RED Recording Options: Real-world Performance/dropped frames/speed and reliability

[hasaanchop]

Good morning,

I was hoping some of the more experienced Red One users on this forum could give me the lowdown on real world performance of the different recording media formats available for the RED One system.

I have now heard from varying sources that the SATA 2.5" hard drive RAID (RED Drive) can be very touchy, and is prone to dropping frames, even while going slow with the camera. Being both a perfectionist AND having a very technical mode of operating, this is just flat out unacceptable, especially if I ever consider renting myself and my RED One out (when I get my first one of course :biggrin: ). I would hate to preview footage for a client and discover this had happened.

Second, the RED site's description of the Compact Flash read/write Module saysit is a "defacto standard of recording on the RED One". A quick search on the internet comes up with a number of reviews that say there are no CF cards out there that live up to the read/write speeds necessary for perfectly recorded footage.

That's two out of the three formats down, not reassuring.

It would therefore be logical to assume the only choice left is the expensive, SSD (Solid State Drive) RED Flash Drive. How are DP's finding that this drive is holding up under real shooting conditions? Is it a solid performer or does it also have times where one can expect dropped frames? Does it perform at the level commensurate with its price?

Additionally, no one seems to want or be able to answer a question that I have posted on the forum for a few weeks now - Will I be able to upgrade/mod my RED Flash Drive with other ultra high performance/greatly increased capacity SSD drives, or am I going to run into a proprietary interface and be locked into buying only RED gear, for the rest of the camera's lifetime?

I don't know about most other users here, but I have built my own computers for going on three decades now, run DD-WRT on my wireless routers, have hacked/modded my AppleTV, calibrate (including geometry and convergence) my CRT RPTV and LCDs, and so on. Being locked out of a new camera this cool would be a major bummer, especially when it comes to upping the available recording time on my drives.

BTW, I cannot find a single spec on RED's site for the minimum read/write speeds necessary for different resolutions. All the marketing pitch mentions is: "Due to the tremendous amount of data being written to these cards, it is only the very highest speed cards that can handle the data stream."

OK, that tells me absolutely nothing. I would hope that RED assumes that most of its end-users are going to be very computer savvy and have loads of technical experience, and would be interested in such information. They're called "specifications."

I also couldn't find any manuals to download for ANY of their equipment, except for the camera itself, which also does not have any technical data on the CF, Flash or SATA recording formats, except for average recording times at defined resolutions.

THANKS, THANKS, THANKS!! for anyone that can help me. I am looking forward very much to my first RED One, but need to know that I will be set up for success by getting some important information on the systems first.

BTW, I am an original movie poster broker, deal with vintage titles going back to the 40's and 50's, and specialize in Japanese vintage material.

Steve Zammar
owner, ds|onesheets
dsonesheets@gmail.com
(303) 478-3973

[John Leahy]

I would agree that a table for the CF cards would be a very valuable reference.

It would be nice to see a simple table with the different codecs, frame rates and resolution laid out and whether the CF cards can record or not.

[sander kamp]

Second, the RED site's description of the Compact Flash read/write Module saysit is a "defacto standard of recording on the RED One". A quick search on the internet comes up with a number of reviews that say there are no CF cards out there that live up to the read/write speeds necessary for perfectly recorded footage.

That's two out of the three formats down, not reassuring.

The RED CF cards are very reliable and predictable. They might drop some frames when shooting high speed but in normal shooting they never do. The RED raid drives are good for working on tripods, dollies, cranes and whatever, they just need some care when in a bumpy environment.

[David Wyatt]

Second, the RED site's description of the Compact Flash read/write Module saysit is a "defacto standard of recording on the RED One". A quick search on the internet comes up with a number of reviews that say there are no CF cards out there that live up to the read/write speeds necessary for perfectly recorded footage.

That's two out of the three formats down, not reassuring.


