CineForm Officially Supports Red One [Archive] - Page 3

Paolo Tinari

11-04-2008, 02:25 PM

Ok, all your LUTs work fine and are very nice indeed.
There must be something wrong in the way i generate LUTs; i'm following cineform.com instructions but i must miss something.
The image shown before was a with a test LUT generated with no effects applyed in it (when i was using curves or a three way the clip was turning blacjk when the LUT was applied)
I'll go back to school and will report here.
Thank you for everything

David Newman

11-04-2008, 02:48 PM

Okay, good to know the issue is just generating LUTs -- that is much more understandable as we didn't make that super easy. The instruction here http://www.cineform.com/products/TechNotes/3DLUTGeneration.htm are pretty good but they don't emphasize enough that resolution of your source AVI, your sequence and your export all have to match. This is in Step 1, but it should be in bold. If you are using 1K Express files you will need to make a preset that is 1024x512 or 1024x540 to match your source. When you select the Export Look File, make sure that the export resolution is the same resolution as the preset and the source AVI. Now it should work fine.

P.S. Anything you create in SpeedGrade OnSet or similar will work fine.

David Newman

11-08-2008, 11:41 AM

Much easier to generate 3D LUTs (look files) in the latest beta. We added support for old (more common) 8-bit filters in addition to the 32-bit we already supported. This means the look generation will work with 8-bit tools like MBLooks and anything already in Premiere. Beta is available here http://tr.im/vk5

Jay A. Kelley

11-08-2008, 12:33 PM

Thought I'd let you all know there is an issue if you are using Cineform RAW 4K in AE CS3. When trying to make a movie you get a framebuffer warning and it crashes.

David Newman confirmed this issue on his end and said he will look into it this week.

As you can imagine, this is pretty serious for all of use who hoped to use larger rez clips for effects work, then downsample to 1080 or what have you for the final.

I'm sure David will come up with a solution quickly.

Jay

Adrian Van Rossum

11-08-2008, 03:59 PM

I can't wait for the day Cineform can render .avi's with 4 discreet channels of audio from the R3Ds - for us that would be a dealmaker. I know it's an SDK related thing, so will wait patiently for it (or the Premiere .R3D importer) to happen.

However, during our trial of Prospect I found an audio workaround that may interest Cineformers running BootCamp, or with access to a RedRushes compatible Mac.

1) With RedRushes on the Mac batch a bunch of .R3Ds into ProRes files - the resolution is irrelevant as we only want these files for their audio (choose a low output res. to save render time).
2) Switch to your PC and Cineform batch the same .R3Ds into the Cineform flavour of your choice (RAW, 444, 422 or Express - it's up to you).
3) Set-up a Premiere Cineform project in the mastering resolution you desire
4) Import and drop the ProRes files on your Premiere Pro timeline (only works with Premiere CS3, not CS2 or earlier) - if you've recorded 4 channels of audio, 4 audio tracks should show content
4) Unlink the ProRes video from their audio tracks and delete the video portions, thereby making the ProRes audio clips 'orphans'
5) Select all the orphaned audio clips and go to Clip / Audio Options / Render and Replace
6) Premiere will now make these clips .wav files
7) Drop your Cineform files on a video track over their corresponding audio clips
8) Select all the clips on the timeline, right-click and slect "Link"
9) The Cineform files are now married to their corresponding .wav files and you can move and intercut them with ease

I know a 9-step process isn't ideal for working with audio, but it may help you stick with Premiere and all the plug-ins and features you've come to love.

Peace out ...

David Newman

11-08-2008, 08:34 PM

The limitations at 4K in AE is a Adobe issue with their memory footprint problem, not really a 4K RAW issue, as CineForm 2K and 3K RAW decodes are not an issue. AE doesn't budget for the memory required to decode to a frame buffer when dealing with larger sources. Of we recently dropped the memory footprint for Premiere for 4K finishing work, we might be able to do the same for AE. CS4 for will help, as the memory footprint is spread over separate processes. For AE 4K, use the CF2DPX and DPX2CF tools to batch convert as needed.

David Newman

11-10-2008, 07:24 PM

Every PC product has been updated (Mac updates also in the works.) These updates are worth while for everyone, but particularly for those with quad core systems or better. All the decoders now have improved threading for 4-8 cores with now support up to 32 cores (see Blog entry CineForm Insider: Even More Decode Speed (http://cineform.blogspot.com/2008/11/even-more-decode-speed.html).) The benefits are noticable even on dual core systems. So while others are waiting on single stream quarter res. at 24p, you can cruise ahead with multi-stream 1080p/2K with RT filters directly out to an HDSDI connected display or deck (we are almost doing full res. 4K playback in RT -- 22fps on a stock 8-core at 3GHz.) May other updates are included.

See the update logs for:
Prospect 4K - Prospect HD Update Log (http://www.cineform.com/products/PHD_UpdateLog.htm)
NEO 4K - Neo HD Update Log (http://www.cineform.com/products/Neo_UpdateLog.htm)

AntonyCASAFilms

11-12-2008, 03:21 AM

David,

This quote is still on the Cineform website (http://cineform.com/products/TechNotes/R3DConvert.htm):

"R3D File Conversion
In addition, CineForm has agreed with Red to withhold distribution of the R3D2DPX utility we previously released until such time as Red makes its SDK available to others in the industry. Our understanding is that these "hooks" (as referred to by Red) should be available around the NAB 2008 timeframe."

