ENG/EFP Package

[TimothyD]

Hello everyone,

I'd like to make a request of the Red Team, and will just cross my fingers it can come to fruition.

I'd really like to see Red release an ENG turn-key package. Preferably with some slight discount for buying the whole shot.

In requesting this I'd like to point out that I am assuming that the Supergrip will give me the same kind of control I'm used to with a standard ENG style lens zoom control, though I'd welcome some other options in addition like a fine adjustment wheel in addition to a more coarse rocker control.

This package would include:

Red One - $17,500
Basic Production Pack - $1,250
Power Pack - $1,450
EVF - $2,950
Arm - $175
18-85 mm Zoom - $8,995?
Supergrip - $???
Red Motor - $???

Ideally if this package could come in at around 35 grand I'd be glad to put up my deposit immediately. I realize this may be a lot to ask depending on the as yet unannounced price of the supergrip and motor. If you guys can announce this, and take my deposit, I'm ready. Shoot me an e-mail if so and I'll put the wheels in motion.

[PMascetta]

Why dont we worry about getting a finished product first without other demands. Everyone seems to forget its a 4K under 20g camera WOW!!! WHo needs anything else.:)

[Mike the beginner]

Why dont we worry about getting a finished product first without other demands. Everyone seems to forget its a 4K under 20g camera WOW!!! WHo needs anything else.:)


Primes. zooms and accessories have all received reds attention and rightly so. Red team knows what is important at each stage of their development. That is why these items have been given due consideration. That is why they are working closely with "selected third parties like Birger Engineering" as an example to ensure the still lenses option (the cheap option if you like) is going to work reasonably well and allow red to grab more of the market share for their camera. Gibby and others have done an exhaustive input in the needs of all users etc we thank them for their efforts.

This request was perfectly reasonable There is nothing wrong in asking for such a package deal to be considered, it does not hold back the development of the red one, indeed the availability of the lenses and accessories has highlighted the fact that red are not just camera makers or one hit wonders.

Nab has enabled red to show off its products and give mention to future products. Thus Red has just raised the game and taken a giant leap forward with its aim to be the best camera company in the world. Some big camera companies are already seeing red as a force to be reckoned with and not just because of its camera.

I am sure red team knows they have a brilliant camera as it stands for cine use. More work was needed to gain support for other areas. Red team are on to it with the support of third parties as above. All of this will enhance the red one for all syles and needs. There are no fools in the red team, they know what has to be done.


Mike the beginner

[TimothyD]

In asking for this I am merely hoping that they will take the existing parts and put together a package with a small discount that makes one of what I imagine will be one of the most common configurations of the Red One a tiny bit cheaper than it would be if you were to buy all the parts separately.

I am definitely not asking the Red team to abandon their development of cine related products. I do hope however that in designing accessories such as the super grip that the ENG/EFP market is kept in mind, as we will end up being the majority of the Red user base, if not now, in the coming year or so.

I suppose another reason for this thread is to get those who are interested in using the Red One for ENG/EFP to vote in support of a package deal. The more people that vote for this, the more likely it is that we might see it happen. I'd never ask any of the competitors to offer a package deal, because they have shown that the needs of users primarily fall on deaf ears. Since Red is the exact opposite, I thought it would be worth it to ask.

Another key reason is that if they were to offer an ENG/EFP package, then it shows that they feel the camera will kick ass in that capacity. I feel like it will, but I don't know jack about the cine end of things, and would love to be saved a lot of time and hassle in choosing a workable setup.

Bottom line is I am just happy they have decided to do the supergrip and motor. This to me fills a huge gap, because I'd rather have a turn key solution than have to piece something together Frankenstein style. If they sell a package I know it will not only work, but it will kick ass.

