Delsa Evolution

[Gabriel C.]

Man are they having a bad week. Check out what they've been working on and compare ...

http://www.freshdv.com/podpress_trac/web/890/0/nab07_dalsa_evolution.mov

Oops ... I misspelled Dalsa.

[PaulClements]

Did I hear him right, they reckon it weighs 26-28lbs? Compared to Red's body at 9lbs that seems quite heavy, perhaps he's talking about a loaded camera, in which case I suppose a loaded RedOne might be a little closer, but still I doubt that much. I was under the impression the camera was suppose to be significantly smaller and lighter than the origin2.

12-13 stops doesn't sound bad though - if that's true. Doesn't sound like it will deliver anything greater than RedOne unless they sell it for a similar price. Even then I think RedOne has quite a bit more going for it. What I don't understand is they have had the anticipated specs of RedOne for some time... Why not try to better it on every level? Afterall they're not shifting the camera yet. Seems a little lazy.

Man I really hate the "This is an evolution, it's not a revolution." that just makes Dalsa sound a bit daft. First off, trying to put down competitors with slogans is poor show, second it makes the camera sound rather dull, as if it's nothing too new.

[integr8d]

Dalsa rents. They don't sell... Regarding latitude, their chief tech, in Woodland Hills, says they claim 13 stops (14 if sacrificing a little color space)... 'Better' is subjective. Currently, there is no need to go past 4K resolution. 35mm film is scanned at 4K for the highest quality. I doubt that the human eye will see a difference between 4K, 5K, or 6K -a subjective statement at that! Motion picture has now reached the point that digital slr's did a few years back. Still, they continue to push resolution as the holy grail. I'd be perfectly happy w/ a 2K camera that gave me uncompressed footage and ISO800 that looked like 100. Regarding weight, less is fine. It's great for handheld. Too little is not so good. Makes for problems flying steadicam. Studio mode, it doesn't matter.

[PaulClements]

Regarding weight... Studio mode, it doesn't matter.

Although your choice of accessories such as tripods, heads, dollies etc might need to be the more expensive end of the market to accomodate the heavier payload, but essentially I agree.

The point about selling was because the price for renting a Dalsa compared to buying a Red makes the decision rather futile. If the two cameras side by side compare favourably then I cannot comprehend why anyone would pay more (Quite substaintially more I ought to add) for one over the other. Therefore for me I could only ever consider the Dalsa on it's merits if it shared a similar or at least equivilent pricetag.

[nobodySpecial]

35mm film is scanned at 4K for the highest quality. I doubt that the human eye will see a difference between 4K, 5K, or 6K -a subjective statement at that! Motion picture has now reached the point that digital slr's did a few years back.

Just a small point. You mentioned 35mm. With huge plasmas going into homes, theaters/movie companies are going to have to go bigger too. That means something like IMAX - 70mm projected on massive screens. Forgive me if my math is wrong, but that means the pixel race wont stop till at least 16k.

[PaulClements]

Just a small point. You mentioned 35mm. With huge plasmas going into homes, theaters/movie companies are going to have to go bigger too. That means something like IMAX - 70mm projected on massive screens. Forgive me if my math is wrong, but that means the pixel race wont stop till at least 16k.

Probably not, there is already evidence that the human eye cannot discern any major difference between SD and HD tv sets of certain sizes at certain distances.

Greater than 4k on a cinema screen from the distance you sit would also be discernable from standard 4k.

Furthermore, cinema is a social activity. The ammount of pixels on the screen won't dictate why people will stop going to the cinema.

[dalen johnson]

Motion picture has now reached the point that digital slr's did a few years back. Still, they continue to push resolution as the holy grail. I'd be perfectly happy w/ a 2K camera that gave me uncompressed footage and ISO800 that looked like 100. Regarding weight, less is fine. It's great for handheld. Too little is not so good. Makes for problems flying steadicam. Studio mode, it doesn't matter.


It is the holy grail...but that is my opinion. ;)

See, digital Slrs, which you mentioned, still arent good enough for me.
We have 35mm, but then medium format, and why you can argue that hasselblad, etc. are there, the majority are not...yet.

As for film, one of the other posters about Imax seems to be correct...16k will be where it will level out, if the math is correct...i wont even go there. lol

But 4k, not a bad start!

[dalen johnson]

Man I really hate the "This is an evolution, it's not a revolution." that just makes Dalsa sound a bit daft. First off, trying to put down competitors with slogans is poor show, second it makes the camera sound rather dull, as if it's nothing too new.