AFAIK Red has now released the SDK, so why is the R3D2DPX utility still not available?

David Taylor

11-12-2008, 06:30 AM

AntonyCASAFilms

11-12-2008, 06:53 AM

Anthony, I'll pull down that old Tech Note today. I didn't think there were any links still pointing to it. As you're aware we've been supporting Red for almost three months with the "R2CF" utility (through the SDK) which replaced the old "R3D2DPX" utility.

OK, thanks for clarifying.

I will amend my Red PC Workflow wiki to remove R3D2DPX as an option.
http://red-workflow.wikispot.org/PC_Workflow

If you are updating your website, you might also want to know that http://cineform.com/products/Downloads/Downloads.htm#DL1 still refers to it (labelled as "Temporarily Unavailable").

David Newman

11-13-2008, 11:33 AM

Paolo, Your post disappeared.

Paolo Tinari

11-13-2008, 02:53 PM

Paolo, Your post disappeared.

Well... i wrote something stupid.
Was related to some difficulties on having different resolutions in timeline and making looks in Premiere.
When you make express no matter what your resolution is they come out as 1024x512. But when you choose to make Raw at their native resolution and then you relink your files and you want to make a new look, there there may come a problem. But is easily workaroundable. One way is to batch all the footage RAW 2k.

That said, i'm now easily making LUTs in Premiere and in Speedgrade on Set too with an amazing easiness. My outputs are stunning and easy.
Just need the ins and outs in the edl, if you could use your magic one more time...

David Newman

11-13-2008, 03:32 PM

Well... i wrote something stupid.
Was related to some difficulties on having different resolutions in timeline and making looks in Premiere.
When you make express no matter what your resolution is they come out as 1024x512. But when you choose to make Raw at their native resolution and then you relink your files and you want to make a new look, there there may come a problem. But is easily workaroundable. One way is to batch all the footage RAW 2k.

That said, i'm now easily making LUTs in Premiere and in Speedgrade on Set too with an amazing easiness. My outputs are stunning and easy.
Just need the ins and outs in the edl, if you could use your magic one more time...

Only one more time? What, then retire? What would Red do without me fixing their workflows? It is on the list, but damn I'm busy working on CS4.

Creating LUT is fun, faster and very flexible, plus the latest release of Prospect 4K make it more flexible by supporting 8-bit and 32-bit float filters types. Cool thing about converting a 8-bit filter into a 32-bit 3D LUT, is it gets rid of banding associated with 8-bit filters. Odd, but true, it is very cool.

Michele Gavazzeni

11-13-2008, 04:01 PM

What would Red do without me fixing their workflows?

David the code alchemist!!

Mike Harrington

11-13-2008, 05:33 PM

Creating LUT is fun, faster and very flexible, plus the latest release of Prospect 4K make it more flexible by supporting 8-bit and 32-bit float filters types. Cool thing about converting a 8-bit filter into a 32-bit 3D LUT, is it gets rid of banding associated with 8-bit filters. Odd, but true, it is very cool.

so apply 8bit filter.....make LUT....remove filter....apply LUT...voila...32bit filter results!

I get it....

not to get too demanding...but a LUT filter....one you drag and drop onto a clip,with effect controls(presets) would be more convenient then going into the playback preferences....
just a thought....
we know your busy....

David Newman

11-13-2008, 07:13 PM

so apply 8bit filter.....make LUT....remove filter....apply LUT...voila...32bit filter results!

I get it....

not to get too demanding...but a LUT filter....one you drag and drop onto a clip,with effect controls(presets) would be more convenient then going into the playback preferences....
just a thought....
we know your busy....

Yes doable, but breaks more of Adobe API conventions, need to get CS4 fully working before breaking some more.

Mike Harrington

11-13-2008, 07:24 PM

you are an artisté

:biggrin:

David Newman

11-16-2008, 08:10 AM

Hi Jay, (it seems if I've posted to a post you have since removed, no worries, you still might find this interesting)

Are you getting the error on export or while you are creating the composite? I have been working on the decoder memory impact, which was already reasonably efficient, and pretty much discovered even if we use zero memory, 2:1 4K is unstable in CS3, i.e. not us (even tested exporting to DPX which failed.) NOTE: why is 4K not an issue now in Premiere under P4K, when did AE become WORSE at memory handling? All the 4K work I've done in the past in CS3 was 4096x1714 StEM footage, I guess the wide screen format reduces the memory enough for CS2/3 -- this is why 3K shouldn't be an issue.

At 3K (3072x1536) I was able to do a 4 layer 16-bit composite on my laptop, exporting to both DPX and to CineForm 444 AVI, using 444 CineForm 3K sources. You should be seeing the same thing. I have my memory cache settings are follows.

Maximum Memory Usage : 80%
Maximum RAM Cache : 10%
And disk cache on.

