bandPro, the F23, and RED

[robinbuday]

(message deleted)

[Rick Darge]

I love all the gossip that is coming out of RED

Way to pee in everyones cheerios RED team!

With your revolution and all..

[robinbuday]

(Deleted)

[Clay Morrison]

Just for your information, there is a guy the WORKS for BandPro (SONY, SONY, SONY) that has a Red reservation in the 50s! That tells you something...

[robinbuday]

(Deleted)

[Clay Morrison]

Correct. Apparently he is like all of us.

[Alexander Black]

Well, they would be idiots at the price point. For them it would be a question of risk, not a question of a real value judgement. It probably varies within the organization: the skeptics that are not quite convinced (though I nearly bust a nut watching that jackson footage, my god) and the fanboys. Either way at ~$50k they can't afford not to have at least a couple on hand in case they become the new hot camera on the rental market.

[Matthew Verkler]

Well, they would be idiots at the price point. For them it would be a question of risk, not a question of a real value judgement. It probably varies within the organization: the skeptics that are not quite convinced (though I nearly bust a nut watching that jackson footage, my god) and the fanboys. Either way at ~$50k they can't afford not to have at least a couple on hand in case they become the new hot camera on the rental market.

Yes, many nuts were (almost?) busted! Including mine, twice. Well worth the wait in line!

[feb31films]

The guy even went as far as to say that the HVX was a failure because of it's small image sensor and P2 format which is slowly proving to be a non-reliable media. I realize that the XDCAM has better specs technically, but has anyone seen 24P XDCAM footage that looks as filmic as an HVX with 35mm adapters? If you have please link me to it!

Actually I'd rather link you to this: www.oneofthegirls.tv

Promo was shot with an HVX and Redrock Micro. Pilot is slated to be shot in the next few months - I'm almost tempted to delay it until our RED camera arrives, but if I push it 6 months, the shows creator will KILL me. Enjoy and I can't wait to see the users on this forum start posting their own RED footage as the cameras ship!

[jaadgy akanni]

Actually I'd rather link you to this: www.oneofthegirls.tv

Promo was shot with an HVX and Redrock Micro. Pilot is slated to be shot in the next few months - I'm almost tempted to delay it until our RED camera arrives, but if I push it 6 months, the shows creator will KILL me. Enjoy and I can't wait to see the users on this forum start posting their own RED footage as the cameras ship!

That looked pretty interesting and professional. I don't think you should stop your world just to wait for the RED. Keep shooting; don't waste time, for it's too precious. You'll have your RED in due time and ideas will continue to flow.

P.S: BTW, tell the guy who does the titles that it's "prov(o)cative," spelled with an O, not prov(a)cative with an A. In this art, i'ts very important to pay attention to detail at all times.

[Robert Jackson]

You mean, he didn't want their "flagship" camera instead? :biggrin:

The F23 seems like a great camera. It's a 3-chip 4:4:4 design with a lot of proven technology under the hood. That said, it's big, heavy, expensive and doesn't have the resolution of the RED.

RED's really got a jump on everyone, IMO. I was at the Dalsa booth looking at their new 4K camera and it's the size of a minibar fridge. I don't care that it's ugly as sin, but it's ugly as sin and HUGE. It's like someone said, "What we need is a digital BNCR!"

The Phantom HD rig looked kind of cool. Their demo was impressive. I never really got a straight answer from them about price, though. I assume that means it's pretty expensive. The cameras are relatively compact, though. They reminded me of those hand-held fog machines that some people use to catch the light on a set.

The RED is the only solution that allows an indie guy to have affordable control his entire workflow from front to back using readily-available hardware and software. I think the whole concept of making a 4K camera that can be handled in post by a guy with a Mac kind of offends a lot of people in the industry. It's like bypassing military contractors and offering hammers to the armed forces for less than $15k each. "But our milspec hammers are field-tested to perform nail insertions under enemy fire. You'll appreciate where that $15,000 went when you try to hang a sign while someone discharges an AK-47 at you! At $300 each our nails are also reliable in the field."

