Shooting RED for docco in Africa? Crazy?

[thornben]

Hi Everybody,

I may be going to Sudan to assist/shoot on a documentary for BBC Panorama (hdtv, 42-44 mins approx). I have used the RED a lot on location and in studio, I know what it can do and I have the workflow down pat. Personally I have never had a camera body die on me but I have heard of it, so I guess I just want some very honest opinions to the following question:

Is taking a RED for this job crazy and too risky? I know I will need multiple cables and mega amounts of batteries, but what I want to hear from is people who have done it before, what they encountered.

We would be renting the entire kit from London and shipping it over. Lens-wise I would probably take a lightweight/handheld zoom and a longer one. Preferably an Optimo 15-40 and a 24-290. I have used the small RED zoom too, so if we are low on $$$ taking the 18-50 and the 50-150mm could be an option. I would also fight to bring a spare RED body along as well, just in case.

Anyway thanks for your time, I have tried searching about this in the forums already and haven't found the info I needed, but apologies if this has already been asked and answered.

Benjamin Rood

[James T Mather]

I brought a RED to Kericho in Kenya right after the troubles. Carried it by hand on the plane with the 18-50 and 50-150 - no troubles at all. Plugs are standard UK 3 pin over there.

[Peter Majtan]

I know You have this probably sorted out already, but one word keeps popping to my mind when I read about projects like this:

Insurance...

- make sure it covers You in the specific country (some don't cover "acts of war / terrorism", or specific countries)
- make sure it covers not only the equipment, but also the footage (the insurance will cover the cost of going back and reshoot...)
- read the small print... :)

[M_Sanderson]

do you have any examples of insurance companies that do do it?

[rodrigo@honeypictures.com]

try aon..... they sorted me out

[Rob Gardner]

I really wish people would stop calling documentaries "docco's". I guess this is a British term, or something, but for the love of god, can we have no dignity left in our profession, eaten by reality television, degraded by amateurs willing to make television shows with handy cams for nothing, financialy squeezed by cable system that keep fragmenting.

And then they start calling them "doccos".

Sigh...

You might try Reiff and Associates, 57th street in New York for production insurance for documentaries. They cover everything we do.
Rob Gardner, (internationally acclaimed docco producer...)

[James T Mather]

Do they do doccos, ducudramas and documedys?

[M_Sanderson]

if i must shorten, documentary i prefer DOC, than docco, doco.
What about mockumentaries?

Ill be taking my red to some dodgy places so the insurance company examples is very useful cheers guys!

[Dylan Macleod, CSC]

We did a doc in Africa not too long ago. We brought an extra body. Never used it, but I slept well!

Your lens choices look pretty "heavy" for a doc. With that kind of a lens (OPTIMO 24-290) you are automatically in to a large head, heavy duty stix...this translates in to more labour in the camera department and longer set up time.

I'd consider a lightweight zoom. The 15.5-45 is great at the wide end. How much "long lens" stuff are you doing? Can you go primes for your "longer" lens work?

Dylan Macleod
Cinematographer
Toronto, Canada
www.dylanmacleod.com

[Ramesh Jai]

I would also rather take an extra RED body along. Even if I am insured I'd rather not go back for a re-shoot.

I prefer 'docus' to 'doccos' if we must shorten it at all. I had not heard of 'doccos' before this thread.

[Dane Brehm]

Heat test the camera in 90+ degree heat in Direct Sun for an hour and take an extra body. It's hit or miss with these camera's. I had a 2 Camera audi commercial were A-cam went down in 90 degree heat but B cam was fine. Remember the Red is a powerhog so take lots of Batteries.

[Steve Sherrick]

Go with the wide zoom
Bring three additional primes with you. 85, 135, and a 300
Go with the lightest sticks you can safely use with the camera
If possible, go with a LW matte box.
Have enough power to last you two days without charging
Have backup system in place for media. If lots of on the go, maybe several Hyperdrives or Nextos.
If you use the Red drive, get the ET drive mount.
Have a dual battery plate so you can swap out battery without powering down
Don't use phantom power mic directly into the camera unless you have followed the instructions on how to do the workaround. Otherwise go with battery powerd mics or a small mixer if you can manage the weight
Do have a good handheld rig. I've had the camera on my shoulder for 10 hours and without the proper rig, you will be hurting after a couple of straight days of doing this.
Insurance needs to cover world travel and you should have the full coverage.

[Johnny Friday]

shot in Botswanna and S.Africa. We used two reds and 18-50's + 25-250. Found that we still needed a tighter lens. After our trip, we all agreed we should have had the Cannon 150-600 lens. But if you are shooting wildlife as we were, 250mm zoom did not cut it. We thought we needed at least 400-500mm.

