A request of the RED mini

[Obin Olson]

Guys, please whatever you do keep the 35mm sensor size on the Mini. Even if your output is redcode 720p I would take that any day over a 2/3rd inch cmos or ccd camera that had huge resolution. it's the LOOK of RAW and sensor size that our market has been lacking for years. Resolution is NOT king IMHO for quality work that clients respect, and help you as a production company or a DOP to keep getting work.

RED 1 #610

[RED-Tank]

I support this one too.

let's hope...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1750

[Clayton Harper]

I would love this thing to be like the size of very small camcorder and just shoot nikon glass or dare I say it: Leica M mount. :huh:

[jbeale]

If it shoots Canon, Nikon, Leica etc. glass, can it be called "pocket sized" ? Maybe we should measure the size of Jim's pockets :)

If they're going for super-compact I think a fixed lens would be the choice. I always loved my Olympus Stylus Epic which fit smoothly into a small pocket, but don't use it anymore since film is too much hassle.

[RED-Tank]

I suspect the word "pocket" doesn't really mean it could fit into anyone's pocket comfortably, probably it means the smallest camera you can get for professional cameraman.

The key word should be "professional" as Jim mentioned; REDCODE is definitely one of it, len mount should be considered the must too. If we take out the len mount just because it can't fit into pocket, then we might need to take out mini-XLR and use built-in mic, use a joystick and tons of menu (to meet pro need) instead of dedicated button & switches.

By the way, if Jim can remain the sensor, keep the len mount and mini-XLR, I am very happy to enlarge my left pocket just to fit in this "professional pocket camera". :D

[kmikami]

Why even bother with on-camera sound?

[Priyesh P.]

I`m thinking of it as an a-minima with optical qualities of 35mm, PL mount is a must.

[liquidigital]

I'm with Obin. The 35 sized sensor appeals to me for so many other reasons, and if it is in the pocket cam, I'm buying it. In regards to lenses, how cool would it be to have primes like this made from Red...

http://www.photoscala.de/node/430

[Adam C Lubkin]

I don't see how you're going to get a full-sized sensor and PL mount in a tiny package. I'm guessing the sensor will be the 2k portion of the Mysterium, and it will use 16mm lenses.

[Jonathan Wheeler]

Just curious, since I couldn't find it through a search, where did they originally mention the "pocket" version? Just wanted to see what the red team said about it to get this started.

[Scott H. Jones]

It was announced at NAB and at the FCP Users Group Supermeet

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=32153&highlight=pocket#post32153

[Kevin Halverson]

I don't see how you're going to get a full-sized sensor and PL mount in a tiny package. I'm guessing the sensor will be the 2k portion of the Mysterium, and it will use 16mm lenses.

That would be an ideal product and something that I would be very excited about.

[dalemccready]

how about a camera that took away all the stuff other than PL, Lens, and the ability to shoot Redcode RAW? Take away all the post processing to output different formats and I think it'd be getting a whole lot smaller. Optional EVF or monitor as is now on the RedOne

(always think of the movie The Big Red One every time I type the camera's name :biggrin: )

[Obin Olson]

Adam. When you say " I don't see how your going to get a full-sized sensor in a tiny package" would that mean you have built a camera and could not make the sensor fit?

[Poi Boy]

gotta keep it 4K.
-A

[Nathan Troutman]

My hope for the RED pocket-camera is a 4k Redcode RAW recording VX-2000/FX1 hand-held body style that would have a removeable Red-drive, XLR audio, an integrated lens, 2-stage ND filter, Auto-focus, shot programming function of the FX1/Z1, integrated LCD display, and a waveform view available via the LCD (why hasn't anyone done this yet? Zebras are great but why not just look at the whole waveform?) I can live without an integrated lens but I think they camera should have some kind of glass that comes with it. There are times that in terms of ease of use, I'd much rather have an XH-A1 than XL-H1.

As much as I hate sony, you have to give them credit for creating the form factor for the VX-1000 and VX-2000 that has opened up this area of videography. I'm sure RED can REVolutionize it!

[MDP]

It would be nice to get a few more details from someone, I am considering buying an hvx but hell if red mini is coming out I can wait!

[Phillip Hudson]

It would be nice to get a few more details from someone, I am considering buying an hvx but hell if red mini is coming out I can wait!

This is my dilemma as well. I'm on the verge of shelling out 10-20k for a full HD package. A Red One is out of my range, but perhaps the Red Pocket will be within.

That said, my main concerns are:

1) Variable frame rate (up to 60 at least)
2) The most important: Being able to attach my Nikon lenses. I really don't want to keep using this 35mm adapter to achieve a short DoF. Which in the end, for me at least, is the deciding factor to making video look like film and less like video.

If it's coming out within a year, I'll wait and continue to rent for my HD needs. Please, Red... tell us if the Pocket Red will come out within the next year. Purty please? With sugar on top? :clown2:

[Adam C Lubkin]

Adam. When you say " I don't see how your going to get a full-sized sensor in a tiny package" would that mean you have built a camera and could not make the sensor fit?

No, if I meant that I would have said "I built a camera and could not make the sensor fit." When you put quotation marks around a misquotation of what I said, is that because my actual words wouldn't fit? For starters, a PL mount isn't pocket-sized, nor are any PL lenses that I've seen.

I don't mean to be a smartass but that post was kind of asking for it.

[Ken Corben]

Just curious, since I couldn't find it through a search, where did they originally mention the "pocket" version? Just wanted to see what the red team said about it to get this started.

My internet research uncovered "pocket" as an earlier quote and/or misprint. Ted and other RED Team members were quick to annunciate "compact" in all the following interviews and statements.

Professional Compact Camera

[Adam C Lubkin]

My internet research uncovered "pocket" as an earlier quote and/or misprint. Ted and other RED Team members were quick to annunciate "compact" in all the following interviews and statements.

Professional Compact Camera

That's the first I've heard of the correction, but if true I'm glad to hear it. Of course it's all interpretation, but "pocket" makes it seem too small whereas "compact" leaves open many intruiging possibilities.

[Brainstorm]

My internet research uncovered "pocket" as an earlier quote and/or misprint. Ted and other RED Team members were quick to annunciate "compact" in all the following interviews and statements.

Professional Compact Camera

Howdy Sharkguy,

If you're information is correct, it's a very interesting "update". I've seen two NAB 2007 interviews with Ted Schilowitz where he still referred to this upcoming development as a "pocket camera". Where do you hear the change to "compact"?

It would be of interest to a great number of people if this could be confirmed.

Cheers
Brainstorm

[Ken Corben]

My bad guys,

I replayed the web video link I saved from last week and due to a combination of poor audio and vicodin for my recent illness I heard compact when Ted says, "pocket"

I apologize for my mistake.

[Stephen Gentle]

Something more integrated that the RED ONE, and about the size and price of an HVX, with 1080p or 2K resolution redcode raw recoding would be awesome.

Or something the size of the HV20 - but that's impossible ;)...

