Status update & request for feedback

[Rob Lohman]

You've all been waiting on this for a while now so here's a status update on Adobe importer.


What does it do:
-----------------------------------------
See the following thread for a video introduction: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17782

The importer allows you to load R3D files in all resolutions, framerates and camera firmware builds up to at least build 17 (unreleased as of yet).

It will decode into 8 or 32-bit depending on your settings in Premiere and After Effects.

It will be available out of the gate for both Mac & Windows


What does it not do [yet]:
-----------------------------------------
The big thing missing is audio. I know everyone wants it but it will not be in this first preview (and we are labeling it as a preview for you to look at and provide feedback on where we should go in your opinion).

It will come really soon however, it is the big thing on our list after this release for all our products, not just the Adobe importer.


Focus for the next release(s):
-----------------------------------------
Audio, performance enhancements and deeper integration with Premiere & After Effects (especially for CS4).


When is the preview coming out
-----------------------------------------
In the next couple of days. RED and our alpha testers have identified some critical bugs (Premiere hanging and images decoding wrong) that need to be fixed before we can give it to you. We are so very close but these last couple of problems are determinant to keep me up at night. We want to get it out as bad as you do!


A workflow question for you
-----------------------------------------
A RED ONE clip can consist of multiple R3D files. Normally we load the full clip (all associated R3D files) when you the user select one of the R3D files. This removes the burden of having to select everything in the right order.

Unfortunately this system causes some challenges in CS3 (we're working on solutions for CS4!) and we'd like to get your feedback on how you think the import should work.

Importing footage in Premiere can be done in two ways:

1) importing a single file. In this case you would like to import all the R3D files belonging to the clip

2) importing a folder. In this case you want to import the clip just once. Premiere, however, sees all R3D files and asks us to import each one of them. Unfortunately we cannot detect this and switch of the loading of the full clip for each R3D. This would result in the clip showing up X times (where X is the number of R3D files in the folder).

So we have two options to proceed. Keep the full clip loading in which eases the single clip loading. This creates more work if you're importing a whole bunch of footage since you might get duplicate clips (on long clips) which you will have to manually remove.

Or we can disable the full clip loading and always load a single R3D file. In this case you probably want to stick with always importing a folder to make sure you get all the R3D's belonging to a clip.

Please provide us with your thoughts on the subject.


Thank you all for your patience on this. We know it's been promised for a while now and we're working hard on squishing these last bugs and get you the best workflow possible now and in the future!

[SalaTar]

Rob,
Edited, afx'ed and titled.
Now I want to render back to r3d....

[Obin Olson]

We need to focus on getting split files into premiere as just that, split files so that we don't have weird pointers floating around that would allow for mistakes. Example: If one part of a clip is corrupt we would rather have 1/2 the take then nothing at all......

[Edgar Pitts]

I second what Obin said. IMHO the weakest link of Premiere CS3 is how it deals with subclips and multicam. There can be problems conforming from Premiere to After Effects.

The more straight forward the file and import system (even it causes more upfront work), the less headaches down the road.

Edgar

[Obin Olson]

can premiere look in sub folders for footage when importing
an entire folder? Its a real pain the way red records each new
take in a new folder - we need a way to batch import all footage
that's easy and quick.

[Obin Olson]

Rob after audio I think the highest priority are some standards
based presets for red like 720p 1080p 480p etc the weird framesizes
are just that, weird. For example I never really know what's pixel
accurate because if your off standard sizes.

What's really needed is a way for you to scale say 1024 to 1280x720 so
we can stay with standards, this will make it easer to work with hdsdi boards etc I think.

[Obin Olson]

And on a new note following audio and some standard presets
some native support for HD boards would really rock so we can get
our decklink etc working for hd edit output for monitor. Everyone in a studio
is using a 3rd screen - plasma - LCD etc for playback, we need an 'online' image playback device connection - I am a little afraid of consumer graphics cards and would rather have some standards to go by- hdsdi comes to mind or atleast 4:4:4 hdmi.

This brings me to sync, one thing that hdsdi can do is make sure your audio and picture are synced properly upon scrub and play. Very important for critical work.