I did complete some more importer optimizations, in attempt to fix 4K in CS3 AE. Now a 4 layer 3K decode uses less than 100MB (only 5% of the AE pool.) This is not changed much from the release build, but you should give it a try. http://www.miscdata.com/cineform/CFHDImport081116.zip Unzip and install this component over the same component in C:\Program Files\Adobe\Common\plug-ins\CS3\MediaCore. Let me know if it does the trick.

Paolo Tinari

11-17-2008, 06:31 AM

hey... pssst... ins & outs.... ins & outs....

Jay A. Kelley

11-17-2008, 01:55 PM

Thanks David,

I am trying the new settings now.. I'll let you know what happens!
Jay

David Newman

11-18-2008, 02:57 PM

Minor update to the R2CF tool. Here is the new R2CF distribution: download http://www.miscdata.com/red/R2CFv171.zip. Unzip the contents into: C:\Program Files\CineForm\Tools. To use this you must have NEO 4K or Prospect 4K installed on your Windows OS (trial version also works.)

The mapping of R3D SDK whitebalance data to CineForm Active Metadata engine has been tricky, now we have recalibrated the kelvin/tint "curves" of SDK to produce a precision match when translated to Active Metadata. In simple terms, white balance is accurately reproduced, without baking anything in. Note: this does not make you camera's white balance setting any more correct, we just produce the same output are the SDK, within the limitations of a cooked whitebalance. Within Prospect 4K, the Pick white control will get you the best whitebalance in post.

David Wilson

11-18-2008, 10:40 PM

Many thanks. Getting to be like old-hat working with the scripts and LUTs. It's all working beautifully.

Paolo Tinari

11-20-2008, 10:58 AM

Trying to get an anamorphic test on monday. Any hint on how Cineform would perform with anamorphic . r3d?

And, as usual, a edl in & out remainder for those out there involved in coding...

David Newman

11-20-2008, 11:31 AM

We have a pixel aspect ratio control already, but it is untested with anamorphic Red sources. Please send me a short anamorphic R3D when you can and we will determine the settings.

Paolo Tinari

11-24-2008, 12:01 PM

Anamorphic shooting postponed because of an asshole.

David Newman

11-24-2008, 05:22 PM

Minor update to the R2CF tool. Here is the new R2CF distribution: download http://www.miscdata.com/red/R2CFv173.zip. Unzip the contents into: C:\Program Files\CineForm\Tools. To use this you must have NEO 4K or Prospect 4K installed on your Windows OS (trial version also works.)

This fixes a scaling error when making 4:4:4 2K/1080p masters form 4K. It was subtle, but we are perfectionists. It was due to a floating point precision error -- when 32-bits are not enough. Also fix a low memory issue when making 4:4:4 3K or 4K masters (RAW masters were already fine.)

David Newman

11-26-2008, 04:19 PM

New public betas in time for the holiday. Lots of little bugs fixes.

Prospect 4K - http://02bb6aa.netsolhost.com/downloads/Prospect4Kv346b187-081126.zip
NEO 4K - http://02bb6aa.netsolhost.com/downloads/NEO4kv346b187-081126.zip

Christopher Grant Harvey

11-27-2008, 04:16 AM

David, does build 187 of P4K include R2CF 173?

David Newman

11-27-2008, 07:18 AM

Yes, all the latest stuff is in the build.

Sean

11-27-2008, 08:14 AM

Does Neo4K transcode files with Audio on PC yet? (I do return here to ask this question in various threads because I keep hoping--and I fully realize 3rd party developers may be limited by the SDK.)

David Newman

11-27-2008, 08:20 AM

It will as soon as Red gives us premission, it is a limition of the R3D SDK.

Luis Otero

11-27-2008, 08:28 AM

David,

Did the Mac Codec and/or ReMaster et affected because this?:sick:

Please advise,

David Newman

11-27-2008, 09:08 AM

Those products support more than just Red sources, they don't have audio disabled unless the source is R3D, as required by the R3D SDK licensing. It is out of our hands and is just as frustrating for us. We all have to wait for the new SDK.

Mike Harrington

11-27-2008, 10:04 AM

once the adobe plug is ready I'm guessing...
your audio debayer isn't up to par...

David Newman

11-27-2008, 10:16 AM

I don't understand the meaning in your second line. What is audio debayer?

I expect you're right that the audio support in the SDK will be delayed until their all their own products have support first. Yet their own products will not support CS3, Vegas, Combustion, etc, when ours do now, so don't limit third parties, enable them, it is for better customer support.

Mike Harrington

11-27-2008, 10:23 PM

I don't understand the meaning in your second line. What is audio debayer?

it was an attempt at sarcasm....:innocent:

refering to similar enforced delays....very dry humour....
I'm sure once the adobe plug is sorted out you'll have raw access as well.

it's nice to have support for your own products ready before others do,
I totally understand that....but as a customer.... I don't care....I would have liked to have the choice...I have no brand loyalty...whatever works the best...I use.

David Newman

11-30-2008, 11:06 AM

Here are the new beta download links

Prospect 4K (PC) http://www.miscdata.com/cineform/P4Kb187.zip
NEO 4K (PC) http://www.miscdata.com/cineform/N4Kb187.zip

Updates include:
Enhanced: the whitebalance accuracy converting Red source to use Active Metadata.
Fixed: a small handle leak in the decoder.
Fixed: A memory issue encoding 4:4:4 4K with R2CF.
Fixed: A subtle scaling artifact in large down scales from 4K or above.

