CineForm Officially Supports Red One

[David Taylor]

CineForm is pleased to officially announce support for Red One post workflows.

THE BASICS: CineForm has developed a command-line utility called R2CF.exe that will convert R3D files to CineForm files. Currently it is Windows (or Bootcamp) only, but will be made available for MacOS in the near future. Your CineForm files become your new master files for your online workflow and you can archive your R3D files as the digital negative source. R2CF allows you to choose either AVI or MOV wrappers depending on whether your intended post workflow is on Windows or Mac. Although R2CF does not yet work on Mac, the files it creates are fully Mac compatibile. BTW, R2CF will be integrated into HD Link (with its GUI) in the near future, eliminating the requirement to use a command line.

CINEFORM ENCODER: To convert into CineForm files you need a CineForm encoder product installed (Neo HD/4K or Prospect HD/4K) in addition to R2CF.

CONVERT: R2CF will convert single R3D files to CineForm files. R2CF is included in the CineForm --> Tools directory under Start Menu for Neo HD/4K and Prospect HD/4K (Build 179 or later). In the Tools Directory we also have batch scripts (.vbs) that perform batch conversion on folders full of R3D files. Parameters within batch scripts are easily edited by right-clicking on the .vbs file (Windows Explorer) and selecting Edit.

EXPRESS FILES: With the introduction of R2CF we are also introducing a new workflow element called "CineForm Express" files. Express files are color-perfect "mini" versions of full-res CineForm files. An Express file is typically a 1/4 (horizontal and vertical) resolution version of the source file. For 4K (2:1) R3D source the Express file is 1024x512. It is about 3MB/sec in size. It also shares the same file GUID (Globally Unique Identifier, which we use for Active Metadata) with the full-res CineForm Master file, so it supports all NLE color correction, transitions, effects, and CineForm Active Metadata identically to the Cineform Master file. When used in a 1080p Premiere Pro project, Express files are properly scaled for HD-SDI output using an AJA Xena card.

The idea is that you can create CineForm Express files much faster than real time on a modern dual quad machine and then immediately begin real-time, multi-stream editing work identically to the way you would with a full-res CineForm Master file, including HD-SDI support. But the files are much smaller and have extremely high performance, lending easy RT editing even on a modest laptop.

Whenever it is convenient in your workflow you can unlink the Express files and re-link the full-res Master files to complete your online edit at your final mastering resolution while retaining effects, transitions, color correction, etc - no proxy files, EDLs, or conforming required.

R3D METADATA: All R3D metadata is copied and inserted into CineForm (both Express and Master) files. White Balance is formatted as Active Metadata. Timecode data is also retained. All CineForm file formats (Express / RAW / 444 / 422) support Active Metadata, although you'll need Prospect 4K (Windows) or Neo 4K (Mac - temporarily called the Mac codec) to maniuplate Active Metadata.

Following is the workflow page for Red One: http://www.cineform.com/products/technotes/redoneworkflow.htm. The workflow page offers more details plus instructions about how to use the tools.

Feel free to give it a try. If you are not an existing CineForm customer you can download our Trial products that offer full functionality for 15 days.

[Emanuel A.]

Great news. Thanks. Especially that part as far as the modest laptop is concerned. Terrific for training and education use on field.

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

:w00t:

[Jay A. Kelley]

This is a very cool thing!

Jay

[Michael Mayda]

Thanks David. Great news. Please get all the Mac tools to us soonest!

Mike M.

[David Wilson]

... like Manna from Heaven...

[luis bustamante]

Indeed very nice!

[Brian Harbauer]

Big thanks David!

Excellent documentation to go along.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Congrats to the Davids and their team - the day has finally come. Having a sane cross-platform codec option with a well earned rep for impressive image quality at moderate bit rates is a welcome option for those times when DPX is overkill. Officially looking forward to seeing the images on an overpriced monitor sometime soon.

[Steve Freebairn]

Congrats on getting this working, I think Thor and Jay are going to die of shock tonight ;) Cut the price in half and I guarantee you'll have more than twice the number of sales.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Be sure you are clear here:

32 bit deep color in Premiere
32 bit color correction using Color Finesse
4:4:4 files
Resolution up to 4K...

I've been doing a lot of transcoding to 1080 4:4:4 and it's not bad. But the newer version you will all be using are supposed to be quite a bit faster.

Rendering the express files scream and better than real time. Although I have not had as much experience here.

The metadata features are pretty nice too. Color correct your file, save the look file, apply it to the metadata and bang, your correction plays back in real time.

Nice...

Jay

[Jay A. Kelley]

Congrats on getting this working, I think Thor and Jay are going to die of shock tonight ;) Cut the price in half and I guarantee you'll have more than twice the number of sales.

Truth is I've known this was coming for a while.. But I am still thrilled!!

As for pricing, I am no business person in this area, but I can tell you that the number of hours these guys spend on this stuff is staggering.

I'm not going to say it's expensive, or a low cost item, what I will say is that when I bought it, it burned a serious hole in my wallet, all things considered. And since that time, I have come to believe it has been one of the better investments I put into.

Of course each person will have to make that decision for themselves.

Jay

[David Wilson]

I bought into CineForm workflow products within weeks of the time they became available a number of years ago at what seemed like a touch of a steep price tag at the time. Ever since, I have considered that purchase to be one of the best investments I've ever made.

CineForm is a bit like Element Technica gear - seems a little expensive at the time, but the quality quickly outshines and, at the end of the day, lasts so much longer than the memory of spending the few extra dollars.

[Anderson I]

Hats off to the folks at CineForm. This is monumental. The Raw to Raw conversion alone is worth its weight in gold...and CineForm Express may resurrect my laptop.

If only CineForm made Hybrid cars...

[John Tissavary]

Why is r2cf 'temporarily offline'?

I would like to give it a try...


thanks,

John T.

[Thor Wixom]

Congrats on getting this working, I think Thor and Jay are going to die of shock tonight ;) Cut the price in half and I guarantee you'll have more than twice the number of sales.

Cinewho? :)

Actually, you're right...

:rip_1:

Teehee! :w00t:

[David Taylor]

Why is r2cf 'temporarily offline'?



John, what are you seeing as offline? I just did a download of Prospect 4K and it seemed to work fine for me.

But regardless, here are direct links. R2CF is included in the following downloads per the instructions on the workflow page

Prospect 4K: http://02bb6aa.netsolhost.com/downloads/Prospect4Kv341b179-080825.zip
Neo 4K: http://02bb6aa.netsolhost.com/downloads/NEO4Kv341b179-080825.zip

[David Taylor]

The Raw to Raw conversion alone is worth its weight in gold

Ishvach, a slight clarification. Through the Red SDK we are not performing Raw-to-Raw conversions. The SDK presents us fully decoded and demosaiced RGB frames which we then process. There is some indication that the SDK may present Raw (non-demosaiced) frames to us in the future, but the schedule is undefined. If this happens we would support direct Redcode Raw-to-CineForm RAW conversions.


If only CineForm made Hybrid cars...
Ah geez, we had already started down the hydrogen path....

[Jason Ing]

Hmm... I read it but maybe my brain has shut down for the night. Considering Premiere and FCP Red support, can someone please explain to me what is the benefit of Cineform? (maybe at a FisherPrice level so I can understand). Is Cineform saying that their format is better then directly working with the R3D files? Is it that much faster at that high of a quality? Like being able to edit and grade 4k in realtime with my dual quad pc?
I always like to learn about new toys. :)

[Kaku Ito]

Congratulation David!

I think this will be the solution for the feature film we are working on.
This will be the first worthy RED shot feature film in Japan.

Here's the pilot version that they received an award (http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=VcZ0F2BS8kE), but it will be totally remade with two RED ONEs from Visceral Psyche.

[Kaku Ito]

By the way, I kept having problems setting up bootcamp on my Mac Pro 8 Core, but I got the Parallel Desktop working and it seems work a lot better (since it works on Mac's desktop) so I can probably use the R2CF.exe on it.
I don't know how the converted files would be handled between Windows and Mac on this environment, but I'll give some try.

This is worthy topic so I will cover this story in my monthly column (RED ONE Central) on VideoAlpha magazine.

[Mike Harrington]

Through the Red SDK we are not performing Raw-to-Raw conversions. The SDK presents us fully decoded and demosaiced RGB frames which we then process. There is some indication that the SDK may present Raw (non-demosaiced) frames to us in the future, but the schedule is undefined. If this happens we would support direct Redcode Raw-to-CineForm RAW conversions


well kids.....disneyland is closed for repairs again....:bye2:

that's disapointing....the option to decode outside of redcine is great, but essentially were flattening the Raw image(albeit at a high bit rate)
with no visual feedback the look would still have to be developed in RedCine.
now the important question.....

I see the r3d metadata is respected during the conversion process(white balance ect) can this metadata be changed in redcine? and then the conversion process becomes a sped up render, with proxies?
or is the metadata only created during filming, with the camera itself...
if it can be changed in redcine(for those of us in pc land without red alert) then we can see some kind of visual feedback before we flatten it.
(unless i'm missing something....)

not to take away what you've done....great work i certainly will use it....but not quite the holy grail we were hoping for...still need that RAW

[Nick Shaw]

I'm hoping that although RAW-to-RAW conversion is not yet possible, it is possible to transcode to a Cineform file in an un-processed RAW like form, with active meta-data setting white balance etc. This would be very close to having access to the RAW, just not as efficient on drive space.

Bring on the Mac version!

[David Taylor]

I'm hoping that although RAW-to-RAW conversion is not yet possible, it is possible to transcode to a Cineform file in an un-processed RAW like form, with active meta-data setting white balance etc. This would be very close to having access to the RAW, just not as efficient on drive space.

This is exactly correct Nick. When creating 12-bit CineForm 444 files they become larger because they are now RGB, but if they are converted without flattening color information into the new file, the new 444 files with Active Metadata operate exactly like CineForm RAW files with Active Metadata.

[David Newman]

Expanding on the non-RAW conversions without flattening, the R3D SDK allows you to control, change, enable or disable any camera metadata that can impact the image development, that is pretty nice. We switch off all image processing and request a linear 16-bit per channel decode from REDCODE. All the camera metadata is transferred into the CineForm file, and white balance is transfered as Active Metadata. The main advantage of RAW to RAW transfers is speed, not quality or flexibility. Size can also a benefit, yet we currently simulate that with a RAW downsampling option, so you can 4K CineForm RAW Red One workflow today.

[Adam Glick]

Nice work David. This is going to be a big help for many pipelines out there.

[Jason Rodriguez]

that's disapointing....the option to decode outside of redcine is great, but essentially were flattening the Raw image(albeit at a high bit rate) with no visual feedback the look would still have to be developed in RedCine.

Actually this isn't the case. I personally like to think of this method as 'RGB RAW' vs. 'Bayer RAW' . . . the only difference between the two is the demosaic process, meaning the 'RGB RAW' version has a demosaic pre-applied where-as 'Bayer RAW' has this demosaic applied while the file is playing back (and why it can be a lot slower to work with).

But as far as the "really important" aspects of the image that define the flexibility and attractiveness of RAW workflows such as control over the overall dynamic range of the image, adjusting color metadata information, etc., there is no difference between the two formats.

So with the current CineForm approach with the REDcode SDK, the *only* step you're missing out on between CineForm RAW and CineForm 444 is the ability to change the debaying algorithm on-the-fly after the REDCODE->CineForm conversion process, which in the end really isn't that big a deal, and is not going to impact image quality. You're not "baking" in any color information like you would with a normal camera system or like if you were rendering out to DPX or some other format that didn't support color metadata and a dynamic color rendering pipeline . . . with CineForm's active-metadata feature-set you're still working with the RAW camera color-space, and getting all the same benefits of the bayer RAW workflow without the negatives of having to demosaic 4K data on-the-fly during playback. You're also not inheriting the negatives of compression or data-wrangling uncompressed file sequences.

[laguun]

that's disapointing....the option to decode outside of redcine is great, but essentially were flattening the Raw image(albeit at a high bit rate)
with no visual feedback the look would still have to be developed in RedCine.


I dont think so. For colorists, the fine colorprecision is the most important thing, no matter if raw or rgb - and thats exactly what is in the cineforms.

[Anderson I]

What exactly is the RAW downsampling option?

So when you say RGB Raw, are you referring to the fact that the active metadata has not been burnt into the image?

I'm familiar with the Raw to Raw conversion tool where the 4K r3d Raw files were in the 40MB/s range once converted to CineForm Raw.

With your new tool and the new SDK, what will be my comparable option, at the moment, of the past Raw to Raw conversion tool? (any pluses or minuses???)

And of course the 1K CineForm Express conversion is also worth it's weight in Gold!!!


....and if you're already down the hydrogen path, you may want to look into HHO conversion kits; it's a bit like the 1K express version for the masses :)

[David Taylor]

What exactly is the RAW downsampling option?