Well, I suppose its all a matter of perspective.
In some ways, to them it is an evolution - the product they are releasing...look at price, its rental, etc...nothing really 'new' from them from the ordinary.

Yes, I do know that its playing off of Red - but in that case it hurts them (Dalsa), if you take time to see how 'they' evoloved...point is not that the camera is bad (I personally hate the looks, but that doesnt mean it doesnt work well), but they have the same old business model and pricing structure...not going far with that.

The 'film' world is opened up, much like the design/print world did a few years back - where even grandpa has access to 'pro' tools.

yes, in the end, it (the end work) will be subjective to the end user if they want to buy grandpas work, but you never know...this opens the doors to the masses (pricing structures coming down, red is a lot closer than where it has been at...next step is red for the masses...or something else)

so all this rambling about what...oh evolution vs. revolution...they both contain each other so to speak (wont get more into philosophy), but in short...yes I dig the fact that tech is coming to the masses.

Those that have depended upon calling themselves 'film' guys based on the fact they had access to a big budget will need to watch their backs, and this is the main point they fear, as those with talent have access to stuff.

This gripes many Im sure, as true talent isnt really there...a lot of pure tech talent for complex machines to operate, but once it comes down to being simplified to the masses, they will have to adapt or move on. :)

Kind of like web design...yes getting a bit long and off track to speak, but it makes a point...Pure web designers consider themselves to be coders...hmmm, day is coming when this wont have to be so, and I think with CS3 is true to a certain extent. You will need back end, but to layout sites...that is a designers job to begin with...most sites suffer as they are programmers calling themselves designers. They will adapt and change or just adjust their titles...I know one person who this has already affected...

But anyhow...

Peace

[Ace]

Canon and Nikon digital SLRS have about 8 stops of dynamic range from what I read on DPreview.com. RED should have 45% more dynamic range than an 8stop digital SLR (assuming RED is outputting 11stops)

[GlennChan]

Red looks like it has the advantage in weight, lower noise and workflow.

The Dalsa camera is interesting in that it looks like they have more dynamic range than the Red; on the other hand, their highlights have color shifting which it doesn't seem like they're correcting for.

[David Mullen ASC]

The Dalsa cameras have a 16-bit processor (I think the RED has a 12-bit processor? not sure), which may partially account for the need for a larger body, and maybe they are trying to cram more functions into the camera for all I know. Plus of course it has a mechanical mirror shutter and optical viewfinder, which takes up room and adds weight.

The Dalsa Origin is an older design of course. And maybe they'll rethink the size of the Evolution now.

It's a rental-only camera like the Arri-D20 and Panavision cameras, so it's not really in the same market as a RED camera.

[Stephen Williams]

Canon and Nikon digital SLRS have about 8 stops of dynamic range from what I read on DPreview.com. RED should have 45% more dynamic range than an 8stop digital SLR (assuming RED is outputting 11stops)

Hi Acehole,

As stops are log and not linear Red has 400% more dynamic range than an 8 stop DSLR!

Stephen

[Jeremy Hughes]

I heard the Dalsa Origin and Evolution use a ~CCD~.

Tsk tsk tsk.

[Graeme Nattress]

David, we have 12bit A-to-D, but the processing goes on in higher precision to ensure accuracy. That said, when shooting RAW, you don't process in camera anyway. There should actually be a tonne more processing in RED as we do the multiple HD-SDI feeds, the graphs, histograms, waveforms, and processing for the EVF, and audio, which they don't.

As for the other questions on dynamic range - it all depends on how you measure it. We prefer the single shot stouffer test wedge test as there's little room for fudge factor with that. In the end, with digital, it all comes down to SNR.

Graeme

[Stephen Williams]

We prefer the single shot stouffer test wedge test as there's little room for fudge factor with that. In the end, with digital, it all comes down to SNR.

Graeme

Hi Graeme,

Could you post a frame.

Stephen

[Graeme Nattress]

I think we will have to get all the fine tuning done first, but we did post the graph from Frankie way back....

Graeme

[Stephen Williams]

I think we will have to get all the fine tuning done first, but we did post the graph from Frankie way back....

Graeme

Hi Graeme,

I saw the graph the day you published it, been hoping to see the actual frame!

Stephen

[LighthouseMEdia]

That is the weight of the actual body guys that thing is not small, rule handheld out in any way LOL!!! This was in interesting interview ;) Especially as a Red Holder.