RED One + HVX200 mixed sequence

[Michael MK Siu]

Dear all,

We have an upcoming RED shoot, and in the script is an underwater sequence. The sequence is short (~20 seconds), and the only underwater casing we can secure is for the HVX200.

We will be shooting RED in 4K 2:1. and our delivery will be on HDCam SR.

Of course the aesthetic for the underwater shots can (and will) be quite different. But we are wondering if any one would have any advice on settings and approach to allow us to "match" the sequences as closely as possible - not just in image, but also in regards to post workflow.

Should we shoot with a 720p setting on the HVX200, or 1080p? We are offlining on ProRes? Should the HVX200 sequence be transcoded to ProRes for the offline, or left at DVCProHD since FCP now handles mixed formats?

Thanks for any advice and suggestions.

Cheers,
Michael
---
[www.dvshortfilms.com]
[www.mksiu.com]

[Noah Kadner]

I'd Finish on a DVCPROHD 1080p timeline and export the final to ProRes or 10-bit uncompressed for prep to HDCAM SR. It should look great and there's no reason to do a 2K edit in this case.

Noah

[Mike Harrington]

remember the hvx is 1080i not 1080p

tough choice....if you stay at 720p your in progressive which the sensor was designed to do also you could more easily match motionblur of red's(though underwater so it shouldn't matter)

also you have access to the overcranking framerates, which you don't using 1080i, and you have access to the PN formats 720/24pn,30/pn....which will double recording time(again maybe not a concern)

i would stay progressive, and do a high quality uprez(lanczos filter)
after all, the HVX is barely 720 (960x540 sensor....and that's WITH pixel shifting)

[Matthew Verkler]

remember the hvx is 1080i not 1080p

tough choice....if you stay at 720p your in progressive which the sensor was designed to do also you could more easily match motionblur of red's(though underwater so it shouldn't matter)

also you have access to the overcranking framerates, which you don't using 1080i, and you have access to the PN formats 720/24pn,30/pn....which will double recording time(again maybe not a concern)

i would stay progressive, and do a high quality uprez(lanczos filter)
after all, the HVX is barely 720 (960x540 sensor....and that's WITH pixel shifting)

Factually incorrect. The HVX processes everything at 1080p 60 FPS from the sensor, and then converts to its final format. So it can record 1080/60i, 1080/30p, 1080/24p (use the advanced mode and edit in FCP and you have true 24P on the timeline), as well as 720P in various frame rates and SD.

1080 progressive footage from the HVX is roughly 10% sharper than its 720; it's not an earth-shaking difference, but it's enough for me to always shoot 1080 with the HVX. Remember, the 720 also goes through a 1080 PROGRESSIVE stage in processing before being downconverted in-camera to 720.

720 30PN and 24PN do indeed give much longer recording times than 1080, as the 1080 is 100Mbps, while 30PN is 50 Mbps and 24PN is 40 Mbps. But if you're intercutting with the Red, I would definitely record in 1080 progressive. With two 32 GB cards on board, you get 70 minutes record time.

For over/undercranking with the HVX, then 720 is your only choice of course.

(edited once for grammar)

[Tom Lowe]

In my opinion, the HVX200 does not even hold up at 720p. I shot a ton of stuff on my old HVX and examined the frames very carefully.

I would try to shoot film or get a SONY EX1 wth a housing.

There are a lot of underwater guys here. Perhaps they could point you in the right direction.

[Álex Montoya]

HVX is hardly high def. It just heritages the prestige of the dvx100 but it's not a good cam.

[Tom Lowe]

The HVX is really somewhere between SD and 720p.

[Rudi Herbert]

HVX and RED will NEVER intercut seamlessly, especially underwater where you have so many problems with degradation (translate into pixelation, meaning noise) in the red channel and the endless layers of blue that pile up on top of each other if you're filming in open water and point the camera from surface to deep or viceversa. I've seen EX-1 underwater footage and it does look miles ahead of anything the HVX shoots on land, so I would go for that. But remember, if you have a RED, renting a housing from Aquavideo, or the few guys that own housings already should not be diificult. Look in on the Underwater forum in the groups.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I gotta agree about the HVX, I made some great images with it but the bloom came off the rose pretty quick. It needed a lot of light, operator ergonomics were poor and in the early days the P2 cards were way too small for a lot of projects.