Okay, you asked.... As you're aware, demosaic algorithms interpolate missing R, G, or B values at each cell site to create a full RGB value at each site location. But most demosaic algorithms also attempt to perfectly preserve the existing R, G, or B values at each sensor site location. This means that you can back-sample an RGB image to recreate the original Raw image, essentially "undoing" the demosaic. The advantage is you get back to Raw and the file size after compression is about 40% the size of the compressed RGB image. The disadvantage is that there is no speed advantage of creating the back-sampled Raw format because it has been demosaiced first. So the determination of whether you keep the back-sampled Raw or leave it at RGB is really based on file size. If you keep the back-sampled Raw, you'll need to demosaic again later.

Despite the discussion above, there is some advantage at 4K in back-sampling to Raw as PPro is more stable (in our experience) with the smaller file sizes of 4K CineForm Raw than 4K CineForm 444.


So when you say RGB Raw, are you referring to the fact that the active metadata has not been burnt into the image?
Yes, this is what Jason means. There is no loss of image fidelity or chroma information when converting from CineForm RAW to CineForm RGB when no color information is flattened into the RGB conversion.


I'm familiar with the Raw to Raw conversion tool where the 4K r3d Raw files were in the 40MB/s range once converted to CineForm Raw. ?

I think this was answered above. The back-sampled RAW should be the same except for the additional processing to get there.


With your new tool and the new SDK, what will be my comparable option, at the moment, of the past Raw to Raw conversion tool? (any pluses or minuses???)
Hopefully a future version of the SDK will present decoded Raw images prior to demosaic. This is the best future-looking option.

[Anderson I]

Thanks for the thorough answer David. You guys are an unbelievable asset to this community.

What are we looking at as far as time, on a fast machine, when back-sampling to Raw at 4K?

[David Newman]

On my HP xw8600 (8-core workstation) I generate 4K masters at about 3+ fps in back sampled RAW and 35+fps for CineForm Express files. We expect RAW to RAW to the frame rate for conversion to be around 9-10fps (you can see why we want this.)

If you want to do your own speed tests, add the -s switch to the command, it will report the speed at the end of the conversion.

[Mike Harrington]

Actually this isn't the case. I personally like to think of this method as 'RGB RAW' vs. 'Bayer RAW' . . . the only difference between the two is the demosaic process, meaning the 'RGB RAW' version has a demosaic pre-applied where-as 'Bayer RAW' has this demosaic applied while the file is playing back (and why it can be a lot slower to work with).

But as far as the "really important" aspects of the image that define the flexibility and attractiveness of RAW workflows such as control over the overall dynamic range of the image, adjusting color metadata information, etc., there is no difference between the two formats.

So with the current CineForm approach with the REDcode SDK, the *only* step you're missing out on between CineForm RAW and CineForm 444 is the ability to change the debaying algorithm on-the-fly after the REDCODE->CineForm conversion process, which in the end really isn't that big a deal, and is not going to impact image quality. You're not "baking" in any color information like you would with a normal camera system or like if you were rendering out to DPX or some other format that didn't support color metadata and a dynamic color rendering pipeline . . . with CineForm's active-metadata feature-set you're still working with the RAW camera color-space, and getting all the same benefits of the bayer RAW workflow without the negatives of having to demosaic 4K data on-the-fly during playback. You're also not inheriting the negatives of compression or data-wrangling uncompressed file sequences.

ok i get it....
it's quite different from normal video compression...
so the image is more or less not flattened....only debayered...kinda like changing a raw file to an hdr in photoshop.

if that's the case then i take back what i said about being dissapointed...
way ta go cineform

ps is there any other codec out there that has this similar active metadata approach?

[Jason Rodriguez]

so the image is more or less not flattened....only debayered...kinda like changing a raw file to an hdr in photoshop.

Yep, that's definitely one way to think about it. But an HDR file typically has some type of color transform "baked" into it to some extent, meaning that while you could theoretically do anything with an HDR file, you are only able to properly reverse a color transform if you have the correct inversion function.

'RAW RGB' on the other-hand doesn't have those issues. There are simply no color transforms baked in . . . color transforms like white-balance, LUT's, "looks", etc. are all metadata.


is there any other codec out there that has this similar active metadata approach?

Nope :) . . . David and company have a lot to be proud of for providing some very interesting and exclusive technology enabling the ability to work with color and other forms of active metadata on visually lossless RGB 444 files.

[Mike Harrington]

one more question

is color correction done in premiere or color finesse merely modifying this active metadata?
and to what extent could other non adobe apps utilize this (ie fusion, combustion ect)
or is this strictly a cineform/adobe workflow

[Jay A. Kelley]

Seeing as how I use color finesse with this system I can answer in a professional calm and educated manner.

IT'S F*CKING AMAZING!!!

Ahem... I mean, you can make your one light corrections in Finesse, and them export these corrections as a LUT that you can then pull back into premiere and view in REALTIME..

Did I make this clear boys and girls? Color correction... Realtime playback... No rendering... It's true.

Now you cannot go NUTs here and do multiple layers and stuff (At least I don't think you can), but you can do your work in Finesse and then with a few clicks of the mouse import those changes and see them played back in realtime.

It's ALL non-destructive and affects Meta-data only.

It's amazing.. And it works. I'm using it as we speak on a music video

I am a happy Jayster.. All hail the Davids...

Jay

[David Newman]

This is a very big question. Active Metadata does not replace traditional color correction, although it can be used that way. Typically it is to setup your base look, and then you do far less in your color correction pass. Currently only Premiere integration of Prospect 4K allows you to dynamically change the Active Metadata, but we will be addresses this soon. However, then settings controlled Active Metadata are decoded correctly throughout the workflow, in Fusion, Combustion, Vegas, Vitrtual Dub, QT Player etc. So you can setup your base look in Premiere then continue that grade in Combustion (Fusions is still 8-bit for AVI/MOV media, Combustion is 16-bit for MOV files.)

Here is a sample usage that doesn't need Premiere.
1) Generate a DPX files for a scene.
2) Load it into Iridas Speedgrade OnSet.
3) Create a LUT .look files for your scene(s).
4) When you convert your R3Ds use switch +LOOK="path_to_file.look"

Now all you converted files have a 3D LUT look attached, no destructively.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Newman...

So was I wrong? I mean I can't be can I... I'm sitting here doing this.
:)

Jay

[Mike Harrington]

(Fusions is still 8-bit for AVI/MOV media, Combustion is 16-bit for MOV files.)

david
I spoke to you at NAB about this, and you indicated that you would inquire at Eyeon about them changing this in fusion.....

I plan to hound them....as I did at NAB
there response was "why not convert to DPX"

[David Newman]

Newman...

So was I wrong? I mean I can't be can I... I'm sitting here doing this.
:)

Jay

I did say "Active Metadata does not replace traditional color correction, although it can be used that way. " That is how we color corrected our last 48 Hour Film. It is so fast, it easy to forget it is not the "normal" way. I probably should say it intended the replace tradition film finishing (although some will do that,) but anything you would have done in your NLE it is totally up for the challenge.

[David Newman]

We fixed a couple of things today in the conversion tool:
* Correcting letterboxing at sub-resolutions (using switch -pX.)
* hang fix for requesting -p2 and specifying size at extractly half (the redundant request clashed.)
* new you can specify just width or height (the other is automatically calc'd)

We did the last so the DPX thumbnail script and Express can specify a 1K horizontal (-w1024) and let the vertical be what it is to match the source aspect. Basically simplifies all sources 2K,3K,3.8K,4K can now have 1K express files.

If you have download Prospect 4K or NEO 4K, the new downloads have these changes. Otherwise the patches are available here:
http://www.miscdata.com/red/R2CFv138.zip (requires Build 179 P4K/N4K installed)

Unzip can copy the contents into :
C:\Program Files\CineForm\Tools

P.S. Yes a GUI version is very near.

[David Newman]

I forget it is a little faster too.

[Jay A. Kelley]

It's quiet in here... Too quiet.. Are all of you out there using this stuff or what? What are your thoughts? What do you like, what do you (God forbid) not like?

We've been hammering, bitching, screaming and begging for a solid post workflow for RED for a year... It's here and all I see is SILENCE?!?!?!


What gives?

Jay

[David Wilson]

I've spent every available hour since the release coming to understand and working with this (for me) splendid new work flow.

Jay, I have a question for you. Are you being able to see color correction changes you make in the CineForm Raw File Metada screen as you make them or do you have to save out of that series of screens to see the effects of your change?

And similarly, are the forward/back/fastforward/etc. buttons in the Fime Metadata screen functioning for you? The re not for me. I keep feeling there should be a preview toggle switch somewhere I should check.

Those questions aside, this way of renderless cutting and previewing is like a dream come true.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I have to make the changes in Color Finesse first.. And I see them in Premiere when playback is paused.. To get them into realtime playback, I need to export the correction out and then load the look file back in the file metadata section.

Glad you are enjoying it.. I figured everyone was quiet cause they were busy editing.

Newman may chime in here and give a more Techie/Programmer Geek answer.

(I say that with love david!) :)

Jay

[David Newman]

We've seen a large number of downloads until our server went out, sometime last night. Back up again now.

Here is an update : http://www.miscdata.com/red/R2CFv140.zip

Unzip can copy the contents into :
C:\Program Files\CineForm\Tools

This is version has been bullet proofed. If you kill a task or do something bad on you system it will redo impacted conversions. Great for 4K batching over night, no nurse-maiding required. I've been converting the OpenCut footage without issue while doing everything else on the same system (including this post.)

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

This is truly a fast amazing work flow!!

The best work flow so far for Red...

[David Wilson]

David, Jay or actually anyone whose working with this new workflow..,

Every aspect of the software is working well for me with one exception having to do with LUTs:

I color correct a shot with Adobe Fast Color, Synthetic Aperture or CineForm Color Corrector. Color correction works fine. I export the correction as a CineForm Look file - seems fine. I then turn off any color correction on my clip.

When I attempt to load the presents in the cineForm RAW File Metadata screen, however, I get unpredictable results: CineForm color corrector returns a black screen, Color Finesse and Adobe Fast Color returns a lovely psychedelic version of my shot (negative, solarized... but with the correct color cast)

I am running the most recent P4K and the R2CF David just uploaded, CS3.

I am extremely happy to have the Kelvin color temperature slider by the way

All else is working splendidly - Many thanks for all of this.

[David Newman]

The Look generator we added to Premiere needs a little hand-holding, we should post warning if any of these issues occur. It requires all the filters be 32-bit, the timeline resolution, clip resolution and export resolution all must match (what you seeing is the result of an incorrectly scaled 3D LUT) alone with the frame rates. Also as our LUTs are extensive 64x64x64 floating point cubes, you need to have at least an SD image, so no tiny source files.

Many users are using 1K Express files on HD/2K or 4K timelines, while that works great, it does allow for the look generater to work correctly (you can use 3D LUT files, just can't make new ones.) Instead, create a CineForm 1K editing preset in Premiere for your Express files (your editing experience will be even faster) now everything works. To "conform" to 4K, create a 4K project and import your 1K Express project (relink the media to 4K.) Simple.

[Jay A. Kelley]

David I have seen this happen in Finesse.. But I cannot tell you why. My complaint at this point is that the look files cannot be made to have the same name as the file it's applied too. This means I am always guessing which look file applies to which clip.

We need some way to know which look file applies to which clip. Otherwise it get's a little difficult.

I have music videos where i only made one chance on one file, but I still get 20 or 30 look files when I export them.

I have asked for help on this.. Not sure of the status. Or is this was a reasonable request

Jay

[David Wilson]

Many thanks, I'll go back and try again, this time I'll try to do it right.

Ecstatic about all of this, thanks again.

[David Wilson]

Thank you - if you do it right, it works beautifully - like magic - 4K color corrected real time without rendering. How'd you do that?

[David Newman]

Jay,

Set the work bar in the Export Settings rather than exporting the entire sequence. If you work bar only covers one segment you only generate one 3D LUT.

[Jay A. Kelley]

You know what.. I think you told me this once and it went completely by me..

Thanks for the info, and sorry I missed it the first time.

Now I get it... Pick the clip I wish, color correct it.. Save it with the name I wish like "White balance warm with extra push" then I have a Lut I can identify and apply to whatever files I wisih... This is a MAJOR cool thiing

Jay

Jay

[David Morgan]

I'm looking at this and it seems really nice, but my big question is this...does CineForm work for Avid?

[Chris Swartz]

I wish Avid were Jaws and Cineform were chum!

Yum Yum

Of course if that happened Cineform would not be quite so innovative would they, or responsive.

If Avid knew what was good for them a Cineform acquisition would have already been done.

We can dream can't we?

