Flying a Red One... [Archive]

Evin Grant

04-20-2007, 01:24 PM

http://www.reduser.net/evin/RedNAB/RedFly1.jpg
http://www.reduser.net/evin/RedNAB/Redfly2.jpg
http://www.reduser.net/evin/RedNAB/RedFly3.jpg
The first two are a Clipper I believe, Mikko?
The last is an Archer. There was some talk about a "Red Sled" for the Archer that could mount a Reddrive on the bottom and include an HD-SDI monitor. Both power, monitor and Drive cable would run through the post. We'll see if this comes around.

And a little free fall manuver by Brook Willard...
http://www.reduser.net/evin/RedNAB/BrookOP.jpg

Enjoy.
E.

Dan Blanchett

04-20-2007, 01:35 PM

Nice pics, Evin. Now RED making an affordable STEADICAM alternative would be even nicer... :)

(RED EYE Flight System?)

Alexander Nikishin

04-20-2007, 01:43 PM

Matt's a genius in design! The Red Rail system is a real solid setup.

Clayton Harper

04-20-2007, 01:43 PM

It's Peter Abraham on the Archer!

Hilarious dude, Peter.

Word up on a more affordable Steadicam. Archer runs you like 20k but it WORKS unlike the Glidecam and similar.

Chris Gearhart

04-20-2007, 01:45 PM

Great timing--I'm about ready to order an Archer. It looks sweet with Red flying atop it.

Brook Willard

04-20-2007, 01:47 PM

Regarding the handheld setup, we moved the handles farther down the rods to make it more comfortable before we went walking around with it. I carried it for a good 10-15 minutes walking through a casino. It feels like an Arricam LT with a hot mag.

Emmanuel Cambier

04-20-2007, 01:58 PM

Great!!
Now come on Brook, tell us how balanced did it feel, you lucky you.

Emmanuel

Tom Lowe

04-20-2007, 02:17 PM

nice!

Fix

04-20-2007, 02:26 PM

hehe... im visualize figrig and red in my head. Ok now its gone. :)

Steve Gibby

04-20-2007, 02:38 PM

hehe... im visualize figrig and red in my head. Ok now its gone. :)

If you have the RED side handles you can swim RED One hand held just like with a FigRig - if you're in a lightweight setup - and you're reasonably strong. A lightweight setup will weigh only around 13 pounds (body, small zoom or prime, Flash, battery, and LCD - no FF, no mattebox, or just a lightweight clip-on)

This is assuming that you're simply flying it to subjects, not needing to rack or pull focus...

Sanjin Jukic

04-20-2007, 02:42 PM

Absolutely fantastic!

Alexander Black

04-20-2007, 03:00 PM

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo whattabout that wireless FF? I saw the motor proto @ the booth, I'm sure the wireless unit will look like a small fold out tank with a red wheel. RED LEDs for markers! They won't screw up your night vision! :)

PaulClements

04-20-2007, 04:02 PM

A lightweight setup will weigh only around 13 pounds (body, small zoom or prime, Flash, battery, and LCD - no FF, no mattebox, or just a lightweight clip-on)

Steadicam flyer's not outside the realm of possibility at this kind of weight... or is it?

Brook Willard

04-20-2007, 04:17 PM

The Flyer will be usable with the RED ONE. I had a discussion with the Steadicam guys regarding weights and accessories with regards to their products. It'll be a tight fit, but a Flyer would be usable. The Archer is a more appropriate fit.

Steve Gibby

04-20-2007, 04:17 PM

Steadicam flyer's not outside the realm of possibility at this kind of weight... or is it?

The Steadicam Flyer and Steadicam F24 fly camera weights from 4.5 to 15 pounds, so yeah, a lightweight setup like I described should be possible on them. If someone already owns one of them, then I'd put it to use, if not, I'd look for another unit that will fly a bit heavier load so you have the option for more accessories is you need/want them.

EDIT: it was a race and Brook beat me to the Enter button at 3:17

PaulClements

04-20-2007, 06:00 PM

Thanks Brook and Gibby. The problem is that a unit that will fly a bit heavier has a sudden price jump unfortunately, at least if you want to use Steadicam over another manufacturer that is.

Priyesh P.

