Poll: Will you use Final Cut Studio with Red?

[nobodySpecial]

With all the talk and excitement in these forums about using or not using Final Cut, I thought I would put up a little poll to see what people are thinking right now. This is a look at workflow exclusive of REDCINE.

For the interest of disclosure, I'm looking at this from the systems side of the equation. I'm working on my ACSA (http://train.apple.com/certification/acsa.html) with an emphasis in pro video infrastructure (Xsan, Xserve, Xserve RAID, etc). Just looking to see if there might be a nascent market forming out there of RED users. And NO, I WILL NOT be PMing you to hit you up for business if you answer the poll. :biggrin:

-Mark
RED user, by proxy. Someday... maybe...

[Ken Corben]

I was thinking of returning to the tried and true industry standard (see attachment) failing that since I own FCS, the computers, monitors and drives plus the upgrade to FCS 2 is $499 it's a "no brainer" especially since the REDCODE codec update is in the near future.

[Chris Kenny]

I was already a Final Cut guy, so maybe I'm biased, but... with Red actually working with Apple on native support, FCP is the obvious choice for anyone who doesn't want to go uncompressed, isn't it?

Maybe Red will work with other NLE vendors on native support in the future, but Apple and Red are just a natural fit. They view the market in a very similar way. Red is building what should be a $100K+ camera for $17.5K, meanwhile Apple is bundling what was a $25K color grading app with a $1300 software package.

And take a look at this choice quote from Apple's NAB event:

"Pro quality editing workstations cost upwards of $100k back then [in 1999] -- we wanted to bring that power to everyone. A democratization of the editing process." (from Engaget's coverage (http://www.engadget.com/2007/04/15/apple-keynote-live-from-nab-2007/))

Red and Apple are clearly on the same page. I'm not sure e.g. Avid is even in the same book.

[Poi Boy]

ditto what Chris said.
-A

[Blaine Golden]

As a current Final Cut Studio user it's somewhat of a no-brainer, especially considering the magnitude of the upgrade. At $499 for the upgrade it's a slam dunk. Yes, I'll be using FCS for my editing. I am so stoked to get going with RED that it's nearly impossible to wait until July for delivery.

[Álex Montoya]

Hmmm... I work with premiere pro and after effects and I guess that by the time I get the camera the workflow in premiere will already be established.

I mean, premiere is truly resolution independent so I guess implementing a worlflow in it should be almost as easy as installing the redocde

[MDP16]

Well I was at NAB when they opened the doors on the first day of exhibits. Everyone including me was basically running straight past Avid to get to the Red and Apple stuff. That must have been very discomforting for the Avid people. I for sure am going to stick with FCP.

[d. sweetman]

I'd have to get it working with Avid; I can use anything but Avid feels like home. It seems to me hardly any features cut on FCP, an editor at a top posthouse once told me "every now and then a Cold Mountain comes out and everyone says 'see, Final Cut can do features' but what they don't show you is the five guys they have running around after the primary editor cleaning up the mess..." I've never done an online though so I'm just going by his word. Nor do I really know what they'll be adding with the new version.

[Gunleik Groven]

Pulled my card to get the upgrade as soon as it was available. Red and Color. Gee, that wasn't too hard to decide on.

Gunleik

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm already a mixed Mac / PC shop... I use FCS regularly on most projects... $499 for the upgrade to get Color, 3D particles and tracking / match moving in Motion, multiple format / resolution clips on the same timeline in FCP6 as well as native REDCODE support coming soon (most likely before I get my camera). I'd be a dumbass to not spend the $499 upgrade price. ...So I pre-ordered it. We will also get 4K support in Color within the next few upgrades too.

[Joe Carney]

I'd prefer to stay with a windows based workflow. But 'Color' and the new Motion are very compelling. One can still use AE and Photoshop on a Mac.
For me it will be entirely new purchaces of both Hardware and Software. But the same goes if I switch to Premier. (Current Vegas user).
I don't plan on getting that AJA box if I did move to FCP. I would use Redcine to convert to Redcode raw 2K since my main interest is (HD)DVD, Internet and HD Broadcast. I wouldn't take anything out of raw till final output (maybe a ow rez version for sound editing).

Joe C.

[Jaime Vallés]

FCP for me, all the way. I'll need a new Mac Pro (I'm on a Rev A Dual 2GHz G5 right now) and a bunch of storage space, but being able to edit native Redcode RAW at downscaled resolutions for speed is too good to pass up.

[Adam Jeal]

I'm currently using Avid on Mac - but not for much longer! FCP continues to evolve whereas Avid just rest on their laurels. Avid should take a leaf out of Red's book and start listening to the little guys.