[Brainstorm]

My bad guys,

I replayed the web video link I saved from last week and due to a combination of poor audio and vicodin for my recent illness I heard compact when Ted says, "pocket"

I apologize for my mistake.

Hey Sharkguy... I'm glad you were having "good hallucinations" under the influence of your medication! Hmmmm.... Red compact.... hmmmm..... compact.... not pocket.... compact... hmmm.... Red compact....

Hope you're feeling a bit better too!

Cheers
Brainstorm

[MDP]

"Something more integrated that the RED ONE, and about the size and price of an HVX, with 1080p or 2K resolution redcode raw recoding would be awesome."

Size and price yes, but I am pretty sure (as stated before) we will see redcode 4k...4k is one of the biggies in their business plan and to offer 4k for even cheaper, well its yet to be determined but many of us low-indie filmmakers are hoping for it.

To think what Red One will do for the professional's who can afford it, think about the even smaller guys who do all their shooting on an HVX or DVX even...to bring a RED into that playing field would completely change the way how student or first time shorts would look.

In a few short years you'll have first year's complaining that the 4k projection on their first artsy fartsy film noir silent didn't do it justice blah blah blah. I am hoping for that day soon...that is cheap 4k, not more horrible student films!!

[Phillip Hudson]

Whether "pocket" or "compact", the fact is that they stressed "professional". There are NO professional cameras with fixed lenses, only prosumer ones. I doubt RED will introduce the first fixed lens "professional" camera, rofl. Still, it entertains me to read all the wild predictions yall are makin.

[garageman]

Something more integrated that the RED ONE, and about the size and price of an HVX, with 1080p or 2K resolution redcode raw recoding would be awesome.

Or something the size of the HV20 - but that's impossible ;)...

Isn't the RED camera already about the size of an HVX?

[Jeremy Hughes]

gotta keep it 4K.
-A

That'll really kill the sales of the RED ONE.

[Stephen Gentle]

Isn't the RED camera already about the size of an HVX?

The RED with a small prime is, but once you add the RED-DRIVE, the rail system, batteries, and a zoom lens it starts to get a bit bulky. I was thinking more of an HVX size for the whole system.

[garageman]

The RED with a small prime is, but once you add the RED-DRIVE, the rail system, batteries, and a zoom lens it starts to get a bit bulky. I was thinking more of an HVX size for the whole system.


MINI RAILS & MINI DRIVEr

[RED-Tank]

hm.. I hope it is much much smaller then HVX, I believe RED can make it especially after taking out the tape & P2 slot, remove the fixed len. wow it is really compact & in almost pocket size.

4k ? no no, REDONE and mini-RED should live happily together, each target different users. 2k or 1080p for mini-RED will be the heaven gift, but please keep the 35mm sensor, so we still get the "full frame" image but in lower resolution...

oh Jim, speculating is killing the speculator.

[Vincent Rice]

You cannot have a pocket sized camera with a PL mount. Why are people having a hard time accepting this?

[Bruce Allen]

You cannot have a pocket sized camera with a PL mount. Why are people having a hard time accepting this?

Because if you take a Nikon D40 or Canon 400, saw off the viewfinder and take off the lens you COULD fit it in a big pocket?

Your lens can sit in your other pocket until you're ready to shoot ;)

Because people would prefer a slightly bigger camera with a PL mount to a smaller camera without one?

Because the Red One is a little bit too big to carry around with you in weird areas of Africa without security? Because we really don't need a ton of HD-SDI ports, 4 XLR inputs, RAW ports, multiple storage options, etc?

To be honest, if they make a fixed-lens one with a fast lens and give it a decent sensor size for nice Bokeh, that's fine with me. If they said it was pocket-sized but asked me to keep the hard drive and battery on a little belt or something, that'd be fine with me too.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[RED-Tank]

>>Your lens can sit in your other pocket until you're ready to shoot ;)

Thank you & well say Bruce, this is exactly what I outline the "professional pocket camera" in my speculation :D. In fact if this cam keeps full-frame sensor in it then it can't be made in any true pocket size with or without fixed len.

Vinney, perhaps we all should focus on the word of "professional" rather then "pocket" for this mini-RED... I mean "speculating" rather then "focus" ;p.

"professional", such a interesting description for a "pocket" camera.

[Kyle_Doris]

the larger the sensor, the more heat, right?

wouldn't the size of the sensor depend a lot on how much heat the camera is producing? obviously the larger the sensor the better but we don't want the thing to fry an egg! ;)

[Mark K.]

Jim said "pocket", so in the spirit of the wild speculation that makes this forum so entertaining I'm gonna roll with this:

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/5564/miniredbe6.jpg

A JVC GZ-HD7esque "pocket" camera, that uses a built-in, broadcast quality lens and the Mysterium 35mm sensor to record 2k REDCODE footage in variable framerates, to an onboard 120gb hard-drive. It would include 2x XLR inputs, full manual controls and support RED DRIVE storage options. All for a retail price of around $4,000 USD!

[RED-Tank]

Ohh.. Grug, why do you want to break my heart to make it fixed len...

But this one looks very impressive, USD4,000, deal !

[Phillip Hudson]

Again, I will point out that there are NO "professional" cameras with a fixed lens. A fixed lens will make it a prosumer camera. I will be saddened if the RED TWO mini/pocket/compact or whatever you want to call it has one.

It CAN still be compact if it has interchangeable lenses:

Simply put lens in left pocket, camera in right. Join them together and you'll become Chinpokomon Master and defeat the Evil Power.

[Craig Schober]

Vinney, perhaps we all should focus on the word of "professional" rather then "pocket" for this mini-RED... I mean "speculating" rather then "focus" ;p.

if red made an announcement that they were working on another "professional" cam and said nothing else, no one would be that surprised. the next detail revealed would be that it's "pocket-sized" but you want us to focus on the first fact that it's "professional". everything red does is professional from their redone down to their stickers. we can wish all we want but they wouldn't have said "pocket-sized" if they didn't mean it.

swapping a lens on and off everytime you want to use the camera would be terrible. the point of pocket-sized isn't just for looks or weight, it's for convenience too.

[RED-Tank]

We all believe RED is very professional, in fact I would even say they are increditable insane !! ha haa..

I think so far the speculation have two groups here, one is wondering about what Jim means of "professional" (inc me), and another one is very humble to the word "pocket".

Let's treat our speculation a bit professional here. how do we measure the size of pocket ? whose pocket is the "standard" or acceptable size for everyone ? I am a tiny guy wearing size-M t-shirt, the biggest pocket from my jacket is hardly more then 5 inches in height & width (I guess Jim's pocket is at least 12 inches HxW, ha ha). So whose pocket are we talking about ?

That is why I find it is difficult to talk about size and the definition of "pocket". I would rather take Jim's word as "very compact, probably the most smallest pro equipment you can get in today technology."

And I would rather discuss what "professional feature" it would have.

- 2k, 1080p or 4k (if it is 4k, then it will be seen as an upgrade of REDONE)
- variable framerate ? 25, 30, 50, 60, 120, or gozilla 500 fps ?
- interchangeable len mount (please,a must for pro as many here pointed out)
- is it as modular as REDONE to have EVF, LCD, storage, battery & etc built apart ?