04-21-2007, 12:17 AM

The first two steadicams are not clippers, that´s the new top rig Ultra2

Brook Willard

04-21-2007, 12:22 AM

Correct, Steven Fracol brought by his new rig to show us. We were going to shoot with the setup, but a cabling issue prevented us from linking the HDSDI output to his monitor.

As for operating it handheld, a lot was learned from that setup. It handled quite nicely, but there are still things to think about. Handheld operating is hands-down my favorite, so I have a lot of experience with a lot of different cameras. I'm going to try and catch some time with Matt at some point to discuss my findings in a little more detail.

But as it stands... it's certainly nothing to sneeze at. This camera handles like a camera should.

If Mike or somebody else has some pictures from inside the hotel [with our RED entourage and 100 geeks following with cameras...], post 'em! They're classic.

Roberto B

04-21-2007, 12:39 AM

And a little free fall manuver by Brook Willard...
http://www.reduser.net/evin/RedNAB/BrookOP.jpg
till then i had just a good impression on you.. after now, i can say beyond your natural sympathy, brook you're good looking too.. though not so different than who writes these lines by now.. :clown2:

Brook Willard

04-21-2007, 12:43 AM

And I thought Kelly was the only one who gets hit on on these boards... :tongue:

I'm sure you can all imagine just how much I was geeking out with that thing on my shoulder. I was biting my tongue just to keep myself from exploding the whole week. I have a lot of work to do in the next few weeks... gotta rewrite my FAQ... write a report on my findings about the camera... work on some tests... moderate these forums... maintain a job... oh, and graduate.

More info soon enough...

Roberto B

04-21-2007, 12:56 AM

And I thought Kelly was the only one who gets hit on on these boards... :tongue:lol

but She (capital letter) is a special one.. i'm serious :love:

i'm just a writer/director who needs to work for living.. if i was a beta tester-shooter i wouldn't go in any way other than as a special photogenic subject.. not only a pretty face.. i love particular actresses.. i said particular not general.. :blush:

edit
i stand corrected.. not actresses.. characters.. special :sorcerer: ones..

Priyesh P.

04-21-2007, 01:06 AM

Regarding a special Red-sled, it would be nice to use a Red LCD directly on the Archer rig.
OK, only if that one is bright enough and readable in sunlight - any info so far ?

Brook Willard

04-21-2007, 01:29 AM

When we were having issues with the HDSDI cabling, I offered to mount the RED LCD on the Steadicam for temporary monitoring and was declined. Unfortunately we didn't have a long enough LCD cable to mount it low enough for the operator to really use it.

That said, with the appropriate cable, it wouldn't be a problem. It would be an external snake. Even on Steadicam rigs with customizable internal cabling, the LCD cable is a thick, stiff 17-pair design that wouldn't work too well in a tight space. It's possible [the cables are, of course, prototypes], but not desirable.

So yes, you could mount the RED LCD directly to the Archer rig if you wanted to. It is bright enough and is readable in sunlight, though a sun shade wouldn't hurt.

But consider the size of the screen... it's really meant for the AC or the operator. A Steadicam operator will want a larger screen.

I see the LCD coming in handy on a Steadicam when the rig is in low-mode. In low mode, an operator will generally have to change his operation method as the screen is where the camera usually is. While some rigs allow for more options, I've found low-mode operation with a high LCD to be quite awkward. One could mount the RED LCD on the camera body, putting a small, self-contained LCD where the LCD "usually" is in normal operation.

The sky's the limit.

Fix

04-21-2007, 02:26 AM

A smal question Brook. How heavy was the setup you had on your shoulder. Like comparing vise to other cams.

Alexander Nikishin

04-21-2007, 02:48 AM

lol

but She (capital letter) is a special one.. i'm serious :love:

Every girl working the Red booth was cute, if you weren't there, you missed out Finner. :blush:

Evin Grant

04-21-2007, 11:36 AM

A smal question Brook. How heavy was the setup you had on your shoulder. Like comparing vise to other cams.

That particular setup would have been just over 20Lbs.

Brook Willard

04-21-2007, 11:56 AM

Yeah, probably 20-25lbs. And that's the prototype... solid aluminum accessories and a slightly overweight camera.

Greg Voevodsky

04-21-2007, 01:52 PM

I'd really like to see RED loose as much weight as possible - especially - with the cage, rail, and handle.

Camille Herren

04-21-2007, 02:22 PM

Brook, how is the grip on these handles when operating handheld? Being that they are just straight and seemingly thin?