[Litzwire]

I'm all for enhancing the RED for ENG/EFP use. I produce/shoot a show for a major cable network, and though we do a lot of very cinematically-styled shooting for B-roll and interviews, we have our cameras on our shoulders much of the time. I would like to see RED, or any digital cinema camera maker, seriously consider all the same rigors that makers of ENG-style video cameras have (we use Varicam, HDX900, and SDX900 for our show). I used to use a CP-16 on a show when I was a kid (and used it on some music videos too), and seemingly one could use the exact same lens/control setup as was the norm for the CP-16, or at least something very similar, but I think it would behoove RED, SI, and others to consider a package that would make and ENG'er feel more at home when operating the camera - certainly the user base would increase by 30 to 50 times if that were the case. Many argue, "Well why don't you just get an ENG camera if that's what you need." Well, in our case we have, but we have some elements about our show that warrant taking the image to the next level; PLUS many producers like myself that do nature, sports, and travelogue shows also produce commercials and other types of productions where you have more control. It would be nice to see a camera like RED cover all these bases like a Varicam does, but with better quality, of course. You can put a Varicam on your shoulder, and you can make a narrative TV movie of acceptable quality with it, but if you project it, you run into problems. If RED were to accomodate the need for an ENG setup, it would cover all of those things. One thing that hasn't been discussed that much, that relates to ENG/EFP work, is RED's and other Digital Cinema cameras' tolerance of exterior elements and temperatures. I'm not saying RED should be ready to take to Everest now or in the next year, but Digital Cinema camera makers should be looking into how far these cameras can go with the elements, so that in the not too distant future one might be able to see a RED take a trip to the highest, lowest, driest, and wettest points of the Earth. From what I understand of Jim Jannard, I would imagine these things are being considered.

[Ken Corben]

... but Digital Cinema camera makers should be looking into how far these cameras can go with the elements, so that in the not too distant future one might be able to see a RED take a trip to the highest, lowest, driest, and wettest points of the Earth. From what I understand of Jim Jannard, I would imagine these things are being considered.

Well said - I think this type of solution is on their "to do list" but their are only 24 hours in a day. I hope to contribute to the far flung corners of the planet with RED.

[JohnF]

I totally agree too!

One of the big things I noticed about electronic cameras was the tendency for ambient temperature to effect the feel/tone/quality of the picture due to the thermal noise characteristics of the CCD (esp. if the camera changes temp during shooting), not to mention battery life!!!

JohnF

[Stuart English]

It would be nice to see a camera like RED cover all these bases like a Varicam does, but with better quality, of course. You can put a Varicam on your shoulder, and you can make a narrative TV movie of acceptable quality with it, but if you project it, you run into problems. If RED were to accomodate the need for an ENG setup, it would cover all of those things.

I'm with you on that one. Except we prefer to refer to that as EFP rather than ENG, so as to avoid discussions about RED for "news"

[TimothyD]

"I'm with you on that one. Except we prefer to refer to that as EFP rather than ENG, so as to avoid discussions about RED for "news"

Hi Stuart,

While I do shoot quite a bit of ENG style stuff, the range of what I do is much broader than that and is probably 90% EFP. I see Red as my perfect camera because while I may shoot boring interviews a lot, I also shoot archival footage of the campus of the college I work at, and often high profile people who come through to speak.

The first thing that drew me to the Red was the idea that the stuff I shoot will still be useful many years down the road. Something that the historical library will be quite happy about.

The thing is, I am no cinema expert. I am a jack of all trades and take all of my projects through from start to finish alone. So I really need some solid advice on a setup that will work for me as a turn-key system. I need to be able to zoom a great distance to capture candid shots, and five minutes later shoot an interview.

So I guess what I really need to know is will I be able to run and gun as well with a Red and say a Canon KJ20x5.8-KRS as I can now with my 15+ year old Sony BetaSP camera with a 17x lens? I am guessing the size and weight are going to be about the same, but I need to know if I will be able to make it work otherwise. (and of course would love a chance to save a few bucks for more accessories)

I realize that as you guys are all about cinema, I am probably a low priority right now, but I really want to choose Red over the competition and have the money to make it happen. I just need to know that this can be my all around camera, as I won't have money for a b-roll camera.