And again, since it is "professional", if I were a good DP, will I satisfy to have a very small camera that can fit in my pocket (okay, I will have to enlarge my T-shirt's pocket) or don't I need to add on stuffs like mattebox, ND, big mic (with windshield ?) and etc to fully utilise this "professional" equipment ?

Please don't tell me you don't need any of those extra equipment and you can take "professional" image with this new "pocket" sized camera. This is far far away from whatever I can imagine and if this is the case, I beg everyone hold down your REDONE reservation and wait for mini-RED since it does everything you professional wanted in a tiny little pocket...

[RED-Tank]

Up to here, I certainly have a request to RED-mini,

keep it secret, keep it safe and secure, don't let anyone break into RED again! ha ha.. I wonder after the NAB2007, RED may soon get some attack from all over the place.

I support Jim keeping everything quiet (pointed out in another thread), let the jobless people like me keep speculating at here :p.

But an estimated price range could be helpful for many of us if this info can be released in within months (hee hee hee.. based on the estimated price, we would know whether mini-RED is an upgrade of REDONE or a device for different market).

[Phillip Hudson]

Hopefully everyone will just let others be excited and dream/speculate about it until the official word comes out. No need for negative nannys. Don't bring people down. Life is too short. Encourage the hype. It's fun...

[RED-Tank]

Oh yes it is fun it is hype... sorry guys if I spoiled anything.. :-].

Another request to RED,

can we have those spider-legs on mini-RED, I find it rather cool to have a spider standing on my shoulder and does all the shooting. so I can free both hands for typing message in reduser.com, hey! this will definitely make me look like a professional DP :d.

[Bruce Allen]

All of this discussion of the size of Jim's pockets reminds me vaguely of that stupid but rather hilarious "George Washington" animation...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Obin Olson]

I don't mean to be a smartass but that post was kind of asking for it.[/QUOTE]


and so was your original.

[Adam C Lubkin]

and so was your original.


It wasn't meant to be a criticism of anyone's requests or suggestions. If it came off that way then I apologize. To me, a smaller form factor also implies smaller lenses. These could be 35mm rangefinder lenses or something new built on their optical design. Alternately, 16mm is a great format, 2k is plenty of resolution for many applications, so it seems like a likely candidate to me. I don't pretend to know what RED is capable of or will decide to do.

[Eugene]

http://www.adorama.com/catlite.tpl?op=large_image&sku=JVGZMC100US.JPG
http://www.adorama.com/catlite.tpl?op=large_image&sku=JVGZHD7US.JPG
I want RED to make two more cameras, a compact and a pocket. I like the size of the two JVC cameras above. I wouldn't buy them because they can't do 1080p. If RED could make similar size cameras that could do 1080p (with auto focus, unlike the RED ONE) then I would be all over them.

[roxics]

How about a super 8 style camera with a c-mount and 16mm sized 2k sensor? Maybe a removable pistol grip.

Maybe something like this
http://particle.physics.ucdavis.edu/Graphics/Cameras/nikon_R10.jpg

That could be pocket sized, especially if you're using a small lens and no pistol grip at the time.

Maybe also an interchangeable viewfinder

[Aiden Cornwell]

I think 1080p or 2k even with a fixed lens is still a Pro camera. Remember Red is redefining what is Pro.

I do not think just having a fixed lens makes it a prosumer Camera.

Most prosumer cameras are 4.1.1, 4..0.0 or 4.2.2

So if Red comes out with a 1080p or 2k Camera with fixed lens that does 4.4.4. it is still a pro camera just redefining the industry again.

[Vincent Rice]

How about a super 8 style camera with a c-mount and 16mm sized 2k sensor? Maybe a removable pistol grip.

Maybe something like this
http://particle.physics.ucdavis.edu/Graphics/Cameras/nikon_R10.jpg

That could be pocket sized, especially if you're using a small lens and no pistol grip at the time.

Maybe also an interchangeable viewfinder

Hallelujah! This is what I'm banging on about.

PROFESSIONAL

POCKET

[Vincent Rice]

http://www.merzbarn.com/Catalogue/catalogue.htm

Something like the Braun Nizo Super 8's

[RayFrisby]

Here's my two cents on what I'd like.

A professional compact Full 2K camera,(4 would be great but I don't see this happening) this positions it below the Red and still above the HVX and other proconsumer models. This would make it the darling of the no-budget indi market, with budgets of anything from 10-100K. I think at the moment the Red is probably aimed more at the 150K and upward budget range.

Interchangeable lenses.

The same or at least similar lattitude and Range as the Red. 2 stops or more than the HVX and were laughing !

About the size of the HVX, maybe smaller, with the ability to add shoulder and rail support like the Red.

XLR imputs similar to the Red or HVX, why not up the quality to say 24/96 and market it as the truly independant or Indi soloution.

2 stage ND would be handy for run and gun as would some focus assist and Zebras like the HVX.

The same modular features as the Red and designed accordingly to fit the size and weight.

Include the same connections and ports as the red or modify where appropriate.

If you can provide this for under 10K then I'll sell my HVX and you can put me on the waiting list.

[Stephen Gentle]

Here's my two cents on what I'd like.

A professional compact Full 2K camera,(4 would be great but I dont see this happening) this positions it below the Red and still above the HVX and other proconsumer models.

Interchangeable lenses.

Same or at least similar lattitude and Range as the Red. 2 stops or more than the HVX and were laughing !

About the size of the HVX, maybe smaller, with the ability to add shoulder and rail support like the Red.

The same modular features of the Red and designed accordingly. Including connections and ports.

If you can provide this under 10K then I'll sell my HVX and you can put me on the waiting list.

That's pretty much the same as what I have in mind. A camera like that would be excellent for my purposes.

4K is unlikely, but then again, RED has a habit of surprising us...

[Robert Jackson]

http://www.merzbarn.com/Catalogue/catalogue.htm

Something like the Braun Nizo Super 8's

I liked a lot of the small Super-8 and 16mm cameras of the 70's. I had a Beaulieu 6008:

http://www.mondofoto.com/cameras/beaulieu_6008S-MD_0b.jpg

I still have a Canon Scoopic:

http://scoopicguy.com/Images-ScoopicM/ScoopicA.jpg

Both of these cameras are small and unobtrusive. You can walk around with them and shoot footage without anyone thinking about whether or not you have a permit.

More recently there have been very interesting 16mm designs from Aaton with their A-Minima:

http://www.aaton.com/images/aminima05.jpg

And the Arri 416:

http://www.arri.de/prod/cam/416/img/416_views.jpg

But the 416 is already starting to get kind of big. A nice compact camera that can be used inconspicuously would be great.

[Vincent Rice]

My dad had a Beaulieu 6008 which cost an absolute fortune at the time. We had an editing deck and everything. Its extraordinary the power we are able to purchase these days and RED are upping the ante by another order of magnitude but its quite sad to see these jewels of mechanical engineering disappear. Aaton are an eccentric bunch but have a very interesting design aesthetic. Their recorders are extraordinary.

