RED vs. 16 mm

[gwertheim]

I am currently a film student in Toronto, Canada. I am preparing to shoot my final project and I am trying to decide which camera to use 16 mm (school pays for film, processing, color correction, etc.) or RED.

What do you think??

[Adam Clark]

if they are paying for film and not for red - i would do the film. there will be plenty of other opportunities in your professional life to shovel out cash.

[Mark Toia]

I am currently a film student in Toronto, Canada. I am preparing to shoot my final project and I am trying to decide which camera to use 16 mm (school pays for film, processing, color correction, etc.) or RED.

What do you think??


Your on a RED forum mate.

RED is the answer.
16 mm is so old, small gate, expensive film and TC and online process.
RED has full 35mm gate size, no film, no processing and you can edit, grade and online in your laptop.

Ask yourself the question again.

enjoy the future

[Matthew Rogers]

Personally, I would shot film (as much as I love my RED and the beautiful images it produces). It will be far easier in the future to shoot on digital cameras like the RED, but it will be harder to get jobs on film. Since the school is paying for all the film costs, it really makes no difference as far as money goes, correct? Here's a question to ask yourself, do the advantages of the RED (35mm DOF, HD monitor, HD playback, etc) help you tell your story better?

Matthew

[Dylan Reeve]

Shoot 16mm. Worth it for the experience.

Chances are the school has a good setup for dealing with a film-based workflow, the same is unlikely to be true of a RED-based workflow (especially given the ever-changing nature of it).

[donatello b]

i'm editing a 16mm short that was shot before RED ...
well, after shooting Red 4k for past serveal months i have to say the 16mm images ( 2k scans) are lacking compared to 4k = not in same ball park ... hate it - i want the smooth skin tones ... i'm almost to the point that i'm considering reshooting it on Red ...
if you want 35mm smooth images go Red .. if you want a image with grain go 16mm ... it comes down to your project ..

[Charles Angus]

I love 16mm. S16 transferred to HDCAM SR is beautiful. If it's free, go 16. It can look great. But don't go to SD - go to at least HDCAM, SR if you can. It's worth it.

[Nick Gardner]

You will learn ten times more shooting film.

Peace,

Nick

[Snow R. Shai]

Hi
Good points here by everybody.
You should also consider this:

5-10 years from now, in a digital cinema world, film jobs will be harder to find. would it be cool if you had film experience already ?
It is very important, in my view, to have a hold on film history, and the ways it worked.
Even if we don't use it anymore...
The fact that you really know how it worked in the past, makes you a better artist, with broader views and lets you appreciate more the tools of today.

Would you ask yourself in the future "Oh, i wish i worked with film" ?
Any filmaker should have this experience if he can.

[gwertheim]

It's not that i haven't worked on film before. Looking to the future, I think working with RED would look better on a resume, but some of my teachers think film would look better.

It's a constant battle between the two formats for me.

[Craig Bowman]

Don't get biased to only one medium. When someone else is picking up the tab, shoot in whatever format there paying for.

[Matthew Rogers]

It's not that i haven't worked on film before. Looking to the future, I think working with RED would look better on a resume, but some of my teachers think film would look better.

It's a constant battle between the two formats for me.

The thing is, if you can shoot film, you can shoot RED easily. However, it's not the other way around. I can shoot beautiful stuff on my RED, but I doubt I would do as well on 35mm film as I am too used to seeing exactly what I am getting on a HD monitor, looking at the waveform on the RED, etc. I can't AC on alot of shoots around here because I am not experienced with film (of course that's changing as more and more shoots are shooting digital--especially on the RED.)

Matthew

[Zakaree Sandberg]

shoot 16

[donatello b]

are you the Director or DP or both ...

[gwertheim]

I am the director and I am funding the project so I get the final say

[Patrick Tresch]

What does the project need?
What does the DP ask for?
What is the final product? (festivals, DVD, 70mm print?)
What postproduction scheme did you think of?
With whom will "you" speak at the lab/posthouse?

Don't be impressed by NEW technology!

Vision3 is also NEW but the DP know what he gets on the release print! With a DI (and there are different ways of doing it (crimson/FCP/Scratch/Lustre.../R3D/DPX/2k/4K...) you have to make tests as it IS a NEW technology. Can you afford it? Or are you enough corageous to support a possible failure?

If you shoot RED then test the WHOLE post solution.

Have a nice shooting.

