Red Support for Adobe

[gbalaji]

Expecting Red support for Adobe?

Jim - Its weeks since you post and no update yet?

[Deanan]

We're still working out some final stubborn bugs.

[Simon Blackledge]

but you said Friday :( ;)

bring on the bugs I say! :)

s

[Deanan]

I said "Targeting Friday at the moment. We'll have another update on Friday as to where we are with that."

Since today is Friday, the update is two posts up as promised :)

[Simon Blackledge]

harsh! :-p

s

[Paul Hazlett]

chomping at the bit here.....no pressure...heheh

[Mike F.]

I'm chomping at the bit too...this couldn't have come at a better time for me.

However, I can be patient because this is a very unexpected gift, at least to me.

Thanks Red.

[Mike Harrington]

Keep up the good work....:weight_lift:

[Deanan]

I'll have another update at the end of the day.
We got through most of the bugs and are working on wrapping things up.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

i dont quite get why it is possible to edit r3d files natively in premiere and not in fcp.
just want to understand.

[Cameron Preyde]

We're still working out some final stubborn bugs.

Why are you guys working on the bugs and not Adobe? Shouldn't they be the ones working on it??

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Why are you guys working on the bugs and not Adobe? Shouldn't they be the ones working on it??

asfaik adobes sdk is free, so red can write the plug in.

[dhelmly]

Guys,

I've just finished 2 videos that show the internal beta Adobe Red Importer for CS3. The short video is about 2 minutes and shows Premiere Pro, AfterEffects, and Encore working natively with R3D files.

The Second video is shows more workflow detail and runs about 20 minutes. Please keep in mind ,that this video was originally put together for our internal use. I thought you guys would like to see it in action. PLEASE READ the blog article- it explains a lot and most important that this is early version of the plug-in.

http://blogs.adobe.com/davtechtable

[Rob Lohman]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=271694#post271694

[Mike Harrington]

adobe developers in our forums.....cool

if you look at the avid pages in our forums, the developers at avid are hugely supportive and involved.

so i would encourage you guys to dive in as well, to build confidence in the user base....call it a form of marketing. Sometimes with the bigger companies the end user seems to get overlooked.

after all Final Cut has a reputation of prestige by linking themselves with Red....and they barely support it....marketing works

[Todd Folts]

Guys,

I've just finished 2 videos that show the internal beta Adobe Red Importer for CS3. The short video is about 2 minutes and shows Premiere Pro, AfterEffects, and Encore working natively with R3D files.

The Second video is shows more workflow detail and runs about 20 minutes. Please keep in mind ,that this video was originally put together for our internal use. I thought you guys would like to see it in action. PLEASE READ the blog article- it explains a lot and most important that this is early version of the plug-in.

http://blogs.adobe.com/davtechtable

thank you very much :)

[Deanan]

As David says in his blog, this is a preview. Same goes with the first release as many things will be changing from from the first few weeks till we hit CS4.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Awwww aw aw aw.

Adobe, my darling. :)

[Frank Weeks]

This is unbelievable. It seems like Adobe and Red have made more progress in the last few weeks than Apple has in the last year. Having just spent several months learning FCP, I find myself wondering if I will be using it much longer. This is very exciting news. Great videos!!

[number6]

This is unbelievable. It seems like Adobe and Red have made more progress in the last few weeks than Apple has in the last year. Having just spent several months learning FCP...

Frank, at least now you know how to make the equivalent of Apple cider. But don't let it set in or you may only be making Apple cider vinegar:)

[Paul Hazlett]

just like the RED headed stepchild...show us love and we will love you back

Welcome ADOBE!!!! glad to see you are here!!!!

[cinepost35]

I'll have another update at the end of the day.
We got through most of the bugs and are working on wrapping things up.

Was there another update ?

[Deanan]

Getting very close. Mostly UI changes left to do.

[Frank Weeks]

Getting very close. Mostly UI changes left to do.

Time for bed on the east coast. I'll look forward to Tuesday.

[Luis Otero]

Getting very close. Mostly UI changes left to do.

Please, make this to be tomorrow, I mean today in the morning...:bleh: :love:

[Jason Ing]

Is the speed of Premiere/Red based on CPU? Or in other words, the more cpus, the merrier? I can easily upgrade my pc to a dual quad if it'll help.

[Joel Kaye]

Getting very close. Mostly UI changes left to do.

Is audio supported?

[Deanan]

Not for the first release. Audio is being worked on in parallel for SDK, RR/RC/RA/RL, Scratch, and Adobe stuff.

[Paolo Tinari]

Wow.... i wonder

[david farland]

Not for the first release. Audio is being worked on in parallel for SDK, RR/RC/RA/RL, Scratch, and Adobe stuff.

Deanan,
Are you talking weeks or months before audio is enabled?

D

[Deanan]

Less than a few weeks.

[Paul Hazlett]

are we talkin' gregorian, julian, Islamic or hebrew calendar? JK

[laguun]

are we talkin' gregorian, julian, Islamic or hebrew calendar? JK

regarding the Adobe support:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc6U7_-BeGc

[Frank Weeks]

LMAO

We should have some great things coming our way.