Christopher Grant Harvey

11-30-2008, 12:09 PM

Here are the new beta download links

Fixed: A subtle scaling artifact in large down scales from 4K or above.

Hi David,

Thanks for the updates... with regards to this update. What artifacts are we talking here...?

Joyfool

11-30-2008, 03:08 PM

Hi David,

Does the R2C convert spanned R3Ds to spanned Cineform files? Or does it create 1 output file? If so is there a way to enable spanning in order to accommodate fat32 media?

thx

David Newman

11-30-2008, 03:27 PM

Hi David,

Thanks for the updates... with regards to this update. What artifacts are we talking here...?

In only impact the 1920x1080 444 down scale form 4K, and only in minor away. Some of the Lanzcos 3 lobe cooefficients where miscalculated for the righthand side of the image. If you used express, or RAW or 1920x1080 422 conversion script the condition didn't happen.

David Newman

11-30-2008, 03:29 PM

Hi David,

Does the R2C convert spanned R3Ds to spanned Cineform files? Or does it create 1 output file? If so is there a way to enable spanning in order to accommodate fat32 media?

thx

multiple spanned R3Ds (001, 002, etc) become one AVI. We don't recommend FAT32 as a write to volume for media, as all OSes can read NTFS without issue (and pretty much everything can also write NTFS now.)

Christopher Grant Harvey

11-30-2008, 03:57 PM

If you used express, or RAW or 1920x1080 422 conversion script the condition didn't happen.

Great thanks!

I just spent 3 days rendering to 422 and would hate to restart the process. :pinch:

Joyfool

11-30-2008, 07:15 PM

multiple spanned R3Ds (001, 002, etc) become one AVI. We don't recommend FAT32 as a write to volume for media, as all OSes can read NTFS without issue (and pretty much everything can also write NTFS now.)

thanks David. Your response made me use "the google" and lo and behold I found macfuse.dmg along with NTFS-3G.dmg and now my mac can format & read/write to ntfs.

Michael Tombeur

12-03-2008, 09:52 AM

Hi David,

just started using Neo Hd, and encoded a bunch of clips to cineform 2K 444, the image was very low contrast so tried to go with the -eL100-b0 and also the -l100 -b0 switches, but neither of those was giving something close to what come out of redcine with redspace applied which is what I'm after.
Then tried with the -dR switch which gives me something close colourwise but a bit too dark.
Do you know of any settings that would give me something close to redspace. or a bit lighter than with the -dR switch ?

Or maybe do you think it's better to just render in r2cf with default settings and grade from there ?

Also about the clips I render , if I look at them in premiere they usually look ok but once I switch to AE everything goes weird, depending on how I set things up, do you know what would be the right settings in Ae to take care of those clips. (16/32 bits, linear light etc...)

David Newman

12-03-2008, 10:28 AM

You don't really want the RedCine default look baked in, then grade against it, blacks are pre-crushed and some highlight clipping can occur. Use RedSpace (-dR option in R2CF) if that is close to you intended color corrected output, otherwise the defaults Log curve are the best starting point for extensive grading (greatest flexibility.) Of course we handle RedSpace as Active Metadata so you can turn it off in post (Prospect 4K, NEO 4K Mac), and go back to Log curves if particular clips need more range (so you can use -dR without compromise.) You can also brighten the default in Active Metadata and add digital gain like RedCine does, gain we do it non-destructively. Add to the script "+COLM=1.4,0,0,0,0,1.4,0,0,0,0,1.4,0", this is a colour matrix that gains up your primarilies (I guess we could make the -dR switch do this by default -- so many ideas.)

Will check out what is happening in AE 32-bit linear light mode.

David Newman

12-03-2008, 04:40 PM

Michael,

You AE report was just in time. An official (non-beta) release was about to be posted, and the AE linear fix was so simple it was added to tonight release.

David Newman

12-03-2008, 09:29 PM

These new builds are recommended updates, many bugs fixes and enhancements for an all-round improved editing experience. See www.cineform.com for more details and to download your updates.

Michael Tombeur

12-09-2008, 08:31 AM

Hi Steve tried encoding again with R2Cf to match redspace with the switch settings you recommended but I'm still having the same dark footage, colour is quite accurate compared to what would come out of redcine but blacks are too crushed, i get the same image i would get just using thge -dR switch, this is the scripts I used
defaultr3dswitches = "-dR -+COLM=1.4,0,0,0,0,1.4,0,0,0,0,1.4,0 -q4 -w3072 -h1536 -p1"

Any thoughts on this...?

Is this right ?

Mike

David Newman

12-09-2008, 08:37 AM

"-dR -b0 -q4 -w3072 -h1536 -p1 +COLM=1.4,0,0,0,0,1.4,0,0,0,0,1.4,0"

Try this. You didn't have the black offset set to zero, and had a typo in the activate metadata control (using '+' only not '-+'.) If this works out like you want, I'll roll that entire line into the -dR switch (minus the resize and quality controls.)