[Robert Jackson]

My dad had a Beaulieu 6008 which cost an absolute fortune at the time. We had an editing deck and everything. Its extraordinary the power we are able to purchase these days and RED are upping the ante by another order of magnitude but its quite sad to see these jewels of mechanical engineering disappear. Aaton are an eccentric bunch but have a very interesting design aesthetic. Their recorders are extraordinary.

Yeah, I had an OM-mount to C-mount adapter so I could take off the Angenieux and use my Zuikos on it with a 4x crop factor. I used to mount my 180mm f2 on it for an effective 720mm f2. The telephoto compression was really cool. You could play Peckinpah all day. When I was a kid we used to shoot little space operas with models suspended by black thread from HO-scale railroad tracks.

You're right of course. The kind of power that Red is offering is almost beyond comprehension. And yeah, it's kind of sad to see the end of these little mechanical engineering marvels, but Super-8 was always a huge PITA. That integrated pressure plate in the cartridges meant that the performance of the camera was directly linked to how well the individual plastic cartridges were built and sometimes you got carts that were crap. My unbelievably expensive Beaulieu Super-8 rig frequently didn't perform nearly as well as my dad's cheap Bell and Howell wind-up dual-8 Zapruder-cam:

http://www.copweb.be/images/zapcam.jpg

I would love to have a very small 4K camera that could take serious optics, though. Something the size of a Super-8 camera with a couple of compact lens choices would be amazing. I can't imagine it coming from any company other than Red.

[Robert Jackson]

I would love to have a very small 4K camera that could take serious optics, though. Something the size of a Super-8 camera with a couple of compact lens choices would be amazing. I can't imagine it coming from any company other than Red.

BTW, there are a lot of old Arri standard mount lenses out there that would really rock on a small camera like this. The original Zeiss T* lenses in Arri standard mount were really compact. So were the Cookes of that era. A teensy RED that could take those lenses or if RED has their own compact lens mount in mind it would be amazing.

[TimothyD]

If they make a camera the size of a Super 8 with say, a folding grip. that would be just too bad-ass. If they can keep the weight down to Super-8 levels that would make it even cooler.

2k is just fine with me by the way.

Tim

[Michael Struthers]

a "pocket" or "compact" cam seems to mean fixed lens to me. Of course a very nice 2k fixed nikon or red lens would make a brilliant camera....

Doesn't anyone think a 35mm smaller version with detachable lenses would cut into the red one product? I can't see them doing it.

Be curious to see when Canon fires a shell into the middle of this. They are about due.

[der4]

I think that the "mini" should do the same thing to the Prosumer market that the RED is going to do to the BIG camera market. It only makes sense to have a 4K and a 2K camera. Compare this approach to 35mm and 16mm.

Make the camera about half the price of the RED. Give it enough functionality that it will allow the users to eventually upgrade to the 4K cameras with minimal learning curve. Allow the mini to use the same accessories, if desired, for future proofing upgrades. It would be great for the prosumer to purchase a smaller version and use it until they can afford the 4K version. This would not only be great for the "indie" but RED would own the market forcing everyone to drop prices and become competitive.

Why make a 1080 camera when it can be 2K. 2K still looks good on the big screen.

RED 4K-Professional Market
Mini 2K- Prosumer Market
Filmmakers-Very Happy

[kmikami]

Make the camera about half the price of the RED.

Why make a 1080 camera when it can be 2K. 2K still looks good on the big screen.

$8750 is hardly a prosumer price point! And 2k is what, 6% larger than 1080? Big deal. This doesn't seem like a likely scenario.

[Emanuel A.]

Yes, 4K & an auto-focus feature would rock indeed.

[Rob Lohman]

Professional Pocket Camera is not the same thing as pro-sumer!

[Robert Jackson]

Professional Pocket Camera is not the same thing as pro-sumer!

Hopefully it's a compact camera for people who work with video professionally. ;-)

[RayFrisby]

Professional Pocket Camera is not the same thing as pro-sumer!

First of all let me preface everything by saying I may be wrong or off the mark, but I think Rob's answer is telling us what we can expect.
I think its going to be a pocket camera; my hopes that it was going to be a pro-sumer replacment for the HVX have been dashed. If it is a pocket camera I don't see it having interchangeable lenses, then again Red has suprised us all in the past !
I do see it offering say at least Full 1080 or 2k but if as a pocket camera I think it will be probably best suited to the run and gun-documentary maker rather than the micro budget, indi market.
Personally I like the small form cameras for ease and convienience; but I what I would really love is a Full 2K camera with interchangable lenses and a lattitude range similar to the Red (or at least two or more stops than the HVX).
I think Red is on the money with this pocket camera idea; but I really feel the pro-sumer, indi market is crying out for a 2K HVX replacement with interchangeable lenses and the ability to shoulder mount or fly it like the Red.
I know the new 2/3' HPX500 is an alternative but with lenses and accessories you are looking at say 25K to buy. If Red positioned a 2K camera at 15K inc lens I really believe you would have a winner.
At about half the price of the RED one and you are aiming at a different market, the only reason I could see them not adopting it is that it might affect the sales of the Red One.
I love my HVX but the 1/3' sensor and limitations in low light combined with the lack of interchangable lenses is becoming an issue.
Anyway I'm sure the Pocket Red will be a winner !

[RayFrisby]

Professional Pocket Camera is not the same thing as pro-sumer!

.....

[Joe Aurili]

I'm hoping the camera will be a small as possible. I would be fine with 1080P or 2K. I would be fine with a fixed lens. When I think of a pocket cam I think of my Sanyo HD1 that shoots in 720p. I can bring that camera anywhere with no hassle, but the quality is not pro level, so it's of limited use. I owned a Sony Z1 and it sat at the house most the time because of it's size. If the min-red was the size of the HD1, but had the sensor quality and compression of the red, I would be as happy as pie. I would probably even choose it over red one, just due to the size. I love everything RED one has to offer except that is it too large to really be convenient for what I do, not that I won't get it anyways, because it just can't be beat right now.

[cckid]

Here's my two cents on what I'd like.

A professional compact Full 2K camera,(4 would be great but I don't see this happening) this positions it below the Red and still above the HVX and other proconsumer models. This would make it the darling of the no-budget indi market, with budgets of anything from 10-100K. I think at the moment the Red is probably aimed more at the 150K and upward budget range.

Interchangeable lenses.

The same or at least similar lattitude and Range as the Red. 2 stops or more than the HVX and were laughing !

About the size of the HVX, maybe smaller, with the ability to add shoulder and rail support like the Red.

XLR imputs similar to the Red or HVX, why not up the quality to say 24/96 and market it as the truly independant or Indi soloution.

2 stage ND would be handy for run and gun as would some focus assist and Zebras like the HVX.

The same modular features as the Red and designed accordingly to fit the size and weight.

Include the same connections and ports as the red or modify where appropriate.

If you can provide this for under 10K then I'll sell my HVX and you can put me on the waiting list.