Very funny spot.

[Deanan]

are we talkin' gregorian, julian, Islamic or hebrew calendar? JK

Mayan

[Jason Rivera]

Mayan

Can't be any later than 2012 I suspect. :)

[Deanan]

End of calendar doesn't necessarily mean end of world. It could mean world domination of a new color :)

[Jason Rivera]

yea, that's pretty much what i was alluding to. A new RED world. I'm not worried about the end of the world or anything. That would mean only 4 years to play with my RED ONE. :unsure:

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

Posts 13 and 14 have a RED Logo and an ADOBE logo together (almost.)

How awesome is that! :biggrin:

[gbalaji]

End of calendar doesn't necessarily mean end of world. It could mean world domination of a new color :)

Can we have beta release for selected users to get feedback faster.

In that way you can speed up things.

Eagerly waiting for opening my FCP XML in After Effects and linking to R3D to export frames using AE as Conform tool.

Come on Red...

[Ash Bolland]

This is such great news !

With the files being Raw - Will we still be able to colour correct the same way we do with redcine? - curve - exposure -iso/asa etc...

Or will we have to grade in redcine and save the data to the the raw file then import that?

Also will the playback be as smooth and fast as redcine with no need to pre-render etc...

thanks.

[Frank Weeks]

Less than a few weeks.

This was the response to when audio would be added.

When will the basic video plug-in for PP be out.
I know you guys are working hard but my refresh button is exhausted.

[cinepost35]

Deenan,

Is it possible to request another update on Adobe beta plugin ?

Do you think we might see something this week?

Thanks!

[Mike Smith]

Yeah. It's not that we want to be a p.i.t.a. or in the least bit pressuring but this is such an important development that an update would be really cool. And thanks for everything you do. It's massively appreciated.

[Gian Joon]

May be RED is busy working on plug-in

[Deanan]

It's coming along very nicely now as we've found some better ways to do some things with Adobe's help.

[number6]

It's coming along very nicely now as we've found some better ways to do some things with Adobe's help.

Better is gooder!

[Mike Smith]

It's coming along very nicely now as we've found some better ways to do some things with Adobe's help.
Excellent! Thanks Deanan.

[Mike Smith]

May be RED is busy working on plug-in
No, really? Gee thanks Joon.

[cinepost35]

It's coming along very nicely now as we've found some better ways to do some things with Adobe's help.

Thanks for tthe update....Deanan can you say if we might see something before CS4 release?

I think many would be happy to beta something that still has a lot of room for improvement.

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

It's coming along very nicely now as we've found some better ways to do some things with Adobe's help.

Great news Deanan, thanks.
We all know about the changing dates and all, but still:shifty:
could you give us a hint?

[shashbugu]

yepeee yay, audio MIGHT be coming

[moik]

any news on this, any update?? will it come out for cs3 or just cs4??

[Luis Otero]

It's coming along very nicely now as we've found some better ways to do some things with Adobe's help.

Hopefully will work for CS3...:bye2:

[shashbugu]

any news please,

[Colin Hubick]

Just looking for some kind of an update on the .r3d support for AE...

[moik]

any update?

[C.K.]

Update, pleaaase!

[Gian Joon]

Any news is good news! Please Rob, Deanan. Your silence is killing us:calm: :sad:

[Deanan]

Any news is good news! Please Rob, Deanan. Your silence is killing us:calm: :sad:

No news at the moment. Getting the new QT component and a new version of the SDK out is freeing up time for work on the Adobe plugin.

[Gian Joon]

Thanks Deanan. That was quick.:umm:

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

They're probably saving the Adobe\RED integration for the launch of CS4 [+ the CS3 plugin].

[david farland]

Deanan,
Forget what I said about asking developers 'when is it ready?'

When will the Adobe plugin be ready?....the last indication we had was days/week.

Will it be launched with next two weeks or 1 month or 2 months?

answering any of these questions and you will be provided with eternal happiness plus 16 virgins....etc, etc.

No answering will ensure Jim is your boss for eternity!

Over to you....

Dave

[Mike Smith]

....the last indication we had was days/week.

Will it be launched with next two weeks or 1 month or 2 months?
Yes, we've know about this for over two months now...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16967

...which is greatly appreciated. We can plan ahead. We were getting regular updates tell us how things were going. But this recent and extended "radio silence" (seems like nothing for a month now other than yesterday's "no news" post) is killing us. It would be great to get some idea where it's at. It doesn't matter how long it takes as it's going to be worth every second. But it's been so close for so long now. Just look through this thread... very tantalizing, but the recent lack of feedback is starting to get frustrating.

[Hrvoje Simic]

They're probably saving the Adobe\RED integration for the launch of CS4 [+ the CS3 plugin].

It looks like that.

http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

This was Jim's post on july the 30th 2008

Within a week, RED R3D files will open natively in CS3 Premiere Pro and After Effects.