One other area some type of standards based output is going to be needed is
color. We need a way to get away from the low contrast LCD screens we are all working on and have playback on a professional device - projector - plasma etc so we can judge our work on a display that's calibrated and very accurate.

Somthing hopefully higher then 8bit per channel.

[John Tissavary]

Rob after audio I think the highest priority are some standards
based presets for red like 720p 1080p 480p etc the weird framesizes
are just that, weird. For example I never really know what's pixel
accurate because if your off standard sizes.

What's really needed is a way for you to scale say 1024 to 1280x720 so
we can stay with standards, this will make it easer to work with hdsdi boards etc I think.


Presets are wonderful, but there's nothing like knowing how to 'roll your own'...


If you're confused about scaling, here's a simple formula: target width / source width = scale factor

In your quoted case the simple calculation is: 1280 / 2048 = .625
Just scale your source material by .625 and you'll be at 720p.

It's just as easy with 1080p: 1980 / 2048 = .9668
Multiply 2048 by .9668 and the keys to the 1080p universe are yours.



cheers,

John T.

[Mike Zinner]

Strong vote to treat each .r3d file as single clip.

If you cannot do the automatic multipart selection flawlessly, leave it out - it just causes confusion otherwise. Especially since it is quite logical that one has to select each .r3d file he sees in a directory.

Well, I even say treating each .r3d as single clip has advantages. I've been cutting some single-take interviews which consisted of 3-4 .r3d files (converted to Cineform .avis) and most of the time I would only import selected files and was able to delete the useless files to save space for archiving.

So, to avoid all the future complain-postings, please the multi-part import out.

Thanks!

[Mike Zinner]

Another workflow question. I wonder why it is necessary to select a fixed "scale-down" factor for each RED clip resolution.

I am sure you have analyzed the Cineform approach which is much more straight forward in this regard: It always leaves the original clip resolution in place and only adjusts the de-bayer resolution based on the CPU load in realtime. And when you stop the playback, it decodes the frame with full resolution.

This approach does not require to manually change any values and restart the application in order to perform the final output render in full resolution. And still provides 4K quality for the current frame to apply color correction & effects.

I guess this is a limitation of the Pr CS3 API? And the reason Cineform replaces the complete Pr CS3 rendering engine?

A comment on this would be nice :)

Thanks again!

[Obin Olson]

Not looking for the 'keys to the universe' here - what I am looking for are 'formats' free of low quality scaling and long render times done inside the premiere interface.


Presets are wonderful, but there's nothing like knowing how to 'roll your own'...


If you're confused about scaling, here's a simple formula: target width / source width = scale factor

In your quoted case the simple calculation is: 1280 / 2048 = .625
Just scale your source material by .625 and you'll be at 720p.

It's just as easy with 1080p: 1980 / 2048 = .9668
Multiply 2048 by .9668 and the keys to the 1080p universe are yours.



cheers,

John T.

[Obin Olson]

let red debayer and scale in realtime into a standard format without dropping frames and I think we will have far less problems with things like going out to a standards based display like a 720p plasma etc for preview, having premiere do this work on top of all the other things its already doing in realtime seems like a bad idea for a smooth workflow

[Rob Lohman]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Mike: understood. We aren't at that level yet. As indicated we're working on much deeper integration. This is just the first step!

[Obin Olson]

first steps are fantastic, I would be very very careful how deep you go, I would hate to loose stability and user interface speed that we have now in premiere!

a "render codec" would be very nice though!

[Jason Rivera]

Another workflow question. I wonder why it is necessary to select a fixed "scale-down" factor for each RED clip resolution.

I am sure you have analyzed the Cineform approach which is much more straight forward in this regard: It always leaves the original clip resolution in place and only adjusts the de-bayer resolution based on the CPU load in realtime. And when you stop the playback, it decodes the frame with full resolution.

This approach does not require to manually change any values and restart the application in order to perform the final output render in full resolution. And still provides 4K quality for the current frame to apply color correction & effects.

I guess this is a limitation of the Pr CS3 API? And the reason Cineform replaces the complete Pr CS3 rendering engine?

A comment on this would be nice :)

Thanks again!

I would love input on the pros and cons of this process as well and whether or not it's do-able. This way you don't have to constantly change the "working resolution" to full res just to preview your CC tweaks and effects as Mike stated...similar to what Ae does, i would guess.