Patrick

[gwertheim]

What does the project need?
It is my decision
What does the DP ask for?
He is not picky
What is the final product? (festivals, DVD, 70mm print?)
Either MiniDV, DVD, hard drive. Not sure yet
What postproduction scheme did you think of?
Huh???
With whom will "you" speak at the lab/posthouse?
Hell if i know, the school will take care of it

[Patrick Tresch]

What does the project need?
It is my decision
What does the DP ask for?
He is not picky
What is the final product? (festivals, DVD, 70mm print?)
Either MiniDV, DVD, hard drive. Not sure yet
What postproduction scheme did you think of?
Huh???
With whom will "you" speak at the lab/posthouse?
Hell if i know, the school will take care of it

With all respect, I think you don't need RED... Because you don't need this specific technology.

Put your money in good acting and rehearsal.

Patrick

[gwertheim]

With all respect, I think you don't need RED... Because you don't need this specific technology.

Put your money in good acting and rehearsal.

Patrick

I know I don't need a red, but on a student project where you have to trust your fellow students to load the mags properly, light the set well and documnent everything, i'd rather use RED because if I need to reshoot something I will know after I transfer the footage to my hard drive, not 2 weeks later.

[Jay Drose]

With all these newer digital formats it will now always be a question of final output. It can be tough (my final thesis was shot in HD and it couldn't even be projected in HD because I couldn't afford a digital transfer to HDCAM or HDCAM SR)

Since it's for school, will you have a final screening with classmates and/or professor. If so, can you screen your 16mm even if it's transfered to a digital format?

Or, is it more important for your reel after you leave school? Then you can show down-compressed RED footage easily and won't have to deal with all the printing 16mm can require.

What will you learn most from? 16mm by far. It's not as antiquated as people make it out to be. Especially as a student film project, where most films are experiments, film will teach you so much more about the process itself.

[Dylan Reeve]

i'd rather use RED because if I need to reshoot something I will know after I transfer the footage to my hard drive, not 2 weeks later.

That is not a great approach really. While it's technically possible, you do need to learn to have trust in what you shoot without having to review everything.

Also think about the logistics of RED at your school? Are any of the staff/tutors really aware of RED workflow? Can they help? Will you even be able to install necessary RED tools on the edit suites?

They know 16mm. They can help and have what's needed to make it work.

Shooting on film instills good practice that can and should be applied when shooting on other formats.

[gwertheim]

I have profs that have used RED. I am not worried about that. I am more worried about my team when it comes to checking the gate, lighting and studio disapline. I might have to call in some favors to make this work.

[Giancarlo Bianchi]

I have profs that have used RED. I am not worried about that. I am more worried about my team when it comes to checking the gate, lighting and studio disapline. I might have to call in some favors to make this work.

Dude, Team play is what this is all about.... :matrix:

[gwertheim]

I know that it is one of the most important things on set, but others i will have to trust have never been on an active set before

[Patrick Tresch]

You will have to trust your DP and your Focus puller and your Data wrangler and your Hard Drives and your post production facillity/or master monitor and so on...

You will have to be much more picky with RED than with 16mm (don't forget our grand dad did shoot on 16mm with bollex and the pictures where and still are great) to do it properly on RED you will have to have goooood professionals.

Put your thoughts on selecting your team first and then choose the right medium.

Patrick

PS: As technology can change every day, teaming up a great crew is a time life "benefit"

[gwertheim]

As technology can change every day, teaming up a great crew is a time life "benefit"


Didn't think about it that way.

Thanks for the tip

[Ben Goldenberg]

Hey man, I just sent you a pm, but I have a red for rent to students in Toronto. I would be more than happy to show you the camera and how it works to help you decide.
Let me know.
redshorts@rocketmail.com
ben.

[Alex Fostvedt]

Shoot film now if you can, because you will not be shooting film in the future.

[Gunleik Groven]

I'd have shot 16mm.
REDs are plentyfull, and you won't have the option of choice in a quite near future.

NOT implying "film is dead", just that it will become harder to get budgets for film.

Gunleik

[thx-1138]

!6mm... choice of film stocks, grain structure and latitude.

RED... clean images, easy workflow and instant fedback without the need for a Tap and VTR.

Most importantly what does the story call for... what medium is best for that story.

[spitfire44]

if the story doesn't dictate the medium then shoot film.....RED will be around for quite a long time, film on the other hand will become less of an option and it is great opportunity to experience while you have the chance.

I am a bit curious as to your past experience. have you shot film before? what type of digital/HD have you shot?

there have been a few posts that say some misleading things...such as the RED easy workflow, etc.....if you have time and experience it is "easier" than before, but saying RED is easier than film is not completely true....it is different, that is all is it...