Chris

BTW to answer your question, No Cineform doesn't work for Avid, but I have been able to convert Cineform files to DNxHD files using MpegStreamClip. They look really good too.

[Jim Stewart]

I wish Avid were Jaws and Cineform were chum!

Yum Yum

Of course if that happened Cineform would be quite so innovative would they, or responsive.

If Avid knew what was good for them a Cineform acquisition would have already been done.

We can dream can't we?Why would we like to be happy with such happening or stupidity?

[Jay A. Kelley]

If Avid and Cineform ever worked together... That would be a game changing event wouldn't it?

I wish

Jay

[Joel Kaye]

This is version has been bullet proofed. If you kill a task or do something bad on you system it will redo impacted conversions. Great for 4K batching over night, no nurse-maiding required. I've been converting the OpenCut footage without issue while doing everything else on the same system (including this post.)

So if I batch process files on a PC can I then work with them under OSX and edit in Final Cut? Or is this whole thing really meant to work in Premiere on a PC?

[Jay A. Kelley]

You would need to re-wrap them into MOV files, but then I am told editing cuts only in FCP is no problem at all. Dizzovles and such may need to render.

Jay

[Emanuel A.]

If Avid and Cineform ever worked together... That would be a game changing event wouldn't it?

I wish

JayJay, Jimmy is referring if AVID were Jaws and CINEFORM were chum. The point is: it's not if they were, 'cause to each its own.

If by any chance, AVID would buy CINEFORM this might be a great thing in any way other than as for the CINEFORM's owner(s) pockets. Not exactly for the typical CINEFORM customer. Only for the typical AVID customer.

[Mike Harrington]

Adobe's got a lot more money then Avid
and judging by how companies like Red, Cineform, ect are able to write plugins for them with far greater ease then for the others...I'd say Premiere has the most modern code base.

I'm pretty sure Red was working on Avid workflows just as long as Adobe.

If Avid and Apple don't watch it...Adobe will steamroll them in the next couple versions...(as soon as there audio issues are worked out)

[David Newman]

So if I batch process files on a PC can I then work with them under OSX and edit in Final Cut? Or is this whole thing really meant to work in Premiere on a PC?

Currently the tool runs on a PC, yet it output is PC or Mac.

R2CF your.R3D new.avi -- generates a 4K 4:4:4 AVI
R2CF your.R3D new.mov -- generates a 4K 4:4:4 MOV

Unfortunately FCP can't do 4K, work around is to window to 4000x2048 (or similar.)

So the Mac equivalent is
R2CF your.R3D new.mov -r -(48,0,4048,2048) -- generates a 4000x2048 cropped RAW MOV ready for FCP.

[David Newman]

Regarding AVID, CineForm files go into MetaFuze without issue.

[MichaelP]

And MetaFuze is free that can also be driven by lne command and be used in a multi node render for faster processing...

Michael

[gbalaji]

David Newman,

I tried encoding R3D file to cineform mov file running in my MacBook under Parallels under Windows Vista and used R3D file with audio. The output movie doesn't contain audio.

Is the support for audio not yet done?

[gbalaji]

And the quicktime movie doesn't have timecode?

My command script was r2cf ABC.r3d output.mov

[David Newman]

The SDK doesn't have audio yet, so we aren't offering it, but we are ready for it. We have been told it is very close, so fingers crossed for a new SDK release soon. Timecode is currently going into the video sample (as with all source metadata data), and that is being currently read by Premiere on the PC. Based on the level of interest from Mac users, we will add a timecode track for MOV applications, sooner or later. A show of hands for Mac interest would be nice. We are focusing a little more on Adobe Premiere under Windows for the initial release (where this is posted) as we have the strongest workflow there.

P.S. Glad to hear is running under Parallels, we hadn't tested that.

[Arnaud Paris]

The express script gives a message 'please entry the path to work on' but does not bring any window to select the path. Is it normal? Do you have to edit the script with the correct path?

[Kenn Michael]

So when you bring a clip into FCP the timecode doesn't match the original R3D? We DEFINITELY NEED THIS.

Thanks!

[chocblu]

Timecode,

It first when i read that the quicktime didnt have timecode I was like, why? Its a total Necessity.

But then, i thought about it. Cineform is an intermediate file format. That means only in disaster should you need to go back to the r3d files, and you would probably manage to get the same timecode back out of them. Its not really like your doing an online/offline with these things.. This is your footage for all intents and purposes...

Of course, having the timecode there would be nice....But I understand why you may not actually need it...

[alex trettenero]

i used adobe on pc. and cineform, on pc.
i was happy with it.
then came the red.
i bought a mac. and i bought both finalcut studio pro AND Adobe cs3 for mac.
now it turns out the best solution will be Adobe and cineform, again.
i'm really glad to hear that.
BUT.
please. i'm not one of those guys who like to jump from one computer to another, pc, mac, whatever.
now i have a mac. it's lovely, fast and easy. I'm happy with it.
please, cineform, don't make me do mac/pc switching any time i need red footage.
go for a Mac version!

i'll be waiting for it to crossgrade my cineform licences.

thanks.

[David Taylor]

Alex, if you can run the converter on Windows (or Parallels or Bootcamp) you can create CineForm MOV files directly instead of AVI files. Choosing MOV instead of AVI is a simple parameter in the converter and the associated batch files.

The converted files can be used in FCP or PPro (Mac). Remember FCP has a 4000-wide limitation but you can also control this through the converter. But initially I think you'd create Express files.

Although we don't have our RT engine inside PPro-Mac or FCP, you should get very nice performance, expecially with the Express files. Our SetActiveMetadata app for Mac allows you to change Active Metadata.

To create 3D LUTs on Mac you must use the trial version of Speedgrade On Set (free 30-day trial) from the Iridas website.

We'll have a Mac-native converter in the reasonably near future, but if you can use Windows to convert (for now) you can explore the workflow on Mac.

[David Newman]

Timecode,

It first when i read that the quicktime didnt have timecode I was like, why? Its a total Necessity.

But then, i thought about it. Cineform is an intermediate file format. That means only in disaster should you need to go back to the r3d files, and you would probably manage to get the same timecode back out of them. Its not really like your doing an online/offline with these things.. This is your footage for all intents and purposes...

Of course, having the timecode there would be nice....But I understand why you may not actually need it...

Yes, timeline is an artifact of the offline world, have bunch of inherent issues. 99% of CineForm onlines don't need timecode, but like I said we do include timecode today for those who need it, it just not exposed in MOVs yet.

[alex trettenero]

Alex, if you can run the converter on Windows (or Parallels or Bootcamp) you can create CineForm MOV files directly instead of AVI files. Choosing MOV instead of AVI is a simple parameter in the converter and the associated batch files.

The converted files can be used in FCP or PPro (Mac). Remember FCP has a 4000-wide limitation but you can also control this through the converter. But initially I think you'd create Express files.

Although we don't have our RT engine inside PPro-Mac or FCP, you should get very nice performance, expecially with the Express files. Our SetActiveMetadata app for Mac allows you to change Active Metadata.

To create eD LUTs on Mac you must use the trial version of Speedgrade On Set (free 30-day trial) from the Iridas website.

We'll have a Mac-native converter in the reasonably near future, but if you can us Windows to convert (for now) you can explore the workflow on Mac.
i know, i must confess, i am so ignorant.
I have never dared to go and see what exactly parallels is.
i have always feared that it could possibly require a windows license installed in my mac and this is something i'm not ready for. i'd rather have a clean windows pc sitting side to side with my mac.
but, still, i'd rather have a mac and work just on it with a little more room over my real desktop and a little more space on my hard drives.
then i hope the wait for a mac version won't take too long.
i'll be faithfully waiting.
sorry about this...

alex.

[David Newman]

The express script gives a message 'please entry the path to work on' but does not bring any window to select the path. Is it normal? Do you have to edit the script with the correct path?

Sorry, the scripts they weren't intended to be double clicked on. We will do the GUI that will remove the need for the scripts very shortly (although some will still find the scripting handy.) To do a batch conversion today go the to the Start Menu -> Programs -> CineForm -> Tools -> R2CF...

This will open a shell (command prompt) and offer initial instructions on the conversion. From here type:

cscript scripts/BatchExpress.vbs [R3Dpath] [outputPath]

If you R3D files are located on v:\project1\ and you output path is v:\master, your common line will be:

cscript scripts/BatchExpress.vbs v:\project1 v:\master

It will place all the express files in v:\master\express

[David Newman]

I just completed some more extreme testing to match production environments. I batch converted all of Open Cut 1.0 -- 115 minutes of 4K R3Ds -- first as express files, then as 4K CineForm RAW masters.

Here are the stats:
It completed the DPX thumbnails in 3 minutes.
It completed the 1K Express file output in 90 minutes, averaging 30.6fps.
If completed the 4K Masters in 15 hours, averaging 3.1 fps.

R3D source 168GB
DPX thumbnails 88MB
CineForm Express 1K files (AVIs) 12.5GB
CineForm Master 4K RAW files (AVIs) 131GB (Filmscan1 quality.)

If you had one hour of footage in 1-hour shooting day, everthing could be batched including Express files and Masters overnight in 8 hours using a single PC.

[David Wilson]

If I were to do a color correction in RedCine, is there a way to maintain or access that color metadata across the R2CF conversion process?

[David Newman]

If I were to do a color correction in RedCine, is there a way to maintain or access that color metadata across the R2CF conversion process?

Yes are no. We don't currently bake in any camera metadata for good reasons, so the question is whether we can simult the camera settings in Active Metadata (with 3D LUTs we can.) A nice SDK feature would be output the camera profile as a 3D LUT, rather than coefficients to algorithms that remain internal to the SDK.

[Kenn Michael]

David, what is the recommended best Windows OS to use with Bootcamp? XP, XP64, Vista?

[David Newman]

Today XP64, although sadly its support will be reduced with CS4 and other new software release.

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

I cannot believe there is no activity on this thread...

Where is everyone?

[Jay A. Kelley]

Editing!!!

:)

Jay

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

Editing!!!

:)

Jay

Hopefully...!!

I know I am...:tongue:

[David Wilson]

I am too.

I'll be happy when the GUI is in place but am doing just fine for the moment with things the way they are - trying different approaches to see what works best for us - going through Express vs. going straight to 4K CFHDAVI etc. Still some things to learn, I can tell; but so far, definitely so good.

[David Taylor]

I thought I'd bring some information from the middle of this thread - with the latest links to the conversion tool - to the end so everybody can be sure they have the latest. The latest R2CF.exe tool is v1.40. It is included with the latest Prospect 4K and Neo 4K downloads. But if you downloaded an earlier version of Prospect/Neo you may have an earlier version of the converter. The improvement to v1.40 converter is mainly the scripts for batch processing (which are quite convenient!). So:

R2CF v1.40: http://www.miscdata.com/red/R2CFv140.zip. Unzip the contents into: C:\Program Files\CineForm\Tools

To do a batch conversion go the to the Start Menu -> Programs -> CineForm -> Tools -> R2CF... This will open a shell (command prompt) and offer initial instructions on the conversion. From here type:


cscript scripts/BatchExpress.vbs [R3Dpath] [outputPath]

If your R3D files are located on v:\project1\ and you output path is v:\master, your command line will be:


cscript scripts/BatchExpress.vbs v:\project1 v:\master

Express files will be placed in v:\master\express

If you don't have P4K or N4K installed, you can download here. These downloads include the latest R2CF v1.40 converter.

P4K download: http://www.cineform.com/products/Downloads/DownloadP4KTrialStart.htm
N4K download: http://www.cineform.com/products/Downloads/DownloadNEO4KTrialStart.htm

[Thomas Patrick C.]

May not be a question for you, but should be noted there is an issue with mxf files with latest build 179. Since I upgraded to 179 mxf "not supported", same error on all 3 of my computers. Sent a support ticket in 3 days ago.

[David Newman]

I'm sure it will be addressed in the new week. MXF can be for so many source now: Grass Valley Infinity JPEG2000, Panasonic P2 DVCPRO-HD, Sony XCAM HD and EX MPEG2, all different. I guess added a feature for one camera broke another, so make your your trouble ticket lists which MXF camera source you are using.

[Kaku Ito]

I saw the Cineform Express file that was converted by Mr. Miyajima and it looks fabulous! I'm thrilled that such small file look so good and I can grade with this, then later replaced with the master 4K file.

I'm convincing a film team to adopt Cineform for their project.

I can't wait till you come out with Mac version with GUI.

[Troy Smith]

Whenever it is convenient in your workflow you can unlink the Express files and re-link the full-res Master files to complete your online edit at your final mastering resolution while retaining effects, transitions, color correction, etc - no proxy files, EDLs, or conforming required.