Avid are also bad at listening to bigger clients - I know a company that hires out Avid systems in the UK and spent millions on kit but they still get treated like crap by Avid who have such an 'attitude'.

The saving grace of Avid used to be it's media management, that was much better than FCP's, but that seems to have changed now that Apple have Final Cut Server (which looks kickass!).

Goodbye Avid - you've only brought this on yourselves:rip_1:

[Shawn Bannon]

Red and Final Cut are on the same wavelength.

My company switched to Final Cut a few years ago, but we still have Avids.
As for editing goes they're both awesome programs. I edited on film for years so any non-linear sytem is amazing to me.

If Red=Final Cut
Then Avid reminds me of Sony Cameras.

[Craig Bowman]

I use multiple platforms all the time. At work I will use the FCP2 version for REDCODE RAW when available and I Will use Redcine on PC at home. Besides my own Red we have one reserved for work for now, but more will be in that pipeline very soon I'll bet.

[Yash Keough]

I'm already a mixed Mac / PC shop... I use FCS regularly on most projects... $499 for the upgrade to get Color, 3D particles and tracking / match moving in Motion, multiple format / resolution clips on the same timeline in FCP6 as well as native REDCODE support coming soon (most likely before I get my camera). I'd be a dumbass to not spend the $499 upgrade price. ...So I pre-ordered it. We will also get 4K support in Color within the next few upgrades too.

4K support for Color? While I'm assuming it's gotta come soon, do you mean that they will release a free update to FCS2 soon? And do you know when? I'm interested to see when this gets an update as pretty much all the pieces for 4K are in place, except for grading! Hmmm...

Yash

[Jeff Kilgroe]

4K support for Color? While I'm assuming it's gotta come soon, do you mean that they will release a free update to FCS2 soon? And do you know when? I'm interested to see when this gets an update as pretty much all the pieces for 4K are in place, except for grading! Hmmm...

I don't know any details other than it is coming. FCP is targeting 4K and supporting it with Pro Res and (in the near future) REDCODE as well as uncompressed sequences / DPX, etc.. I know a few people who were told by Apple reps at NAB that 4K within Color is very high on their to-do list. I don't know if it will be a part of the coming free upgrade cycles or not, but it is coming. AFAIK, Motion is still limited to 2K as well. Someone please tell me I'm wrong...

[Gopher77]

To me there seems to be a lot of unanswered questions. I think FCP has made some great strides in the right direction, but I still have some reservations. for instance I feel like thier starting the Sony double talk routine with statements like "use ProRes 422, a new post-production format from Apple that offers uncompressed HD quality at SD file sizes" OK the whole world would love to know how you can keep uncompressed which means 4:4:4 color in a SD file size that is 1/4 the information?

I think FCP made some great improvements, but don't insult our intelligence. Tell us what the compression is so we can make informed descions. So statements like that make me leary of RED support, is it going to be another double speak of hidden compression? I hope they don't continue this practice, because I'd certainly switch if they can truly offer a software based finishing platform whose resolution can stand up to the big screen.

I'm sure that many FCP entusist will refute this statement, but thats my 2 cents.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Once ProRes is available it will be fun to compare the output to HDCAM-SR, if they are virtually indistinguishable then for anything other than theatrical I would just use ProRes. It is annoying that they haven't told us more about the codec but if it gets the job done and testing doesn't show any concatenation problems I'll get over it.

Until there is more 4k support in some future iteration of FCS I would matchback to the 4k DCN when finishing for 35mm filmout or the DCI 4k spec. If you don't have the budget go 2k.

Bottom line - it seems everybody is focused on what RedOne, FCS and ProRes are not. I am fired up about what it is - better than what Lucas used for Star Wars Episode 1 for a fraction of the cost.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I am fired up about what it is - better than what Lucas used for Star Wars Episode 1 for a fraction of the cost.

Exactly. This is incredible, especially given the cost. In a few short months from now us RED users are going to have so much power at our finger tips that it's mind boggling. A lot of us will have to come to the realization that our tools are no longer to blame for shortcomings in our productions. We're only limited by our talent (or lack thereof) and resources.

A lot of people with the "oh it doesn't give me full 4K support in Color yet, I'll pass" attitude. OK, fine... But what will they use? Of course there are other options, but they still come at a premium price. There's a good bet that Color and Motion will have 4K support and 4K support within FCP will expand by the end of this year. I'm expecting Leopard in October, new Penryn based Mac Pro systems sometime between then and January, updated FCS2 with more 4K capabilities, etc.. And my RED should be shipping around then too. Yeeehaaw!