I think the film workflow is also easy, although different.....

Does your DP have film experience? you said he's not picky but I have to admit that might also mean he is not as learned in the ways of film vs. digital acquisition.


BTW...on my website you can see my latest RED ONE spot....NIKE "HERE I AM" I have two more in post production now.

good luck,

Eric

[Patrick Kaplin]

Shoot 16mm. Especially if the school is picking up the tab. Just make sure you get a transfer to at least HDCAM SR. No point in degrading the quality by going SD.

There will be plenty of digital later. Part of shooting film is trusting that what you have is good, and the excitement of not knowing exactly what you got. It's like x-mas when that film comes back from the lab. You're in school now, they're paying the fees... you can mess up now with your film without too much consequence. Use this 16mm shoot as a learning experience. My $.02 ;-)

[hunterrichards]

Why do people think film is going away?

[ethereal]

no i think they mean film's becoming more expensive. studios might not want to bother with film after a while purely because of the cost.

[hunterrichards]

Really?

My understanding is that at the studio level, digital can be more expensive than film or at least the same price. Film costs are a small in comparison to numerous other costs on a studio film.

I could produce 30: spots shot on 35mm film cheaper than to do it "the right way" with the RED or similar, digitally. Then of course every project is different and I could see film costs being burdensome if you needed many hours of footage- like on an indie feature or doc.

Anyways, If It were me in film school- I would shoot a project on film!

[Stephen Williams]

I could produce 30: spots shot on 35mm film cheaper than to do it "the right way" with the RED or similar, digitally. !

Hi,

That is often my experiance too. Film Processing & telecine grading grading can be quicker than converting files too

Stephen

[JanneJansson]

use 16mm

[Tim Hole]

I think working with a crew you can trust is a good start. I remember what it was like being a student though. In retrospect it wasn't my crews that were a problem it was my lack of faith in the people I was working with. I can understand where you are coming from. Although don't underestimate the shooting on the RED, especially the post workflow.

I was speaking to Tony Breakspear from Kodak a while back, talking about 16mm. He was quick to make the argument that although there might be more upfront costs of shooting on film, the post expense makes it equally expensive in the long run. But hey he works for Kodak! Guess where his bias lies. He brought up RED several times in the conversation, he wasn't ushered into which I quite liked.

[Larry Gebhardt]

Here's my take on it...and this is coming from a guy with a bunch of 16 and 35mm gear sitting in an equipment room and wondering what it is going to be worth in the not too distant future...when digital finally has the post thing figured out...(I know it is already figured out...but a lot of the producers of the world don't think so...and sometimes you don't have the time to educate them)

Go for the RED. I think it is the future, whether RED or (gad!..sorry about this...) someone else...just like the digital still world...people still shoot film for it's "Better" image, but they are a very few.

Do you want to shoot a future statement or shoot a history lesson...sorry, that is harsh but I think that film, though still superior to digital in many ways, is really loosing momenturm in our industry...and looking at what you may want to do in your future...via a resume ...I think that learning the new math may open doors more than film as an entry medium.

Yes, learning the fundamentals (of cinematography) via film would be a real learning experience...days later. Immediate feedback of the images is also a real learning experience...I just had my first lesson last week with my newly arrived RED One.

It's a tough question and probably one that goes to the very fundamental heart of this site. Others have very good arguments for film...and I applaud them as I would hope that film hangs around for a while...I personally love the medium...my reel is 99.44% film. There is stuff that you can image on film that will be a long time coming in digital...but we all have to pay attention to the momentum of the industry that pays the rent.


Larry

[Mike S. M.]

Shoot film now. You can shoot RED any time you want later.

[Stephen Williams]

Go for the RED. I think it is the future, whether RED or (gad!..sorry about this...) someone else...just like the digital still world...people still shoot film for it's "Better" image, but they are a very few.


Hi,

I generally get paid more money when shooting Film, so most of the work I take is shooting film. It's easier as well!

Stephen

[Matthew Chuang]

If your student... learn with as many formats as you can... if the school is paying for it, shoot 16mm. It'll give you a lot of experience and it'll put you above those who haven't shot film before.

[KStephens]

It's not that i haven't worked on film before. Looking to the future, I think working with RED would look better on a resume, but some of my teachers think film would look better.

It's a constant battle between the two formats for me.

Your first post seemed to imply that the school pays for 16mm but not Red? That's not correct, is it?

