realtime NLE for RED

[najafi/didarfilm]

hi all ,

who knows which configurations and which software could do a realtime editing on 4k RED data's?

i think a Dual Quadcore Xeon system with 2 Quadro 5500 in SLI system on a SUSE Linux 64bit could answer the hardware requirements but i don't know which software could afford the 4k data even in near future.

Surely we could not think about Inferno or Smoke , Flame , ... from discreet or equivelant systems by Quantel , becouse of the cost.

najafi

[Rob Lohman]

It's too early to talk about that since we are still finishing up the software and are not done with all the optimizations yet (so no hard numbers are available).

I don't see why you would need an expensive Quadro 500 let alone two. Unless your Smoke/Inferno/Flame need that. REDCINE certainly doesn't.

The most horse power needed comes when you need to process 4K footage. Either in REDCINE or through the REDCODE codec. An option is to load the footage into REDCINE, output something at HD resolution (DVCPROHD?) and edit with that.

Especially if you're output is going to be DVHS/HD DVD/Blu-Ray/Web that sounds like a good way to go. Then you'll always have your 4K "digital cinema negative" if the film is bought and is being outputted to film or digital projected at 2K/4K.

You can output DPX/Cineon/TIFF from REDCINE. Any high-end system like the ones you mention will be able to load that up.

[Christian Berg]

When you say finishing up software do you mean Redcine? Is the REDCODE codec development completed?

[Sanjin Jukic]

The RED ONE™ a high performance digital cine camera with the quality of 35mm film and convenience of pure digital AND is still in development process.

There is a CURTAIN between us or the reservation holders, future users and the RED ONE™ development team which is working in its development labs.

Also there is a STAGE like this or the REDUSER forum. We are sitting in the audience and the RED ONE™ development team is performing on the stage.

Director of this performance is Jim Jannard.

The stage assistants are the forum leader (Jarred Land), the forum coordinators and some members of the RED ONE™ development team.

In this forum we are AUDIENCE invited to see and talk about some OPEN experimental phases of the rehearsal/development process. But not about all the things. There are some hidden things and they are called IN HOUSE secrets.

So do not expect to see and to know what is exactly going on behind this CURTAIN.

Some questions are going to be or it will stay without answers. This is called a SILENCE.

And you will never see what is actually going on in the RED ONE™ development labs.

The best is to not ask the questions that will always remain without answers.

It is not making sense in this PLAY.

[Anders Holck]

Is RED also working on Redcode RGB as an intermediate codec, like Cineform, or are you mainly concentrating on delivering a camera codec to compliment Redcode RAW

[Rob Lohman]

Yes, the post output codec will be REDCODE RGB. Everything (as always) is "in development" at RED, including software. It will be in development (and testing) till it "ships" at which point we'll continue with software updates.

[Nick Shaw]

Do you plan to distribute Beta versions of REDCINE and the codecs to reservation holders prior to shipping?

[Martin Drew]

Good idea Nick. That would seem to fit in with the Red development ethic.

Martin

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Do you plan to distribute Beta versions of REDCINE and the codecs to reservation holders prior to shipping?

That would be super duper useful. Even limited demo forms of the software with some sample footage would be great. If for no other reason for us all to figure out what we need and/or what we're doing so when our # comes up, we'll be ready to rock.

[Sanjin Jukic]

That would be super duper useful. Even limited demo forms of the software with some sample footage would be great. If for no other reason for us all to figure out what we need and/or what we're doing so when our # comes up, we'll be ready to rock.

As I mentioned before that some questions are going to be or it will stay without answers. This is called a SILENCE.

That means no any kind of OPEN BETA REDCINE or REDCODE software soon for the reservation holders.

[beatniq]

It's too early to talk about that since we are still finishing up the software and are not done with all the optimizations yet (so no hard numbers are available).

I don't see why you would need an expensive Quadro 500 let alone two. Unless your Smoke/Inferno/Flame need that. REDCINE certainly doesn't.