Jim

AND OF COURSE THIS IS HIS SIGNATURE ON THIS FORUM!!!
__________________
"Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..."

So... lets just wait patiently.

[david farland]

So... lets just wait patiently.

Wrong information is more confusing & damaging than no information and Red are being asked to remedy this and previous 'incorrect' news releases.

And don't ask me to be patient!
Dave

[Mark L. Pederson]

This was Jim's post on july the 30th 2008

Within a week, RED R3D files will open natively in CS3 Premiere Pro and After Effects.

Jim

AND OF COURSE THIS IS HIS SIGNATURE ON THIS FORUM!!!
__________________
"Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..."

So... lets just wait patiently.

He said "files will open natively" he didn't say "within a week - we'll release the plug-in"

[Deanan]

Wrong information is more confusing & damaging than no information and Red are being asked to remedy this and previous 'incorrect' news releases.

And don't ask me to be patient!
Dave

Ok, we won't ask you to be patient but please understand that we a huge number of high priority items, some visible and some not. All these impact how long it takes to get the Adobe plugin out which is also high priority.

The plugin is taking longer than anticipated for various reasons including doing major changes to get the speed up. You can hold Rob and myself responsible for the missed dates, not Jim.

[Mark L. Pederson]

It looks like that.

http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/

Hey Omen -

Great meeting you at IBC!

There's a closer public look here -

http://tv.adobe.com/#vi+f1555v1713

[david farland]

Thanks Deanan....I understand the development lifecycle well and have all respect for developers/you guys. I was just asking for a correction on the previous statements and if the answer is either we no longer know
or it's not our privilege to reveal it...that's 100% acceptable.
Dave,

[Deanan]

Thanks Deanan....I understand the development lifecycle well and have all respect for developers/you guys. I was just asking for a correction on the previous statements and if the answer is either we no longer know
or it's not our privilege to reveal it...that's 100% acceptable.
Dave,

We've often posted updates/corrections repeatedly when we thought we were closer. Based on the previous assumptions that were incorrect, the plugin turned out to be trickier than we thought. We will provide an update when we know for sure that we have a solid release date.

[ralf.luethy]

I just "time-traveled" thru this thread ... missed it completely (oops) ... very interesting to see the DATES next to each statement .....

went to an Adobe demo of CS 4 like a week ago ... asked the adobe guy about native r3d-support for AE and PR ... he hadn't even HEARD about it .....
(he was a PS/AI-specialist ...)

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

He said "files will open natively" he didn't say "within a week - we'll release the plug-in"

hahahaahahaa are you a lawyer?? Touché///:ninja:


Ok, we won't ask you to be patient but please understand that we a huge number of high priority items, some visible and some not. All these impact how long it takes to get the Adobe plugin out which is also high priority.

The plugin is taking longer than anticipated for various reasons including doing major changes to get the speed up. You can hold Rob and myself responsible for the missed dates, not Jim.

Deanan, I dont meant to held no one responsible!!
I just got carried away with Jim's announcement that within a week you guys (not us) could open the files natively. hehe Just kidding.. I know you are working your asses of in order to get everything up and running. The thing is that we are really having a lot of issues with workflow, red cine is crashing and with a lot of bugs and I think that once this plug in is available no one will use the RA or RC and that why no updates are available on either of the two sides (besides the audio update). So please don't take it personal its only that our workflow is f**k up by the fact that red cine is not in optimal condition, red alert works for some things and not others, and the scratch is ridiculously expensive. The plug in seems to be the answer for the redolution.

[laguun]

hahahaahahaa are you a lawyer?? Touché///:ninja:
So please don't take it personal its only that our workflow is f**k up by the fact that red cine is not in optimal condition, red alert works for some things and not others, and the scratch is ridiculously expensive. The plug in seems to be the answer for the redolution.

Hey, lets face it:

suboptimal performance is important to red, when it comes to post, to protect their partners.

This has been clearly stated several times here.

Once the technologically more advanced coorps (as cineform, sony, iridas, adobe etc) will be in, the allocation of the 3 software r&d headcounts at red will be hopefully allocated in a, lets say, more relaxed style.

missing in action are:

QT for windows component (>1 year delay)
redrushes for windows (>5 months delay)
redline for windows (>3 months delay)

But on the other hand - a fantatstic camera. just the missing post & workflow make these cams second choice often, no matter regarding their superior image.

[Lucas Wilson]

suboptimal performance is important to red, when it comes to post, to protect their partners.

Well, of course our custo...

...oh, never mind.

Lucas

[shashbugu]

haha that was funny Luki,

kind of like the presidential debate too much speculation from the sidelines by pundits.
look as long s assimilate is sleeping with adobe and red, we are very excited and optimistic about future workflows.

now if only red will release the beta r3d. plugin even with disabled functions and limitations we will be very happy. from what i have seen so far its very usable. they can update to new and more stable versions when cs4 is released. right now we need the plugin to pay for our red investments.