Okay, so you've shot on film. Several people seemed to have missed that point. Have you shot on Red? It's your project. You know the details and what you want to do with it. You are the one that knows the people you are going to work with, right? So, obviously as far as the project itself, no one can give you any advice that is better than your own judgment.

As I don't think anyone can tell you what's best for the project, what do you really want people to offer their opinion on? What looks best on a résumé? That seems like a reasonable question, but again, it depends on details not given. What kind of jobs do you expect you'd be applying for? Who would see this résumé?

I, personally, can't imagine choosing 16mm over Red, but you're the one asking.

[Stephen Williams]

I, personally, can't imagine choosing 16mm over Red, but you're the one asking.

Hi,

That sounds as if you have never shot film professionally, if there was a lot of hand holding I know which I would choose!

Stephen

[KStephens]

Hi,

That sounds as if you have never shot film professionally, if there was a lot of hand holding I know which I would choose!

Stephen

:) ... well, we are talking about a student film, aren't we?

[Stephen Williams]

:) ... well, we are talking about a student film, aren't we?

Hi,

Yes but your giving advice to someone who will become a pro, having experiance in shooting film is very valuable, I stopped shooting film for 10 years because video was trendy. Having a choice in life is nice!

Stephen

[KStephens]

Hi,

Yes but your giving advice to someone who will become a pro, having experiance in shooting film is very valuable, I stopped shooting film for 10 years because video was trendy. Having a choice in life is nice!

Stephen

Which he said he has. He didn't say he had Red experience, if I am not mistaken? And I didn't offer that as advice, that was just my enthusiasm. My advice was that he elaborate on what he really wants to know, as I don't think he's given quite enough information to really get good advice. But, that's just my opinion. ;) :innocent:

(And I agree, by the way. I definitely value my 16mm experience!)

[spitfire44]

I am going to chime in here again........shoot film now while you have the chance.

I always thought while i came up thru the ranks how much more difficult it must have been when the fastest film stock around was 125 ASA and the exposure latitude was 3 over and 2 under(or something like that). I even recall reading somewhere that most of Kubrick's 2001 was shot on 50ASA.

nowadays, film stock is so forgiving that it is possible to keep your meter safely tucked away until you need your shooting stop. That is how I work when I shoot film. You just have to learn to evaluate light in this way. It takes time and experience and there is no short cut for this.

For years there has been this prediction of the death of film. I find the use of the word "death" inappropriate. What we are really seeing is an additional type of capture method. We might see film as a capture method become less accessible (financially or otherwise), but at the moment film still lives and used on a professional basis.

I am off to South Africa for a commercial shoot in a few days and we have 100 rolls (40,000ft) of 35mm budgeted...in my eyes, it doesn't get much better than this, but my next job after this will be shot entirely on RED. I can't wait. I love the film experience and I love the RED/digital experience, but they are two totally different animals. Learn them both. Make them your friend.

Eric

[David Rasberry]

I would consider your professor's opinions and academic politics too. You might get downgraded for going against the flow, if that matters too you.

[SandeepDey]

I just noticed this thread, revived, at the top of the list. The last posting by the owner of the thread was in August. But the community still has something to say.

I own a RED but if I had someone picking up the tab on film production costs, I would shoot film.

[Stephen Williams]

I would consider your professor's opinions and academic politics too. You might get downgraded for going against the flow, if that matters too you.

Hi,

Going against the flow is quite important in this business, producing the best results possible for the given budget is more important. Has the professor personally done any work of distinction, or does he teach because that's all he can do?

Stephen

[John Fante]

Shoot film, if you have the chance. It may be the last time you ever get to do so and the experience will be useful for the rest of your career.

[Fran Kuhn]

Hi,

Going against the flow is quite important in this business, producing the best results possible for the given budget is more important. Has the professor personally done any work of distinction, or does he teach because that's all he can do?

Stephen

I agree, Stephen. My next stills project is an editorial piece. After some testing it's been decided it will be shot entirely with two ancient Agfa Record 6x9 film cameras and Kodak Tri-X film, one with uncoated optics purchased off eBay for $12.

In this business, I find it's often the people who take their own path that get the best jobs. If it were me, I'd let everyone else shoot HD, I'd go with 16mm.

-Fran

[Jose Alvarez]

If your school is paying for film and processing, DEFINITELY shoot on film. You might NEVER get this experience again, specially for free. And the knowledge you will acquire from the experience will help you be a more well rounded cinematographer, whether shooting video or film in the future.

One of the things that cinematographers love the most about RED cameras is that the shooting workflow is very similar to that of shooting film. If you don't ever learn this workflow, you will never have a true understanding of what current and past cinematographers went through and how they made decisions to achieve the "look" they were after. Just a thought.

