Really Good Idea - [Archive]

Matt Uhry

08-21-2008, 12:05 PM

The "New Epic Render" thread is now locked - not sure what to make of that, it seemed the input was really good and positive. Everybody is thrilled about the new cable treatment.

This Photoshop mockup that spinflight posted, and Ian Blooms sketch is a great direction to head in. I'm not sure of the limitations in the internals, but this is what I've been wishing for. This could be the best "35mm" format hand held camera ever made.

“Revolution is not a dinner party, not an essay, nor a painting, nor a piece of embroidery; it cannot be advanced softly, gradually, carefully, considerately, respectfully, politely, plainly and modestly.” Mao Tse Tung

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/10_1219345285.jpg

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

Fredrik Callinggard

08-21-2008, 12:20 PM

I couldn't agree more with you Matt. I think that RED felt we didn't appreciate their hard work. It was most probably difficult for them to to see that we were trying to give constructive criticism simply because we felt it was great progress, not the opposite.

I think they felt it was getting to much for their possibilities and that we were over seeing where it is right now - A small camera with a lot of great stuff packed inside it.

Meryem Ersoz

08-21-2008, 12:34 PM

That design morphs the camera from a camera which had some hand-holding challenges to a camera whose *only* application is hand-held. You've just traded the handheld issues for some weird balance issues if you mount the camera to, well, almost anything.

Personally, I liked the original flat bottom because it introduces the possibility of a sliding bottom plate, so that, with an ET-styled handheld system, then you get to decide where you want to place the center of gravity. Once you add the cutaway, you narrow the options regarding its placement. I think the cutaway they added seems like a good compromise. You still have a solid base to mount the camera, and it remains placed behind the lens mount, not in front of it, which has the possibility of introducing other complications.

C'mon ET, get your groovy handheld system moving along and save us from ourselves!

Paul Hazlett

08-21-2008, 01:08 PM

call me a product of the video realm, but I have always enjoyed the best handheld and tripod experience from cameras like the SDX900 nice balance
on your shoulder, there is a brick on back to balance the lens and locks into the camera plate that is attached to the tripod shoe in seconds. 2 contact points make for a very sturdy tripod
connection.

I'm just sayin' is all....

Harry Clark

08-21-2008, 01:27 PM

Jannard

08-21-2008, 01:50 PM

Surely there is a compromise to be had it the design of the Epic that makes it both fantastic in handheld and normal-serviceable in conventional mode.
I think somehow the Red Team felt like everyone was ganging up on them...
Harry

It isn't that we were being ganged up on... it is that we are hearing opposing ideas, seeing designs that are impossible to manufacture and feeling like we are required to respond to every idea... useable or not.

Jim

Harry Clark

08-21-2008, 01:54 PM

Yes. I can imagine that would be frustrating as hell. But once again, I'd like to thank you guys for at least listening to all the opposing ideas.
In the end, you guys will come up with a solution that works. And I'm looking forward to the Epic, whatever the physical form is. I'm sure it will be terrific!
I'll just hate to send RedOne #344 back for the credit. I'm not sure I'll be tired of it yet! Maybe I'll just pony up the full purchase price of Epic and keep the Red One. ;)
Cheers,
Harry

Paul Hazlett

08-21-2008, 02:02 PM

c'mon Jim your used to these whackos by now....aren't you?

1350 will be returned for a shiny new Epic, no matter how badly you mess up the design.....Kidding of course!!! I can hardly wait.

Patrick Tresch

08-21-2008, 02:05 PM

The Epic design thread is one of the most thrilling and brightest thread I've ever read on this forum. RED should recieve the business award for best interraction with customer. No other "large" company working on a such huge project ever took this kind of risk. Hearing different opinions can be win win but also disturbing. Only the braves can take this approach.

Thanks for letting us see the developping (hi)story!

Patrick

Ramesh Jai

08-21-2008, 03:33 PM

It isn't that we were being ganged up on... it is that we are hearing opposing ideas, seeing designs that are impossible to manufacture and feeling like we are required to respond to every idea... useable or not.