Hi David, Concerning the Express file workflow, if one is editing with the express in a 1k project, once you relink to the 4k resolution files, how do you adjust the project to match the 4k files, or do you import your project into a 4k project, or do you just export 4k resolution from that 1k project as premiere is resolution independent, like in the example video, adobe made with the r3d files, where the working resolution was 512 pixels or watever it was.

Pls chime in here, thanks.

[David Newman]

Here things are pretty flexible.

Two main approaches.
1) Use 1K Express files in a preset that is set to your finishing resolution, and have Premiere set to scale to default size. This is what most are doing as the preset already exist. Media can be re-link directly with the same project session.

or

2) Create a 1K preset and edit in that, which is little faster than the above as no additional scaling it needed. When your edit is finished, import the 1K project into a new finishing res. project and re-link the media.

Both methods work well, and all the Active Metadata transfers without issue.

[Arnaud Paris]

Hello David,

Woudl you consider putting together a little pdf or tutorial about the second method.

Also did you see my post 2 pages ago about the error message that the express script is giving me?

Thanks,

Arnaud

[David Newman]

Hello David,

Woudl you consider putting together a little pdf or tutorial about the second method.

Also did you see my post 2 pages ago about the error message that the express script is giving me?

Thanks,

Arnaud

Arnaud,

What part of the of the second method should we expand on? Here is some more info. Creating a preset is easy, click on a existing preset then go to the custom tab and change the resolution to 1024 by 512 (for 2:1 sources), and use that mode, edit as normal. The second part, you can import an existing project just as you would video media, it a pretty neat feature of Premiere.

You must have missed my reply to the script question here:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=276327&postcount=76

[Arnaud Paris]

Thanks for all this precious info David!

[Thomas Patrick C.]

David,

Is there a way to batch convert all the R3D files in the main folder, where by it will look through all sub folders for the R3D files and batch convert all in order. ?

Right now I'm doing them one at a time, still executing BatchExpress.vbs

[David Newman]

Yes, although we haven't provided a script for that. If others don't create that scruipt I'll look into it. Much of the scripting stuff need goes away with HDLink integration, although this particular script modification this would likely be very useful for many.

[Thomas Patrick C.]

That would save a ton of time. Also will the process someday soon be as simple as pressing buttons and checking off boxes through Cineforms preference menu rather than working from the command prompt?

[David Newman]

That is the idea. Of course in the meantime, just search on *.R3D in your complex path, then drag the search results into a higher directory on the same volume. This takes a only a few seconds, then you can batch all R3Ds with one script call.

[Troy Smith]

David, with your HP workstation, do you get realtime playback with 2k files when the cineform playback setting in premiere for half res playback are unchecked? or do you always have that checked to help things along, I'm on a old HP workstation, I get great playback with 2k files when its set to on, but when I uncheck that for full resolution playback, it's a no go, doesnt' bother me, just was interested what the deal is with latest computer.

Thanks

[David Newman]

2K is completely real-time on modern hardware, has been for several years, even a single proc Core 2 Dual core PC does it. Do you have old Xeon hardware? That was rather slow for memory throughput.

[Troy Smith]

2K is completely real-time on modern hardware, has been for several years, even a single proc Core 2 Dual core PC does it. Do you have old Xeon hardware? That was rather slow for memory throughput.

Yea i have hp xw8000 dual xeon from about 4 year ago, planning to get latest HP that you recommend soon. Demoing cineform now, we have a 2k anime we are creating, all comped in afx, we are planning to render to cineform 2k to do the editing in premiere, so far test have been great, we cannot see a quality drop at all, impressive, we are exporting to filmscan2 as this is going to get printed to film and or dcp for theatre.

[David Newman]

David,
Is there a way to batch convert all the R3D files in the main folder, where by it will look through all sub folders for the R3D files and batch convert all in order.

Recursive batching is now working.

Download R2CF v1.41: from there http://www.miscdata.com/red/R2CFv141.zip. Unzip the contents into: C:\Program Files\CineForm\Tools

Now the shell command
cscript scripts/BatchExpress.vbs [R3Dpath] [outputPath]

will recurse through all sub-directories within [R3DPath] and place all the resulting files in [outputPath]/express.

Also the scripts test if the conversion has been completed so there is no harm in running the script multiple times. This means you can convert an entire volume without converting any clip twice. Great of converting all the new material at the end of the day, without have to worry about where it is.

e.g.
cscript scripts/BatchExpress.vbs r:\ v:\

Converts every R3D files on R: to a CineForm AVI and stores it on V:.

If you create a simple text file like this (use notepad.exe)

cscript scripts/BatchExpress.vbs r:\ v:\
cscript scripts/BatchHD444.vbs r:\ v:\

and save the file as go.bat within C:\Program Files\CineForm\Tools

Now all you have to do at the end of each shooting day is type "go", so that all your dailies and masters will be created back to back, automatically.

[Thomas Patrick C.]

Great, exactly what I was asking for, will test it.

I've been using it thoroughly for a few days now and have to say the R3D workflow, for me anyways, is on par with working with P2HD mxf files. Shooting 4K 2:1, down rez to 1024x512 for editing, cc, the playback is much smoother than 1080 DVCPROHD, and the rendering is much faster as well.

Good job.

[Matthew Chuang]

how long does it take to convert 8 gigs worth of 4K r3d into cineform raw and cineform 444?

[alexx_hg]

David(s), may I ask here:

(1)In comparison to the rendered DPX Raw files from redcine (2800px wide) to the CF Avi Raw (4096px wide) than scaled down to 2800px in Aftereffects the footage looks slightly washed out in detailrich areas.

I´m not "the" script guy, so I coudn´t found out how to r2cf an r3d file to a CF Raw.avi scaled down to 2800px.
Maybe the washed out areas are coming from the scaling in Aftereffects, so I want to try out scaling directly from the r2cf converter. So where and what in the script can be changed?

(2)During converting, when I have a splitted file in a folder than after adding the second file and after several minutes later the converter stops and I have a corrupted avi file. No problems with a single file.

thank you

alex

[David Newman]

how long does it take to convert 8 gigs worth of 4K r3d into cineform raw and cineform 444?

Depends mostly on your PC, current 4K RAW and 444 are about the same speed as there is no raw mode yet in the SDK. On a 3GHz 8 core 4K master convert between 3-3.5 fps. For dailies and editoral, Express files output at 30-40 fps.

[David Newman]

David(s), may I ask here:

(1)In comparison to the rendered DPX Raw files from redcine (2800px wide) to the CF Avi Raw (4096px wide) than scaled down to 2800px in Aftereffects the footage looks slightly washed out in detailrich areas.

I´m not "the" script guy, so I coudn´t found out how to r2cf an r3d file to a CF Raw.avi scaled down to 2800px.
Maybe the washed out areas are coming from the scaling in Aftereffects, so I want to try out scaling directly from the r2cf converter. So where and what in the script can be changed?

(2)During converting, when I have a splitted file in a folder than after adding the second file and after several minutes later the converter stops and I have a corrupted avi file. No problems with a single file.

thank you

alex

1) The scaler in R2CF is likely better than After Effects, so to direct scale to your target of 2800px your switches are simply -w2800 (edit Batch444.vbs.) So your command is

R2CF your.r3d output.avi -w2800

The height will automatically determined from your source picture ratio if don't specify with -hValue.

2) So you only have the second or third part of a multi-part file? The conversion will automatically convert .._001.r3d, .._002.r3d sequences without issue. If you only have _002.r3d, it is best to rename the file to _002a.r3d, then it will convert alone. If this is a common occurance will will change the way this is handled.

[alexx_hg]

David, thank you for your answer.

Regarding the scaling option, this what I´ve done, this does not work. Now I noted, as soon as I remove the "-r" in the commandline it works, but than this means it´s an 444 convert? The "-r" is for Raw?

alex

[David Taylor]

Now I noted, as soon as I remove the "-r" in the commandline it works, but than this means it´s an 444 convert? The "-r" is for Raw?

alex

Alexx, this operation is correct. You cannot scale RAW data. Once you desire to change the spatial resolution of the image it must be developed to RGB.

[David Newman]

Alex, It have been discussed in a few places that RAW as in CFA Bayer, and RAW as in an undeveloped image, are too separate issues. Even with a444 encode, the data is RAW in the sense that no color operations have been cook into the image, it is just as flexible as Bayer RAW. Only use the -r when the image is not scaled, this reduces the data rate but not the flexibility of the image in post.

[David Wilson]

Thank you David's...
R2CF already astonishes me and it just keeps getting better.

I've gotten quite comfortable working from the dos prompt but am very much looking forward to the gui and ultimately raw to raw conversion.

[Maz Mawlawi]

Hi David,

Finally got around to testing the R2CF utility. I have a few questions... WE're running the BatchHD444 script and I was wondering the following:
1) when using REdcine, we output our files using Camera RGB and REdlog color space.....what are the settings needed to closely simulate the same results using your script? I tried cineon log and default gama and they both look way different than Redlog...

2) When running the script it prompts to click "ok" after each conversion of the R3D files...is there a way to suppress this and just have it convert all the R3d files in a folder without ever prompting me?...I am sorry if this has been asked before. I looked and couldn't find the answer. Other than those two issues, it looks like we will be purchasing a few licenses :-)

Thanks

[Thomas Patrick C.]

>is there a way to suppress this and just have it convert all the R3d files in a folder without ever prompting me?..

i assume you are running vista, if you don't mind giving up some of the vista security functions, just go into control panel, user account and family access, then user account, turn "user account control" off.

[Maz Mawlawi]

No not running Vista, running XP. I am not talking about windows security messages or UAC...When the script finish processing the first R3d file, a window pops up to tell me it was successful and i have to click ok so the next files starts getting converted and so on...the little window pops up after each conversion of R3D files...

[Thomas Patrick C.]

Right, may be different then, but happened on my computer until I turned off user account control, so now it runs straight through w/o the window popping up.

[David Newman]

3xm, are you running "cscript" to launch the batch? We are not seeing any pop-ups.

[Maz Mawlawi]

I am an idiot....I wasn't using cscript :poster_oops: ( I re-read the instructions carefully...) I was just executing the vbs file with a specified path after it...
thanks!!! :-)

What about the Redlog settings....any suggestion on what settings to use?

[David Newman]

Finally got around to testing the R2CF utility. I have a few questions... WE're running the BatchHD444 script and I was wondering the following:
1) when using REdcine, we output our files using Camera RGB and REdlog color space.....what are the settings needed to closely simulate the same results using your script? I tried cineon log and default gama and they both look way different than Redlog...

Sorry it took me a while to get to this, too many meetings today.

RedLog from under from ProLost post (http://prolost.blogspot.com/2008/03/red-log.html) is just a log curve with with black at 0 and white at 1023 (in 10-bit numbers.) You can produce the same curve with the CineForm transcode. The default -l90 (log90) we use is very close but we default to removing the black offset (which I don't think RedCine does.) If you want to match RedLog, I think the numbers are -l100 (Log 100) -b0 (no black level correction.) Let me know if this matches your findings.

[David Newman]

New release to help anyone have issues with DOS shells.

Download here: http://www.miscdata.com/red/R2CFv142.zip
Unzip the contents into: C:\Program Files\CineForm\Tools

Now you can double-click on the script you need, and a simple GUI opens to request where your source is and where to put your outputs. Hope this helps.

http://www.miscdata.com/blogimgs/SourceR3D.png http://www.miscdata.com/blogimgs/OutputAVI.png

No, this is not the GUI we are planning, that will be an HDLink integration, but it makes conversions pretty easy for everyone.

Also made the Ctrl-C cancel much cleaner.

[Mike McCarthy]

Absolutely stoked about this new GUI. I was just starting to look into scripting this afternoon, and this does exactly what I need.

[David Newman]

Mike & Others,

I just made a small change in the v1.42 download. The scripts wouldn't always recurse the directories as I was incorrectly testing for hidden folders. The Download above is now up to date as the time of this new post.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Uhhh david, do you think you could put a "browse" button into those boxes? It would make life a lot easier.

Jay

[David Newman]

Those popups are output from the VBS scripts themselves, I have very little control over them. Any VB script experts out there? For now browse with explorer then cut & paste the address bar into these windows.

[David Wilson]

Thank you David. I was having trouble but was sure it was something I was doing wrong (which it usually is). Seems to be working perfectly now.

[David Newman]

http://www.miscdata.com/blogimgs/scriptmenu.png

The new beta of the Prospect 4k http://www.miscdata.com/cineform/P4Kb180.zip and NEO 4K http://www.miscdata.com/cineform/N4Kb180.zip. Simplifies access to the script engine. Now you can set up a batch from the Start Menu -> Programs -> CineForm -> Tools -> Scripts. These new build includes the 1.42 version of R2CF.

[David Wilson]

Great, thank you.