[Gian Joon]

Right now we need the plugin to pay for our red investments.

Very rightly said Shashbugu. At the moment my RED and Dell Percision 8Core system are just a paperweight. Can not do anything till the time we can see real action on timeline.

Hope it will come out soooooooooooooome day.

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

now if only red will release the beta r3d. plugin even with disabled functions and limitations we will be very happy. from what i have seen so far its very usable. they can update to new and more stable versions when cs4 is released. right now we need the plugin to pay for our red investments.

I second this.
We have worked with this kind of software and we can get used to it very easily. Its just a matter of giving us the chance, we could even help :)

[shashbugu]

and oh by the way tell Adobe we will still upgrade to cs4, almost every user has cs3 even if they are an Avid or fcp user. the are some kinds of software you just cant do without, adobe cs series products have become like microsoft office software very essential.
I have always said regardless of price, if you have ever used or seen scratch being used you will be amazed and your jaw will drop. the interface is so straight forward, makes so much sense and runs smoothly and powerfully. dont take my word for it just download redcine. Adobe made a smart choice of collaborating with them.

last thing we need to keep this thread going and get the attention of the decision makers at red, to release the beta for the R3D plug

[Gian Joon]

Adobe made a smart choice of collaborating with them.


Collaborating with whom? Red or Assimilate. It looks like from your statement that adobe is collaborating Assimilate.

[Gian Joon]

and oh by the way tell Adobe we will still upgrade to cs4, almost every user has cs3 even if they are an Avid or fcp user.

Shashbugu you have hit the nail on head. That is rumour going around everywhere. Adobe is trying to bring CS4 before plugin. Otherwise it would have been out for quite some time.:sad:

[shashbugu]

yes my friend Joon adobe is collaborating with red and assimilate, that is some really good news. I hope adobe infuses cash into both companies, they have some of the smartest minds in the digital film R&D industry. as two young companies they are well on their way to becoming leaders.

in cs5 adobe needs to beef up Bridge into a networked server type environment so multiple users can work simultaneously on different aspects of a single project using dynamic link. why do I stress this? I live in Los Angeles where we practice division of labor as opposed to waiting for a project to pass through the post pipeline we want to all work with what we have immediately, sound, picture effects etc that is the practice that has made Avid the editing platform and FCP server the new go to platform. When you look at the upcoming Cs4 and its ability to 3d render passes using lightwave rendition in photoshop, having X, y , and z channels independently in After effects, the being able to native formats like R3D in one click, then compressing to a variety of formats including online, ipod/iphones and cellphones that clearly is the future.

[Hrvoje Simic]

Hey Omen -

Great meeting you at IBC!

There's a closer public look here -

http://tv.adobe.com/#vi+f1555v1713


Great meeting you too, Mark.


No mentioning of .r3d there but we'll find out soon enough...

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

Where is that plug in!

[laguun]

Well, of course our custo...

...oh, never mind.


Lucas


bla bla, fucking straight bla.

newbies like o-h in NYC
etc will not understand what they are missing,
and will happily add $$.$$$.

Ototh, in 2010/2011, nobody will care about a "scratch" because you missed your window of oopurtunity.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

and oh by the way tell Adobe we will still upgrade to cs4, almost every user has cs3 even if they are an Avid or fcp user. the are some kinds of software you just cant do without, adobe cs series products have become like microsoft office software very essential.
I have always said regardless of price, if you have ever used or seen scratch being used you will be amazed and your jaw will drop. the interface is so straight forward, makes so much sense and runs smoothly and powerfully. dont take my word for it just download redcine. Adobe made a smart choice of collaborating with them.

last thing we need to keep this thread going and get the attention of the decision makers at red, to release the beta for the R3D plug

I am certain Scratch is a great software, but RedCine was a mistake from the start. This is the most AUTISTIC program you can think of, and it has made Red's postproduction look like a mess in front of the whole industry… for over a year.
Great damage done to everybody really, when you think how sound and easy is the concept of RSX-RedAlert-RedLine-Clipfinder, why not have Red or someone else push this concept just a little further, and I mean on both platform.
All efforts should have gone along those lines instead of f…g everything off with RedCine, if Assimilate wanted to give Red a hand, fine, but then they should do it right instead of leaving us with a crippled-unmaintained-autistic application.

Now, we were just about to get this plugin for Adobe, comes Assimilate, and we don't get our plugin'… Annoying, it may well be totally unrelated, but annoying nevertheless.

Do we really need to have Assimilate in the mix everytime, for what good in the end, if it means more delay and no serious affordable products in our hands.

I mean what good did it do the first time around, Scratch got a lot of advertizing from Red but the Red workflow only got RedCine from Assimilate, and you know what I think of it… a solid mistake.

Luki, please bear in mind I am not criticizing Scratch, a great program if you need to print back to film, but for the rest it would be better if you could keep out of it, or deliver serious affordable solutions… now.
Because you've had a looong time to work on it, longer than anybody in the industry, to what avail??
And all of a sudden you need to partner with Adobe just when they are about to deliver an outstanding and affordable solution???