Priyesh P.

04-21-2007, 02:48 PM

Some thoughts on Tiffen´s Ultra2 Cine Steadicam:
I know that this thing was designed with cameras like 435, ARRICAM LT / ST, Panavisions, Sonys etc. in mind. But in conjunction with Red it looks really overbloated. That thing weighs ready ( but w/o camera ) around 20 Kg, that means with a Red the stabilizer is going to weigh roughly 2,5-3 times more than the camera.

I´ve worked with a Steadicam Video SK + Canon XL1, and even that was heavy with a classic vest, not speaking of the experince with bigger rigs I had. What I want to say is that weight has to be a much bigger focus on the Steadicam side itself.

Great operators like Jimmy Muro ( Terminator 2, Titanic etc. ) for example use two rigs for their work, an ultralight one with a special 35mm CineSL MOS camera and a second, big Steadicam for the syncsound shoots with heavier cameras.

We can even apply this problem to other areas, I think weight is a very underestimated factor in filmproduction generally ( I know, some stuff has a lower weight limit for stability issues ) but I´ve quite often heard complaints from people about dollies that weigh a quarter ton or heavy lighting equipments etc.

Everybody suffers from equipment overweight that induces loss in efficiencies of different types, be it bigger/more trucks, more crew, more time needed to move things, bigger / heavier stuff can´t be hidden that easy and so on.
Ok, just my 2 cents.

Brook Willard

04-21-2007, 04:22 PM

The Ultra2 is almost overkill for the RED. It's fine with the camera, but it's a big-cheese rig and it's not cheap.

The handles felt fine or handheld operation. These particular prototypes were made of some sort of rapid-prototyping plastic and weren't as solid as the final version will be. The handgrip design itself is very solid and comfortable. For size comparison, I'm 6'4" and can palm a basketball.

Ralph Oshiro

04-21-2007, 06:46 PM

The Steadicam Flyer and Steadicam F24 fly camera weights from 4.5 to 15 pounds, so yeah, a lightweight setup like I described should be possible on them. If someone already owns one of them, then I'd put it to use, if not, I'd look for another unit that will fly a bit heavier load so you have the option for more accessories is you need/want them.
I fly a Sony DSR450 on my Flyer with the EVF stripped off, and still have about 2" left above the gimbal (remember, the VCT-U14 adds another 1.5 lbs. to the package). Since cameras are typically powered from the sled's batteries, I only have to devise a clever way to mount the HDD cage. I power my Flyer with Anton Bauer ProPak14s (heavy, at about 5 lbs. each). I plan to use Nikon lenses exclusively, so lens weight is not an issue. I also plan to buy the RED LCD for monitoring, and will mount the LCD directly to the RED body. Again, the only problem is deleting the RED rail, while still being able to mount the HDD somehow.

Storyline

04-21-2007, 08:47 PM

Same here with a DSR-500, no EVF but with a heavy-ish Cannon wide zoom with 2x extender and handgrip (front heavy). It flies well, if a bit close to the top of the post. How heavy are the RedRails? Anyone able to guess?

Brook Willard

04-21-2007, 08:49 PM

It's not worth guessing at this point - their weight is going to change dramatically before shipping.

dalemccready

04-21-2007, 10:25 PM

I'll be using my Ultra with the Red...

I'm just not going to be telling anyone that the camera's light!

Gotsta keep up the reps!

The laydees like it when you turn beet red...

The other day I used a BL4S on the Ultra and maxed it out completely, and couldn't raise it up to the actors eyeline without making funny wheezing and squirting noises.

Bring on the light (just between us) Red One!

;)

Brian D. Goff

04-21-2007, 10:48 PM

I´ve worked with a Steadicam Video SK + Canon XL1, and even that was heavy with a classic vest, not speaking of the experince with bigger rigs I had. What I want to say is that weight has to be a much bigger focus on the Steadicam side itself.

One thing not to forget, is that it is a law of phisics, that the more mass your rig has, the smoother your shot. And if you start shooting with longer lenses, you'll realy see the diferance between a light wight rig and a more heavie one. If you get into a windy situation, you might want to add "antlers" or gyros - add 15pounds right there:cold:

jbeale

04-21-2007, 10:53 PM

Brook Willard

04-21-2007, 11:01 PM

Don't expect the RED ONE to weigh that much... unless you like making your accessories out of lead.