[luis ignacio barrague]

Hi David. I just downloaded this beta version to test the srcipts convertion from red files. I´m traying to convert the files to cineform HD444 but the image stays choppy like missing frames. The footage I have here are R3D files from a red one but they are at 120fps diferent sript for this?

Luis

:help:

[David Newman]

The scripts should be the same. The AVI produced will play at the intended playback rate. I just tested a 2K overcranked clip here using the HD444 script and it played back correctly at 23.976 for slow motion. Maybe you are trying to play back the clip faster than your PC is capable, and it is the playback that is skipping. Right Click on the AVI and select Properties, this indicate the playback rate it will attempt (rounded down to the nearest frame, so 23.976 will show as 23.)
http://www.miscdata.com/blogimgs/AVIproperties.png

Now if your PC is a little underpowered, there is a work around. 1080 444 clips on my laptop play at 21 fps here (skipping a few frames,) there is a script to help you with that. Select Start -> Programs -> CineForm -> Tools -> "Desktop Playback - Fast". Now my laptop plays the same clip perfectly (if I turn off rate control -- play as fast as it can -- it will play the clip at 60+ fps.) Under Premiere we handle this automatically, so even on my laptop I can multi-stream edit in real-time.

If something else has gone wrong with the conversion, like it has duplicate or missing frames, I would love to see the R3D file. You could send that to me via yousendit.com to my email dnewman at cineform dot com. Sometimes the best tool for examining an AVI on a frame by frame basis is VirtualDub (I use it everyday.) Get your copy here http://www.virtualdub.org/

[Mike Harrington]

Sometimes the best tool for examining an AVI on a frame by frame basis is VirtualDub (I use it everyday.) Get your copy here http://www.virtualdub.org/

indespensible tool....
free as well

[Lauri Kettunen]

While creating CF express files in bacth R2CF got stucken with a directory containing the Pre*.R3D frames created by the pre-record mode of the camera. By stucken I mean R2CF was running (checked this by hitting crtl-atl-del) but nothing happened for an hour, it just kept running like the Duracel bunny. Is this a bug?

[Lauri Kettunen]

Another question, is the map from CF 4:4:4 (obtained with the SDK debayer algorithm) to CF raw invertible. That is, is the composition map CF 4:4:4 -> CF raw -> CF 4:4:4 identity providing the user with precisely the same image one started from?

On the wishlist:
1) Please add into the GUI a (graphical) gamma curve large enough enabling the user to finetune the s-curves.
2) Could you make an option to arithmetically just add n frames to each other to form a new frame holding for the time of m frames? To see the motivation, say one shoots stars on the dark sky. The longest exposure time of the camera is not long enough, but it should be easy to extend the exposure time in post by adding arithmetically frames to each other.

[David Newman]

Lauri,

Good reports and questions. We never tested pre-record captures, can you zip-up the pre*.R3D files that got R2CF stuck, and use YOUSENDIT.COM (100MB is free) to email the archive to me, dnewman at cineform dot com.

0) Regarding, 4:4:4 -> CF raw -> CF 4:4:4 exactly the same image?

No, it will not be exactly the same. 4:4:4 -> CF Raw works because in a bayer image the original 2 greens, 1 red and 1 blue cells are pretty much unchanged by the debayer filter (same debayer althorithms they aren't changed at all, although we don't believe this to be the case for Red debayer.) CF -> CF 4:4:4 will be developed through a CineForm demosaic which is under user control, so it will be a little different. The debayer filter CF Advantage Smooth looks most like the Red debayer in detail and sharpness. As you now get to do the debayer, you can choose to develop the image differently for more or less detail. However, we believe the advantages of producing 4K Raw way exceed the disadvantages (which I believe are insignificant.) As the data rate is so greatly reduced, decode performance is higher, so it is more partical to use 4K in you edit, rather than converting to 2K or 1080p. Of course direct R3D SDK RAW -> CF RAW will be best for speed reasons, I doubt you would able to tell the difference in image quality.

1) S-curve is not really planned for base image development, remember you can add a 3D LUT which is far more flexible than just S-curves. We presetting the image data such that is best of downstream processing, through Active Metadata and tradition color correction. Have you tried the Active Metadata engine in Prospect 4K under Premiere yet? We could consider added S-curves there.

2) Yes that is completely doable, although I doubt there are many customers to cover the development costs to make it a base feature. Couldn't you just do it in After Effects? How often are you doing astrononmy with your RED?

[Lauri Kettunen]

David,

Thanks, I'll send you the archieve as soon as a batch conversion of about 1T of r3d files to CF express files is over. Thank you also for the explanation to raw files and back.

About the gamma or S-curve, I've found it highly useful in Redcine making it possible to gain accurate reproduction of colors/tones. Have not yet tried the Active metadata engine under Premiere, but if you could add the s-curve there, I beleive many will find it useful.

Addition of frames; In fact I'm not that much after astronomy besides the aurora borealis. But I'm in wildlife business and almost always shoot as long as there is some light available and even after that. Some animals, such as wolves typically start to move only when it's getting dark and a virtual extension of the exposure time emulating the Canon XL-series long exposure times (such as 1/6s) would be very useful. In addition, such an option made it possible to make nice transitions from day to night in a single footage without moving the camera. After effects is indeed useful but bit clumsy and slow in practice.

Cineform has made so many useful things needed in editing and these express files is another example of that. Finally, always enjoyed following your blog. If possible please keep posting all that good and useful stuff.

[David Newman]

I need to add more to blog, sorry it has been so long, been very busy and I'm not a good writer.

We do have gamma curve controls as part of the Active Metadata engine, just not S-curves. Before 3D LUTs we offer the base ASC CDL base color developement operations -- Lift, gamma, gain and saturation matrix.

The reason to try AE is make sure the star details can be summed, as it is not quite the same as real long exposure. Each short exposure is then compressed into REDCODE with does impact the noise signature, the risk is the low noise will not be summed correctly due to the compression. The summing of dark images works with there is a small signal (star) and random noise (not a star), the random noise can be extracted away producing a clear signal (lovely star fields.) Compression messes with the random noise, potentially coursing problems. This is all theory as I've never tried it. If you can send me a R3D long exposure star field, we can try it out.

[falcon418]

Having just returned from a shoot in Alaska with over 1TB of red footage and not being able to make redcine work right, we are quite appreciative of all the work cineform's done to bring this to us.

So far, we have only one bonehead question concerning the new GUI. If we use the BatchExpress option, is there any way to direct that the express files write to another drive? Other than the drive which holds the Rd3 files.)

Thanks,

[David Newman]

Having just returned from a shoot in Alaska with over 1TB of red footage and not being able to make redcine work right, we are quite appreciative of all the work cineform's done to bring this to us.

So far, we have only one bonehead question concerning the new GUI. If we use the BatchExpress option, is there any way to direct that the express files write to another drive? Other than the drive which holds the Rd3 files.)

Thanks,

Absolutely, see this post http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=280376&postcount=119. The second control panel is the output path. It can be to any other system location or network mapped drive.

[Lauri Kettunen]

David, sent you an email and the sample file with pre-recorded frames.

Discovered another bug; In May my camera got stucken and it did not react to any button. Eventually had to pull off the power cable and reboot the camera. The playback of the camera did not manage to play any file taken before this file but all the files were just fine when opened with Redcine.

Now when I converted the r3d files to CF Express files, everything after the corrupted file is mixed with the previous clip. That is, if I open the CF file in Windows Media Player, it appears as if every other frame is from one file the every other is from another. This seems to suggest, if the file has not been closed properly, R2CF does not recognize such an error.

[David Newman]

Cool find, if you could send me the defecting clip, I will check want went wrong with the conversion. Likely, deleting and re-converting all but the corrupted clip with work fine.

[Obin Olson]

HDlink batch RC support yet David
?

[David Newman]

Not yet, but there is getting less need as we can drive the scripts completely via there own GUI. There are things the scripts are doing that make you work easier then if you used HDLink. Now with a few mouse clicks, type a path or two and you can convert an entire volume of R3Ds without opening a shell. HDLink support is coming, but GUI assisted scripts are also here to stay. See posts:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=280487&postcount=125
and
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=280376&postcount=119

[David Wilson]

I'm finding working with the new GUI enhanced scripts easier and more intuitive than working with HDLink in the past.

[luis ignacio barrague]

Hi David, thanx for the response. The thing is that the files playing chopy where timelapse :) sorry. .. i didn´t know. I started the bacth script of 120GB .R3D files shot on red 2k 2:1 converting to CINEFORM444 1920x1080 on saturday 11pm and they are still working. I think it will finish tomorrow afternoon. My computer is a Quadcore 2.4Ghz 2ghzRAM and i´m reading from one sata2 drive and writing to another one. Do you think that a raid config would help on performance?

[David Newman]

Luis, when you get a chance, could you send me a short timelapse sequence. Your PC is most likely CPU saturated not disk limited. Sounds quite a bit slower then it should. 2K decodes are pretty fast, although we do use a very nice scaler to convert 2K to 1920. Sometimes it is best to convert 2K to 2K, then size or crop as need in post. Typically the CineForm encode is only 10-15% of the compute time, so the speed is most a combination of R3D decodes and the scale.

[David Newman]

I just re-read, you timelapse sequence was supposed to be choppy? Not a bug?

[luis ignacio barrague]

Hmmm... now i understand, wrong choice HD. I shoud stay with 2kRAW cineform, right? . Yes, my CPU is 100% all the time the four processors. When i finish the conversion i contac you on PM to send you the R3D files of the time elapse

[luis ignacio barrague]

Yes... it supposed to be choppy :) not a bug Sorry

[David Newman]

You see a good increase is conversion performance if no scale is used, although you PC is still under performing. Maybe you have some virtual memory issues, disk swapping, as I haven't tested 4 core with 2G of RAM, only 2 core at 2GB and 8 core at 4GB. Modify the scripts to add "-t2" to the list of switches, this will reduce the memory load. Cancel you current conversion (at the start of a new clip is best) with control-C. Modify the script (NotePad is fine,) line 7 with defaultr3dswitches = "-p2 ..." and -t2. Restart the conversion, it will begin where it left off.

[David Newman]

Small update for extra usability, here is the download for R2CF v1.43:
http://www.miscdata.com/red/R2CFv143.zip. Unzip the contents into: C:\Program Files\CineForm\Tools

Now the conversion doesn't show all the frame dots, instead you will see

converting M:\video\Red\B16\A001_C003_0618AQ_001.R3D
Ctrl-C to cancel
Source 4096 by 2048 at 23.976 fps
Frames completed (out of 129): 117

[David Wilson]

Many thanks... I had grown to kind of like all the dots but I guess this makes more sense.

[Kenn Michael]

Hey David, I changed the scripts to default to .mov but when I run the script, the convert tool completes the conversion, but no output file exists throughout the conversion and nothing exists after the conversion. .avi works fine though.

[David Taylor]

Hi Kenn,

I just performed a batch conversion to MOV successfully. Here's what I did. I copied BatchExpress.vbs to a new file called BatchExpressMOV.vbs. I then edited BatchExpressMOV.vbs and changed the destination file wrapper from .avi to .mov.

I then double-clicked on the newly created script, entered the source directory and destination directory. It properly created and populated the Express directory with .MOV files.

Did you do something differently?

[Kenn Michael]

I did the same thing... Weird. I'm running the converter in Parallels. I have QT installed. I'm not sure what could be affecting my system for the converter to not build the .mov file.

BTW - I was initially having problems converting to 4K RAW files in Parallels, but after upping the memory usage to 2GB, they're converting all the way through without error.

I may have to just try BootCamp to do the conversions. Maybe that will fix the .mov issue?

[Kenn Michael]

Also, I'm able to pull in 4096x2304 files into FCP with no problems. The sequences max out at 4000 horizontal pixels, but when you export, it exports properly at 4096 without cropping, or scaling.

[Kenn Michael]

lastly, the .avi Express files that I convert from R3D 'flicker' - ever other frame is slightly darker than the previous. The BatchRAW files don't have this flicker, and if I re-encode the flickering Express file to a new Cineform file on the Mac side, there is no flicker.

[David Newman]

AVIs under the Mac are little flaky, it is a weekness of Quicktime and its never the same gamma feature. As MOV the express files are fine, so we have to determine why your windows emultation won't support MOV creation (we have seen this only when Quicktime wasn't installed under the emulation, but you've done that.) If you want to use AVI Express files on the Mac in the meantime, remove the -y switch from the BatchExpress.vbs script, this will give you a 4:4:4 RGB 1K vs a 4:2:2 YUV 1K.

[David Newman]

Today's new feature: Quicktime timecode in the MOVs. Plus a couple of minor tweaks.

Download for R2CF v1.44:
http://www.miscdata.com/red/R2CFv144.zip.
Unzip the contents into: C:\Program Files\CineForm\Tools

Kenn, we found that flicker and it will be fixed with a new decoder build, and it also will not occur when currenting MOVs directly using the new version.