This has been on my chest for a while, sorry for the rant but I don't need anymore messing around my Red workflow.:calm:

Emmanuel

[Gian Joon]

Emmanuel you are not alone in this. There are thousands of other Redusers having same feeling.

[Colin Hubick]

...so anything new to report now that Adobe released CS4?...

[Colin Hubick]

guess not

[Lucas Wilson]

Emmanuel,

Opinions on Redcine are far and wide. Some people, like you, obviously don't like it. However, a great many people use it every day and are fairly fond of it. How many people on Reduser really like the Crimson workflow? And that uses... Redcine, in a pretty robust manner.


"Now, we were just about to get this plugin for Adobe, comes Assimilate, and we don't get our plugin'… Annoying, it may well be totally unrelated, but annoying nevertheless."

It appears that me doing my job creating business relationships for Assimilate has offended your sensibility. Sorry about that.

If you really think that a company as large and powerful as Adobe is being "pushed around" by us, and that the relationship there is not completely a two-way street, then you have very little clue how business works. And if you think in any way that our relationship with Adobe has slowed down the plug-in - well - that's just insane. The RED plugin for Adobe has two partners... Adobe and RED. And we're involved in slowing that down how exactly?


"Do we really need to have Assimilate in the mix everytime, for what good in the end, if it means more delay and no serious affordable products in our hands."

The SDK is out now. Avid, Autodesk, Filmlight, DaVinci, Digital Vision, Iridas, and many others have it in their hands and have released workflows. Have any of these companies changed their pricing models? No. Have any of these offered products exclusively aimed at the RED market? No.

Assimilate did, with SCRATCH-CINE. We created a product exclusively for the RED market, and dramatically lowered the price of that product to try and make it accessible for many more people.

But of course, you ignore that, because it's not less than US$5K. You want really inexpensive tools, right? Ok, cool. Sounds like you've got your perfect workflow in RSX-RedAlert-RedLine-Clipfinder, or FCP-Crimson-REDCINE. So you're complaining about what exactly?


"Luki, please bear in mind I am not criticizing Scratch, a great program if you need to print back to film, but for the rest it would be better if you could keep out of it, or deliver serious affordable solutions… now. "

The vast majority of RED customers who are using SCRATCH and SCRATCH-CINE are using it for broadcast delivery to HDCAM-SR.

Your idea of "affordable" is a consumer mindset. Nothing wrong with that, but it is what it is. RED releases a 4K camera for US$17,500. With lenses and everything else that you need for a working kit, it's probably around US$30K, yes? And that is revolutionary.

We release a working, turnkey system that can take those files, load them instantly, conform, color correct, and output them in realtime to any SMPTE format and a wide variety of file formats. in a tunrkey package for US$35K, and that is outrageous and expensive and damaging to the market. Interesting.

Tell you what - go complain to Apple. They have not delivered the solution you want, otherwise you probably wouldn't be whining at me. Oh wait... Apple doesn't participate here and doesn't go out of their way to really try and help this community on a one-on-one basis. So you probably don't know who to complain at.


"Because you've had a looong time to work on it, longer than anybody in the industry, to what avail?? "

To the avail of a few hundred post facilities and other customers worldwide who now have reliable, realtime workflows for their RED projects.


"And all of a sudden you need to partner with Adobe just when they are about to deliver an outstanding and affordable solution???"

I'll try and clear it with you the next time I make business development decisions for my company.


This has been on my chest for a while, sorry for the rant but I don't need anymore messing around my Red workflo

Glad you got it off your chest. And it sounds like you have a workflow you're happy with. So, this accomplished what exactly?


"but then they should do it right instead of leaving us with a crippled-unmaintained-autistic application."

My son is autistic. I've never considered him crippled. You might want to be a little more careful with comments like this, or you might piss off more people than just me.

Best,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Darren Orange]

Lucas I'm with ya,

Everything you do is about relationships and building a team to do things better! Assimilate has been a key part in RED's ability to do things better! People should respect and support and be excited that there will be many more good things to come that go beyond anyones expectations. Everyone should be supporting Assimilates involvement because it will be better for all of us in the end. Just my thoughts but I'm sticking to them. Lucas has gone above and beyond, he and his company should get everyones support and respect!


P.S. Respectfully, Emmanuel, some of the things you had to say where a little out of line.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I am certain Scratch is a great software, but RedCine was a mistake from the start.

I think Lucas said what needed to be said... But I also have to jump on this very first statement.

What is it about Redcine that you don't like? IMO, Redcine is great, although still a bit rough around the edges. It's beta software still... It's my preferred tool over RED Alert in terms of actually working with and grading footage. RA + RedRushes is fine for going to ProRes / HD/ SD delivery. But Crimson is far better for really high quality output for blu-ray or film. I don't do enough of the right projects to justify SCRATCH, I'm 98% RA-> RR-> ProRes -> FCS. And Redcine with Crimson & GlueTools fills that remaining 2% very well.