[Steve Gibby]

The RED is the only solution that allows an indie guy to have affordable control his entire workflow from front to back using readily-available hardware and software. I think the whole concept of making a 4K camera that can be handled in post by a guy with a Mac kind of offends a lot of people in the industry. It's like bypassing military contractors and offering hammers to the armed forces for less than $15k each. "But our milspec hammers are field-tested to perform nail insertions under enemy fire. You'll appreciate where that $15,000 went when you try to hang a sign while someone discharges an AK-47 at you! At $300 each our nails are also reliable in the field."

You "nailed" it!

A high performance to price ratio is a key feature of any so-called "disruptive technology". The RED One camera system appears to have a very high performance envelope, coupled with a very moderate price point in relation. The motion media industry giants have traditionally offered products with a low/moderate performance envelope and a high price point in relation to that performance - and somehow gotten away with it.

It's a thoroughly novel concept in the motion media industry to actually get more than you you pay for in a commodity! We've all been guilty of settling for less performance than we paid for. But there simply seemed to be no other options. For reasons of legacy investment, peer pressure, stubbornness, tradition, loyalty, and a myriad of other factors, many motion media professionals will continue to accept a low performance to price ratio in their equipment. For me, I will now seek a high performance to price ratio in everything I purchase.

The genie is out of the bottle now...and don't expect it to somehow go back in and pull the cork into place after it. That won't happen...

[Thomas Koch]

I read somewhere that BandPro was buying 50 F23s. I'd tell you how much that is, but I can't even do math that high!

[Stephen Williams]

I read somewhere that BandPro was buying 50 F23s. I'd tell you how much that is, but I can't even do math that high!

Hi,

Thats nothing, they ordered 1000 digi primes so Zeiss would go into production!

Stephen

[Erik Bianchi]

well im sitting in the UGL at my school in the computer lab at station F23, if the camera is anything like this, its ugly, slow, dirty, and bulky as hell. (1ghz emac with 512mb of ram with a keyboard where the keys are brown and you can see tons of dirt and dust underneath them. i think i need to be vaccinated. so, in short, thats why i would never get an F23.:tongue:

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I just spent 5 days at NAB with my titanium R around my neck and as you might imagine I got into a number of discussions about the RedOne. I am an amiable sort unless riled and had mostly collegial conversations about the camera, mostly.

Disruptive technologies are legitimate threats to entrenched oligopolies and folks who derive their livelihood from established players in the biz were the most likely to deride the RedOne. I found it especially ironic that the ones who knew the least about the tech were typically the most dismissive of its value.

IMHO Sony and Avid in particular have used their market leverage to maximize ROI and protect market segments without apparent regard for their user base as anything other than a source of income. They (and others too numerous to detail) have gotten fat, lazy and dependent on a margin level that I do not believe is sustainable. RED and Apple are leading the charge to a whole new model.

Looking around NAB this year I was struck by which companies seemed to be making "buggy whips" and which ones are on the express train. I saw a lot of people in expensive suits sitting around in large, fancy and empty booths. Mike Curtis had it right, the RedOne represents a point of inflection in this business. I would go even further in saying that Final Cut Studio 2 and some other next gen products represent a point of inflection across the post landscape as well - much of it enabled by modern codecs that remove the requirement for uncompressed workflows to play the high end game.

[feb31films]

That looked pretty interesting and professional. I don't think you should stop your world just to wait for the RED. Keep shooting; don't waste time, for it's too precious. You'll have your RED in due time and ideas will continue to flow.

P.S: BTW, tell the guy who does the titles that it's "prov(o)cative," spelled with an O, not prov(a)cative with an A. In this art, i'ts very important to pay attention to detail at all times.

Glad you liked it. And good catch. The spot went through several revisions before we were all happy with it and it looks an older version might have been posted by accident.:ohmy:

I think I'm going to ask Apple to add spell check to MOTION.

[Vincent Rice]

I just spent 5 days at NAB with my titanium R around my neck and as you might imagine I got into a number of discussions about the RedOne. I am an amiable sort unless riled and had mostly collegial conversations about the camera, mostly.