If they could release something the size of an A-Minima, though. That would be the coolest. Like, look at a whole A-Minima rig in a road case

I think Red is on the money with this pocket camera idea; but I really feel the pro-sumer, indi market is crying out for a 2K HVX replacement with interchangeable lenses and the ability to shoulder mount or fly it like the Red.

I am realizing that most of us are on the same wave length....a red replacement for the panny hvx200, the red answer for the great aaton minima….a price tag somewhere between 5000 and 10000 usd, 2k sensor would be just fine, red drives maybe a bit smaller size than those for red one, variable speeds, pl mount and nikon mount. The result would be a versatile capable of run and gun, being able to be used as a second camera unit along with the red one, solid construction, i don't mind not having all these outputs as red one has....red PPC should definitely the red update to the lovely aaton a minima and also something similar but better than hvx200...completely agree on that...I even had a dream of holding one....

I do a lot of music videos, occasionally shoot commercials, I do also a lot of documentary work and a friend of mine has ordered a red one, if red PPC approaches my needs by 80 percent I am placing an order for it....since I am having doubts concerning hvx200 and p2 and rather wait to get my hands on the upcoming red PPC....don't care if it's not a pocket camera as long as it is professional, as long as it supports nikon mount, as long as it has full 35mm sensor (yep, true dof can’t be faked) and as long as it has variable speed. and doesn't cost more than 10000 usd for the basic setup....by the way congrats for the red team and their nab presentation I think they blew the whole place apart...been following the stuff for already beginning and have been a firm believer for what you're putting together...great job....if you want to see something funny check out the trailer for my last docu film HONEYMOON shot in Japan....hope will use the red PPC on my next documentary project,

www.honeymoonthemovie.net

www.staderzen.com

[Poi Boy]

4k pov camera for me.
Aloha
-A

[robinbuday]

Is there any chance that the RED mini isn't a cinema camera at all? How do we know that it isn't a digital still camera?

[kmikami]

How do we know that it isn't a digital still camera?

Common sense?

[Stephen Gentle]

Is there any chance that the RED mini isn't a cinema camera at all? How do we know that it isn't a digital still camera?

Well, the company is called 'Red Digital Cinema' for one thing...

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

4k ? no no, REDONE and mini-RED should live happily together, each target different users. 2k or 1080p for mini-RED will be the heaven gift, but please keep the 35mm sensor, so we still get the "full frame" image but in lower resolution...

EXACTLY. This is the camera I would kill for (since RED ONE is really a stretch financially for me). I have absolutely no forseeable need for 4K resolution. But I would be first in line to shell out 10K$ for an HD res off the mysterium sensor.

[Robert Jackson]

EXACTLY. This is the camera I would kill for (since RED ONE is really a stretch financially for me). I have absolutely no forseeable need for 4K resolution. But I would be first in line to shell out 10K$ for an HD res off the mysterium sensor.

You know, in all likelihood if they're calling it a "pocket" camera it will probably be 4K and look something like this:

http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/Images/SI-2Kmini_productpage.jpg

Which I actually have no interest in owning, but I'm sure there's a market.

[pat@hpnc.com]

You know it could be a hybrid still and video camera. I do a lot of still photography and some for the local papers. One thing you will notice if you start looking are big papers are starting to want video and still images from the same shoot so they have them for there websites. At the moment people are forced to carry a still and video camera or use an HD camera and grab stills. But you can see where neither way is the best. So there is a market for something using Canon or Nikon lenses that will capture very high qaulity video and stills. I know I am looking at the best way to do this right now.

[Stephen Gentle]

You know, in all likelihood if they're calling it a "pocket" camera it will probably be 4K and look something like this:

http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/Images/SI-2Kmini_productpage.jpg

Which I actually have no interest in owning, but I'm sure there's a market.

I doubt it. We all know that it's going to look cooler for one thing :P. And I think that it would have some kind of onboard recording (like Compact Flash or Expresscard).

[Jeff Deveraux]

Okay... I usually avoid these speculative threads, but this one sounds like fun.

First let's talk about definitions...

"Pocket":
I would assume this would be the pocket of loose fitting jeans. No more than 4.5"x3.5"x1.5". Even that would be a bit bulky. If you disagree, cut a 2x4 4 1/2" long and put it in your pocket.
This size could accommodate a 2/3" sensor easily. I think this would be too tight for a full film size chip and could not accommodate the kind of lenses that would be required. The real question here is how small can they stuff the block of circuitry needed tho process the footage.

"Professional":
I've heard many arguments about this one and they all have their validity. Back in 2000, I read a post on another forum from a man who was ranting and raving about how his Canon XL-1 was not a prosumer camera based on the fact that he made money with the camera. Technically he was right, however, the general consensus states that the XL-1 is and always has been a prosumer camera. Well, why? Because Canon called it a prosumer camera? Or is it because of the price range?
Looking back, the lowest of the professional cameras of the time was not visually much better (if any) than the XL-1. The XL-1 was broadcast quality, used interchangeable lenses, and could be fully manual (or not). The difference was the Canon had no XLR inputs, used only 1/3" chips, and had a low res EVF. Is this what separates prosumer from professional? Yes and no... The real difference is the quality of the components inside the camera and their ruggedness.
That said, I think "professional" can be defined not by what the camera industry says it is, but by what the operators want. RED recognizes this more than the other guys.

Here's what I think...
-2/3 inch chip (Still will blow any prosumer cam out of the water)
-REDCODE 2k or Apple pro rez
-Cam could ship with a low profile lens and will still have an interchangeable lens option
-Make use of solid state media possibly in conjunction with the RED module
-Hi res LCD could have a collapsable diopter and double as an EVF

Now here's some options that would be awesome...
-Submersible to 30-ft.
-Camera head detaches from unit connected with a separate cable for use as a POV/crash/snorkel/covert cam
-In the spirit of the RED rail system this head could have the RED clamp enabling it to clamp on just about anything from a baseball hat to a car bumper at 60 mph.

[Eugene]

Okay... I usually avoid these speculative threads

The speculative threads are the ones I live for. Those film vs. digital threads make me want to puke (althought they are the most popular threads.)

What should us speculators call this new cam for now? Mini, RED TWO, PPC, or something else? I wish Jim would trademark the name, and then let us what it is going to be called. It will make searching the threads for information that much easier. Problem is there is not much info yet. So speculate on speculators.

[dvpixl]

From the look of Ted Schilowitz face in the video, it was probably something exciting and practical. I doubt it'll be anything like Si-mini

[killfilm]

I think this mini-red would be awesome if it offered 2k res @4:4:4, VFR, nice D.O.F., possibly using same sensor as red one. This camera would be under
10 thousand even if it had a fixed lens. It would smoke everyone else out in that price range.

but then again, i dont know if it will be a video--still camera:blink:

[TimothyD]

As much as I love what these guys are doing, I sure as hell hope it isn't a still camera. At least not yet. Not until we have a small form factor "handycam" to compliment the beast that is Red One.