[Steve Gibby]

I realize that as you guys are all about cinema, I am probably a low priority right now, but I really want to choose Red over the competition and have the money to make it happen. I just need to know that this can be my all around camera, as I won't have money for a b-roll camera.

I assure you that RED One was never intended to be "all about cinema". On the contrary, the EFP capability of RED One was planned right from the very beginning. If you read my published interview with Jim Jannard over a year ago we talked about the planned EFP capability of RED One. I have a cine-style and EFP style background, but when I attended the very first spec meeting for RED One in December 2005, I made it a point of making specific EFP capability suggestions. Stuart English has an extensive background in the development of EFP cameras for Panasonic. RED One can be your all around camera. It's going to be my all around camera, which I re-lens and re-accessorize for each project, whether it be cine-style or EFP style. Read my "EFP and ENG with RED" FAQ at the head of the home page for this forum. It should give you some additional ideas for EFP use of your RED One camera.

RED One is a digital cinema camera that can be very effectively used for a wide variety of EFP production genres. IMO users imaginations, skill sets, and attitudes will be the main limiting factors on RED One use.

[TimothyD]

Thanks Gibby,

You actually have already been kind enough to give me some good advice a few weeks back on ENG/EFP with Red. I really appreciate it, as the perspective of someone who shoots across all styles means a lot to me.

I guess I am in a tough spot because I have an approved budget which needs to be spent by the end of June. And while I feel pretty confident that this is the right camera for me, I can't help but be a bit paranoid that it somehow won't work out right. There are so many unknown factors for me, and if it was a personal purchase, I know I'd wait for a bit to see what comes out in terms of 2/3" lenses meant for single sensor cameras, other accesories, etc. But I am in the position that I have to pull the trigger on the deal or pick a different camera. That's a bit scary, I really don't like any of the other cameras in this price range at all:)

Thanks again for your help, and I will go read your FAQ and scour the posts some more. The sad thing is, it seems like I've done nothing BUT scour this forum for months now, and while I've learned a lot, it is mostly about the cinema end of things, and what I do is strictly ENG/EFP. The 4k would be nice for campus scenics, but I kind of doubt I'll manage to learn to re-collimate a lens mount anytime soon:)

Thanks again,

Tim

[Steve Gibby]

Tim,

Purchase decisions are always stressful. Everyone wants to make sure they're making the right step for them. From what you describe as your work, mainly EFP, I think RED could work well for you. 4k and 35mm DOF, etc is fine when you need it, but it sounds like you'd mostly be using 2k, 1080p, and 720p for your work. The nice thing with RED One is that when you do find an upward need for 4k, it's there. For the work you describe with RED One a typical "economy" kit for that may be:

- a B4 2/3" HD ENG lens. On a budget, you can find a used B4 2/3" HD ENG 18x lens, without doubler, for about $5.5k.
- The RED EVF
- The RED B4 adaptor or the Abakas B4 adaptor
- RED Drive
- A shoulder brace
- RED batteries and charger
(No matte box or follow focus is needed)

The above kit will get you in the game for mobile EFP work with RED One. I'm assuming you already have a tripod, light kit, and audio gear. If not, you can buy those used from a rental house at very good prices. The B4 adaptor will allow you to cover 2k with a 2/3" lens, so you'd have the option of shooting 2k REDCODE RAW, or alternately 1080p RGB or 720p RGB. With the NAB news of Apple's new ProRes 422 (if you edit in FCP), the editing of RED footage has a viable post workflow for EFP projects. With HD-DVD and BluRay burners starting to ship, you have a delivery medium for 1080p, 1080i, or 720p finished projects.