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

Wow... I have not checked this forum for a few days and a lot has changed on the CF side of things. Good changes...

The new GUI is super great and works like a charm and is of course very quick and easy. Thanks guys!! :biggrin:

[alexx_hg]

David.
In Redcine, there are some helpful functions like sharpening, denoise and detail.

Would it make sense to have a sharpening and a denoise funktion while converting to cineform?
Don´t know if this functions are done during the debayer process from redcine.

To be honest, in redcine converted to dpx has a slightly better picture in detail and the noise pattern looks a bit different.

Downscaled to HD there is no visible difference, but here comes our problem: We are doing a panoramic projection with three projectors, the picture is divided by three and each picture has1024x768 so we finally get 3000px in width. So we are needing every piece of detail and resolution, and the next difficulty is, it is a daylite projection, so we have to push and grade the footage to its borders and sometimes sharpening, denoise and detail helps a lot.
Doing this in aftereffects doesn´t give the same quality.

R2CF is an incredible tool, really fast, easy and save to handle in aftereffects as 3K Avis, while Redcine and DpxRAW(RGB) is incredible slow (beside the lots of Terrabytes) and in small timeframes a nightmare.

So back to my question: Is it possible to get sharpening,denoise and detail in cineform while converting or one of them?

thanks
alex

BTW: A big thank you for the welltimed release of r2cf!

[davidfortney]

THANK YOU!!!

Just downloaded the beta Cineform and latest r2cf. I have a hard time with dos - trying to type long lines without errors. The batch scripts with the simple gui is a welcome relief! This is Fantastic! I had been working with RedCine for weeks with just computer crashing results. This new gui comes just in time for my new shoots. Thank you!
Claire and David

[davidfortney]

PS
I said that I have a hard time with dos - trying to type long lines without errors. And I noticed in the example of the r2cf it says: -w=1920 -h1080... It seems that the = is an error as well and the switch only performs correctly when you type -w1920 .......

Claire

[David Newman]

Sorry for the delay in my responses today, very busy helping a partner getting reading for IBC.

Firstly there is a new version:
http://www.miscdata.com/red/R2CFv149.zip. Unzip the contents into: C:\Program Files\CineForm\Tools. To use this you must have NEO 4K or Prospect 4K installed on your Windows OS (trial version also work.)

Many minor internal updates, added new switch
-ROx - R3D SDK OLPF compession (0 = off, 3 = maximum)
-RNx - R3D SDK DeNoise filer (0 = off, 6 = maximum)


Alex:
In this new version I have exposed the R3D SDK's Optical Low Pass Filter Compensation and Denoise, the Detail is already defaulting to High. These are the only additional SDK controls that impact noise and preceived sharpness. The denoise is subtle, maybe it is more obvious with noisy source.

All sample below are 1024x768 1:1 pixel extract form a 4K frame, shown using JPEG 100% quality 1x1x1 sampling.

Here is the output from the SDK to DPX stock (Denoise and OLPF comp off.)
http://www.miscdata.com/blogimgs/R3DStock-DPX.jpg

Same DPX output with (Denoise at max -RN6.)
http://www.miscdata.com/blogimgs/R3DDeNoise6-DPX.jpg

The size of the JPEG is more telling than the image change, JPEG drop form 349kB to 299kB, the cleaner image being easier to compress.

Here is the OLPF set to maximum and exported as DPX. I don't like these results, while it does look a little sharper the highlights get halos (not recommended.)
http://www.miscdata.com/blogimgs/R3DOLPF3-DPX.jpg

As you are looking to sharpen full resolution decodes, you can use CineForm RAW (-r option, I also left the -RN6 switch on.) As SDK doesn't have RAW these a back samples to CFA bayer before CineForm compression. Size reduction is significant, the DPX files were 36,866kB, and the CineForm RAW only 1,943kB (Filmscan 2), yet the quality is basically the same. With CineForm RAW you get to choose the demoasic filter during post, so sharpen can be controlled (without adding additional filters) at any time. The controls are with Premiere, set per project, custom set per clip, or global set with the SetActiveMetadata tool. http://www.miscdata.com/blogimgs/SetActiveMetadata.png.

These are two frame exported frames frame the same CineForm RAW encode using demosaic filters CineForm Advanced Detail 1 (default)
http://www.miscdata.com/blogimgs/CineFormDetail1.jpg

and CineForm Advanced Detail 3
http://www.miscdata.com/blogimgs/CineFormDetail3.jpg

This last image extracts more details/sharpness than using OLPF compenstaion, without causing the halos. If you want a extra but of sharpness to your CineForm RAW by default, you can specify the demosaic to use in the script. +DEMO=0x4 is for Detail 1, +DEMO=0x5 is for Detail 2 (not shown), and +DEMO=0x6 is for Detail 3.

Of course none of this prevents you adding more sharpness in post, probably where it should be added.

[alexx_hg]

Many thanks David, exactly the controls we have needed. We are there. thank you

alex

[Kenn Michael]

Great new additions David, thanks!

So I got the .mov file issue sort of fixed. I realized that the virtual machine I was working on did not infact have QT installed on it. I installed quicktime and the .mov was created as expected. The issue now is that I get an error when opening the .mov file:

The movie could not be opened.
This is not a movie file.

The filesize is correct (compared to an .avi of the same file), but the file won't open in anything on the Mac side, or the Windows side.

[David Newman]

Please email a short sample of the MOV, and we try and determine what is happening under emulation (as it is working fine natively.)

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

This goes out to all CineForm users using build 16... Is it safe to upgrade to build 16 yet? Just want to make sure that it plays 100% nicely with CineForm first.

Thanks guys.

[Thor Wixom]

Christopher,

So far so good. Just transferred 5 days worth of footage from a feature (about 1 TB) to ExpressFiles. It took about 12 hours going across two FW400 connections, on a dual core, dual processor machine. In other words, not a fast machine... probably considered average by most standards.

-Thor

[Mike McCarthy]

I successfully converted an hour of Build 16 4k footage to Cineform 4:4:4 HD avi files last weekend, with almost no effort, now that the new script even has a gui.

[David Newman]

New betas for CineForm PC products available, these all include the Red Conversion (R2CF tool) and simple batch scripting for convert all your R3D to fast and easy to use CineForm AVIs.

NEO and Prospect versions 3.4.2.181:
NEO HD http://www.miscdata.com/cineform/NHDb181.zip
NEO 4K http://www.miscdata.com/cineform/N4Kb181.zip
Prospect HD http://www.miscdata.com/cineform/PHDb181.zip
Prospect 4K http://www.miscdata.com/cineform/P4Kb181.zip

These will likely be the official release versions early next week.

[David Wilson]

Thanks again...

[David Newman]

To All,

Now that most of the base features are in, and we know HDLink integration is wanted by many (and coming soon), and audio is still off until a R3D SDK fix, what is the next feature you need to make your Red workflow even easier?

[Thor Wixom]

David,

I'd like to see better handling of 24p (23.976) across the board. This would include user selectable pulldown (in it's various flavors)... if not directly playable from the timeline, then as rendering (exporting) options. I'd like to use various framerates within the same timeline, and have all the proper pulldowns applied upon export.

I would like to have better support of "Interpretting" 24p footage as 29.97. You can do it now, but it messes up the graphic representation of the footage on the timeline. For example, when you interpret the footage and then try to put markers in it, the markers get placed relative to the original timing of the clip, not the relative timing of the interpretted clip.

Also, if Cineform could write a plug-in that syncs audio that was recorded to an external device, that would completely rock!

And of course, support for Vista 64 would be nice, too.

I realize that these requests might be more Adobe requests than Cineform requests... but it can hurt to put the discussion out there.

-Thor

[David Newman]

Thanks Thor,

Yes there are mostly issues with Premiere, not with media within.

Regarding pulldown, I gather are talking about adding pulldown to 23.976 sources, as we have the extaction of pulldown pretty much covered. Via AJA Xena we do add pulldown for an option for play-out. Yet I can see benefits for 24p source in 60i timeline auto-adding pulldown rather than Premiere's frame blend approach. Exporting 24p as 60i is something we can do (we had to do that for HDV exports, we just have added it elsewhere yet.) So some of that we can address if Adobe doesn't in CS4.

[Mike Harrington]

So some of that we can address if Adobe doesn't in CS4.

thats the thing I like about cineform is that it is more than a codec company
it's a Premiere tweaker as well

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

David perhaps this does not relate to a Red workflow specifically but it does form part of it.

I would like to see all the tools like CF2DPX & DPX2CF and so on move to the HD Link GUI and work the way the rest of the conversions do. Also perhaps some people not familiar with a CF workflow find it confusing to have settings spread across many panels. For eg the SetActiveMetadata panel has one set of settings and the scripts for Accelerated and Fast quality playback are seperate to that.

Perhaps merge this all into one UI that replaces HD Link but I know this is a big undertaking...

[Mike Harrington]

I second that request....

cineform with the use of scripts scattered about seems a little unpolished....we all know the guts of it work great

If you want to market it to Mac guys you have to make it shiny....
(dosn't even have to work...just give it a cool UI.....)

[Thor Wixom]

Okay... I just thought of one very specific tweak that would be very helpful.

Sometimes, an .R3D file won't convert properly to CF. When this happens, the batch hangs. You have to manually cancel that file before the R2CF converter will move to the next file.

This becomes a real problem when you're expecting all your express files to be waiting for you in the morning, and you wake up to find that after a few files, it hung. Suddenly you're a day behind in your editing schedule.

It would be great if A) the R2CF converter would "time-out" and automatically move to the next file in the batch, and B) if it would generate a text file at the end of the batch to tell us which .R3D files were problematic.

Then, the batch still processes, and we can quickly check the problem .R3D files in Redcine or Redalert to see if they were important files.

Thoughts or comments are welcome on this one.

-Thor

[Jay A. Kelley]

I have no thoughts on this Thor.. But I can tell you that heartburn at 3am really sucks.

:)

Jay

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

Okay... I just thought of one very specific tweak that would be very helpful.

Sometimes, an .R3D file won't convert properly to CF. When this happens, the batch hangs. You have to manually cancel that file before the R2CF converter will move to the next file.

This becomes a real problem when you're expecting all your express files to be waiting for you in the morning, and you wake up to find that after a few files, it hung. Suddenly you're a day behind in your editing schedule.

It would be great if A) the R2CF converter would "time-out" and automatically move to the next file in the batch, and B) if it would generate a text file at the end of the batch to tell us which .R3D files were problematic.

Then, the batch still processes, and we can quickly check the problem .R3D files in Redcine or Redalert to see if they were important files.

Thoughts or comments are welcome on this one.

-Thor


Yes this would actually really help. I second it.

[David Newman]

It is a good idea, one already partly implemented. The tools already detects several failure types, we just need to address any others. The next revision of the R3D SDK will likely help (hopefully this week.)

[David Newman]

You all asked so nicely.

New verison now has a WatchDog timer.
http://www.miscdata.com/red/R2CFv152.zip. Unzip the contents into: C:\Program Files\CineForm\Tools. To use this you must have NEO 4K or Prospect 4K installed on your Windows OS (trial versions also work.)

This will auto-detect any batch conversion deadlocks for whatever reason, then kill the impacted processes, automatically retry the same conversion, and if that fails, produce a errors.txt file in the output path listing the troubled R3D file(s) before continue with the batch. Nothing will stop the batch short of a power failure (for that you can initiate the batch scripts in your Startup.) Some of these upgrades are internal to the R2CF tool, others are in the scripts, so update them all.

The error log file (which you will only like see with a corrupted R3D) will look like this (inside errors.txt):
failed to convert (9/15/2008 10:23:05 AM): M:\video\Red\A001_C001_071118_001.R3D
failed to convert (9/15/2008 11:05:22 AM): M:\video\Red\A003_C007_071105_001.R3D

I've been thrashing my PC with many conversions all morning without a single error report.

[Lauri Kettunen]

David, Thank you, highly appreciated!

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

Thanks David!

Also is there a way to pause a conversion? I would find this helpful as sometimes I need to allocate resources somewhere else for a few minutes and then resume the conversion.

Thanks.

[David Newman]

I could add a pause option, if I can work out how. Currently doing a Cntrl-C works fine, it will delete the current job in a few second, then restart the script will pick up where is left off. That is a pretty good pause.

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

I could add a pause option, if I can work out how. Currently doing a Cntrl-C works fine, it will delete the current job in a few second, then restart the script will pick up where is left off. That is a pretty good pause.

I suppose that will work. :biggrin:

[Thor Wixom]

David,

You amaze!