Now, back to RED User :tongue:

IMHO you should really beat the bushes for RedOne underwater housings as the footage should be terrific and as long as you're down there you might be able to pick up some stock - just sayin'

[Joe G.]

Having seen some of the Red underwater footage, I would really put that option first if at all possible.

[Andrew Walker]

I just shot a video for this camp up in Washington last week, which is what my HVX is primarily used for now a days. So last week was the first time I've used it since I got my Red back in January and there is such a massive difference between the two cameras. When you go from using the EVF on the Red to the EVF on the HVX everything looks incredibly soft and is almost frustrating to use.

So what I'm trying to say, just like all the others in this post, is shoot with the Red if you can. It can produce amazing images in the right hands.

[Hrvoje Simic]

Dear all,

We have an upcoming RED shoot, and in the script is an underwater sequence. The sequence is short (~20 seconds), and the only underwater casing we can secure is for the HVX200.



Why don't you just contact Aqua ? He should have a casing for your RED.

[Michael Schrengohst]

We use the HVX for BTS on our RED shoots. Delivery for BTS is for client websites.
Usually no larger than 640x360. I would not attempt to cut HVX footage with the RED.

[Michael MK Siu]

Dear all,

Thanks for all the reply. Our initial decision with going with the HVX200 with the underwater scene is based on:

1. We have a HVX200 in hand, and we are getting the HVX200 underwater casing from a rental house for free.

2. We are reluctant to bring the our RED underwater unless using a professional casing, we are unable to secure any RED / large underwater housing for a cheap price (well, free is pretty hard to beat...)
(We did find a splash case, sort of like a big fish tank that "floats" on the service of the water, but for things that need to go under the water for a few scenes).

From reading everyone's comment, I think we will try to explore the idea of shooting with the Sony EX1 instead. Though I'm not so sure if we can get a casing in time. And we are based in Toronto, so if there are any one with any leads to a RED underwater (or EX1) casing, please do let me know.


Why don't you just contact Aqua ? He should have a casing for your RED.

Omen, I'm familiar with Gates housing, but don't know Aqua. (or is that a RED user's name?) Is there a website / contact you can point me to?

Thanks everyone again for their input.

Michael
---
[www.dvshortfilms.com]
[www.mksiu.com]

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

HVX is hardly high def. It just heritages the prestige of the dvx100 but it's not a good cam.

Is this a joke? The HVX200 is the best camera on the market under $10,000. It's an amazing camera, it looks fantastic for almost all applications except for really low ambient light. That shouldn't be a problem on most professional shoots, anyway. Almost everyone I know shoots with the HVX200 on reasonable budget work, where money is a concern.

First, the chip isn't 960 x 540 or whatever was written above, it's 960 x 720, obviously, it's 720p native footage. That's in its defense. But to the other guy, you have to be joking if you say HVX200 footage is 1080p. No, it isn't. It's 1080i, and it's natively 720p, which is where you should always be shooting. No good DP ever shoots in 1080i on that camera unless they just have no idea what they're doing and haven't ever used the camera before. I've worked with a ton of people, post on the DVX User forums, and everyone shoots 720pn, it just makes sense. It looks the best, allows you the most recording time, and the camera was made for that setting.

[Jacek Zakowicz]

"First, the chip isn't 960 x 540 or whatever was written above, it's 960 x 720, obviously, it's 720p native footage. "

Read the post by PANASONIC PRODUCT MANAGER FOR THE HVX200.
http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/193/871101
Can't get this link to work. Anyway It's 960x540 form the horse's mouth.

Jacek Zakowicz, OptiTek:weight_lift:

[Steve Sherrick]

"First, the chip isn't 960 x 540 or whatever was written above, it's 960 x 720, obviously, it's 720p native footage. "

Read the post by PANASONIC PRODUCT MANAGER FOR THE HVX200.
http://forums.http://www.teenink.com/Past/2002/January/CollegeEssays/IHateCows.html.net/thread/193/871101
Jacek Zakowicz, OptiTek:weight_lift:

Link is not working.

[Steve Sherrick]

Is this a joke? The HVX200 is the best camera on the market under $10,000. It's an amazing camera, it looks fantastic for almost all applications except for really low ambient light. That shouldn't be a problem on most professional shoots, anyway. Almost everyone I know shoots with the HVX200 on reasonable budget work, where money is a concern.