Carried all camera bodies and EVF's/LCD's on the plane with us and rest of gear in luggage. No problems with customs till USA. But do know that S. African customs agents work on commission for what they can get out of you....so what's your story?? or bring all the proper paperwork--which i have found you NEVER have everything.

[Dylan Macleod, CSC]

Go with the wide zoom
Bring three additional primes with you. 85, 135, and a 300
Go with the lightest sticks you can safely use with the camera
If possible, go with a LW matte box.
Have enough power to last you two days without charging
Have backup system in place for media. If lots of on the go, maybe several Hyperdrives or Nextos.
If you use the Red drive, get the ET drive mount.
Have a dual battery plate so you can swap out battery without powering down
Don't use phantom power mic directly into the camera unless you have followed the instructions on how to do the workaround. Otherwise go with battery powerd mics or a small mixer if you can manage the weight
Do have a good handheld rig. I've had the camera on my shoulder for 10 hours and without the proper rig, you will be hurting after a couple of straight days of doing this.
Insurance needs to cover world travel and you should have the full coverage.

Bang on!

That is almost exactly the package we had in Africa. 15.5-45, 75,100,135,300. We also supplemented wide with 14mm & 12mm.

I think we even had a 2x extender...only worked on the 300mm though.

Be careful if you go clip on. I found I was stacking filters...pola, ND, grads, etc.

Dylan Macleod
Cinematographer
Toronto, Canada
www.dylanmacleod.com

[Peter Majtan]

do you have any examples of insurance companies that do do it?

I also recommend AON:

http://www.entertainmentandmedia.aon.co.uk/

I have used them back in Australia. They even sorted out my key-person and other "special" insurance requirement. They seems to specialize in our industry and offer complete range of services...

:) Peter

[Peter Majtan]

I really wish people would stop calling documentaries "docco's". I guess this is a British term, or something, but for the love of god, can we have no dignity left in our profession, eaten by reality television, degraded by amateurs willing to make television shows with handy cams for nothing, financialy squeezed by cable system that keep fragmenting.

And then they start calling them "doccos".

Sigh...

It's funny that You pick on "docco's" and then in the same sentence You say "handy cams"...

If You meant "Handycam", which is a Sony brand used to market its camcorder range - You should have said so...

Otherwise You should have used "cameras" instead of "cam"...

In any case I have done few docos myself (three of which made it to NGC and got me the membership from 1999) and I rarely hear anyone referring to it with the full word "documentary". Less so anyone actually getting offended when someone uses any of the shorter versions...

You would have to revise 75% of our (industry) vocabulary if You went in that direction. I do docos and I am indie too - and I am proud of it...

:) Peter

[thornben]

Wow thank you so much everyone for your replies. Very very helpful.

Just in reply to some of your questions...

re: Lenses - Yes the 24-290 optimo is big, but it's not as big as a 150-600mm Canon! And it is a far faster, and much more beautiful. I can whack a 2X extender on it too. I am in lust with it after having used it on a Nissan TVC (shooting B Camera) last week also on the RED on location. Why so overkill on the glass? Well, the director has a very very good eye, one of the best in the world, and we both love great pictures, and if I am working with him I want to know I am going to be able to give him something beautiful. Even though it is for TV I know his style, he tells the story with images not just talking heads. If it was practical he would have every bit of kit imaginable on the shoot. His other documentary work has been on 35mm and 16mm. He wants High legs, Low Legs, and a Hi-Hat, to give you an idea. I will be going with an O'Connor head, maybe the 2060HD. I will test it, but has anyone tried the 2060HD? I have used the 2575 with the Optimo and also a big Hawk 150-450 with a 2X extender on the long end and absolutely love it.

I appreciate the suggestions of the primes. I just love good zooms though, but we will see about the $$$ I guess. Once you get the lens on there with the mattebox you can leave it on for quite a while, snap it off the legs and carry it on your lap on the car. You can't really beat the Optimo. If it's good enough for Dion Beebe... I hate missing a moment because I have to change kit.

re: "docco" - my apologies, it is very lazy. Actually I am in New Zealand right now and we use far too much horrible slang here as well.

re: matteboxes - I would take two I think, an MB-14 for a big zoom if I take it and a clip on like an LMB-5. Stacking filters... urgh... I would rather grad it in post especially as you can track it. Just gimmie a LMB-5 with a 138 Pola in the back and ND's. Do the rest in the grade. Good lenses like the Optimo look great at any stop I think so I am happy to stop down.