The most horse power needed comes when you need to process 4K footage. Either in REDCINE or through the REDCODE codec. An option is to load the footage into REDCINE, output something at HD resolution (DVCPROHD?) and edit with that.

Especially if you're output is going to be DVHS/HD DVD/Blu-Ray/Web that sounds like a good way to go. Then you'll always have your 4K "digital cinema negative" if the film is bought and is being outputted to film or digital projected at 2K/4K.

You can output DPX/Cineon/TIFF from REDCINE. Any high-end system like the ones you mention will be able to load that up.

Hey Rob. This seems to be the most accepted workflow for RED so far, but I am just curious - this is probably a stupid question but every time it is brought up no one ever discusses where the original footage actually resides. Everyone just says, "REDCINE it as DVCPRO-HD and you'll always have the 'negative,'" but I'm just a little hazy on what actual physcial form the "negative" takes? Is it a hard drive? Because it can't be flash memory. If it were flash memory (I'm guessing something along the lines of RED's version of P2), we'd all be acquiring content and then dumping it off to a more permanent solution right away again and again - as is the sad, sad fate of the poor, nomadic memory cell... but I digress.

So I have to think it's a hard drive. I'm assuming the idea is to shoot REDCODE RAW onto a hard drive and purchase a new one every time it becomes "fully exposed?"

[Chris Kenny]

Everyone just says, "REDCINE it as DVCPRO-HD and you'll always have the 'negative,'" but I'm just a little hazy on what actual physcial form the "negative" takes? Is it a hard drive?


It's a bunch of data files. Store them on whatever media you find most convenient.



So I have to think it's a hard drive. I'm assuming the idea is to shoot REDCODE RAW onto a hard drive and purchase a new one every time it becomes "fully exposed?"


You could do this, but regular hard drives and/or data tapes are a lot cheaper than Red's drive or flash based "digital magazines", so it would be a bit silly not to copy data over to regular drives and reuse the mags.

[beatniq]

It's a bunch of data files. Store them on whatever media you find most convenient.



You could do this, but regular hard drives and/or data tapes are a lot cheaper than Red's drive or flash based "digital magazines", so it would be a bit silly not to copy data over to regular drives and reuse the mags.

Gotcha. So we shoot to RED's drive, dump to a regular HD which will serve as the archive, REDCINE to a scratch drive as DVCPRO-HD and edit off that?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

While we're on the subject... Why would we even want to bring RED footage over to DVCPROHD??? Would it not make more sense to go to HDCAM SR/SX or one of those? DVCPROHD by spec is limited to 960x720p60 for 720p and stretched to fit the 16:9 1280x720 frame; 1280x1080i60 for 1080i and stretched to fill the 16:9 frame. I work with DVCPROHD all the time with my HVX200 and rental Varicam systems on occasion. It's a way to work, but not a way I would choose if I can get away from it.

For simply cutting / editing footage, DVCPROHD isn't bad as a proxy format to relate to offline 2K/4K. But when it comes to integrating with motion graphics, CG elements, etc... It sucks. The 4:2:2 colorspace is handy, but the pixel stretch is aggravating. At least more so than the 1440x1080 HDCAM variants and there are other formats that are true 1280x720 and 1920x1080 that can be edited in just fine.

Somewhere in one of these threads, someone mentioned using REDCINE to go out to DVCPROHD for editing and conversion to HD-DVD content. WTH???

[Chris Gearhart]

. . . the pixel stretch is aggravating.

Drifting off topic here, but I didn't think the pixel stretching was a hard, native codec attribute, but one based on the smaller camera sensors that use the codec.

[Nick Shaw]

DVCPro HD 'PAL' is 1440x1080 at 25 fps. Still not full raster though. But a pretty good 'offline' codec.

Nick

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Drifting off topic here, but I didn't think the pixel stretching was a hard, native codec attribute, but one based on the smaller camera sensors that use the codec.