-Thor

[slogdog]

Hi David I am new to this whole red and cineform thing I edit in Premier Pro 2.0 on a quad core 64 bit 4 gig ram lots of hard drive system. The problem that I am encountering is when I go to make a 1080p 4 22 file from our 4 k footage we shot over the weekend it stops converting around file 61 or so. can you tell me what in the heck is going on with that so I can get to work? thanks

[David Newman]

Maybe the latest R2CF will fix that. See this post http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=285702&postcount=180. It could be that something is wrong with that 61st clip. The new version of the convertor will no longer be held up by troubled files.

[Adrian Van Rossum]

G'day Adobe afficionados

Have been testing Prospect 4K for a week and so far like what I see. Cineform Express files get spat out fast from the R3Ds and Cineform filters are a big plus. Curious to see how the post-SDK version will handle 4 channels of audio in the conversion to Cineform files and on the Premiere import. The wishlist for us would be Prospect 'New Project' presets (4K, 2K) at 25 progressive frames-per-second as well as the currently available pre-sets of 24p and 23.976p. Otherwise Cineform makes life in Adobiverse far more user-friendly and quicker than having to render out of RedCine. Looking forward to watching it evolve.

[David Newman]

Hi Adrian,

We should add those presets as they often requested, yet it is a thirty second task to make this presets yourself. Just use the Custom tab when creating a new 2K/4K project and set the frame rate to 25, then save the preset.

[Adrian Van Rossum]

G'day David

My bad .. missed the 'Custom' tab when setting up the Premiere Pro test project. We have always played it safe and used pre-sets to ensure conformity - time for us to be more adventurous on the RAW coalface. The 25fps thing is just a hangover from editing in a PAL world all these years and it makes migration to DVD simpler in PAL-land. Looking forward (like most people in this thread) to your take on the R3D audio integration. Cheers ...

[David Newman]

No worries, I know about the PAL addiction, I grew up in Perth.

[Jay A. Kelley]

David,

Two things:

I'd like to add my voice to Thor's about being able to match multiple external audio files to a cineform file when transcoding. This could save an amazing amount of time.. BTW How many audio files can you attach? Can a script be made for this sort of thing?

Also I'd like to know where you are with AJA support? I know it's moving along.

Jay

[David Newman]

We have AJA Xena HS, LH, LHe support, have done for years. AJA Xena 2K will likely hit beta in a couple of weeks.

AVIs and attaching audio. Embedded stereo is the easiest, as most AVI tools are expecting that, yet we do support up to 8 channels into an AVI within the Premiere importer. The problem is Premiere only support stereo or 5.1 tracks, is it is annoying to map. In other camera systems that have four channels we find it is best to place the back stereo pair into a separate WAV file (with front channels in the AVI) -- we will likely do the same of R3D embedded audio. For dual system system audio we do need to sync them. Jay (or anyone), can you provide sample of R3D with companion BWF or simple timecoded audio.

[Jay A. Kelley]

David, I will attempt to do what you are asking for today. I'll use the RED AND the Cantar for a test. to keep it small, I'll shoot at 2k so things do not get out of hand.

Personally I would go for the 4 channels of audio as this would be the best solution. However, the Standard is to provide a two channel mix down. Even today this is true, and the ISO tracks are meant to be for later use.

In a perfect world (And since we all know Cineform IS perfect :umm: ) it would be cool to CHOOSE either 2 channel or 4 channel. This way those working with an editing system that can support it will go with 4, and those that can only do two will do so.

Ok this will be a HUGE deal to put together, but I'm going to get started now (Not much going on today).

Thor if I pull this off you OWE ME LUNCH...

Off to work.... Later...

Jay

[Thor Wixom]

Jay,

If you pull this off, I owe you breakfast, lunch, dinner, and a 2 night stay at the Wixom Luxor.

-Thor

[Jay A. Kelley]

My first issue so far is that the EdgeCode does not seem to enguage the Cantar... shit...

Gotta call tech support

Jay

[Jay A. Kelley]

Well it was educational. In doing this "little project" (3 hours) I found out that while RED did engauge the TimeCode out, the failed to allow you to select EDGECode out. This is important since EDGECode is like Record Run. Many recorders (Like the Cantar) will pick up the timecode running from a camera, and automatically start recording themselves. And, when you stop the RED the Cantar senses that and stops with it.

Without this ability, the recorders lose this feature. I've written Stuart and hopefully he'll be able to get the running.

This did not stop me from doing my test though. For now I have just sent two audio files with matching timecode.

It is my hope that David will be able to do the following:
An R3D file is selected.
Program scans directory containing Audio files and looks for any with matching timecode. These files (With Audio Metadata still in tact? or at least the filenames) are then attached to the r3d file in the order they were found.

Then R3D file is transcoded with Audio files matching the timecode.

You know, if this works, this will be a utility that is going to drive a lot of post folks out of their minds. This has always been a HUGE deal in getting audio files synced up with picture.

This SEEMS like a straightforward procedure, but I have one thing I cannot get my head around:

David, because these are two different sources sharing the same timecode, the order that things are done it is important.

First the record on camera is hit (This is generating time of day timecode)
THEN the Cantar is hit (Getting timecode jammed from RED)
THEN cut RED
THEN cut Cantar

This means that the video starts at a different time than the audio file, and the RED stops at a different time as well.. So you have different start and end points. The Middle of the files will match, but... Well you see the problem.

IF the Edgecode on the RED was egaged then I think the two sources would share the STARTING timecode. But the truth is that a lot of sound people would not want this feature cause it would mean they are tied to the camera.

I'm looking forward to seeing how this all works out.

David you will have what you need in 30min. I sent it the usual way.. I will hang out here for an hour so if you need something different let me know

Jay

[David Newman]

Thanks Jay,

What I got was 14 seconds of 2K video 23.976p starting at 03:38:13:20 and two mono WAVs starting just before at 03:38:12:00 that goes for 19 seconds. Does that seem correct? When I manually sync it the time difference from the start points is 78 frames not 44 frame suggested by the timecode. Our first issue, there don't seem to be sharing the same timecode.

The audio was running at 48048Hz, is that correct? If recompute the timecode from samples since midnight, I get 03:38:11:00, sync offset 68 frame (now only 10 frames out.) Are you sure the camera and audio sampler are synced? It is disturbing the frames field is 0, can you please do one more capture, I want see that audio device is reading the frames field.

The 48048 maybe an issue if mixed with camera audio which I believe is 48000Hz. 48048 is the number samples for 24 frames, not 1 second record time. Audio is more confusing to me than video. :)

[Jay A. Kelley]

David

I'm going to redo this and be more careful the 2nd time.. i am also going to add some more inputs for more tracks.

Jay

[Jay A. Kelley]

David,

I sent a new file..

Jay

[David Newman]

I see, BWFs always has :00 in the frame count, need to determine which field has the sample offset. Jay, thanks for providing these files.

[Jay A. Kelley]

So you all know, I am trying to put the engineers at Aaton together with our resident genius Mr. Newman.. Hopefully with their collective smarts, along with the files I sent, something can be created.

Thor, get that food ready!

Jay

[Thor Wixom]

Jay,

You're the man!

I'm syncing audio for a feature right now... it's so tedious!

I'm syncing in FCP for the actual edit, and then again in Premiere (Cineform Express files) for some testing.

If you efforts yeild a viable Cineform solution, I'll throw in some fresh baked cookies!

-Thor

[Hans von Sonntag]

Thor,

I'm wondering how you are syncing soundfiles in PP, since PP cannot read TC in sound files. But then I guess you are syncing your footage using a slate, hence your "tedious" workflow.

If you, Jay or anyone else has an idea how to make PP reading TC in sound files or a clever workaround I would really like to know.

Hans

[Jay A. Kelley]

Hans, that's exactly what we are attacking right now. The goal is to do it during transcoding so that once the file is made the audio is "Baked" into the file and loaded in for editing. From what Mr. Newman is saying, different editing programs will accept different amounts of audio tracks. However, once the "framework" of the program is compelted (I.E. the ability to read the timecode of the selected file and line it up with the new cineform video file). The number of audio tracks, order of tracks, etc. Should be pretty easy.

This is an excitig concept, let's see where it goes.

Jay

Jay

[Thor Wixom]

Thor,

I'm wondering how you are syncing soundfiles in PP, since PP cannot read TC in sound files. But then I guess you are syncing your footage using a slate, hence your "tedious" workflow.

If you, Jay or anyone else has an idea how to make PP reading TC in sound files or a clever workaround I would really like to know.

Hans

Hans,

Yes, I am syncing manually to the slate. Argh! :-)

Here's another thought, but it would require some integration with Red, a digital slate manufacturer, and possibly the NLE companies, and the audio device manufacturers...

Have a digital signal transmit from the slate to the USB on the Red, as well as to the audio device. It would place a unique time coded marker on both the audio file, and the .R3D file... they would both be "stamped" with the same marker. That marker would never repeat, so it would always be obvious which audio file goes with which .R3D file.

Do any of the devices mentioned already have the ability to send or receive uniquie markers? Could this be as simple as a programming thing? Or would a standard need to be developed?

-Thor

[Jay A. Kelley]

Communication between Cineform and Aaton has begun!! (Giving everyone a play by play here...)

I'm most nervous at this point, hoping there are no real large roadblocks.

This new utility needs a name. I nominate US the wonderful, all knowing, all seeing, all natural, REDUsers... To name it.

How about ..... George...

Or better yet... Waffles!!

Jay

[Jay A. Kelley]

Seriously,

perhaps a nod to our french partners who are helping in this endevor... Here are the french words for "sound"

résonner, tonale, sonnons, sonnent, sonnez, sonner

Cine-Tonale ?
CineSonnet ?
CineSonnez?

I need someone that speaks french!

Jay

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

Status report....? :-)

[Jay A. Kelley]

Aaton jumped right in and answered all of David's question. They mentioned this would all be easier if RED could insert the date into the user bits. I wrote Stuart about this and he said it was possible.

Does not mean it cannot be done as it is, but you will have to be careful with shoots that cover multiple days until the date gets put into the timecode from RED

Jay

[Kaku Ito]

Hi David,

The beta links you posted the last time are not working. Probably removed up on the new one? Please let us know where the new ones are.

Also, the download page email notification scheme seems don't work for me.

Kaku

[David Taylor]

Direct links to the latest releases of Prospect 4K and Neo 4K that also include the latest release of R2CF are here:

Prospect 4K: http://02bb6aa.netsolhost.com/downloads/Prospect4Kv342b181-080916.zip
Neo 4K: http://02bb6aa.netsolhost.com/downloads/NEO4Kv342b181-080916.zip

[Kaku Ito]

Direct links to the latest releases of Prospect 4K and Neo 4K that also include the latest release of R2CF are here:

Prospect 4K: http://02bb6aa.netsolhost.com/downloads/Prospect4Kv342b181-080916.zip
Neo 4K: http://02bb6aa.netsolhost.com/downloads/NEO4Kv342b181-080916.zip

David,

Thank you very much!

[Kaku Ito]

David,

I tried to look around but I couldn't find how to authorize the mac codec with the serial number.

Is there any instruction on your site?

edit:oops, I found the Authenticator.

[David Newman]

Here is a new version:
http://www.miscdata.com/red/R2CFv154.zip. Unzip the contents into: C:\Program Files\CineForm\Tools. To use this you must have NEO 4K or Prospect 4K installed on your Windows OS (trial version also work.)

No new features yet, but more solid code and a little better error reporting if something goes wrong.

[Kaku Ito]

David,

Since we want to get into supporting, selling Cineform seriously, what is your recommendation with video display method for color grading on Mac?

I was thinking Multibridge Pro/Eclipse with Astro 24 inch monitor, or HDLinkPro with Apple Cinema Display route.

[David Newman]

Kaku, I'm not that knowlegde of monitor selection, particularly as the use of CineForm should change that decision form a traditional workflow.

[David Newman]

Updates flying. Thank you for the emails, all feedback is welcome. It is the feedback that is driving all the updates, feature requests (like Jay's we are still working on) and bug reports are very helpful. I had it pointed out that 4:4:4 4096x2304 (16x9) conversions without scaling weren't working, yet Raw conversion of the same clip worked fine. It seems the 32-bit address space was limiting the R2CF tool, but I have fix in the issue with this build: http://www.miscdata.com/red/R2CFv155.zip. While no one needs to do 4:4:4 at 4K, RAW being a much better option (see here http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=283812&postcount=161) it is nice that you can do that testing for yourself. In my last test a sample 4K 16x9 encode produced 70MB/s, which the same file RAW encode is 27MB/s (both Filmscan 1) -- same quality IMHO.

[Troy Smith]

David, I'm wondering if the decklink Intesity Pro works with cineform? if not, will it in the future?

thanks

[David Newman]

We capture from the Decklink Intensity Pro in HDLink, we just haven't completed Premiere Pro integration for using it as a monitoring card. There are BlackMagic driver issues that did slow us down, yet we have a plan to work around them. Only issue is have enough engineering staff to do it quickly (and we are in a hiring mode.)