Disruptive technologies are legitimate threats to entrenched oligopolies and folks who derive their livelihood from established players in the biz were the most likely to deride the RedOne. I found it especially ironic that the ones who knew the least about the tech were typically the most dismissive of its value.

IMHO Sony and Avid in particular have used their market leverage to maximize ROI and protect market segments without apparent regard for their user base as anything other than a source of income. They (and others too numerous to detail) have gotten fat, lazy and dependent on a margin level that I do not believe is sustainable. RED and Apple are leading the charge to a whole new model.

Looking around NAB this year I was struck by which companies seemed to be making "buggy whips" and which ones are on the express train. I saw a lot of people in expensive suits sitting around in large, fancy and empty booths. Mike Curtis had it right, the RedOne represents a point of inflection in this business. I would go even further in saying that Final Cut Studio 2 and some other next gen products represent a point of inflection across the post landscape as well - much of it enabled by modern codecs that remove the requirement for uncompressed workflows to play the high end game.

That's a great post Blair.

I think they are going to writing text books about RED in a couple of years.

Ooh, now there's an idea :wink:

[MikeCurtis]

Blair (and indirectly Vinney) - thanks for saying that, I took a LOT of heat when I made that "point of inflection" statement last year.

The image quality Red is showing is very impressive. Dalsa, Genesis and F23 also have impressive imagery, but their form factors, recording media, and most especially their costs do not make them as impressive, in my mind, as the total Red package. Not to mention the resolution, sensor size, and frame rate comparisons between those cameras and the Red One.

I keep saying it - technology is only as valid as its price point. Yes, we can go to the moon, but its kinda expensive and we don't do it very often. However, we can fly from Austin to Vegas for about $300 round trip. Which do you think is going to have more of an impact on the world around us?

Technology. At a price point. Makes a difference.

Red.

-mike

[GlennChan]

Perhaps the argument for the f23 is:

1- If you need a camera NOW, you can probably get the f23. Red is backed up with all its reservation holders.

As well, the f23 just slots right into existing workflows (in high-end environments, where the post house has a HDCAM SR deck already). You don't have to spend time figuring out the ins and outs of a data workflow.

If you are on a tight deadline, the f23 is not a bad idea.

2a- Some people equate price with quality. Red is too good to be true / probably not that good when it costs a fraction of the price. If you aren't spending a lot of money on the camera then your client might get worried.

2b- If you're an ad agency, there isn't that much incentive to save money.

3- The F23 is less risky since it's based on tried and tested technology and workflows. As well, the completion bond company will be happy with tape acquisition.

Now of course the Red camera makes a lot more sense for nearly everyone on this board. But there is a niche market for the F23, and Sony will probably sell enough of their cameras to make a profit.

[vidalsosa]

... Now of course the Red camera makes a lot more sense for nearly everyone on this board. But there is a niche market for the F23, and Sony will probably sell enough of their cameras to make a profit.

True, GlenChann, but the question remains, for how long will Sony continue to make profit after the RedOne becomes readily available in the market?

[Leo Ticheli]

I have to add that the guys at Band Pro are first-rate professionals. They sell many accessories that we'll need for our Red cameras, matte boxes, follow focus units, etc. I've been buying from them for years and have full confidence in them.

I must say I was surprised that one of my friends at Band Pro has ordered a Red since they are such an important part of Sony's sales. The gentleman who ordered the Red is highly respected and really knows his stuff. I think it speaks volumes for the promise Red holds!

As for the F23, I'm sure it's a very nice camera and you can bet it will work exactly as advertised. That security means a great deal to those who have huge sums at risk on a production.

Of course I believe the F23 is in the neighborhood of 200K for the body and recorder. Yikes! Far too expensive for my clients.

Good shooting and best regards to all,

Leo

[Vincent Rice]

I read you every day Mike. I had no problem with your remarks!
Its all about disruptive technology. That's where the fun is.

[vidalsosa]

... Eight more reasons to wait for the RedOne.:matrix: