David Mullen (ASC) on Red

[vidalsosa]

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?showtopic=22419

Nice!

[Ken Corben]

Nice to hear from a pro - Jim said the 2 day shoot made him very proud of the camera(s).

[Manfred Lopez]

Man, for a second I thought he had switched over to Reduser.com :)

[vidalsosa]

One of the more qualified, while yet, objective folks out there. Ironic you might wonder.

[Stephen Williams]

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?showtopic=22419

Nice!

Hi,

That's not such a bad site then! LOL

Stephen

[Ace]

Hes crossed over to the dark side! Muahaha

[vidalsosa]

Hi,

That's not such a bad site then! LOL

Stephen

Not at all Stephen. No one ever said it was. Sure more than a few jesters spill their guts out there, doesn't make 'em all complicit. Let's just say the haters know themselves. Hating for no reason is what I find most apalling I must add.

[Manfred Lopez]

Finally someone with an ASC surename sez it:

"I think [Red's] success is going to shake-up the long-held domination of corporations like Sony and Panasonic"
-- David Mullen, ASC

"I would describe the look as something like 5245 50D 35mm scanned at 4K -- sharp & clean"
-- David Mullen, ASC

[vidalsosa]

Finally someone with an ASC surename sez it:

"I think [Red's] success is going to shake-up the long-held domination of corporations like Sony and Panasonic"
-- David Mullen, ASC

"I would describe the look as something like 5245 50D 35mm scanned at 4K -- sharp & clean"
-- David Mullen, ASC

I can't wait to see those quotes up on red.com

[Mike the beginner]

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?showtopic=22419

Nice!

Having read a lot of the posts that David Mullen has done in various forums i never expected anything but an honest assessment.

I am sure there will be other prominent people that will also give a good honest assessment. Likewise there will still be some that will never say anything good about red but then i suppose there are a few people on this forum that would never say anything negative about red so it all evens out in the end.

It will be interesting when we get a subjective honest assessmnet of the new red zoom and the red primes.

Mike the beginner

[vidalsosa]

... It will be interesting when we get a subjective honest assessmnet of the new red zoom and the red primes.

Mike the beginner

Subjective and honest in the same sentence sounds kind of contradictory don't you think?

[Policar]

This guy's a real class act; he's offered me advice before on cinematography.com and it's always been extremely helpful and considerate of budget restrictions. Good stuff.

[Alexander Nikishin]

The only statement that I question in David's post is this,

"In a lot of ways, this camera is what the Kinetta promised to be three years ago, and I think its success is going to shake-up the long-held domination of corporations like Sony and Panasonic in the mid-range professional video camera world."

Mid-range? I beg to differ...If you consider Red to be in the mid range then what would high end be?

The Viper?
The Genesis?
The D-20?
The F23?

Red exceeds the quality of all these in many aspects. In the least.....Red is more than comparable to the "high end" competitors.

[Chris Kenny]

Hi,
That's not such a bad site then! LOL


Really, as I've said previously, there are a lot of knowledgeable people over there. There are also a few people who seem to make a hobby of derailing Red-related threads in the most unpleasant ways possible. Like in the thread that finally got me to stop posting there, were you and I were having a discussion about about potential business models built around Red... and then another poster (I won't name names) provoked an incident by accusing me of being a Red marketing plant. There are also people who will simply say outrageous things (e.g. "Red output still looks like glorified DV") that can only be intended to stir up argument.

All of this makes it hard to have a meaningful discussions. Hopefully once the camera is in people's hands, this sort of nonsense will get drowned out by substance. Until then, I'll lurk to see what knowledgeable folks like David Mullen are saying, but I probably won't be posting.

[vidalsosa]

The only statement that I question in David's post is this,

"In a lot of ways, this camera is what the Kinetta promised to be three years ago, and I think its success is going to shake-up the long-held domination of corporations like Sony and Panasonic in the mid-range professional video camera world."

Mid-range? I beg to differ...If you consider Red to be in the mid range then what would high end be?

The Viper?
The Genesis?
The D-20?
The F23?

Red exceeds the quality of all these in many aspects. In the least.....Red is more than comparable to the "high end" competitors.

I would tend to think so as well. But then again, don't have my Red yet. :bleh:

[Chris Kenny]

Red exceeds the quality of all these in many aspects. In the least.....Red is more than comparable to the "high end" competitors.

Yes. But it probably won't shake things up quite as much there. IMO, there are two really revolutionary things about Red:

1) They've made 4K practical, with REDCODE and a compact camera body.
2) They're selling the camera for an amazing price.

At the high-end, pockets are so deep that the second factor doesn't come into play much. As such, Red is going to shake up the mid-range more than the high-end.

The mid-range market is also far larger and more established, so shaking that up is actually a greater accomplishment, from a business perspective.

[Stephen Williams]

Until then, I'll lurk to see what knowledgeable folks like David Mullen are saying, but I probably won't be posting.

Hi Chris,

I know we don't always agree, however I think your posts will me missed.

Stephen

[Filmfotograf Magnus Roman]

I badly need to by a Red One...
Thanks David.

[Mardi_Gras]

I badly need to by a Red One...
Thanks David.

OMG, David's post has started another revolution... resolution, which is it?

[Mike the beginner]

Subjective and honest in the same sentence sounds kind of contradictory don't you think?



Well you can be subjective and dishonest at the same time:biggrin: can't you!

[Chris Gearhart]

Likewise there will still be some that will never say anything good about red but then i suppose there are a few people on this forum that would never say anything negative about red

Yes, but the latter are infinitely closer to being accurate and realistic. :biggrin:

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

So you´d choose an accurate optimist over a realistic pessimist?

Sorry, shutting up now.

Jochen

[Mike the beginner]

So you´d choose an accurate optimist over a realistic pessimist?

Sorry, shutting up now.

Jochen

Yeh if Jim jannard had been a realistic pessimist there would be no red camera.

Thats a good post Kenny (about mid range market) you nailed that one!



Mike the beginner

[Jim McKinney]

"Subjective and honest in the same sentence sounds kind of contradictory don't you think?"

Without collapsing into some sort of Husserl-ian diatribe, I actually feel subjectivity can be quite compatible with honesty.

We can read all the specs of a particular technology or camera. This would be an objective assessment (we hope!). But if you shoot with a camera and then review the results - well in many respects, you are performing a more "subjective" assessment. In the end, it is this assessment that carries the day. That's why it's so encouraging to hear positive feedback from the likes of David Mullen, Geoff Boyle, Jeff Krienes, and many others. (I had plans to go to NAB to see for myself, but a very large tree fell on my house on Sunday!)

The proof is in the puddin'.

Jim McKinney, d.p.
Atlanta

[Jaime Vallés]

Fantastic endorsement from David Mullen! No hype, just the personal observations of a highly respected professional cinematographer. Exactly the kind of review that can make or break a camera.

I'm so very glad that RED exists!

[Zakaree Sandberg]

.
At the high-end, pockets are so deep that the second factor doesn't come into play much. As such, Red is going to shake up the mid-range more than the high-end.


totally.. but, smart producers arent gunna fork out that kind of cash for a lesser quality camera in the long run..

better films will be made.. not just cuz of the amazing quality of the camera.. but because they can focus on using cash elsewhere..
like in Tom Cruises tripple decker tailor with a bathtub filled with red m&m's, figi water showers (the bottled figi waters), blankets made out of the pages of dianetics by L ron Hubbard, and a real life space alien butler.

[Ace]

totally.. but, smart producers arent gunna fork out that kind of cash for a lesser quality camera in the long run..

better films will be made.. not just cuz of the amazing quality of the camera.. but because they can focus on using cash elsewhere..
like in Tom Cruises tripple decker tailor with a bathtub filled with red m&m's, figi water showers (the bottled figi waters), blankets made out of the pages of dianetics by L ron Hubbard, and a real life space alien butler.

Your being glib. You dont know the history of cinematography, I do. Ive researched it. :)

[JD Holloway]

Your being glib. You dont know the history of cinematography, I do. Ive researched it. :)

HAHA nice reference...
had me going for a second!

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Your being glib. You dont know the history of cinematography, I do. Ive researched it. :)

hhahahah too funny

[I Bloom]

David's alway been willing to cross over, shooting films like Jackpot on HD before it was cool. He's also an awesome guy with more digital technical knowledge than most of the ASC guys. This is a great endorsement though I think that those who simply love red and can't find fault should take note of the most important part of his post:

Exposure range was excellent, though I would say that color negative still holds the edge in overexposure detail. This was closer to what you'd expect from a high-end digital SLR still image in terms of dynamic range, or a slightly contrasty color negative stock like 5245.
-- David Mullen ASC

Thats the kind of objectively and constructively critical information that RedUser.net needs more of. It answers a question that has been on my mind for a while, and that anyone who saw the PJ piece could have talked about. What else can we find and share from that piece to actually learn something about this thing rather than drool about it tell we get ours.

[vidalsosa]

... I think that those who simply love red and can't find fault should take note of the most important part of his post:

Exposure range was excellent, though I would say that color negative still holds the edge in overexposure detail. This was closer to what you'd expect from a high-end digital SLR still image in terms of dynamic range, or a slightly contrasty color negative stock like 5245.
-- David Mullen ASC



Unless I'm missing something here, I don't see how the above is the "most important part of his post". His post pretty much covered a whole lot of paces with regards image quality, sensor, processing and even went as far as comparing the image from the Red to that from the same filmstock mentioned above. I think the post in its entirety, speaks for itself. Not one paragrah, but the whole assessment. That is how he saw it, how he presented it.

[Yash Keough]

All in all, it sounded like a very good, well rounded observation of RED. Positive but not uncritical. Nice Mr. Mullen. Very informative.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Another great quote from David Mullen on c.com......

"I have yet to see Arri-D20 or Genesis footage projected digitally at 4K, so my impression for now is that the RED image seems more detailed, as you might expect. I saw a demo of the Dalsa projected at 2K in their facility and the RED and Dalsa camera, to me, seem to produce roughly similar pictures. There is a chance that the Dalsa may have a slight edge on dynamic range, but without testing, that's a wild guess. But toss in the small size and the low price of the RED in comparison..."

[Don Woods]

Was a nice read good find

[David Mullen ASC]

It's weird to read people talking about me...

Anyway, I decided to subscribe to this forum to keep a better eye on RED's implementation, since the people here are going to be the ones to first use the camera. I'm on the ASC Tech Committee and eventually will probably be an editor of a future edition of the ASC Manual (not the next one though), so I have to keep abreast of all of this stuff both for those reasons and my own personal work.

My background in regards to digital is mainly that out of 30 feature films that I have photographed, eight were shot on the F900, including "Jackpot", one of the first 24P HD features. However, most of my work has been in 35mm, including the recent theatrical releases "The Astronaut Farmer" and before that, "Akeelah and the Bee" (though I also had a small 24P HD feature called "The Quiet" that came and went last year.)

I'm a renter, not an owner (I have two light meters -- that's about the extent of my "kit") so I'll be curious to see how the LA rental market handles the RED camera. I know that Clairmont Cameras ordered some but I wonder about places like Plus-8 (owned by Panavision). I'm usually a Panavision renter, by the way, and half the F900 features I shot used the Panavised version with their Digital Primo zooms.

Anyway, I was impressed by the Jackson short film and how good the RED camera footage looked (and how good 4K digital projection looked -- I'd love to see some of my 35mm work projected that way!) I think the RED team just leapfrogged the digital movie camera technology and marketplace trends by a couple of years and the other companies will be playing catch-up now, which ultimately will just raise the bar and get us better products.

The reason why I said that the RED camera will shake-up the market for mid-range pro camera equipment is that's the arena that people with that range of money to spend will be looking for a good deal. I don't see the RED camera competing with the $4000 consumer HDV market, and I think that people who can afford to rent and shoot in 35mm, for example, will just see RED as another option for a particular project. And certain high-end broadcast people just want classic 60i/1080 HD cameras for live concert shoots, etc. -- they aren't interested in a film look.

But I prefer not to speculate too wildly on the long-term issues regarding RED's place in independent feature production, or even studio production. When the F900 came out in 2000, a lot of people made a lot of predictions that look pretty silly now. I remember arguing with director Bernard Rose on a Kubrick usenet group because he had just shot a feature in 1999 called "IvansXTC" in 60i/1080 HDCAM and had created a website called "Film is Dead" to promote it, making odd statements like "with digital, you don't need make-up artists because the actors can do their own make-up". And of course, the whole "you don't need to light HD" nonsense.

I think the one area where I had the biggest concern with RED was the REDCODE compression -- I come from the school of "ideally shoot uncompressed and only add compression to the deliverable formats that require it". I suppose I still believe that is the ideal scenario, but one of the lessons of this NAB is that there are some very clever compression schemes out there. My compression experience has mainly been dealing with the crappiness of HDCAM as a recording format, and all the problems of 3:1:1 colorspace and high compression when you go to color-correction. And don't get me started on DV and HDV. So I was relieved to see that the REDCODE compression scheme did not seem to affect any color-corrections of the finished project. Graeme is a genius. So now that I see that it can work, I wonder about the need for these mini-fridge-sized uncompressed data field recorders on the market.

It also seems to me that we're reaching a convergence where data storage is getting easier, cheaper, and faster so that compression schemes have to work less hard (of course, resolution is increasing, thus increasing data, etc.) So maybe IF any problems are discovered stemming from REDCODE's compression rate, maybe a future version of REDCODE will be able to take advantage of these higher capacity storage devices and thus only be half the compression rate, if that helps at all (I'm not an expert in that field so I tend to think in pretty much layman terms).

Anyway, best of luck everyone on your RED productions.

[Ace]

Welcome David!