The above kit will cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $32k. If you have a budget for that, then you may want to consider RED One. It's obviously less expensive if you already have an HD ENG zoom lens. You can also use a S16 zoom lens for your EFP work, but it sounds like you are not familiar with S16 lenses. S16 zooms can be fairly inexpensive, and you would then simply shoot everything in 2k REDCODE RAW.

Beside the cine-style work I do, I also shoot a ton of mobile, non-hardlined EFP projects. What I outlined above is how I will be solving the equipment issues for those projects of mine. You need to weigh everything out, check your budget, and then make a decision if RED One is the camera for your needs.

In a very short time me and a team of guys will be doing field testing of my RED #8 in Los Angeles. Beyond the cine lens tests and 35mm still tests, some other tests will be using a RED or Abakus B4 adaptor and an HD ENG zoom lens on the camera. Those results may help you with your decision.

Hope this input helps you...

[TimothyD]

Your input is always immensely helpful Gibby.

I do have everything else I need, though my tripod is a 20-30 year old ITE that is meant for a much larger camera. It weighs roughly as much as my BetaSP camera, and the pan adjustment is broken, luckily it is stuck in a real sweet spot.

I had not planned properly for the need for the Red or Abakus adapter, becuase being naive about cine stuff, I had assumed that I could use the Red 18-85 zoom with bolted on zoom motor and controls. I also didn't realize I'd need the production package in order to have a shoulder pad when I wrote up the request for funds.

Now that I have learned more about the basic package needed for EFP, I have about 6k less than I would have had to work with for the other bits and pieces needed to be up and running. I can still swing it, but I have to ditch a lot of other goodies that I really wanted. (Some new audio gear, etc)

I'll be anxiously awaiting the results of your tests with 2/3" lenses. The only major drawback I can see is the extra 2 inches or so added to the camera length because of the B4 adapter. The other issue is the lost 1.5 stops of latitude I guess. Though I am assuming with 11+ stops that is not such a problem.

"The above kit will cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $32k." Hehe, I have exactly 33k:)

BTW, I can't buy a used lens because this money is coming directly from a university account which cannot be used to buy used equipment. So I need to nail down the best lens for my money. I'm hoping you might be able to help guide me a bit on this. I was thinking that I'd rather have a doubler with a lower powered lens (say 13x) over a 17x or higher lens. This would work well for me I think because I never need the higher power unless I am shooting something candid and trying to keep students from realizing the camera is on them. So I don't need to be able to zoom or pull all the way from 1x to 17x, being able to flip the switch and go from 13 to 26 would be perfect I think.

Thanks so much for your time and expertise Gibby,

Tim

[Steve Gibby]

Tim,

I would re-check with your university management to possibility of buying re-conditioned used equipment from an equipment rental company. Many of them even give warranties on their used equipment sales. I would also check on the possibility of one of the TV stations or rental companies in your area doing a donation of some used equipment to your school. It happens all the time. They get good community PR, and sometimes tax breaks, from donating the equipment, and you get what you need for your production department – plus you’re a hero to your school management for being resourceful and saving them money. I would immediately start calling/emailing all the TV stations and rental companies in your general geographical area to see if they will donate some equipment to your school department. What you’d be looking for is tripods, lighting kits, audio kits, batteries, chargers, etc. They will have already amortized their investment in the equipment out, thus it’s an attractive promotional deal for them in the community to donate the equipment.

Your tripod situation needs to be solved. I would either get the tripod serviced to free up the pan, or since the production you describe only calls for about a 15 pound setup of RED One, you may consider an affordable, lighter (as in more mobile) tripod. For the EFP loads you’ll be placing on a tripod and mobility you need, a decent tripod should cost you somewhere around $1,500 new. I would also seek a donated tripod as described above.

The RED 18-85 zoom has not been canceled. Current word is that it is still on the production schedule for early next year. That could change. The RED 18-50 zoom is probably too short in focal length for the work you describe. An affordable used S16 longer zoom, coupled with the RED Motor and Super Grip is a viable solution to shoot what you describe. In getting a used lens of any type you should spend the extra few dollars to have a good lens technician check the lens over before you buy it. Again, if you check around, you may find someone or some entity that has a used S16 long zoom that they would like to donate to your school in exchange for being listed as a benefactor for your department. It’s worth a try.