Jim
I'm sure there are be days when you say "Why in the world do I share ideas with these guys out there at all? Does Sony share ideas? I don't see them complain about Sony!"

You may replace 'world' and 'guys' with whatever words you want.

Matt Uhry

08-21-2008, 04:59 PM

It isn't that we were being ganged up on... it is that we are hearing opposing ideas, seeing designs that are impossible to manufacture and feeling like we are required to respond to every idea... useable or not.

Jim

No need to respond to each idea... Just pay attention to the people who you trust and know WTF they are talking about and ignore the others.

You have the opportunity to make a camera that sets the bar for usability in addition to image quality. I'm going to push you towards what I think that is.

This is all pretty obvious and I think you know it already.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

Harrison Diamond

08-21-2008, 08:29 PM

Matt, would you keep listening and responding if the suggestions about an idea of yours continued to seem to ignore what you've already established is not able to be changed?

That's the way some of the comments have been in the Epic threads.

IMHO the best idea so far to come out of there was the idea to turn the whole darn thing upside down. Of course this would require swapping the 'smart' and 'dumb' side panels and internals, so I have no idea if that is feasible, or if it will work with the cooling system designed, but it's certainly not an *awful* idea.

On a side note about the new render, I do believe I mentioned something about an additional drive/battery port on the side of the camera in the original (non-new) Epic Render thread? While not pointing directly out to the right, we do have a side drive/battery connector here... so I now know that my ideas aren't totally insane.

roryhinds

08-21-2008, 08:50 PM

I thought many where saying move the controls from the back and have a solid dock for the battery and drive.

I understand the frustration of working hard on something to have someone say, what about this or that - when you think you've though of everything and you know well the obstacles you've faced coming up with your design decisions.

Its frustrating when people ask for change and they have not been involved in the obstacles you've faced.

Fresh eyes will always point out the impossible or hard to achieve.

I think all we'd like to hear is the controls have to be on the back because...
and you have to mount the battery and drive separately because...

Its human nature to ask "But why?"

I'm sure EPIC will kick ass regardless of its form, we'll just have to get used to working with it, just as we have with the R1.

Again all we're trying to do is give feedback and help EPIC be better than the R1.

Harrison Diamond

08-21-2008, 09:18 PM

Rory, Jim has already stated you can remove the controls and use them wired elsewhere on the camera, or wireless on or off camera.

The biggest stink has been with a vocal faction calling for an even lower optical axis and further forward shoulder pad for handheld. This has resulted in conflicts with necessary parts of the internal design.

Matt Uhry

08-22-2008, 07:40 AM

Matt, would you keep listening and responding if the suggestions about an idea of yours continued to seem to ignore what you've already established is not able to be changed?

That's the way some of the comments have been in the Epic threads.

Nobody is asking Red to make a 6 legged dog, or a skyscraper made of chocolate, or a 4k camera for $17,500 :)

This is pretty normal camera design stuff, there exist successful examples of what is being discussed at rental houses, you can put them on your shoulder walk around the prep floor and see why it's good, and what can be improved.

If any further changes of design are simply is not an option for the Epic: I'm cool with that. I want Red to actually make the camera and not perpetually design it.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

roryhinds

08-22-2008, 10:43 AM

It would be great to see a render with the removable controls off the back and see the AC side of the camera.

Gregor Hagey

08-23-2008, 11:32 PM

That design morphs the camera from a camera which had some hand-holding challenges to a camera whose *only* application is hand-held. You've just traded the handheld issues for some weird balance issues if you mount the camera to, well, almost anything.

Personally, I liked the original flat bottom because it introduces the possibility of a sliding bottom plate, so that, with an ET-styled handheld system, then you get to decide where you want to place the center of gravity. Once you add the cutaway, you narrow the options regarding its placement.

I too think the flat bottom is the better design. For the Red One I have the tripod plate at the back under the HDMI out port, but the handheld balance point is at the very front under the lens throat. A camera with a flat base is far more versatile.