[David Mullen ASC]

The Red One is a "beast"??? It's much smaller than any camera I've ever used on a feature, smaller than a 35mm Panaflex or Arriflex or even a Sony F900 HDCAM. It's comparable to a Super-16 camera, if not even a little smaller. It's similar or smaller than most ENG camcorders.

The only thing that it's not smaller than are prosumer camcorders.

[Don King]

The typical Red customer is coming from the 1/3" world, that's why for a lot of people here the Red One is a beast. A lightweight camcorder for handheld use will always be useful, more helpful than a heavy or big cinema camera.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Even in the 1/3" world, a lot of cameras aren't all that small. The RED One body is about the same size as an HVX200. By the time I put a 35mm adapter, lens and other accessories on an HVX, it starts to get pretty big. Same with the DVX100 which isn't much smaller. The cage adds more bulk to RED, but it's functional with the additional handles and mount points and protection. Besides it's modular and you don't have to assemble all sorts of extra gear onto the camera if you don't need it.

[David Mullen ASC]

The typical Red customer is coming from the 1/3" world, that's why for a lot of people here the Red One is a beast. A lightweight camcorder for handheld use will always be useful, more helpful than a heavy or big cinema camera.

The RED camera is lightweight and handholdable, and it's not a big, heavy cinema camera by any stretch of the imagination. And many people (like news shooters) find a camera that sits on your shoulder to be a lot more comfortable for handholding all day than something you have to support on the end of your wrist. Especially if you start putting 35mm zooms on the camera -- it would be totally front-heavy if put on a palmcorder-sized camera.

Not to mention since when is the 1/3" DV user who typically spends less than $10,000 the primary customer for a 4K digital cinema camera that costs over $30,000 when fully-loaded? This camera is more in the price range of the mid-range ENG equipment, like a Panasonic SDX900, and is in the same size and weight range as some of those. And those size cameras are used all the time for corporate shooting, industrials, infomercials, EPK's, etc.

Also, not all movies adopt a handheld style of shooting, and palmcoder-sized cameras are often too lightweight to get smooth operating and dolly moves with simultaneous focus-pulling unless stuck on a heavy tripod head. Even simply manually focusing the lens can shake a tiny camera while operating, unless you are only planning on small-screen standard definition video presentation where such bumps would be less noticeable.

To say that any digital cinema camera that isn't as tiny as a prosumer palmcorder is therefore a "beast" is ridiculous when you consider that it is already much smaller than any other camera of comparable picture quality. The Red camera is a mid-sized camera by almost anyone's definition -- an IMAX camera is a beast, a 35mm Panaflex with a zoom and a 1000' mag is a beast. But a Red camera is definitely a comfortable size for handholding even for someone like me who is not athletic, and I've operated some entire features for multiple weeks on end using a 35mm Panaflex handheld, or an F900, even an old Arri BL4. So I would look on a Red camera as a relief to handhold!

[Bachman]

The RED camera is lightweight and handholdable, and it's not a big, heavy cinema camera by any stretch of the imagination. And many people (like news shooters) find a camera that sits on your shoulder to be a lot more comfortable for handholding all day than something you have to support on the end of your wrist. Especially if you start putting 35mm zooms on the camera -- it would be totally front-heavy if put on a palmcorder-sized camera.

Not to mention since when is the 1/3" DV user who typically spends less than $10,000 the primary customer for a 4K digital cinema camera that costs over $30,000 when fully-loaded? This camera is more in the price range of the mid-range ENG equipment, like a Panasonic SDX900, and is in the same size and weight range as some of those. And those size cameras are used all the time for corporate shooting, industrials, infomercials, EPK's, etc.

Also, not all movies adopt a handheld style of shooting, and palmcoder-sized cameras are often too lightweight to get smooth operating and dolly moves with simultaneous focus-pulling unless stuck on a heavy tripod head. Even simply manually focusing the lens can shake a tiny camera while operating, unless you are only planning on small-screen standard definition video presentation where such bumps would be less noticeable.

To say that any digital cinema camera that isn't as tiny as a prosumer palmcorder is therefore a "beast" is ridiculous when you consider that it is already much smaller than any other camera of comparable picture quality.

Im with David. I can only speak for our company, but we normally only use shoulder mount Digibeta or sometimes DVCam camera's. For field operation weight has a definite advantage because of stability and balance/weight Bias especially with a big lens attached, not to mention the importance of that piece of glass on the front, which is an extremely limiting factor with cheaper cameras. Also 1/3" DV cameras are not technically "broadcast" quality because they are not 4:4:4,(some Networks wont except 4:1:1) and to be honest if we roll up to a shoot with a piddly little camera our clients wouldnt be too happy even though they might not notice the difference in post.

In this industry size does matter

T

[Gordon Prince]

The RED camera is lightweight and handholdable, and it's not a big, heavy cinema camera by any stretch of the imagination. And many people (like news shooters) find a camera that sits on your shoulder to be a lot more comfortable for handholding all day than something you have to support on the end of your wrist. Especially if you start putting 35mm zooms on the camera -- it would be totally front-heavy if put on a palmcorder-sized camera.

Not to mention since when is the 1/3" DV user who typically spends less than $10,000 the primary customer for a 4K digital cinema camera that costs over $30,000 when fully-loaded? This camera is more in the price range of the mid-range ENG equipment, like a Panasonic SDX900, and is in the same size and weight range as some of those. And those size cameras are used all the time for corporate shooting, industrials, infomercials, EPK's, etc.

Maybe. But a great majority of the Red buyers appreciate the small form factor. I agree with Don.

[Mr. Paul White]

Not to mention since when is the 1/3" DV user who typically spends less than $10,000 the primary customer for a 4K digital cinema camera that costs over $30,000 when fully-loaded?

Since all my workmates are buying as well as keeping their enthusiasm alive. Now myself included. From HVX200 to Red One.

[Craig Schober]

As much as I love what these guys are doing, I sure as hell hope it isn't a still camera. At least not yet. Not until we have a small form factor "handycam" to compliment the beast that is Red One.

look at the redone. it's always been described as a digital still camera with variable frame rates. now red announces a professional pocket camera. i think it's safe to say that it will act and maybe even look more like a digital slr that happens to shoot hd video (hopefully up to 120fps).

[TimothyD]

Wow, talk about misunderstanding...

When I referred to the camera as a beast I was thinking in terms of features, accessories, etc. That was a COMPLIMENT. Beast, as in powerful, not beast as in lumbering giant. Damn...

As far as handhelds go, I totally agree with all of the complaints about them, and personally would always go shoulder mount over handheld. But to each his own. I know that when I do get a pocked Red it will live in a backpack that is with me at all times, but in that backpack there will also be a shoulder mount I can use it with.

Tim

[ColinSmith]

having seen this.
http://prolost.blogspot.com/2007_04_01_archive.html
It does make me wonder a bit....

If you can mount slr lenses (lose the built in lens) and record to a fw drive (lose the tape mech) you are down to a pretty small sized box....

Ok, so you would want to have a much larger sensor size packed in there, but still.....