With B4 2/3” HD ENG zoom lenses, the extra few inches length and slight weight gain of the RED or Abakas B4 adaptors is not a problem. With the RED Rail system and many other shoulder mounts, you have the ability to balance the load by adjustment forward and backward. The RED Drive and RED battery also balance the load of the lens. B4 HD ENG zooms are not that heavy, in focal lengths of 18x on down – a maximum of 5 pounds, and many times less than that. RED One should have good latitude, and be a good low light camera, so I don’t see any slight stop loss by using an adaptor as being much of a problem.

Generally, the wider or longer a B4 HD ENG zoom lens is, the more expensive it is. New wide angle zooms, like the Fujinon 13 x 4.5, with a doubler, retail for over $30k. The new Fujinon 16x retails for around $26k. Longer zooms, over 18x, like maybe the Fujinon 22 x 7.3 retail for about $35k. Whenever you get a doubler on a zoom lens, you can expect to pay a lot more for the lens. My suggestion, based on your budget situation? I would definitely check with the TV stations and equipment rental companies in your area and see if one of them will donate one of their first generation used 18x HD ENG zooms to your school. Those lenses weigh about 5 pounds, don’t have a doubler, and have a used retail value of around $5k. Many of those stations and companies are now in the process of turning over their original HD lenses and buying newer lenses for their operations. You may get donated a lens. If it doesn’t have a doubler, so what. 18x is plenty of focal length to zoom to whatever you need on a campus, as you describe. You wouldn’t need a doubler at that focal length, or even at 16x without doubler. There are many used 16x HD zoom lenses out there that you may be able to get donated to your school.

In reference to your thread-opening post about a dedicated EFP version of RED One like you described, I don’t think you’ll see such a package for RED One right at the start. But with enough demand anything can happen on that. The EFP production industry absolutely dwarfs the cine-style production industry in terms of numbers of worldwide productions each year, and that won’t change. I believe that fact is what motivated RED to make such a flexible camera system in RED One. I fully expect RED and 3rd party accessory manufacturers to continue to address the EFP capabilities of RED One in the coming years. Until that happens, your best move is to do what the rest of us who shoot a mix of cine-style and EFP style production will do: re-lens and re-accessorize RED One for the project at hand for best utility possible. You don’t have to own everything. Your school can also set up an equipment rental account where you can rent the odd lens or accessory you may need. Beyond that, have you checked into leasing your RED equipment, lenses, and accessories, rather than a straight purchase? There are many equipment-leasing companies out there that specialize in leasing computer and motion media equipment. That’s another potential solution for you to check out.

In the above, I’ve tried to place myself in your shoes, needing to solve the situation you described. I hope this added input helps you.

[planet e]

great additional info regarding RED and EFP. thanks for asking the questions, timothy, and as always, gibby, for the incredibly thoughtful and comprehensive responses.

i'm a bit stymied myself about what to do with the change in lenses. on one hand, i love macro work--it's probably my favorite shooting style of all, so i'm happy that the 18-50mm has the macro feature, but i don't have that many actual business opportunities that require macro. so i was looking forward to the 18-85mm, which would have a more useful reach and be more germane to my biz.

if jim & co. would agree to the 18-50mm plus 85mm prime package that has been discussed as a possibility elsewhere, that might solve a few issues. it's fun to theorize, but really, i await input from real users experimenting in a range of situations. but especially EFP and run-and-gunners, because the most questions and challenges remain about how RED will perform in fast conditions. the shooter is going to have to step it up to meet the performance of the camera! so i'm excited to get geared up with my RED camera but also a little nervous.

[Steve Gibby]

Thank you for those kind words...