[Sean]

I loved my Cineform HDV tool to turn HV20 footage into beautiful 24P MOV files for my Avid. Does the new Cineform product for r3d's have an advantage if you work in Avid and not in Premiere? One thing sounds good at least, from what I've read here: there is a very fast conversion of the r3d's to MOV files, and I like that.

[David Newman]

Everything we are doing also generates MOVs as an option. In any of our batch scripts, just change line 13 which has = ".avi" to = ".mov", now you can quickly and similar produce CineForm MOVs. So not just for Adobe Premiere. We have also been working with Avid MetaFuze and ALE creation but those features aren't in public beta yet, but more direct Avid support is coming.

[Kaku Ito]

Kaku, I'm not that knowlegde of monitor selection, particularly as the use of CineForm should change that decision form a traditional workflow.

I see, can you kindly tell me then how we should setup monitors to do offline color grading (then takes stills for sample and do the destructive grading on online system)? What would you prefer? Calibrated Desktop monitor?

I checked around more and found out that there was a few Sony monitors that are compatible to RGB 4:4:4. I have BVM-D24, but I should have bought BVM-F24. Also, BVM-A20F1M(still in production?) is 4:4:4 compatible.

[David Newman]

Jay,

It looks like camera Build 17 might help with some of those audio timecode issues we are having.

[David Newman]

I see, can you kindly tell me then how we should setup monitors to do offline color grading (then takes stills for sample and do the destructive grading on online system)? What would you prefer? Calibrated Desktop monitor?

I checked around more and found out that there was a few Sony monitors that are compatible to RGB 4:4:4. I have BVM-D24, but I should have bought BVM-F24. Also, BVM-A20F1M(still in production?) is 4:4:4 compatible.

All desktop monitors are 4:4:4, that only becomes an issue if you are looking for a 10-bit display and DVI is only 8-bit. There are so very few 10-bit displays, even via dual link. Now you don't really need a 10-bit display, a good full gamut callibrated 8-bit LCD will often work fine in a pinch, but I'm liking these new HP Dreamcolor monitors that get 10-bit via DisplayPort or HMDI 1.3 -- I think this is how we will be color-correcting in the near future.

P.S. HP, get a few of those monitors and we will make it easy for people to use them. ;)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Unfortunately, the HP monitor isn't true 10-bit, only 8-bit with internal dithering. In the OT section there's a thread about the monitor's price drop and this is mentioned there too. I haven't seen one with my own eyes yet, but I'm still curious.

I think for a grading monitor that won't break the bank, a good solution may be a Panasonic xUK pro-series plasma with HDMI 1.3 and SDI input options. Too bad we can't output Redcine / Red Alert through a Kona or Decklink card... Too bad Apple doesn't have any HDMI / 10-bit display card offerings.

[John Tissavary]

Unfortunately, the HP monitor isn't true 10-bit, only 8-bit with internal dithering.

Not true. The Dreamcolor is a 30bit LED backlit panel.

Quote from the HP DreamColor LP2480zx faq:

"A full 30bit pixel is sent from the DreamColor Engine to be displayed on the HP 30-bit LCD panel with no dithering or frame rate control."

I think that's a rather definitive and clear statement.


JT

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jay,

It looks like camera Build 17 might help with some of those audio timecode issues we are having.

I hope so.. Kind of wish I lived out there right now so I could just bring everything over and we could spend the day knockinig this out.

Oh well, I'll upgrade and see what I can pull off for you.

Jay

[David Newman]

Jeff & John,

I've seen the HP DreamColor monitor in action, dithered or not, the results are compelling.


Jay,

You are welcome to visit any time. Hey, next time you camera goes for service, fly out with it, Red is only 40 minute drive north of here.

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

Jay,

It looks like camera Build 17 might help with some of those audio timecode issues we are having.

David now that you have the SDK is it safe to assume that any new camera build is supported by CineForm almost immediately?

[David Newman]

Yes, Build 17 beta works fine also.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Not true. The Dreamcolor is a 30bit LED backlit panel.

Do your research. The display is 30bit internally, which is indeed very impressive, but the panel itself is manufactured by LG and is an 8bit panel, plain and simple.

...Please show me where they're hiding a 30-bit panel in here: LG_Philips_LCD.PDF (http://www.lgphilips-lcd.com/homeContain/jsp/download.jsp?fileName=LG_Philips_LCD.PDF)

In fact, there isn't even a 10-bit 24" display, only 8bit and 6bit.

There are already two other threads discussing this very topic on these forums. A handful of others elsewhere on the net.

HP is indeed stretching the truth here... In the same way most all display manufacturers do.

Anyway, you can choose to believe me or not, at your own peril. I have nothing more to say.

[Gabriele Turchi]

Ahem... I mean, you can make your one light corrections in Finesse, and them export these corrections as a LUT that you can then pull back into premiere and view in REALTIME..


Jay how can you export the color settings from Color Finesse as a LUT?
When you say load it into premiere you mean using the cineform set active metadata control panel right?

Thanks

G

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jay how can you export the color settings from Color Finesse as a LUT?
When you say load it into premiere you mean using the cineform set active metadata control panel right?

Thanks

G

Yes, that's exactly what I mean.

On the "AV Link" module front: I've managed to send David some "usable" data so he can get started on creating the utility program.

I think Thor, who is suffering from matching a lot of Audio/video together can really feel where this program will help, but the implications are much larger than that. Post audio is a VERY weak point across MANY applications, not just one or two.

RED's audio board is going to improve, there's no doubt there. But it will never reach the quality of a premiere recorder/mixer like the Cantar good Sound Devices model. The ability to match up these files during the Cineform Transcode (Or right after) takes away ALL compatibility issue with whatever editor you may be using. Currently the only two programs with decent timecode support are FCP and AVID.

Very exciting stuff.

Jay

[Kaku Ito]

Jeff, my Sony Bravia 52 inch is supposed to be 10 bit panel with HDMI version 1.3a connection. How do you think we can utilize these features?

[Kaku Ito]

ATI claims that their Radion 3800 works with Mac Pro and provide HDMI output. Would this be it with Bravia with 10bit panel?

[David Newman]

Jay how can you export the color settings from Color Finesse as a LUT?
When you say load it into premiere you mean using the cineform set active metadata control panel right?

Thanks

G

We have lot of powerful features like this that we barely scratched the surface in explaining to the users at large. The 3D LUT uses Iridas look files, so any tool that generates these type of look files are compatible with CineForm. In addition to tools that generate Iridas LUT directly, we allow any Premiere compatitible color corrector (32-bit filter only currently) to allow CineForm Prospect 4K to generate the LUT for you. The only operation not support by a single 3D LUT, are windowed based CC, but keying based secondaries work fine. These means any complex color correction, even a filter stack of Color Finesse, CineForm's CC and Adobe internal color filters, can be converted into a single real-time 3D LUT (float point precision) and attached to any CineForm file to be use any any video tool and moved across platform as needed. There is a video in the works that demos all of this.

[Gabriele Turchi]

sorry guys...I did not understood...
so basically how i can generate the LUT from color finesse?
Are you saying that is not available yet?

David i have a problem with the set active metadata control panel in windows XP... when i launch the program it says error....
I have propsect 4K demo installed... i have tried to install it 2 times but nothing... any idea?

(works beautifully in my OSX)

PS:what are the differences between prospect and Neo 4K?

PSS:The metadata function is CPU based or GPU based?...At the moment if i active the metadata in OSX i can't have a realtime playback(only 14fps) on a 444 2k file (mac pro quad core 2.66 Nvidia 7300)...is that correct?...if i disable the metadata i have 24fps...

Thanks!


G

[David Newman]

Gabiele,

The ability to generate LUT from tools like Color Finesse within Prospect 4K has been available for many months (since NAB), just nice documentation on the feature has been missing.

Please talk to support about that error, I've not heard of that before.

Prospect 4K and NEO are very different, more so than I can document here. Very simply Prospect 4K is like a virtual hardware accelerator for Premiere Pro (PC), compared to NEO which is primarily a batch conversion tool, both include the CineForm codecs.

[Gabriele Turchi]

Thanks david

Does exist a kind of quide to how export a lut from color finesse etc...?It is complicated to explain?

PS:What about to play a 2k 444 file at just 12fps in osx on my machine? (having metadata on)..is that the correct performance ? Is a GPU based think or CPU?

Thanks

G

[David Newman]

Not too complex, I let one for the users explain, as I'm about to go out for the day.

OS X running QuickTime (particular QT Player) is SLOW, we clock our codec core playing at 3-4X speed Quicktime chooses to play it -- not a GPU vs CPU issue. We are working with Apple to overcome these silly limitations, but a think the planned Apple overhaul of QT is much needed. FCP is little better, but play is significantly faster on PCs than on the Mac (same code same compiler.) Companies like Iridas, that use our SDK, bypass QuickTime for good performance on Mac and PC.

[Gabriele Turchi]

Thanks david

I'll wait the guide about how create a LUT from program like Finesse from a kind forum user

About Quicktime :I understood that quicktime is slower than windows isng avi , but basically you are saying that at the moment no way to have realtime playback on a 2k using active metadata?

Sorry but i am asking again because i kind of remember that i did some test in the past exporting from redcine at 2k and play it back at 2k in realtime...and now i have reinstalled everything using Leopard so maybe i changed something... but i might be wrong...

Thanks

G

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jeff, my Sony Bravia 52 inch is supposed to be 10 bit panel with HDMI version 1.3a connection. How do you think we can utilize these features?

On the PC, it's as simple as using the proper nVidia or ATI card with HDMI 1.3 output and there are 5 or 6 of those to choose from.

As far as on the Mac, the only option right now would be the ATI 3870 card, but I haven't worked with one enough to know what it will do. I say that if ATI claims it will output full 10bit over the HDMI port, then give it a try. Not only does the card need to support 10bit HDMI output, but the Mac ATI drivers need to provide for the extended color support beyond 8bits/channel as well and I'm not sure that they do.

Upcoming nVidia and ATI cards targeted at both the Mac and PC will have the DisplayPort connector, which is essentially an upgraded DVI-DL system, but it supports higher resolutions and deeper color. Some monitors on the market already have DisplayPort (like the HP DreamColor) and I think there are a few oddball video cards as well. I'm expecting some DisplayPort options from Apple with the next revision to their Mac Pro systems and I think we can expect to see some new Cinema Displays -- Finally! The new Intel "Nehalem" CPUs were supposed to start shipping by the end of this month or early October (to OEMs), but there are lots of rumors going around now saying that they are delayed slightly to the end of the year or even January. So I'm starting to think we won't see new options from Apple until MacWorld in January.

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

Guys I'm working on the video outlining SetActiveMetadata and LUT's and hope to have it finished asap...

Once you understand it it is all very easy. Basically it only works with 32-bit effects.

[David Taylor]

Gabriele and others, we have had a Tech Note explaining how to export a 3D LUT from PPro from stacked color effects for a couple months: https://www.cineform.com/products/TechNotes/3DLUTGeneration.htm. In addition to the Tech Note we'll have a video tutorial in the near future.

It doesn't matter whether you use Color Finesse, PPro's color features, or CineForm's color correction, you can export the stacked color adjustments that are applied on the PPro timeline to an Iridas-format 3D LUT that we use for our Active Metadata controls.

[Gabriele Turchi]

Great!

Thanks David!

G

[Jay A. Kelley]

I wish Color Finesse would be more aggressive in it's development in regard to the plugin

Jay

[David Newman]

Thanks david

I'll wait the guide about how create a LUT from program like Finesse from a kind forum user

About Quicktime :I understood that quicktime is slower than windows isng avi , but basically you are saying that at the moment no way to have realtime playback on a 2k using active metadata?

Sorry but i am asking again because i kind of remember that i did some test in the past exporting from redcine at 2k and play it back at 2k in realtime...and now i have reinstalled everything using Leopard so maybe i changed something... but i might be wrong...

Thanks

G

It should be RT on most highend Macs, just that QuickTime is crippling Macs from doing much more, as equivalent PC can near play 4K with Active Metadata in real-time. A 2K 4:4:4 sequence typically only requires a fast dual core without Active Metadata, and about 20-30% more CPU load with Activate Metadata (which is N-way threaded, so it scales well.)

[Tom Lowe]

David, have you guys started looking at the new Canon 5D Mark II? I wonder if video can be captured from its HDMI port with less compression and better color sampling? The camera apparently records H264. Would there be any advantage in transcoding that H264 to Cineform or any other intermediate codec for editing in timelines?

[David Newman]

I'm sure capturing the HMDI feed would work fine (but does it have burn-ins on it?) Converting the H264 to CineForm is a good idea as H264 is a pain to edit, the issue today is it isn't wrapped like an AVCHD file so HDLink won't convert it (yet.)