[Bachman]

look at the redone. it's always been described as a digital still camera with variable frame rates. now red announces a professional pocket camera. i think it's safe to say that it will act and maybe even look more like a digital slr that happens to shoot hd video (hopefully up to 120fps).

Yip. I think some traditional videographers will struggle a wee bit because of that. Best they pick up a Digital SLR and start practising. Personally im all for it

[Craig Schober]

having seen this.
http://prolost.blogspot.com/2007_04_01_archive.html
It does make me wonder a bit....

If you can mount slr lenses (lose the built in lens) and record to a fw drive (lose the tape mech) you are down to a pretty small sized box....

Ok, so you would want to have a much larger sensor size packed in there, but still.....

forget the firewire drive. flash media would be smaller, less power hungry and a lot cheaper (by the time red pocket camera is revealed). and as for a lens, i think the lens system will be a function of the sensor size that red goes with. if they went with the current mysterium sensor, it would be silly to not allow removable lenses. but removable lenses and pocket camera do not go together so well so i suspect a smaller mysterium sensor is in the works.

[David Mullen ASC]

Wow, talk about misunderstanding...

When I referred to the camera as a beast I was thinking in terms of features, accessories, etc. That was a COMPLIMENT. Beast, as in powerful, not beast as in lumbering giant.
Tim

Ah, that makes sense, although the metaphor is a bit odd.

[TimothyD]

Ah, that makes sense, although the metaphor is a bit odd.

Yeah, I guess that is a constant downfall of typing things and knowing what you mean, but other people misinterpreting what you meant because they don't hear the inflection, or see the body language, etc.

I think that in the EFP style I will be using the camera in, it will most likely be a smaller and lighter weight setup than the Sony DXC-637 BetaSP camera I currently use.

I like the idea of a small "pocket" camera a lot as a second camera that I can carry at all times, but I do hope that it is not a fixed lens camera. Unless that is the only way it can be done I guess.

Cheers,

Tim

[Emanuel A.]

The typical Red customer is coming from the 1/3" world, that's why for a lot of people here the Red One is a beast. A lightweight camcorder for handheld use will always be useful, more helpful than a heavy or big cinema camera.


Maybe. But a great majority of the Red buyers appreciate the small form factor. I agree with Don.


Since all my workmates are buying as well as keeping their enthusiasm alive. Now myself included. From HVX200 to Red One.


look at the redone. it's always been described as a digital still camera with variable frame rates. now red announces a professional pocket camera. i think it's safe to say that it will act and maybe even look more like a digital slr that happens to shoot hd video (hopefully up to 120fps).

Anyway, I'm afraid there are and there will be a lot of people hoping and wishing the small factor around the corner.

[Eugene]

I know that when I do get a pocked Red it will live in a backpack that is with me at all times, but in that backpack there will also be a shoulder mount I can use it with.

A pocket cam belongs in ones pocket, not a backpack. Pocket, pocket, pocket! When Jim says pocket he means pocket. Why are people doubting that the next RED will fit in a pocket? What is this talk of backpacks and shoulder mounts? Heresy. In Jim I trust.

http://www.joby.com/images/zaction08.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/107/300187375_2b8edb5419.jpg?v=0

No shoulder mount. Just a Gorillapod.
http://www.joby.com/

Links to pics of joby's.
Imagine them with a RED inplace of the the digital cameras.
No backpacks, shouldermounts, or travel tripods, just a RED in one pants pocket, and a Gorillapod in the other, for on the fly filming.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eureca/471238987/in/pool-gorillapod/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/93273458@N00/427378043/in/pool-gorillapod/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/93273458@N00/411830702/in/pool-gorillapod/

[Chris Forbes]

Jim is a marketing genius!!! Bravo the the king of buzz, I think he has hysterium sensor in his cyborg logic possessor.

[Rob Lohman]

Cool photo of the gorillapod, still need to use mine....

[Jared VanLeuven]

How about a 2k "Minimium" sensor? *ducks*

[Don Woods]

lol.. Why not sounds like an idea

[Poi Boy]

gotta keep it 4K.
-A

[Phillip Hudson]

Why make it 35mm size (for lense attachments and shorter DoF) but then gimp its resolution? Keep both or lose both. Since losing both doesnt make sense for a professional camera that bears the name RED, might as well keep em both dont ya think? Production costs for a 35mm sized sensor in 2k and 4k is probably pretty close to being the same (just guessing here).

Dream BIG guys... come on!

[Robert Jackson]

Why make it 35mm size (for lense attachments and shorter DoF) but then gimp its resolution? Keep both or lose both. Since losing both doesnt make sense for a professional camera that bears the name RED, might as well keep em both dont ya think? Production costs for a 35mm sized sensor in 2k and 4k is probably pretty close to being the same (just guessing here).

Dream BIG guys... come on!

They called it a "pocket" RED, not a "crappy" RED. I imagine it will have a sensor like or similar to the one in the RED One and a teensy body that will work well for MoCo and hothead stuff. That would be my guess, anyway.

[Craig Schober]

Production costs for a 35mm sized sensor in 2k and 4k is probably pretty close to being the same (just guessing here).

pretty close? that's like assuming 1/4" ccd and 2/3" ccd are similar in cost. there's a reason why handycams only cost $250 and larger pro cams start at $20000.

there's also a reason why handycams are as small as they are (some would even go so far as to call them pocket cams) and pro cams are shoulder mount (i've never heard any shoulder mount cam with a removable lens claiming to fit in a pocket or be pocket-sized).

i'm not doubting red. i'm just doubting the redusers' abilities to see past their fantasy cams.

[kmikami]

there's a reason why handycams only cost $250 and larger pro cams start at $20000.

Sure, plastic parts, plastic lenses, less R&D costs, technology that has already been subsidized by the bigger, more expensive cameras, economies of scale, etc. I'm sure the actual sensor cost is a pretty small portion of the cost savings.


there's also a reason why handycams are as small as they are (some would even go so far as to call them pocket cams) and pro cams are shoulder mount

Again, I think this has more to do with the different needs of the pro and consumer markets in terms of form factor rather than sensor size restrictions.

I believe that Red can successfully build a miniaturized 4k camera for specialized purposes if cost is not a factor. But I don't necessarily believe that they can build a prosumer camera at a price point that is competitive with the major manufacturers without sacrificing qualities that are important to the Red brand.

[David Mullen ASC]

If you try and make a 4K sensor physically smaller than the 35mm MP frame, you lose the 35mm depth-of-field characteristics, plus more than likely you'll have sensitivity loss and heat problems from cramming more sensor sites into a smaller surface area. But if you leave the sensor to be 35mm in size, it gets harder to keep everything smaller around it, especially the optics in front.

Hence why I think a smaller RED is likely either going to be a 4K "block" with a 35mm-sized sensor and lens and maybe a separate processor... or it's going to be a 2K/HD sensor with smaller optics and a built-in processor. But I don't expect a 4K sensor that is only 1/3" or 1/2" in size for a handycam-type camera (and if they did, how many people would use it if it were only 100 ASA and/or noisy, let's say?).