[Adam Glick]

It seems to me that one of the most commonly lacking tools around here is perspective.

2 1/2 short years ago, in the time before the DALSA Origin, shooting at 4K was impossible. And even working with 4K (or even 2K) film scans was relegated to only a few of the very most high-end editing and vfx platforms. The 4K camera was $3000/day not including the kit or DITs. The software and hardware required for DI were many times more expensive.

1 1/2 years ago, before NAB 2007, most of us had never seen nor touched a RED ONE camera in person. And certainly there were no software or hardware tools ready at the time.

Every single one of us who is involved in the RED REVOLUTION in any way should always remember that we are blazing new trails with every step. We are "early adopters" in every sense of the word. And we signed up for this.

The progress that has been made in just a short time is ASTOUNDING by any measure.

I know all this is hard to keep in mind when you've promised a job to a client and you're sweating the deadline...but you have to remember that you got in line for this ride.

It's October 2008 and there are working R3D workflows and toolsets available to fit just about any needs or budget.

I'll be the first to admit it -I'm not a film maker, I'm a technologist.

But here's some basic advice I give (free of charge) that might apply (but not necessarily in this order) :

1. learn about the relevant technology
2. pick a business model and a target market that make sense
3. invest in the right tools (and people) for the job
4. set clients/partners expectations accordingly


Or I guess you don't have to...

[Evin Grant]

I think Apple is really to blame here. Including Color in FCS2 introduced an entire new segment of the industry to secondary color correction and DI. Consequently we're spoiled. You can suffer through Color if you like but realtime is no easy task, for any finishing system. There are real (time) reasons why the big boys cost real (time) money.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I'm confused,

There's a workflow for CS3 (NOT 4) out right now. It's less than $3k and offers real time editing and full color bit depth. You do have to transcode, but what's the big deal!? Set it over night and your footage is ready for editing the next morning.

I don't understand what you are complaining about. I HOPE the reason you are upset is not because you want FREE... If that's the case, there's nothing I can say to you.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I think Apple is really to blame here. Including Color in FCS2 introduced an entire new segment of the industry to secondary color correction and DI. Consequently we're spoiled. You can suffer through Color if you like but realtime is no easy task, for any finishing system. There are real (time) reasons why the big boys cost real (time) money.

gpu based software will get cheap...happened to others things too

[AntonyCASAFilms]

We are "early adopters" in every sense of the word. And we signed up for this.


I disagree to some extent.

OK, those people who signed up for cameras 1 to 1000, you could rightly regard as early adopters.

However for later cameras, people "signed up" on the basis of announcements such as "the Red plug-in for Premiere will be ready in 2 weeks".

Several months later my camera has now arrived, but the plug-in hasn't, so now I am left wondering what workflow I can use for very low-budget film work with PCs and Windows.

[number6]

I disagree to some extent.

OK, those people who signed up for cameras 1 to 1000, you could rightly regard as early adopters.

However for later cameras, people "signed up" on the basis of announcements such as "the Red plug-in for Premiere will be ready in 2 weeks".

Several months later my camera has now arrived, but the plug-in hasn't, so now I am left wondering what workflow I can use for very low-budget film work with PCs and Windows.

This says it pretty well IMO.

[Adam Glick]

However for later cameras, people "signed up" on the basis of announcements such as "the Red plug-in for Premiere will be ready in 2 weeks".



In the words of Jim - "Specifications, prices and delivery dates are subject to change. Count on it."


My bet is that the functionality of the Adobe plugin for r3d will exceed everybody's expectations when it's released.

[Steve Freebairn]

In the words of Jim - "Specifications, prices and delivery dates are subject to change. Count on it."


My bet is that the functionality of the Adobe plugin for r3d will exceed everybody's expectations when it's released.

I'm sure you're right, the one problem is though that the expectations grow as the time increases. I've read/written that with how long it's taken audio should now be included. It makes me wonder what else has been tacked onto our "hope list" while we've been waiting.

[shashbugu]

this is the wrong attitude toward assimilate. almost everyone knows assimilate is actually on the side of the revolution. you know if you don't own digibeta decks, hdsr decks, arri film scanners etc, scratch is not for you period. its a professional backend and frontend product that is considered cheap and revolutionary by all professional industry standards.

[AntonyCASAFilms]

Actually, instead of just bitching, maybe I should do something about it...

What I think would be very useful is if information was gathered together into a proper "user guide" instead of being spread all over these boards.

So if people want to email me with the current options for PC-based workflow, then I will put it together into a single document and post it here.

Please list all pros and cons of the workflows.

Does that sound like a useful idea?

[Luca Immesi]

Fcp-Crimson-Redcine-Color it's a very powerful workflow if you can handle right. I'm making the color correction of a short film of 18 minutes shot with Fabio Cianchetti the dop of "The Dreamers" by Bernardo Bertolucci and "Go go tales" by Abel Ferrara. I was able to import all the Fcp timeline into Redcine with Crimson and to export all the dpx in separate folders, if you follow carefully the instructions everything works really fine.
And Scratch is great.