Xoce

[Jonas Nyström]

You might NEVER get this experience again

Heard this argument several times now. But why??? Why learn a medium you will never use again? Same logic as; if you are graphic student don't use DTP, use old metal types. If you are planning to be an architect, don't use CAD, use a pencil. Product designers don't use 3D render programs... I don't get it!

[Stephen Williams]

Heard this argument several times now. But why??? Why learn a medium you will never use again? Same logic as; if you are graphic student don't use DTP, use old metal types. If you are planning to be an architect, don't use CAD, use a pencil. Product designers don't use 3D render programs... I don't get it!

Hi,

Film will be around for a very long time, if you choose to ignore the highest paid part of the industry thats fine by me. I am happy to say you're not the only one who doesn't get it. :innocent:

I do know an architect who does multi million euro projects that prefers sketching with a pencil.

Stephen

[Sanjin Jukic]

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/The-Wrestler-Fox-Searchlight.jpg
The Wrestler starring Mickey Rourke and directed by Darren Aronofsky just won the Golden Lion at the 2008 Venice Film Festival.

Shot on Super16 with Arriflex 416, Zeiss Ultra Prime Lenses.

Trailer HD1080p>>> (http://movies.apple.com/movies/fox_searchlight/thewrestler/thewrestler-tlra_1080p.mov)

Tech specs>>> (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1125849/technical)

[Fran Kuhn]

Heard this argument several times now. But why??? Why learn a medium you will never use again? Same logic as; if you are graphic student don't use DTP, use old metal types. If you are planning to be an architect, don't use CAD, use a pencil. Product designers don't use 3D render programs... I don't get it!

Hi Jonas,

When CAD drawings are hung in galleries, I'll agree with that logic.

BTW it's funny you mention CAD. The agency creative for a shoot I did in September said his biggest complaint about digital imaging is it makes everything look like a CAD drawing.:)

Nice work on your site, BTW.

-Fran

http://www.frankuhn.com

[Jase]

Heard this argument several times now. But why??? Why learn a medium you will never use again? Same logic as; if you are graphic student don't use DTP, use old metal types. If you are planning to be an architect, don't use CAD, use a pencil. Product designers don't use 3D render programs... I don't get it!

Shooting film will teach you more about cinematography than shooting on HD. It's not so important as to what format you shoot, but to increase your knowledge as a cinematographer. Look at what you can gain with film... the red cameras will be around forever and you'll have so many chances to shoot that, as you will with film. But you would be better off learning more about this now as a student, then a few years down the road when you're hired on. can't make mistakes then!

[spitfire44]

Heard this argument several times now. But why??? Why learn a medium you will never use again? Same logic as; if you are graphic student don't use DTP, use old metal types. If you are planning to be an architect, don't use CAD, use a pencil. Product designers don't use 3D render programs... I don't get it!

Jonas, with all due respect, I find your logic that sounds like....don't waste your time shooting film, a bit surprising. I mean, come on, this is all about the learning process for a film student. Plus I assure you that film on a high end professsional level will be a viable capture medium longer than you think. I might have taken your quote a bit harder than you meant it, but it really sounds uninformed. I guarantee, anyone who has never shot film and has no film projects on their reel during the next 3-5 years will not get that film job they really want.

RED is stupid cool, but film is stupid cool too.

I only wish I had shot more Ektachrome and Kodachrome (that is some great stock...check out "Three Kings") before telecine and other post processes such DI, rendered it obsolete(read financially not viable)..but if I have a chance and could justify it creatively I would still shoot it.
I wish I had shot more 22 or 31 for the same reason...

OH.....one last thing.....the guy who started this thread is AWOL or MIA or whatever you want to call it...I PM's him several times to find out what he ended up doing, but I have yet to get a response...so GWERTHEIM, if you are out there.....what did you end up doing?

Eric

[Mark Warren]

Like all students he probably ended up making a film that included (a) nazis (b) religion or (c) sex or more likely a nazi having sex on an altar.

As a sidelight, the first time I loaded a 16mm mag as a kid I loaded it with the emulsion wrong way up. And shot for a day with it. I wish I had the photo of my curious expression when the rushes came back.

[Dylan Macleod, CSC]

If there is no cost difference, shoot film.

Film still has better dynamic range!

[Robert Horwell]

Shoot film, shoot film, shoot film. Do it. Learn about it, take what you learn across when you shoot digital. Plenty of time to shoot on an electronic media. If i could i would go film every time.