[P Andersson]

3K smaller sensor for good detail on 2K deliverable and being able to adjust shake, crop or other vfx
zoom with 1.0 f-stop for DOF (as large f-stop as possible)
built in ND filters for daylight and narrow DOF
Super 8 form factor with foldable or removeable battery-handle for tripod mount
OK to put part of the stuff on a belt or in a back pack while shooting
Extremely weather and shake proof
all controls fully manual and fully automatic by choice
compressed in camera and uncompressed with external extras
2000 dollars ready to go

[Joe Aurili]

Sounds good to me, but the $2000 sounds a little TOO good ;)


3K smaller sensor for good detail on 2K deliverable and being able to adjust shake, crop or other vfx
zoom with 1.0 f-stop for DOF (as large f-stop as possible)
built in ND filters for daylight and narrow DOF
Super 8 form factor with foldable or removeable battery-handle for tripod mount
OK to put part of the stuff on a belt or in a back pack while shooting
Extremely weather and shake proof
all controls fully manual and fully automatic by choice
compressed in camera and uncompressed with external extras
2000 dollars ready to go

[gcaussade]

Hmmm, all this talk of other form factors for Red makes me wonder what will happen next.

I assume Red brings value to many areas, not just the sensor. But, I'm sure at one point someone will consider if some parts of the technology could be used with a large partner to create a prosumer camera, too.

Jim has deep pockets, but he has the lead now, he'll be looking at all his options. Of course, he also knows the retail business, channels, etc, so it will be interesting to see how (and where) the RED technology will appear in the next few years.

Sorry, maybe I'm hijacking the thread, but I guess I see many possibilities for RED, beyond their own cameras...

-Jerry

[ColinSmith]

To me it seems logical that the mini will be to a super 16 camera as the Red one is to a 35mm camera. That puts it as 2k as far as I can see, otherwise they are killing their own market.

Now I would really like that 2k sensor to be the same size as in the Red one, so I could use 35mm stills lenses on it without a crazy crop factor, but I would guess a super16 sized sensor is more likely..... just for the physical size as much as anything.

Now then.... most of the ideas that lead me here have come from these threads... and of course very few from Red..... so.... will they surprise me again? Could be ;-)

[Jared VanLeuven]

I guess the challenge confronting the RED team is how to diversify the product line without being redundant (think Apple in the early 90's) or cannibalizing sales of either cam too badly. Maybe that's not even on Jim's mind, as he's been such a rebel in this arena - sell a modular, upgradable camera designed to last decades? Why not truly give the customer choices not solely based on market segmentation? He's rewriting the rules everywhere else, so as I anticipate RED MINI/POCKET/TWO I fully expect the unexpected. And that's a good thing. :)

[P Andersson]

Sounds good to me, but the $2000 sounds a little TOO good ;)

allright, how about 1000

[kmikami]

But if you leave the sensor to be 35mm in size, it gets harder to keep everything smaller around it, especially the optics in front.

I'll admit that I'm completely ignorant of the technical issues involved here but I just don't understand why a camera with a 35mm sensor can't be tiny. The sensor itself is certainly pocket sized isn't it? There have been plenty of 35mm still film cameras in the past that were pocket sized so I don't see how there are optical limitations if you disregard the possibility of using existing cinema lenses. I can see there being heat/power/electronic challenges but that seems like the easiest area to miniaturize.

[David Mullen ASC]

Well, what is "tiny" is somewhat subjective -- the RED camera is already tiny compared to the last 4K cine camera, the Dalsa Origin. I'm sure futher miniaturization is always possible but you have to remember that the current Red camera already represents a significant leap towards making a smaller 4K camera. Eventually we probably will have a 4K cine camera that is basically the size of a DSLR still camera that can shoot at 24 fps and higher.

But optically, a lens has to be large enough to project an image that covers the 35mm-sized sensor, and it's hard to make a lens that is tiny, fast, and sharp, with a good focus range and with barrel large enough so that distance marks are not too closely spaced, unless you can give up on manual focus-pulling. Yes, you could go the route of a point-and-shoot 35mm still camera and have a tiny 3:1 zoom with electronic focusing.

A digital cine camera is basically a small computer attached to the sensor, having to process very large amounts of data being captured 24 times per second, if not faster. So the demands on the camera are much higher than what a still camera has to handle, though like I said, we're coming to the day whne your typical 10 MP still camera will be able to shoot 24 times a second, in short bursts...

But my point is that a cine camera is a lot more than a sensor. You've got optics in front of it and a processor behind it.

Not to mention viewfinder monitoring issues -- do you really want to shoot 4K with 35mm-style depth of field and look at a tiny postage-stamp viewfinder image? Because even if you could build a tiny 4K camera, you're going to want to view the image on a big viewfinder in order to judge focus. In fact, the LCD viewfinder may end up being the largest element of this tiny camera.

So there are physical issues that affect practical size that have little to do with electronic miniaturization.

It seems to me that IF you are making a lot of image & design compromises just to keep the 4K 35mm sensor in a tiny camera, you wonder what's the point? If the lens isn't good and the focus is often off, the fact that the image is 4K becomes moot because it won't be 4K in sharpness.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

If the RED pocket camera is truly a pocket camera... Whatever that means, are we talking shirt pocket? Baggy cargo pants pocket? But if it's truly a pocket camera, I don't see it having interchangeable lenses. I'm going to bet on an integrated zoom. With that in mind, and the emphasis on "pocket camera", I'd be surprised if it's a 4K sensor. I would love to see a 2/3", s16mm sized 2K sensor in a pocket or palmcorder form factor.

But we're all just speculating... I guess we'll have to see what RED is going to come up with, but I can see a market for a 2K, 2/3" palmcorder or true pocket camera. I can also see a market for a 35mm unit with interchangeable glass that isn't much different or larger than a DSLR and can still shoot 4K. Perhaps limited to 30fps max and lacking a lot of the features of it's bigger RED One brother.

[P Andersson]

lens, sensor and screen light enough for a steadicam merlin
put the rest anywhere on the body of the cameraman
fit all needed gear into a small backpack
have the batteries last for a trip up the mountains in nepal

[TimothyD]

I would love to see a 2/3", s16mm sized 2K sensor in a pocket or palmcorder form factor.

This is sort of OT, but you know, I had thought that a 2/3" lens would allow you to shoot 2k until today. Then I was looking at the format options page:
http://www.red.com/formatoptions.shtml and noticed that the only lenses you can shoot 2k with are PL mount 35 and 16 lenses.

I don't know why, but I had thought it had said 2/3" and S16 both shot 2k.

This means that I will probably either get an S16 lens, or I will get a still lens. That is, unless I could still shoot 2k, but have some vignetting around the frame and maybe some black space. That might still allow me to do some image stabilization, pan and scan, and zooming though.

Does anyone know off-hand how much a 2/3" lens would vignette on the 2k frame?

Thanks,

Tim

(Brook, if this is too far off topic I could make it a new thread or something.)

[TimothyD]

BTW, most people already know this I bet, but without vignetting, a 2/3" lens will only be able to shoot RGB, no RAW:(

Another big reason to go with an S16 I guess...