Oh, and I'm still interested in what Adobe and Cineform are up to as well on the PC side of the coin... I like my Macs, but I'm not a zealot with tunnel-vision and I still own and use more PC systems than Mac systems.

[Drew Mylrea]

Sorry for being a booger. Episode 1 was shot on 35, 2 and 3 on the CineAlta. I'd say a better comparison would be Zodiac, which IMHO looked amazing.

[feb31films]

Agreed - the addition of Final Touch (I mean COLOR!) and ProRes makes Final Cut Studio THE NLE for indie film and many other markets. Though, this is not the first trade show where Apple failed to deliver EVERYTHING its professional users wanted. It's a bit of a CATCH 22 with Apple, they make such great strides with professional products, but go through periods where the professionals get back burner-ed for the consumer products. The iMac, the iPod and now with the upcoming iPhone. But those consumer products are what keeps Apple in business. Without those sales, there wouldn't be enough money for R&D on the professional end. I'm waiting with bated breath (as most of you are I'm sure) that right after the release of Leopard, we'll see the release of ProRes 4:4:4. and then the revolution will be truly at hand!

[feb31films]

I was thinking of returning to the tried and true industry standard (see attachment) failing that since I own FCS, the computers, monitors and drives plus the upgrade to FCS 2 is $499 it's a "no brainer" especially since the REDCODE codec update is in the near future.


LOL!!! Yeah, I think I'll shoot my next feature with my KODAK Brownie II 8mm camera (now with easier winding mechanism).

PS: How are you doing Ken? Did you make it home OK? Your story was inspiring. We wish you a speedy recovery.

[David Kirlew]

While I love what Apple is doing witih Final Cut Pro and the Studio I believe I will stick a CineForm workflow. Apple's ProRez, while VBR is still a DCT codec like Avid's DNxHD. It isn't wavelet like CineForm. With CineForm going cross platform later this year I can use it with Adobe Premiere and Final Cut Pro.

[Poi Boy]

With what you get from apple for $1299 I don't know how you could say the revolution ain't already at hand.
-A

[Stephen Gentle]

If I ever get a RED (or a red mini) I will probably go to FCS for editing, grading, titles, audio editing etc, and use After Effects (with Photoshop) for compositing, unless the Shake replacement is really cheap.

[Cail Young]

If I ever get a RED (or a red mini) I will probably go to FCS for editing, grading, titles, audio editing etc, and use After Effects (with Photoshop) for compositing, unless the Shake replacement is really cheap.

Shake itself is really cheap right now! Give nodal compositing a chance! :)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Shake itself is really cheap right now! Give nodal compositing a chance! :)

Shake is awesome. Still one of the best compositing apps out there and in many ways can hold its own against the big guys like Fusion. ...Just because it's discontinued, doesn't mean people have stopped using it. It's $499, even cheaper from some mail order vendors. And the Apple Pro Series training book/DVD for it gets rave reviews from new users. If you need a compositing app, this is the way to go... Everything else is at least 10X the price. Well, there's always DFX+ (Fusion Lite), but it's only 8bit and really just meant for DV / HDV and still over $1K. After Effects is great too, but Shake is still a lot better at a lot of things and like I already said, with the price how can you pass it up?

[Nick Shaw]

I'll add my recomendation for Shake. Nodal compositing is the way to go for serious work. It takes a bit of getting used to after the layered approach of After Effects, but it's worth it.

When people get FCS 2, they will find there are similarities in look between Color and Shake, and Color also uses the nodal processing approach. So Shake won't look so strange once you've used color.

Looking forward to Phenomenon. The combination of the flexibility of Shake with the GPU acceleration of Motion will be a powerful tool indeed.

[Anders Holck]

Is Redcode compatible with my Steenbeck?

[nobodySpecial]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies. About 150 votes in less than 2 days. Very interesting too. My current 9-5 is as a software architect for a survey analysis company. All these great replies makes me wonder if we should call up RED and put a real survey together. :biggrin: Something that would give them a good idea of the current user base (film, broadcast, etc), and what the needs and concerns out there are (4k color, data storage, etc). Of course, they may have already asked all this when they got your reservation.

Later,
-Mark

[Chris Kenny]

Is Redcode compatible with my Steenbeck?

Not directly, but it's easy to transcode into the correct format with the right hardware (http://www.arri.com/prod/digital/arrilaser/index.php). :)

[Stephen Gentle]

Shake itself is really cheap right now! Give nodal compositing a chance! :)

I know... I would love to get Shake, but I don't have a Mac. Of course if I get a good camera, I would buy a Mac Pro in a second. FCS is just too good to pass up!