I originally reserved the RED 18-85 zoom. I will definitely be getting the RED 18-50 close focus zoom. I've handled the 18-50 zoom prototype, two weeks before NAB, and saw it in action briefly at NAB. For run 'n gun doc, sports, and other uses I think it will be a very good lens. Being light, small, and with it's close focus abilities, I expect it to be especially good for certain hand held sports (example: halfpipe), stabilization unit use, docs, etc. I agree, if RED would offer the 85mm prime in a package with the 18-50 zoom, it would be a real attractive package.

Input on real world use and testing of various lenses, inluding cine, 35mm still, and B4 2/3" HD ENG zooms is on the near horizon. I don't know if you noticed my posts about testing my RED #8 shortly in Los Angeles, but here's some links:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1922&page=4

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1975

[TimothyD]

Sorry I didn't reply sooner. I've been really busy the last few days and only found the time to defend the ENG/EFP section, which I think we should rename the "Ask Gibby" section in your honor:biggrin:

I couldn't ask for a better source for the information I specifically am seeking, and truly appreciate that you take the time to answer so many questions.

I will definitely see about used glass. Can you suggest any reputable vendors?

The idea about getting a TV station to donate a lens and other equipment is great. I had never thought of that and will definitely check it out. Though I do kind of doubt that any of the stations here in Michigan will have any lenses to donate, as HD has been slow to come in most of the state, maybe Detroit though. I suppose I could check with stations in other states.

I just found out today that it may be possible for me to put a hold on the funds for a while, which I didn't think was possible, so if I can do that I will at least be waiting until you post the results of your camera tests to make any decisions, and I may even wait to see if some reworked (or new) 2/3 lenses for single sensor cameras begin to show up.

I may even wait for the pocket camera, and in fact if Red would take my money I'd be willing to pay the full cost immediately (providing that if the lens is fixed it has a long enough focal length to suit my needs.) I wouldn't care if it was going to be a year or more before I got the camera.

Ultimately the university's PBS station going HD is the only real reason I am making the transition from SD. I shoot some pieces for one of the shows, and when they finally start broadcasting HD, my pieces have to be HD. The date for the transition hasn't even been announced yet because of some technical issues at the station, so I have a lot of breathing room.

The only thing that was making this a difficult decision for me is that I thought I had to spend the money right away or it would be gone. That may still turn out to be the case, but if so at least I have your good advice to guide me.

One more quick question though. Do you think that realistically from what you've seen, buying an S16 lens and using the supergrip and redmotor will be as good a setup for run and gun as a 2/3 lens setup? I have many times where things get nutty, so when I say run and gun, I mean RUN!:biggrin:

By the way, in case you are wondering. I should probably describe my work.

I am the one man audio/video/multimedia department for Public Relations and Marketing at the university where I work, and shoot/edit/create everything under the sun.

Here is a quick list:

PSA's
Commercials
Events (sometimes action packed, sometimes speakers on a stage and everything in-between)
Archival scenics
"News magazine" pieces
Mini-documentary style pieces (the biggest part of my job)


My hope is that I am going to have a camera that can serve every possible purpose, short of cine style stuff that is. There is no way I will be able to make a case for a new camera for at least 10 years judging by the life span of the rest of our equipment.

So that is why I've stressed over this decision so much. If I buy an HDV camera and hate it (I already do from the footage I've seen and the issues I know about with it) I'll still be stuck with it for ten years. The only thing that seemed remotely appealing in this price range was XDCAM, and frankly, as a variant of HDV I'm really not that sure I'd be happy with it either.

Red seems like a better camera than anything in the price range to me, not because it is 4k, but because it is modular, has a better codec, outputs full raster 1920 x 1080 (and then some) and is being produced by a company that is full of innovative people who I feel confident actually give a sh#t about their customers. The 4k for archival purposes is just icing on the cake to me.

Thanks again, and sorry about the length of my reply.

To quote a good friend of mine:

"I don't want to take up your time, but here's my life story"