Not sure what you mean here, what do you mean by "perfectly recorded footage" and why do you discount Red's Compact Flash cards without any experience of them? Personally I've never had a problem with them (especially on Release Builds and especially if you keep within the necessary frame rates and resolution limits for CF cards). Red basically test & certify a particular make of Compact Flash card for use with their camera that can achieve at least, for example, Redcode 28 at 4K 16:9 etc. Red's new 16GB Compact Flash cards on the other hand have been custom-built for their requirements by a 3rd party - and according to them they're the fastest cards on the market (450x write speed, 600x read speed - a full 16GB card was clocked backing up in 2 minutes 34 seconds!). With the 16GB cards you'll be able to achieve higher frame rates than with the 8GB cards - there's a run down of a field test in terms of frame rates and resolutions with them here:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16522&highlight=16GB

I certainly wouldn't discount them out of hand. If you're after absolute reliability then the Red Drives aren't for you but you seem very tech-savvy so you'll know hard drives aren't that reliable in any field. Alternatively the Red Flash Drives are out in the field being tested as we speak and I think they're pretty close to releasing them (no word on performance obviously until they're actually released - I think you may be under the misapprehension that they're already available?)

In terms of dropped frames the great thing about the Red camera is that it tells you when it happens as opposed to finding out about it later in post like with tape cameras (there's a readout on the Red LCD & EVF that tells you exactly how many frames are dropped). Personally I've never experienced a dropped frame (even shooting boxing scenes handheld with the Red Drive) but some people have (especially with non-Red CF cards or with the Red Drive). There can also be other reasons for dropped frames that Red Users have speculated about like sonic phenomena (mostly on the Red Drive and incidentally not just on the Red camera but others too): http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15851&highlight=dropped+frames

If you're really worried about dropped frames on the Red Drive then there are encouraging reports about this piece of kit for removing bumps and vibrations that can disrupt any kind of hard drive:

http://redmodz.com/support/38-element-technica/95-element-technica-shock-isolated-drive-mount

I imagine (if you don't have a reservation number) that by the time you get your camera the Red Flash Drive will definitely be out so just get a couple of those if can afford it (reliability comes at a price!), or if not stick with the 16GB CF cards (gives you roughly 10 - 11 minutes of 4K footage).

[James Brundige]

I use the Red Raid extensively. I have never had a dropped frame.

I use the CF cards for hand held and backpack locations. Never a dropped frame.

I usually work on sticks, not too much camera movement.

[Matthew Rogers]

I have now heard from varying sources that the SATA 2.5" hard drive RAID (RED Drive) can be very touchy, and is prone to dropping frames, even while going slow with the camera. Being both a perfectionist AND having a very technical mode of operating, this is just flat out unacceptable, especially if I ever consider renting myself and my RED One out (when I get my first one of course :biggrin: ). I would hate to preview footage for a client and discover this had happened.

On my last shoot I had the RED Drive up on my jib mounted to the back of my truck shooting kids riding down the street on their bikes. No dropped frames. That said, it really depends on what you are shooting. I've never been able to get dropped frames on my drive but others have.



Second, the RED site's description of the Compact Flash read/write Module saysit is a "defacto standard of recording on the RED One". A quick search on the internet comes up with a number of reviews that say there are no CF cards out there that live up to the read/write speeds necessary for perfectly recorded footage.

Uhhh...the RED 8 & 16 GB cards record just fine...even the lexar 300x 8GB cards (which is what I have) work great. I don't know why you would say CF is out of the picture. CHEAP CF cards are out of the picture, true...


It would therefore be logical to assume the only choice left is the expensive, SSD (Solid State Drive) RED Flash Drive. How are DP's finding that this drive is holding up under real shooting conditions? Is it a solid performer or does it also have times where one can expect dropped frames? Does it perform at the level commensurate with its price?

Do a little research first, the RED Flash Drive has not been shipped yet.