Michael Tombeur

12-09-2008, 08:52 AM

Hi David,
And thanks for the quick reply !!!
Trying that right now, will let you know..!
Wondering also If Q5 makes a real difference, not doing any keying there, whatcha think..?

David Newman

12-09-2008, 09:39 AM

If you source was uncompressed then -q5 would get you that tiny bit more, but it is much less value when transcoding a compressed source like redcode.

Michael Tombeur

12-12-2008, 04:03 AM

Hi David,
the "-dR -+COLM=1.4,0,0,0,0,1.4,0,0,0,0,1.4,0 -q4 -w3072 -h1536 -p1" switch does the trick, I'd say the redspace is a tiny bit darker (or more contrasty) and maybe slightly more saturated too?? but it's probablty a good thing actually. it's definitely close to redspace anyway .

Thanks very much for this..! very much appreciated..!

David Newman

12-12-2008, 07:52 AM

Remember this is all Active Metadata, you can tweek these parameters in post, find the desired look, then apply that upon the next conversion.

Gabriele Turchi

12-27-2008, 12:30 PM

Hi David,
I am back in my workflow research and cineform is still on top of the possibilities but i need more info...

About Xena and prospect 4k , i read that cineform have his own Xena driver , so,
How does it works the realtime hardware downconversion setup?..I know that in OSX there is the Aja control panel that allow to setup input and output of the card while you are using the kona with final cut...is that possible (configure output resolution for SDI and analog ) using xena and prospect?

thanks

G

David Newman

12-27-2008, 05:41 PM

We don't have our own Xena driver, but AJA does required third parties like CineForm to use the OEM driver, not the retail drives that ship with the card. AJA is protecting market segments or something, not really sure, but both driver sets seem to behave the same for us. We directly enable the downscale controls, only every had one other request for it, what is the application that you need is feature?

Gabriele Turchi

12-27-2008, 06:03 PM

only every had one other request for it, what is the application that you need is feature?

I am sorry david...I did not understand...(because of my English...)

What are you asking me?

sorry

G

David Newman

12-27-2008, 06:57 PM

No my typo sorry.

"only ever had one other request for it (for AJA scaling)" What do you need it for?

Gabriele Turchi

12-27-2008, 07:12 PM

Mmm so my english is not that bad...

Just wondering if we can select HD or SD output from Both SDI and Analog ,
for example during the playback have 1 SDI HD signal, The other one SD signal, the component analog HD signal etc...
Just select the outputs Like the aja panel in OSX does..

Thanks

G

Mike McCarthy

12-27-2008, 09:12 PM

That utility that I mentioned on DVInfo allows you to control the downconversion characteristics of the two SDI and single analog component outputs from the Xena LH/LHe independently. With the Xena HS cards, the SDI2 and analog boxes are greyed out, since there is only a single SDI output on the card. I believe the Xena HD card has no downconverter and the SDI output is HD only. (That is what the upgrade to the Xena HS adds.)

Gabriele Turchi

12-31-2008, 11:58 PM

Tanks McCarthy!
(actually the same features in that utily are in Machina (control pane for xena)

Even if i am waiting Cineform Fast an fully working on Mac, Finally i am testing the Kona LHe on windows (using Bootcamp)and Prospect 4K...
I have to say it works great with Kona /Xena !
I have Component HDSDI HD out ,Component HD, Component SD realtime downconversion etc...
beautiful...

I wish would be the same on Mac right now...

The only thing that it really doesn't work is the Live capture from RED HDSDI...

Under Premiere the live capture it does not work using Cineform HDSDI capture format , but if i switch the capture format to Aja AVI Capture or Quicktime Aja Capture and Aja Image sequence capture...It works ...

Setting Cineform HDSDI no signal at all....

Off course i have set 720p 59.94 in the Cineform HDSDI capture settings...but nothing

Any Idea?

Maybe because it is a trial?

Does anyone have experience to record Cineform in realtime from the HDSDI out from RED

Thanks

G

David Taylor

01-01-2009, 08:48 AM

Gabriele, there should be no problem capturing through Xena at 59.94. Please double-check your settings. We're away from the office for a few days so we can't duplicate your setup right away, but it should work fine....

Mike McCarthy

01-01-2009, 10:05 AM

Tanks McCarthy!
(actually the same features in that utily are in Machina (control pane for xena)

The only thing that it really doesn't work is the Live capture from RED HDSDI...