[Steve Freebairn]

I think that you should be able to import a master folder that contains all the red folders and have it import 1 clip per R3D, so that if you have 12 R3D files for 1 clip, then it will have 12 files for that one clip, that would give us the ability to get rid of several GB chunks that we don't want. It also lets us use the first part of a corrupted clip if they recorded long enough. Later you can work on having it stitch the clips together on a bulk import.

I think that even if you get the stitching to work, that you should make it so that you can import just 1 part of an R3D file if there are multiple parts and the last file is corrupt.

I'm also very much for a widget/gadget that lets you change what proxy resolutions you are using, the suggestion to use Adobe Air is a great one, then it's cross platform immediately.

[John Tissavary]

Not looking for the 'keys to the universe' here - what I am looking for are 'formats' free of low quality scaling and long render times done inside the premiere interface.


The whole idea of the Premiere workflow is that it is resolution independent...
But I doubt render times are going to be any better there than with existing software. At some point the debayer must be done at a resolution that jibes with the desired quality of the finished product.

As to render times and scaling quality? Seems to me that's more up to Adobe than anyone else. Their software is scaling & rendering, so I'm not sure how you see this as a Red development responsibility.



cheers,

JT

[Obin Olson]

Red needs to provide realtime output in standards formats like 720 and 1080 and 2k etc... all I am saying...

[Shane Betts]

Theoretically, one should be able to set globals in PP to, say, 1/4 and Globals in AE to full and work that way all day, so long as you remember to reset on restarts. So you have edit speed in PP and resolution in AE.

Or would that make the apps run flaky?

You could even make an Automator script to open the apps and reset globals and use that as an alias to the apps themselves..

[Shane Betts]

Also, is it possible to tell the camera not to make proxies? When your workflow is RAW end to end, the proxies aren't needed and so batch importing folders would be one step simpler.

[Obin Olson]

yes you can disable proxy generation, it even saves time after you stop a record!

[Steve Freebairn]

Can we have an update today of the new timeframe of when the plugin might be out? I'm sure it's frustrating to hear "are we there yet" 1000 times a day, but it would help if we knew how long the trip was going to be.

[Obin Olson]

when the finish line is crossed :) :)

A little bird tells me soon though

[Marc Jonkers]

Once again, we are almost a week later.
Any update ?

[Obin Olson]

in good time, in good time. :)

[shashbugu]

its taken so long you might as well throw in the audio

[shashbugu]

the audio issue is a very serious one, Red needs to figure this out ASAP

[Gian Joon]

Someday it will say "Download in Support section". Let's hope soon.

[Gian Joon]

Any update?

[Deanan]

Any update?

Sorry it's taking so long. We're working on some major changes to upgrade the performance to a much better level. We're there once we're done with these changes.

[Steve Freebairn]

Sorry it's taking so long. We're working on some major changes to upgrade the performance to a much better level. We're there once we're done with these changes.

Can you give a rough estimate of how long you think those changes will take?

[Craig Bowman]

Don't submit to the nagging. Take all the time you need. Do it right. We're ready to wait until its done even if it takes clear until tomorrow afternoon!

[Steve Freebairn]

Don't submit to the nagging. Take all the time you need. Do it right. We're ready to wait until its done even if it takes clear until tomorrow afternoon!

that's pretty funny :)

[Frank Weeks]

Don't submit to the nagging. Take all the time you need

Hell yea...take until Thursday if needed.

[Gunleik Groven]

I would LOVE to see some realtime playing out over SDI here @ IBC @ 1080/2k :)

[Alex Carr]

I think the R3d files should be imported as a whole, and there should be a preference to import multiple R3d as single files. That makes the most sense, and possibly fix the bugs of importing x clips per R3d file in a folder.

I'm thinking of when clips are not too long or don't have issues. This should work like every other program, we should have the option to turn it off, simple as that.