[AntonyCASAFilms]

Fcp-Crimson-Redcine-Color it's a very powerful workflow if you can handle right.

Yeah, but...

Isn't this the Adobe forum?

[Luca Immesi]

Yeah, but...

Isn't this the Adobe forum?
Did you read the previous post?

[Kyle Mallory]

This thread is entertaining... and I'm becoming very cynical at the countless delays. The attitude that "things can, and will change" is getting extremely tiresome, when it's used as an excuse to delay in-demand products indefinitely. It appears that when it comes to software, a lot of concessions are being made for the benefit of RED's business partners, at the cost of RED's customers, who were also RED's earliest investors.

Someone please prove me wrong.

[Lucas Wilson]

This thread is entertaining... and I'm becoming very cynical at the countless delays. The attitude that "things can, and will change" is getting extremely tiresome, when it's used as an excuse to delay in-demand products indefinitely. It appears that when it comes to software, a lot of concessions are being made for the benefit of RED's business partners, at the cost of RED's customers, who were also RED's earliest investors.

Someone please prove me wrong.

Adam mentioned something about perspective. I think he's right. Adobe's development release cycle is about 18 months. "Indefinitely?" Please... this is moving incredibly fast for them as a company.

You can be cynical - or realistic. RED announces things much much earlier than most technology companies do. I believe they do this out of good will for their customers... letting them know what is coming. But, they've been burned enough by people slamming them for "delays" that they're much quieter now about development and giving people glimpses under the kimono. As a result, you'll hear a lot less, and consequently probably won't be as cynical.

You (and I) are spoiled by this website and the amazingly open policy that RED has about its internal workings. You want a more traditional tech company that doesn't breathe a word about stuff until it's basically ready to release? You want RED to be more like Apple in their announcement strategies? Be careful what you wish for.

From a manufaturer standpoint, it's always a balance between managing expectations and delivery. Tricky thing to do.

Lucas

[shashbugu]

people seem to forget that redalert and redcine are free, the R3d codec for Adobe is coming out free. safe to say I want the codec ASAP. But how dare you and I put pressure on a company to pay its workers overtime to give you a product for free, they do it at thier own interest.

All I have been Asking for is to give us the first beta as it existed. period

I know somone is going to say but I bought the red camera I need to be able to use the footage. Well the answer is you can. You can go to your local post house and pay for footage conversion or use the various free products availabe on Reds website.
its like telling Arri or Kodak to develop your film for free after shooting with thier product. think about it.

Its in assimilate's and our best interest that luki even comes on this site. there is a vast amount of workflow knowhow they are sharing with Adobe and red, to think less of them is apalling.

[reality]

It appears that when it comes to software, a lot of concessions are being made for the benefit of RED's business partners, at the cost of RED's customers, who were also RED's earliest investors.

Do you have inside info that Red is holding up Adobe support intentionally in favor of apple and assimilate?

[AntonyCASAFilms]

Did you read the previous post?

Read it?

I wrote it!

And I asked for PC-based workflows in the post.

Unless I am mistaken (surely not possible????) then FCP is not a PC-based workflow.

[Tom Frisch]

I think an open source user manual is a good idea. A wiki might be a good way to go, rather than placing all the work upon the shoulders of AntonyCASAFilms... but I'll kick it off with my VERY limited, and probably faulty understanding of the current state of affairs:

So current PC only workflow options:
1 Shoot R3d, transcode to Cineform 4K AVI edit in PPro w/ Cineform, output to preferred format

Pros:
VERY fast
great image quality

Cons:
need to back up your R3d AND your cineform transcodes
must transcode all footage from R3d to cineform before editing
must purchase cineform on top of adobe CS3 or 4
cineform engine replaces much of premiere pro renderer which is sometimes buggy with other plugins and media management operations (at least it has been in the past)

Questions:
How is color correction handled- are these maintaining the full color range of the original Raw redcode footage?
How does this work with after effects?
Is there a proxy/low res path for slower computers or offline/online workflow?

2 Shoot R3d, transcode to CineformExpress at faster than realtime
edit in ppro, then transcode the required files in prospect4k, and re-link.

Pros: faster than realtime transcode
fast playback

Cons: not full res
must go through offline/online conform process which doesn't sound that straight forward
see cons for traditional CF workflow

Questions: same as above.


3) Adobe CS4 native R3D support- import R3d files to Ppro or AE, edit, export.

Pros: no extra software to buy
looks simple
great interoperability with AE and Encore
simple down-res for playback on laptops
no transcoding required

Cons:
I don't see audio support
plugin development seems to be stalled, no official release date
playback performance of higher res footage is an unknown
changing resolutions requires re-opening of the project

Questions:
How do you open a clip to set ins/outs in Ppro? Since double-clicking in the project view now opens up the importer dialogue- unlike any other footage behavior.

How does color correction work in this workflow?

Thats what I got so far.

