creation of more tools and better processes and improved tools at a lower cost and into more peoples hands. over and over. A "red" camera and any camera are subject to this chain. the technology will change. I mean how many real day to day, making money, earning a living photographers shoot on medium format vs how many switched to digital. Kodak stopped making paper after a hundred years. ten years ago the industry would have called anyone a moron had they predicted that. how many furniture makers use a hand plane vs a power planer. yes thes cameras will be obsolete and for a lot of money. Post housed have changed with the digital technologies and the cameras are about to do the same. When they change the rental house and ownership of the tools will change accordingly. Add in the changes in distribution, I think certain practices will change. just remeber the golden ages of the cowboys and cattle drives were only about 50 years. The cowboys are mostly in movies and there's a hamburger stand on every corner.


I surely hope you are right, but I doubt.
There are a few points that stand against all this.
1. The Red one camera was created to be a motion picture camera, to create images for the big screen. That's how it was presented >>> 4K!!!
2. However, from what I read people are having it to shoot their kids and family?... they have in hand a powerful tool but not more than ... to have the feeling that they are part of the desirable glamorous Hollywood-Motion-Picture-industry...?
3. The motion picture industry was in the last 30-40 years a rental market.
4. Flooding the market with more than 4000 Red one cameras that are still in the process of building (15, 16, 17...) doesn't work for this kind of industry.
5. Working on two other models (Scarlet and Epic) while the first camera is still struggling to survive doesn't help.
I had this argument with other owners before, I quoted big rentals house, users attacked me for that because they don't like to hear that.
There is a big chance that in a few years 4000 people will have a camera in their hand and will be able to do nothing with it.
If you look at the history of the film you will find tens of formats from 9.5mm 17mm 20 something mm, 3 x projections, 360 degrees projections with syncronized 11 projections, drive-in movies etc that are nothing today. When it is film it is still 35mm mostly.
I hope I am wrong but I maybe right big time.

[Nick Gardner]

the film and television market has always had economic barriers to entering into the industry

Only if you want to open a rental house and buy a bunch of gear. The majority of industry professionals don't own equipment. And even if you did want to start a rental house, it would be no different than wanting to start a company that makes table saws. You have to borrow money, have a plan and make it work. It doesn't make any difference whether you are buying a million dollars worth of film gear, or a million dollars worth of Mills, metal brakes, and grinders.


digital means no tolerances in the MFG process nor crazy material costs between plastic gears and metal gears etc.

This does not apply to the motion picture industry. the camera body is just one investment, and although a pricey one, I have way more money invested in AKS and support than the camera body. I have yet to see a digital ARRI head, and I'm sure that Jim will be glad to hear that because of digital he will no longer have to have his 19mm rods precision ground, and I'm sure that all those new digital follow focus motors have no moving parts. Hell I guess when I get my Red I can sell all my machine tools.

This stuff is expensive. It will always be expensive. Anything cheaper than what most stuff sells for now will be a compromise of some sort. When you buy the best made, made the best way, regardless of how expensive it is to make, failure is not an option shit, it is going to cost money. Period.

No body is making you spend money on gear. I don't understand this feeling that so many hobbiest/indie film makers have that some how they are entitled to make films, and Holly Wood is trying to screw them out of their god given right. It is hard to make films well. If you want someone to hire you to do it, you should probably have a lot of experience working on sets, and be able to prove that you can bring a quality production in on time, and on budget.

There are plenty of shooters that make great pictures but are shitty DP's. Being a good DP, at least one that makes a living, is as much about making the day, as it is about making it pretty. If you shoot fabulous glorious images, but you only make half your day, or go into stupid overtime and meal penalties because you were not co-ordinating the three depts. you are in charge of well, you are going to get fired.

It is the Film BUSINESS.

Ok, thats enough, just got home from a really long shoot.

;-)

Nick

[laguun]

Hi,

I was discussing a project on Thursday & got offered a Red for free for a production.

Stephen

Why dont you use your own red? i thought you bought 50% of one?

[Stephen Williams]

Why dont you use your own red? i thought you bought 50% of one?

Hi,

I already told you I don't have an investment in Red at this time. I don't like supplying equipment on Paying jobs, I think it's a conflict of interest. I am being paid as a DOP, I should spend my time doing what I am paid for rather than eqipment support.

My best

Stephen

[Michael Lindsay]

I should spend my time doing what I am paid for rather than eqipment support.


I have allot of respect for this position. Debating this issue with myself at the moment. Problem is there isn't a hire house that could hire me the Red kit we bought.

One question: Why will you buy Epic?

Regards

Michael Lindsay

[Stephen Williams]

I have allot of respect for this position. One question: Why will you buy Epic?

Regards

Michael Lindsay

Hi,

I do have a personal project in mind for Epic, If that does not work out after testing, I will shoot it on 35mm. I won't rent it out, renting equipment is a major headache, they always want some equipment you don't have, somethimg will get broken, cables will get lost. I have some 35mm equipment I will use for 'B' roll, background plates & tests, but only if it's just me and a director, never with a client & big crew. In the last year I have used the kit 4 times, only once was paid.

Stephen