First, the chip isn't 960 x 540 or whatever was written above, it's 960 x 720, obviously, it's 720p native footage. That's in its defense. But to the other guy, you have to be joking if you say HVX200 footage is 1080p. No, it isn't. It's 1080i, and it's natively 720p, which is where you should always be shooting. No good DP ever shoots in 1080i on that camera unless they just have no idea what they're doing and haven't ever used the camera before. I've worked with a ton of people, post on the DVX User forums, and everyone shoots 720pn, it just makes sense. It looks the best, allows you the most recording time, and the camera was made for that setting.

No, it's not the best under $10,000 camera. That probably goes to the EX-1. The HVX200, in the hands of a talented shooter will look pretty good. But it's not an easy camera to shoot. Soft LCD, not so great in low light, noisy in a lot of modes. You can optimize the settings and get some good footage, no doubt, but let's call a spade a spade.

Good DPs shoot whatever format is necessary for the job at hand. If that's 1080i and that's a decision that was made by the powers that be, then the DP will get the most out of it that they can within reason. I do understand your point about 720P native allowing for the greatest record times, and I do happen to like that mode best on the camera.

[Charles Angus]

Is this a joke? The HVX200 is the best camera on the market under $10,000. It's an amazing camera, it looks fantastic for almost all applications except for really low ambient light. That shouldn't be a problem on most professional shoots, anyway. Almost everyone I know shoots with the HVX200 on reasonable budget work, where money is a concern.

First, the chip isn't 960 x 540 or whatever was written above, it's 960 x 720, obviously, it's 720p native footage. That's in its defense. But to the other guy, you have to be joking if you say HVX200 footage is 1080p. No, it isn't. It's 1080i, and it's natively 720p, which is where you should always be shooting. No good DP ever shoots in 1080i on that camera unless they just have no idea what they're doing and haven't ever used the camera before. I've worked with a ton of people, post on the DVX User forums, and everyone shoots 720pn, it just makes sense. It looks the best, allows you the most recording time, and the camera was made for that setting.


Vitriolic AND wrong, what a combo...

Chip is 960x540 16:9 progressive scan.

Camera is actually 1080 native - all footage is uprezzed/pixelshifted, then downrezzed as appropriate.

The camera can do 1080p.

1080p looks best, although it isn't much better than 720, it is better.




But back to the OP's question.

Ech, it's not ideal. Be ready for the HVX to look like crap. I shot (and did VFX) for a show shot on S16 transferred to HDCAM-SR. We had to go back and grab two plates on the HVX, and - holy shit - did they look bad when compared to the SR. Like, wow, bad.

To be fair, they had some hefty CC on them to match the other elements, but even straight off the camera they didn't match up. Noisy, soft, banding, etc.

The eternal words to the wise - shoot a test.

Even if the test is stupid, like shooting your friend in your living room with double CTB on the lens (or whatever) and comparing it to your RED footage.

The thing to do might be to run all the RED footage through DVCProHD 720p, then uprez to 1080p. Shoot 1080p on the HVX. This would come closer to matching, although you might still need to soften the RED footage before downrezzing.

I would do this process after VFX and CC, as a final step to match the RED to the HVX.

Again, test this procedure first!

Heresy to distress the 4k like this? Maybe, but if it's going to SD anyway... If it's for theatrical, then I don't know. Find money (basically what the "shoot RED underwater too" people are saying...).

[Colin Sheldon]

From reading everyone's comment, I think we will try to explore the idea of shooting with the Sony EX1 instead.

The EX1 has it's issues as well. Instead of improving on the HVX all sony did was trade problems. You get more resolution, but the long-GOP compression and shutter can be a real issue. Some people are complaining of compression issues even with slow pans or if there are lots of moving objects in the frame. Fast pans and the image turns to garbage.

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/142/858581
Sony EX1 Severe LongGop Problems : Sony CineAlta - XDCAM

Don't get me wrong, although the HVX-100B is a real improvement over the 100A they both have issues.... My main complaint is that Sony had 2 years to come out with a better camera... and instead released the EX-1. Thank goodness for RED. Scarlet can't come soon enough!

So for now, pick the camera that best fits your shoot.