[David Taylor]

Tom, with all due respect, regarding your Cons comments about the CineForm workflow:

1) If there are bugs, please report them. Non-specific comments of "it's buggy" a) aren't helpful to us for fixing them - most people know us as responsive; and b) such comments, without specificity, can be misleading to others.

2) There is no conform process for CineForm Express files, and generally couldn't be easier. I don't think you've done your research very thoroughly. Switching between Express files and full-res CineForm Master files takes seconds: a) you unlink your Express files, and b) you relink the project to full-res CineForm media. All Active Metadata, transitions, effects, etc remain in place with no conform required.

Please view the tutorial video prepared by Chris Harvey that summarizes the Prospect 4K workflow for Red One in PPro/Win: http://205.234.135.241/forum/showthread.php?t=21171

[Tom Frisch]

Thanks for pointing those out David.

As I said, I have limited and probably faulty knowledge of these things.

1) I guess I'm basing my "it's been buggy for me in the past" on my experiences with AspectHD for Ppro 2 w/ DVCProHD MXF files. I was never able to get the project manager tool to properly trim an aspect project- this could have been adobe's fault as well, I never solved the problem. But I'm now able to use this tool with native dvcprohd projects, (at least until they get to be too complex- then it just gets buggy in general). I'm sure it's different now than it was then, both from Cineform and Adobe's software updates.

2) That's good news, I will watch the video.

This is why I think a wiki would be a good way of managing an opensource workflow user-guide. Where people like me might drop in the random un-specific rant about bugginess, another user like David could correct and update with newer, more accurate information.

[AntonyCASAFilms]

tomk358, a brilliant idea.

So here it is.... http://red-workflow.wikispot.org/Front_Page

I have incorporated some of your posting, but as I have no idea what CineForm Express is or how to use it, I will let you edit the wiki to provide more details....

I have added a stub for Mac workflow too, but as I will not be using a Mac, I will leave other people to add to that page.

Thanks,
Antony

[Sam Roberts]

Just to get in clear in my mind.....All the other workflows have audio except F-DPX Files?

[Meryem Ersoz]

I haven't seen anyone post this, and I'm not sure how up to date it is, but hey! At least it is on-topic:sarcasm:

http://www.studiodaily.com/main/training/10132.html

To move off-topic again - it is really this simple - RED's commitment is to putting its best foot forward the first time. That is why we love this company. That is the heart of "making obsolescence obsolete."

RedCine was/is crippleware. You can say that we should be "grateful" because it's free all you want, but the fact of the matter is, its release and lackluster updating process is one of the gestures which is least consistent with RED's commitment and most aligned with the philosophy of protectionism that RED is supposed to be busting.

The only reason that we have a viable workflow at all, that we can sell to clients, is because they also had the good sense (or the grace) to release Redline, effectively giving a set of keys to the users as well, and we have benefited from all the add-ons -- and each of these add-ons is something that could pretty easily have been integrated into the original program, either in the first place, or else through an upgrade process. Think how different this entire conversation would be, if the post- software upgrades moved along as efficiently as the firmware upgrades do...we would be so happy.:biggrin:

As it is, the existing workflow is a hack of multiple programs, unless you pay up for a program that costs as much or more than the camera itself. And my gratitude is towards guys like Hans and Ian, who saved the post-program program -- a save that was incidental, not integral.

I only wish that the post workflow reflected as well on RED as the cameras. That is what I would have called a successfull program. Hopefully, we'll get there soon.

[David Newman]

tomk358, a brilliant idea.

So here it is.... http://red-workflow.wikispot.org/Front_Page

I have incorporated some of your posting, but as I have no idea what CineForm Express is or how to use it, I will let you edit the wiki to provide more details....

Thanks,
Antony

Thanks Anthony, I added some more details and corrections. The CineForm Express file color accurate "Mini Me" versions of CineForm RAW 4K, 444 or 422 HD files. They are 1K versions of all your sources (no matter their resolution) with a low datarate between 2-3MB/s. The Express files share the same color database entry as the online files so you can perform Active Metadata corrections (whitebalance, curves, gamma, color matrix and 3DLUT changes) and have them automatically applied to master files (as non-destructive metadata) when there are created. They are the fastest way to edit R3D sources, with with minimal overhead in their creation and movement over networks.

[Jonas Rejman]

@tomk358 , @ AntonyCASAFilms

Would you guys mind to check out my page I am just building?:
http://www.jonasrejman.com/webpage_purplemagazine/

I started it for the EXACT SAME REASON as you guys started the wiki. To have one centrum of all the infos about red. Mostly as a links directory. It was initially a research of mine, that I needed to access so often, that I put it online. It should remain a non-registration non-suscription page. OpenSource, maybe later with some adds.


I will link to this post anyway, but I wonder If you guys would be willing to become editors of this page as well, and eventually even move to it from your wiki?

PM me please, what you think of it, I will gladly create you useraccounts.

[AntonyCASAFilms]

Just to get in clear in my mind.....All the other workflows have audio except F-DPX Files?

A very good question.

Does anyone know for sure?