Yep, the DVCPROHD format isn't full 1280x720 or 1920x1080 raster size. Works OK for a proxy to offline edit with or if you will be delivering a DVCPROHD tape to a broadcaster or something. Other than that, not an ideal format to work in. Doing any combining with CG elements or serious keying, a full raster format is much more desirable. For the DVCPROHD I shoot with the HVX, we convert it to full raster and often just convert to uncompressed and then re-encode for delivery. Our animation is always uncompressed and output as frame sequences, occasionally encapsulated in QT or AVI in uncompressed or lossless codecs. Not a big deal... Yes, it involves more drive space during the edit, but aside from the offline edit by proxy, or the specific need to deliver DVCPROHD as a final format, I can't fathom why anyone would recommend it. :confused:

...And Nick is right, the PAL version is 1440x1080 vs. the NTSC 1280x1080, but I guess that's the advantage of going to 25i/50p. I don't recall if the PAL 720p format has a higher horizontal density or not.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

It sure would nice to have a full raster 1080 x 1920 option besides uncompressed, which is a hog for space and drops frames even on fast rigs. Is RedCode RGB (not RAW) an option or is that fully uncompressed? Any posties out there doing internal file management of jobs using something that is full raster mildly compressed?

I use DVCPRO-HD quite a bit and for a lot of jobs the 4:2:2 color space is not a problem, but as mentioned the non-square pixels are a headache.

Am I missing something? Is there some HDCAM-SR preset in FCP I don't know about? Will the wavelet codecs offer a proxy we can use in editorial?

[Chris Gearhart]

It sure would nice to have a full raster 1080 x 1920 option besides uncompressed.

And how.


Thanks, appliedvisual. It never hit home to me that that was the case no matter what camera the data was sampled in, but it makes sense now. *palm to forehead whack*

[Poi Boy]

I remember JJ saying at some point during this wild ride that we would get a chance to play with the software before the camera ships. I hope that is still the case.
Aloha
-A

[Chris Kenny]

It sure would nice to have a full raster 1080 x 1920 option besides uncompressed, which is a hog for space and drops frames even on fast rigs. Is RedCode RGB (not RAW) an option or is that fully uncompressed?


Red has said there will be QuickTime components for Redcode (both RGB and RAW). See here: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=759744&postcount=5

This means you can edit Redcode directly in Final Cut Pro.

However, odds are you shouldn't expect real-time anything. The current version of FCP can't do real-time except with codecs Apple has added explicit support for. Of course it's always possible Apple will take an interest in Redcode, or FCP will be updated to eliminate this limitation. (It doesn't exist in the more modern Final Cut Studio apps like Motion.)

Also, keep in mind that nobody outside of Red has any idea what sort of processor requirements might be required to play back Redcode footage in real-time in QuickTime apps. Possibly this isn't even known inside Red, as development is ongoing.

[Rob Lohman]

DVCPROHD was just an example. Export to another QuickTime codec if that works better for you.

[Jason Rodriguez]

It sure would nice to have a full raster 1080 x 1920 option besides uncompressed

CineForm RAW and CineForm's CFHD format are both coming to FCP and quicktime . . . even if you don't want to use the RAW file approach of CineForm, there's always the option for using their real-time YUV wavelet codec, and that is full-raster.

Also, does DNxHD work inside of Final Cut?

And then there's the excellent SheerVideo codecs that are very fast and give you a little over 2:1 lossless compression (which would work for HD/2K editing with a modest drive array).

Finally, check out PhotoJPEG . . . it's fast, has good generation-to-generation encoding/decoding stamina, and it's full-raster 4:2:2.

[Jason Ramsey]

Of any of the current NLE's, the only one that I would expect to support RED and be able to edit it in realtime (system allowing) would be EDIUS. Format compatibility and realtime editing are the two things the EDIUS has going for them, and the reason I went with them when I purchased my HVX's

Jason