Under Premiere the live capture it does not work using Cineform HDSDI capture format , but if i switch the capture format to Aja AVI Capture or Quicktime Aja Capture and Aja Image sequence capture...It works ...
G

I believe this one is easy. I have been experimenting a lot with the AJA drivers recently. AJA offers version 3.5 on their site, while Cineform includes a different set in this location after install of Prospect:
C:\Program Files\Cineform\Tools\AJAIO\LH

If you use the AJA drivers, the HD-SDI output from Premiere works in Prospect, but I have been told by Cineform that it won't allow capture. Your reference to Machina is the give away that you are using the wrong drivers. Machina is not part of the Cineform drivers, and seemingly incompatible. You also won't have AJA capture options in Premiere, or regular AJA utilities. That is why that little .exe file I have is so crucial for the same output control functionality. I would bet that if you remove the AJA driver installation, and manually install drivers from the Cineform location, your capture issue will be fixed. As to why this is necessary, I have heard from Cineform that AJA requires it for marketing reasons, but AJA tells me they are frusterated that Cineform uses a custom driver against their recommendation. I would love to get that sorted out properly, because I need features from both driver sets.
The one caveat I have found is that, regardless of what I do to remove the Cineform drivers, something still prevents me from properly installing the regular AJA drivers again if I need to. They install fine, but Premiere never gives me access to any AJA features (Presets, editing modes, export options) I am assuming that there is some remanent of the Cineform driver that I can't find, since it has no uninstall process. Anyhow, if you need regular AJA functionality, be warned that this could be an issue, but using the Cineform driver should solve your Prospect capture issue.

Gabriele Turchi

01-01-2009, 10:16 AM

Thanks McCarthy,

Actually i have tried To uninstall all the Aja Drivers , uninstall the Card from the system and that reinstall using only Cineform...But the problem is the same...(maybe as you said some (aja in my case) part of drivers remain in the system...)...

PS:I did many install uninstall between Cineform and Aja to try , but actually every time i have reinstalled the Aka Drivers i always had the aja settings in Premiere...It's weird that it's not working for you...

What system? (mine is WinXp using a 2.66 MacPro)

Thanks

G

Gabriele Turchi

01-01-2009, 12:23 PM

Uninstalled everything (Premiere Trial , Prospect Trial , Aja Driver , Aja From The system)...

Than reinstalled in order:Premiere , Prospect ,aja Cineform Driver...

Still no capture...

PS:Off course the capture setting in cineform i have used are 720p 59.994..

PSS: If i switch to OSX keeping the RED on and i start capture in FCP ...no problem (so the SDI in Port and the RED is set properly)

Mmm...

G

Manuel López Pérez

01-01-2009, 01:09 PM

Hello.
This dual driver is quite annoying.
I do not understand why these companies can not work together.
I hope that the future driver for DeckLink will be better.

David Taylor

01-01-2009, 01:22 PM

It's quite annoying to us at CineForm also. AJA has forced third parties to use their OEM drivers and they have not included full functionality (for third parties) in the Machina drivers. In fact AJAs stated position is that if you want to run Machina and a third party application you need to install a dual boot. This isn't user friendly, but we can't do anything about it unless they consolidate the Machina drivers and the third party drivers.

Manuel López Pérez

01-01-2009, 01:32 PM

Hello David.
McCarthy said: "If you use the AJA drivers, the HD-SDI output from Premiere works in Prospect".
Is it only lost SDI capture? Is it playback SDI the same in both drivers?
SDI capture is no very important on RED workflow.

Gabriele Turchi

01-01-2009, 09:32 PM

Sorry manual but to me even record it's important...

so,
I think that maybe the problem is win xp (32) running on bootcamp...what do you think?

Or:
Does anyone have ever recorded any footage out from the RED Camera using Cineform HDSDI capture in Premiere ?

I am asking a confirm because The HDSDI out from RED is out of the SMPTE spec...(for example it doesn't work with HDSDI input of Blackmagic product...i have personally tested the HDLInk Pro and it doesn't work...and people from Blackmagic told me that from their test is out of spec...)
It works well with the aja card (capture)...as i said i have captured using Aja Kona in Final Cut and in Windows/bootcamp using machina (aja driver)...
...so maybe it doesn't work with cineform driver for Koan because of this out of spec?

David?

Please is quite important!

Well actually i would prefer activate the playback record cineform/kona in OSX!!!!

Thanks

G

Christopher Grant Harvey

01-09-2009, 11:15 PM

Any updates David? :tongue:

Kaku Ito

01-09-2009, 11:25 PM

David,

If AJA is annoying you, then talk to Blackmagicdesign to work with, they have abilities to develop both chip and the software, you would have easier time dealing with development.

Brent w Graham

01-15-2009, 03:32 PM

I noticed build 188 on the cineform website for prospect 4k updates.

But I can't find anything more recent than build 187 on the REDUSER forum.

Any idea where I can find that?

David Newman

01-15-2009, 03:52 PM

We don't officially post all the updates here, you should download official releases from http://cineform.com. But sometimes we do post public beta here and at DVinfo.net, and we are right in the middle of an upload on 3.4.8 build 191 as a beta.

Prospect 4K - http://02bb6aa.netsolhost.com/downloads/Prospect4kv348b191-090115.zip
NEO 4K - http://02bb6aa.netsolhost.com/downloads/NEO4kv348b191-090115.zip

These are likely the last major beta without CS4 features (yes it is coming,) so this is the CS2/CS3 version.