[feb31films]

David, let me be the first to say that we welcome your input on this forum. NAB often brings out the "crazy" in people (it's big toys for big boys), but this community is pretty spectacular. The energy and camaraderie her is just amazing. And perhaps despite some ill chosen words, there are many SERIOUS shooters here and I bet most of them would be honored to give you a test drive of there RED ONE if you wanted to. This forum can only benefit from someone of your experience giving advice and asking questions. Being a director and editor, myself, I rely heavily on the input of experienced shooters. I plan to use this board to great extent when my first RED feature goes into production in October. David, I'd hire you to shoot it, if I weren't 99 percent sure that you were out of my price range! Thanks again for contributing to the discussion and the learning process and I truly hope you get an opportunity to test drive a Red camera so on.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Welcome aboard the Red train David, you are a respected and valued mentor here!

[der4]

Welcome. Thanks for joining.

[Tom Lowe]

David, it's great to have you here, and thanks so much for the run-down!

[Rick Darge]

Yeah thanks for being here David! Can't wait to hear your thoughts as time goes by.

[Poi Boy]

Thanks for the feedback David, I've always enjoyed reading your stuff.
Aloha
-A

[Manfred Lopez]

Welcome, David. By the way, what impresses me the most from your intro is that you'll be editing or contributing to a future version of 'the manual'. Wow. Maybe we'll get to read here tidbits before they make it into that edition. :biggrin:

[Corrado Silveri]

I think the one area where I had the biggest concern with RED was the REDCODE compression -- I come from the school of "ideally shoot uncompressed and only add compression to the deliverable formats that require it". I suppose I still believe that is the ideal scenario, but one of the lessons of this NAB is that there are some very clever compression schemes out there. My compression experience has mainly been dealing with the crappiness of HDCAM as a recording format, and all the problems of 3:1:1 colorspace and high compression when you go to color-correction. And don't get me started on DV and HDV. So I was relieved to see that the REDCODE compression scheme did not seem to affect any color-corrections of the finished project. Graeme is a genius. So now that I see that it can work, I wonder about the need for these mini-fridge-sized uncompressed data field recorders on the market.

Graeme, this is for you!
And I second David, thinking about the great help that your instrument will gave to all the owners of the camera.
You have just made "realistic" the workflow. Without your software products this camera will be a great piece of hardware, quiet useless...

[Poi Boy]

Graeme, don't let this go to your head but I have heard you called a genius by more people than anyone I can think of in recent times. The first time I heard it was about four years ago, it must be true. When I found out you where on board at RED is when I trully started to believe. Ok, after all that kissing up, tell me more about the magic focus.
Aloha
-A

[Alexander Nikishin]

Graeme is undoubtedly a genius, as well as a very nice guy in person.

[Mardi_Gras]

Well said, David. After reading your original article, I had no doubt in my mind that my investment in the RedOne was right on the money. Now, I just have to wait to be called so that I can begin to put it to use... hopefully with voices like yours, nearby. Thanks a bunch!

[Sam Druckerman]

Size does matter!

You guys are a little behind me on this one.....

I was at the FCPUG super meet on Wednesday and on the break, a nice guy spotted my Red reservation badge and starting asking all kinds of questions...

Well, as chance would have it... the man himself was within ear shot and stepped up to join in the discussion.

I said to the fellow as Graeme reached us..... " Here's the genius himself ".

I spoke with Graeme a few times this week and he is simply a really a nice guy with a brain the size of a water mellon.

Great to meet you Graeme.

[Roberto B]

i didn't just like to read our jarred to be.. well, you all know.. there..

that would never be allowed here.. and it was there.. i have a good memory..

[vidalsosa]

Seeing your assessment, I had only one thing in mind, share it with my community here, asap. I'm glad I did. I was sure you will visit at some point in time, and boy, was I right?

Nice to have you here, Mr. Mullen. Your endorsement as it were, is much valued (at least, I speak for myself).

[Jason Francois]

Welcome David. You are a great resource to have on the forum and when you have time to bring your knowledge and opinions (positive or negative), I for one will GREATLY welcome them.

Best,

Jason

[Andrew M.]

Dave, I knew that I will see you here sooner or latter.
Welcome!
I will miss your 9000+ post number indicator though.
I go to bed and you are still there, I wake up and you are already up and posting.
It took me some time to get subscribed to the C.com since I was thinking for long time that I am not true cinematographer, common shooting caves and underwater nature, no story-telling films (sorry tapes) is not the cinematography, is it?
Yet, I think I can contribute here at minimum my scientific approach to the gears that cinematographers use.
After all if the camera would not be invented by gigs cinematography would not be created.
Welcome again and if anything we will contribute on two opposite ends of this craft.

Andrew

[vidalsosa]

It's weird to read people talking about me...

With your very thorough and objective assessment of the Red camera, you can bet this forum will talk about you.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

good to have you hear.. I usually go to cinematography to check your writtings:)