re: insurance - not my bag thankfully. But I imagine if the broker knows what they are doing they might insist on a second body. Fortunately the Director/Producer has done lots of international work and has shot I think in every continent except antarctica - the insurance policy will be very good.

re: audio recording - I would insist on simultaneously going to HDD or minidisc as well.

re: batteries - I am thinking at least 10? Two days straight without charging though... that is probably smart, so it would need to be more like 16 batteries. Crap, that is a lot.

re: RED DRIVE ET drive mount. I have heard people mention them in these forums but I cannot find anything online. I have used the drives several times, prefer them to the cards as long as you are not doing anything that is going to make them drop frames.

re: dual battery plate - YES INDEED.

re: handheld - I will test and make up a rig that is right for me. I have used the shoulder dovetail plate with the red and that seems to work pretty good but then I have always had someone to hand the camera off to in-between shots.

re: data backup - Steve you are very right. I will be dealing with it myself, but that is okay as I have lots of experience managing RED data. I will look into the models you suggested, thank you.

This is exactly the kind of info I am after. Thanks everyone again for your help.

The alternative for this shoot is an EX-1 (no comparison I know), but we will see what happens. I personally don't hate HD, but I think if you are going to shoot a camera like that, you need to embrace it's look and not pretend, whereas the RED has a a lot more magic to it.

[Tom Lowe]

My concern would be the heat. What temps are expected?

Why not shoot RED and bring a Sony EX3 as backup? It has interchangeable lenses, and the 1080p footage holds up very well pixel for pixel. We just shot with a brand-new EX3 in 110-degree heat for a few days here in Arizona, and the footage was absolutely beautiful. The data is easy to manage and the batteries are simple. The EX3 blows the EX1 out of the water.

Good luck, man. This sounds like an awesome shoot. What is the subject matter, if you don't mind my asking?

[thornben]

Hi Tom,

Yes, taking an EX as well was my initial idea...

Have not used the EX3, but from what I saw on Sony's website it just seemed like a shoulder mounted EX1. The compression/data rate doesn't seem to be improved. I wasn't sure if it could take B4 lenses but I guess if it can then you can chuck something nice on, like a small Fujinon but no autofocus which is the advantage of using a Sony...

And at that point you might as well take a spare RED body as it will be a cheaper rental than getting another kit altogether and look way better. And you can use the spare body as a B camera anyway (using low legs or hi-hat on one, tall legs on the other - and if we are getting two matteboxes anyway...). You could also build the cameras so that one always was in lightweight mode with a short zoom on, losing the handles and shoulder pad to quickly chuck it on legs if needed. That way the other camera could be ready to whack the bigger stuff on, or even travel in a vehicle with the zoom and big mattebox on (someone holding it, of course).

In fact, that sounds like a pretty smart way to go I think. It just means we need more batteries for safety and extra filters (but that isn't expensive). That way also if one camera dies you have the other, and if you can afford to get another one sent out then you can and not stop shooting. The shoot will be about 3-weeks to a month max, so it would be worth having the option.

Has anyone used solar panels to power up the RED battery station/charger?

Also, what is the ET drive mount?

Thanks again!

[thornben]

Oh, and you need another head though I guess, which is a pain and costs a bit. But maybe you could get away with a Sachtler Video 18 for the lightweight camera... the guy we usually use in NZ for rentals as he has the best kit and best demeanor, Scott (aka Rocketeer) said that would be the smallest he would go. And he's always pretty cautious when it comes to me and my crazy ideas. Feel free to weigh in Scott if you are lurking.

Ben

[Jason Wingrove]

Dylan has kindly discussed shooting his doco in depth for the next episode of the REDCentre podcast.. hopefully out in about a week

(thanks again Dylan)

Jason

_

[thornben]

The other question is what are the best RED rental houses in London I guess...

[Steve G]

Word of advice when working for bbc directly. They will not insure your kit. If you are working through a production company, they will have to get their own insurance, otherwise you will have to cover the insurance yourself. They never insure kit on shoots, unless it is a category 1 war zone.........

[Mike Harrington]

I may be going to Sudan to assist/shoot on a documentary for BBC Panorama

i as well....should be sometime this winter.(as well as guatemala and nicaragua.....not for BBC mind you)
my biggest concern was security....

i have to come up with a strategy for backing up data/and using a courier to get a copy out of the country ect
we also were looking as an EX for b-roll, and if the Red dies or is stolen....a complete backup

I heard of some guys filming in south america that had some experiences getting robbed by the local rebels....so the next time they went they took a pickup with a canopy over it and inside the truck bed they poured diesel and milk and let it all rot and stink up....they did get robbed again i gather but when they opened that back it was so disgusting that they left all the equipement alone.