Some of the changes (there are more not listed.)
Added: DriectShow alpha channel encoding of 8-bit RGBA sources (previously was 16-bit per channel was supported in AE.)
Added: CF2DPX frame range access and more speed when creating DPXs.
Enhanced : Progressive v210 (10-bit YUV) decodes are 20% faster on 4+ core systems.
Enhanced: The CF2DPX example help is better.
Enhanced: Pulldown detection for very long records.
Enhanced: When requesting 24p from 60i, it will now deinterlace until it is more sure it has found a pulldown cadence.
Enhanced: 24p pulldown will be smarter when fed already 24p source than have no pulldown (Canon 24F source) or 50i sources.
Fixed: Look for CoreAVC first as the new CS4 AVCHD breaks AVCHD support in HDLink.
Fixed: Active Metadata with different user accounts.
Fixed: Alpha channel encodes from within BluffTitler.
Fixed: Playback using Vista's Window Media Player is now fast and with the correct aspect ratio.
Fixed: Super-super white (serval stops over) clipping with using Active Metadata but not using 3D LUTs.

Thor Wixom

01-16-2009, 09:42 AM

David,

What about outputting to 29.97 and 59.94 from 24 or 23.976?

There still doesn't seem to be a good pulldown method for going from 24 fps to 30 fps (or 60 fields per second), within Premiere.

The menu page that has that option in CS3, is overtaken by the Cineform menu page, that does not have that option. So it's nowhere to be found.

For me, this is the missing link between the film world and the broadcast world (or even standard def DVD world).

-Thor

Paolo Tinari

01-16-2009, 10:39 AM

No edl's in and out in that list?

David Newman

01-17-2009, 08:00 AM

Both are good ideas for version 4. Most of these additions where small bug fixes found while working on the next major release. This is one reason why we've been mostly quite, lots of positive stuff happening behind the scenes for CineForm.

David Newman

03-12-2009, 11:53 AM

Another R2CF update.

Details here : http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=386222#post386222

Tom Lowe

03-20-2009, 11:36 AM

David Newman

03-20-2009, 01:16 PM

David, when can I get the installer for Prospect HD for Premiere Pro CS4? Jake pointed me to a thread with a Beta workaround, but I just wanted to find out when the installer will be ready. I emailed product support, but never heard back.

thanks

Full CS4 support is a while off. We hope to have first PHD and P4K version 4 releases in a week or two, but those will not yet include the CS4 accelerator than Prospect uses in CS3. NAB is simply getting in the way of CS4 completion, as we have a lot more going on the just Adobe these days. Annoucements coming soon.

Mike Harrington

03-21-2009, 08:51 AM

....very curious......

Have to come see you guys at NAB.....

Tom Lowe

03-22-2009, 08:39 AM

Full CS4 support is a while off. We hope to have first PHD and P4K version 4 releases in a week or two, but those will not yet include the CS4 accelerator than Prospect uses in CS3. NAB is simply getting in the way of CS4 completion, as we have a lot more going on the just Adobe these days. Annoucements coming soon.

Get on it guys!

Tom Lowe

03-28-2009, 10:37 AM

David Newman

03-28-2009, 11:07 AM

What use is there in having Prospect if it can't even work with CS4? I mean, CS4 has been out for a long time now.

Many are using CS4 now with CineForm, some will wait for more accleration. Adobe messed up with the new API, it has taken all vendors a long time to to offer full support, which only started coming out over the last month or so. Plus our business is much more than Adobe support these days -- CS4 support is tactical, we've been focusing on strategic work, I think you will like the results.

Paolo Tinari

03-28-2009, 03:47 PM

Like cfavi straight out camera (R1 camera)? ;-)

Brian Harbauer

03-31-2009, 08:12 AM

Hey, congrats on First Light. Looking forward to seeing that on Beta! :rolleyes:

Tom Lowe

03-31-2009, 08:32 AM

Many are using CS4 now with CineForm, some will wait for more accleration. Adobe messed up with the new API, it has taken all vendors a long time to to offer full support, which only started coming out over the last month or so. Plus our business is much more than Adobe support these days -- CS4 support is tactical, we've been focusing on strategic work, I think you will like the results.

David, I'm sure I will. But I do need to be able to fully use Prospect with CS4 Premiere in the near future. :wink:

Luca Immesi

04-01-2009, 02:21 AM

Hi,
I don't know if this has been discussed before: will cineform work someday with some apple color? I love both applications.

Tom Lowe

04-21-2009, 09:32 AM

David Newman

04-22-2009, 12:40 AM

Newman, I know you're busy with NAB. Just a quick question here.

If I have Cineform intermediate footage transcoded from EX3 or 5D2 footage, can I just go back to using Premiere Pro CS3 until you guys have the CS4 support ready? I have some projects I need to get going on.

No problem, Prospect v3 supports CS2 and CS3. Prospect v4 supports CS3 fully with CS4 support partly, PPro 4.1 will help a lot (finally.)

Kaku Ito

04-22-2009, 01:01 AM

Hi,
I don't know if this has been discussed before: will cineform work someday with some apple color? I love both applications.

As you know the Color was made for DPX and Cineon, then Apple added the QT support later. The developers claim that current implementation on QT is awkward, so if Apple implements QT in Color correctly, then it should open up the market for 3rd party codec like CineForm.

I'm hearing other brands talking to Apple about more robust support.

Troy Smith

04-24-2009, 03:50 PM

To any of the Davids at cf.