Additionally, no one seems to want or be able to answer a question that I have posted on the forum for a few weeks now - Will I be able to upgrade/mod my RED Flash Drive with other ultra high performance/greatly increased capacity SSD drives, or am I going to run into a proprietary interface and be locked into buying only RED gear, for the rest of the camera's lifetime?

I don't think you'll be able to put in other drives. It seems even with the RED Drive, RED is tuning the firmwire for the RAID to max out drive performance and therefore it is locked. It's the same way with pretty much any other high end camera like the Genesis or Dalsa. They've got their systems locked (and for good reason). That may change with the SDK being released but I'm not sure.


I don't know about most other users here, but I have built my own computers for going on three decades now, run DD-WRT on my wireless routers, have hacked/modded my AppleTV, calibrate (including geometry and convergence) my CRT RPTV and LCDs, and so on. Being locked out of a new camera this cool would be a major bummer, especially when it comes to upping the available recording time on my drives.

That's great, but those are also consumer devices. I'd hate to get out on a shoot and have my camera fail on me because I was hacking it outside of manufacture specs.


BTW, I cannot find a single spec on RED's site for the minimum read/write speeds necessary for different resolutions. All the marketing pitch mentions is: "Due to the tremendous amount of data being written to these cards, it is only the very highest speed cards that can handle the data stream."

That's because REDCODE is a VBR codec and depending on what you are shooting depends on the bit rate. 25 MB's a second I believe is the min for 4k.


OK, that tells me absolutely nothing. I would hope that RED assumes that most of its end-users are going to be very computer savvy and have loads of technical experience, and would be interested in such information. They're called "specifications."

I also couldn't find any manuals to download for ANY of their equipment, except for the camera itself, which also does not have any technical data on the CF, Flash or SATA recording formats, except for average recording times at defined resolutions.

I don't what there would be a manual for other than the camera. It covers my camera, LCD, EVF, RED Drive, and CF Cards. Everything else are parts of the production pack that doesn't need a manual.

I would suggest that you do alot more searching here on RedUser. Try using google search instead of the search on here as you will get better results (try using this "search term here site:reduser.net")

Matthew

[gbalaji]

Hasaanchop,

I would suggest you to read the post by Mike Curtis of Hdforindies.com here - http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/mcurtis/story/red_one_geekery_real_world_info_on_redcode/

[Rob Powell]

In preparation for some Steadicam & crane shots next week, we did some informal tests carrying the camera by the handle and walking "briskly" doing whip pans, etc. Using both the Red Drive and CF cards, we had no dropped frames or codec errors.

The only codec error we've had was on a tripod shooting a CU shot of a tire of a NASCAR race car as it peeled out. Must have been related to the sound vibrations. I read of someone else getting a similar error shooting a car chase in a parking garage.

R. Powell

[J. Eric Camp]

Drives are fine and the camera tells you when you have dropped frames so you don't have to wait for playback to find out. Yes REDCODE is a variable bit rate codec so there are no consistent write speeds. The complexity of the frame will determine it's file size. The only specs they could release would be a low end and maybe a high end. However the high end is extremely variable.

Drives: I am not sure what people are doing to get dropped frames siting on a tripod. (maybe extremely complex frames at high speed.) Movement wise, it requires SERIOUS vibration to make it drop a frame.

8gb CF cards are solid except in high frame rate complex subjects.

16gb CF's are fantastic.

Red Ram is a rock star. Sell a kidney and get in line.

[hasaanchop]

I appreciate all the feedback here. Very, very encouraging. I am glad to hear back from people who actually work with the camera rather than articles that seem obviously very distant from real world function.

It makes me even more anxious to get my camera. I'm very reassured. Also, thanks for some of the links provided here. I've learned a lot in a very short time.

[Ed Watkins]

I use drives for everything. The only time I have had drop frame issues was when I was shooting shoulder mounted in a helicopter, standing on the rails, and the camera touched the helicopter body.

I pretty much never have dropped frames from hand held otherwise.