[conrad gaunt]

I haven't used Premiere for a couple of years, but did for many. In the past it was unable to import more than 1000 images from a folder. Even then, if you dragged the bin onto the timeline, only the first 500 images would actually appear (after a long wait). Don't think this will be an issue for R3D injest, but not sure if this annoying behaviour is fixed in newer versions, I expect it is. You could select the other 500 frames by going in the bin and selecting the second half of the sequence, but 500 was the maximum dag and drop number. Anyway, it stopped me trusting Premiere to "get everything" in the past, so I would break up the injest of footage accordingly, and use virtualdub to pre-stitch image sequences into AVIs (which 6.5/first Pro.version couldn't), and always double check imports. I'd still be interested to know how Premiere handles large folders/many files nowadays as I'm not current anymore. In my opinion, single import should be a preference option, or a tick box in the import dialog. Definately both options should be there I think.

[laguun]

In the past it was unable to import more than 1000 images from a folder. Even then, if you dragged the bin onto the timeline, only the first 500 images would actually appear (after a long wait). Don't think this will be an issue for R3D injest, but not sure if this annoying behaviour is fixed in newer versions, I expect it is.
We have completed several 4K full resolution single frame projects with adobe CS3, and that behaviour is gone.

We have been using premiere as a side tool to our discreet/avid/sony tools from 1.0 to 5.5 (on mac, sgi, windows), stopped using it a restartet with first experiments with CS1, and CS3 is really looking excellent meanwhile (besides not being 64bit and still suffocating on extremly large projects).

Its amusing to see people change from the $$$.$$$ discreet boxes to the $$.$$$ and $.$$$ adobe CS workstations back and forth all the time. The FCPs also are used as offline feeders for the 4K Premieres...

regarding the delivery - "it should be ready *any friday* soon" has become the running joke around here as everbody is _really_ looking forward for your interface :)

[Gian Joon]

I got an 8 core PC almost two weeks back. But I can not edit any R3D on this for now. Waiting desperately for plug-in?

[Obin Olson]

Sorry it's taking so long. We're working on some major changes to upgrade the performance to a much better level. We're there once we're done with these changes.


Nice work Rob !
that and audio is all we need :)

[rayzn1123]

I'm hoping and praying the Adobe support is released before my 15 day trial of CineForm runs up.

:innocent:

[Jay A. Kelley]

Why? Trying to keep things free?

I have a feeling your in for a dissappointment... Pull out that credit card brother... Cross over to the dark side!!

:w00t:

[rayzn1123]

I have that same feeling. Guess I better hurry up and apply for that no-limit Discover.

:help:

[Ed Watkins]

When is the Adobe importer out?
Or, if it is out already, where can it be downloaded from... sorry for my lack of knowledge I've been out of the loop for a week or so.

[Jay A. Kelley]

The importer is not out. And there is currently NO release schedule. As of this moment, the adobe people are using the Cineform Workflow for Premiere.

I was helping out on this, but they have pulled it back to the drawing board.

My guess is that they were not wild about the direction it was going and decided to really pull it in and make it a much better system / workflow.

So that's where we are at this time.

You have apple support from RED.
You have Apple and Adobe support from Cineform.
I am not sure where Avid is right now.. Will check

Jay

[Steve Freebairn]

The importer is not out. And there is currently NO release schedule. As of this moment, the adobe people are using the Cineform Workflow for Premiere.

I was helping out on this, but they have pulled it back to the drawing board.

My guess is that they were not wild about the direction it was going and decided to really pull it in and make it a much better system / workflow.

So that's where we are at this time.

You have apple support from RED.
You have Apple and Adobe support from Cineform.
I am not sure where Avid is right now.. Will check

Jay

How do you know? Seems like you would have had to sign an NDA if you really new inside info.

So you're saying that Adobe internal is using Cineform for R3d files?

[different mike]

CRAP! can't they make it so adobe recognizes the quicktimes for the larger formats as well as the proxy size as well??? for most people that would make life a LOT easier... I want to cry.

[Jay A. Kelley]

How do you know? Seems like you would have had to sign an NDA if you really new inside info.

So you're saying that Adobe internal is using Cineform for R3d files?

Huh? no no no.. Not Adobe people "the company" I meant People USING Adobe for RED editing.

Obin has made is EXTREMELY clear in public he's been testing the new RED converter... Nothing secret there.
Jay

[Obin Olson]

Are things still looking good Rob?

[C.K.]

up!
Rob?