We are going to be showing a red short to someone who needs to see it in the utmost quality, bluray is not good enough, so we are chosing to use cf codec to play the short with, my question is, which software player would you recommend to use? or will any of them do, vlc, wmplayer, etc, we'll be feeding a 52 inch HDTV from a laptop via HDMI Cable, or do u have any other suggestions on how to feed the HDTV?

Also on your old site I remember there was a link for people that can download the cf codec for free, a version that you cannot render with, just used for viewing cf footage say in wm player etc, or non realtime work in premiere etc. Is that still available? Or does that version not give realtime playback even in wmplayer etc?

THanks
Stricko

David Newman

04-24-2009, 04:05 PM

Troy Smith

04-24-2009, 08:24 PM

The best free player is Media Player Classic, some also use the Decoder out over Intensity cards (although that requests some some extra setup.) The Neo Player link is currently down due to all the new web site changes, it will be back shortly. In the meantime install any of the trial software, the decoder is free and unprotected for your application -- it is as fast as your PC allows, no RT limitations.

P.S. The best commercial theatre player for CineForm is a Wafian HR1/HR2 or the soon to be released CineDDR software via AJA Xena or Kona card.

Thanks David, I have a intensity pro in sitting here, I'll plug it in and do that, sounds better then using laptop with hdmi out.

Is this the media player classic version the one? http://download.cnet.com/Media-Player-Classic/3000-2139_4-10518778.html

THanks
Stricko

David Newman

04-24-2009, 08:49 PM

Yes that is the right player if you are not using Intesity (it using your stock Gfx card.) If you are at all familar with GraphEdit you can use that to hook the CineForm decoder up to the blackmagic DShow output device. I don't have an Intesity card here, so follow up on Monday during office hours and we tell you how to do it if you haven't worked it out.

David Taylor

04-25-2009, 09:37 PM

Actually the Neo Player link is, and has been, alive and well, although the link changed a week ago when we redesigned our site: http://estore.cineform.com/neoplayer.aspx. It's the first "Hot Link" on each product page.

Tom Lowe

04-29-2009, 09:21 AM

David any ETA on CS4 installer? :)

David Taylor

04-30-2009, 07:19 AM

David any ETA on CS4 installer? :)

We're shooting for tomorrow (Friday). The release will also include First Light, our new non-destructive image development application.

Tom Lowe

05-02-2009, 09:05 AM

Nice!!!! Thanks, guys!

Is the latest Prospect HD version already optimized for transcoding 1080p Canon 5D Mark II footage, BTW?

David Taylor

05-02-2009, 09:14 AM

Yes, v4 of Neo HD/4K and Prospect HD/4K supports the Canon 5D Mark II. We didn't do a formal release yesterday as we had a couple lingering bugs we were chasing. But David Newman posted Beta builds yesterday evening on DVInfo if you want to give it a whirl.

The new builds also include First Light, our non-destructive image development application.

Adrian Van Rossum

06-11-2009, 09:07 AM

David Newman

06-11-2009, 10:13 AM

I'm wondering how this new 'Red Color Science' and postings of RedAlert screenshots of improved blue-channel noise relates to the Cineform workflow? The original R2CF utility was out before the SDK, so I have a theory that Cineform de-bayering, image processing and color-handling happens independent of what is cooked up by the Red Color Science chefs and anything new that may be offered in future versions of RedAlert on Red CS4 plug-ins. Please correct me if I am wrong - just weighing up the pros and cons of a CS4 workflow with Cineform intermediate files versus using a future RED R3D CS4 plug-in updated with the new 'Red Color Science'.

I understand 'switches' can be added to the R2CF command line to closely mimic RedSpace (RSpace in Cineform terms), but is this Cineform's own image processing receipe that works independent of the Red SDK? Excuse my ignorance on such matters - I'm primarily a shooter and editor, but often wonder what's happening under the bonnet of my edit suite.

The current RedSpace is both a color matrix for developing the color saturation/look and 1D output curve -- and there the confusion starts. Red, please call them something different. The new color 'Red Color Science' is likely a modification of the matrix or the techniques that develop the color, not related to the output curve(s). The CineForm R3D conversion uses the R3D SDK for all the color/saturation development, but requests linear data so that the output curves are not baked in -- a the RedSpace curve is just one of many outputs curve that you dynamic choose upon a CineForm decode. So we expect any new color development well be part of the SDK, so CineForm users will benefit also. We will learn more when it get rolled into the SDK.

Adrian Van Rossum

06-11-2009, 11:06 AM

The CineForm R3D conversion uses the R3D SDK for all the color/saturation development

Thanks for the clarification David. My initial hunch was indeed wrong, but that wouldn't be the first time. The color science does get confusing for us laymen, so I tend to go by the image I see in my program monitor and what spits out on the Blu-ray disc and leave the 'science' to the codec and debayering experts like yourselves and Mr Nattress.

Good to know all the recent improvements in 'Red Color Science' will find their way into Cineform products. Must be a nightmare for you guys trying to cater to all the cameras, codecs and colorspaces out there (RED, SI cams, Rec 709, SI Log, Linear, RedSpace etc. etc.). And just when you think you've got it nailed down, out comes another codec/format/standard/colorspace/NLE version etc. If one thing is certain, it is change.