Priyesh P.

04-21-2007, 11:10 PM

semi-related- One of O'Connor's heads is listed as being able to work with a 240 pound load. http://www.ocon.com/products/fluid-heads/120ex.html

I'm not familiar with what fully tricked-out cine setups weigh, but are they seriously even close to this? Or is this intended as a boom arm support? But the way it's listed on their web page (center of gravity 8" above head) seems to imply a camera.

This max load spec has another cause.
The higher the load is, the more load capacity is needed, so if you have a 40 pound camera that is really top heavy or on a riser platform ( soever ), you´ll need a fluid head with more capacity, 40 pounds will probably not be enough.

Finner

04-21-2007, 11:15 PM

Every girl working the Red booth was cute, if you weren't there, you missed out Finner. :blush:

Hi Alexander,

That quote was not me it was Filmakers gang that stole my avatar. I had hope that one of the moderators would mention to those kids that it was not cool to do that. Its been over a month so I have decided to change it over so the HOFF it is. HOFF was in vegas doing a stage show durring NAB so I found that fairly funny. I had the chance to hang with a lot of the RED crew and met a lot of members from here. The footage was stunning and I am looking very forward to getting my camera.

Cheers,
Finner

Priyesh P.

04-21-2007, 11:18 PM

Brian D. Goff

04-21-2007, 11:46 PM

BTW, How´s your Red-Actioncam project going on ?
Do you intend it as a single-action-arm system ?

Priyesh

Hi Priyesh

We're just about there - still wresling with the price:ninja:

The "RED d'lite" s based on our big system the "zero-g", so you can up-date to the full blown version if needed. You can start out with a single arm version and then grow grow grow.

Brian

Priyesh P.

04-21-2007, 11:57 PM

Brian,

Thanks for the info.
Hope to see some pics in the next time.

Regards,

Priyesh

dalemccready

04-22-2007, 02:14 AM

One thing not to forget, is that it is a law of phisics, that the more mass your rig has, the smoother your shot. And if you start shooting with longer lenses, you'll realy see the diferance between a light wight rig and a more heavie one. If you get into a windy situation, you might want to add "antlers" or gyros - add 15pounds right there:cold:

Mr Goff is absolutely right here. I find the difference is really noticeable between 16mm cameras and a heavy solid 35mm camera (pick one, there are a few). I did a couple of years on a series with a 535B. Once your ftness comes up its very hard to go to a lighter camera, the heavy mass creates a really smooth look, you point it and it stays there. I used to think the 535 was like a supertanker, taking a real effort to turn it.

But then again if you're doing a long shot, you want the lightest camera you can get. Having the option of both here with the ability to make the camera heavier or lighter depending upon configuration is excellent.

Also very rarely do Steadicam Ops get to do interesting angles with superposts (or extendable posts) which require a solid rig but lightweight camera.

Roberto B

04-22-2007, 02:31 AM

Hi Alexander,

That quote was not me it was Filmakers gang that stole my avatar.don't worry finner boy.. :turned: with this gang and your new avatar that won't happen again.. :whistling:

Daniel Reichenbach

04-22-2007, 02:32 AM

Hi Priyesh

We're just about there - still wresling with the price:ninja:

The "RED d'lite" s based on our big system the "zero-g", so you can up-date to the full blown version if needed. You can start out with a single arm version and then grow grow grow.

Brian

Hi Brian, good to have you here. Your Action Cam would be definitifely be a good choice for RED, in my eyes, it's one of the best in the world, and it looks quiet like the RED design ;-)

Fix

04-22-2007, 06:53 AM

Yeah, probably 20-25lbs. And that's the prototype... solid aluminum accessories and a slightly overweight camera.

aaah. well thats pretty much what I espected from that shoot. Now if you drag with you a red cam ++ up on a mountain, you got to loose your pants. If you cant get a chopper that is. You would anyways beat the 16mm in the end of the day.

:cold:

Brian D. Goff

04-22-2007, 07:51 AM

Hi Brian, good to have you here. Your Action Cam would be definitifely be a good choice for RED, in my eyes, it's one of the best in the world, and it looks quiet like the RED design ;-)

Hi Dani

Remember this one:devil:

Fix

04-22-2007, 08:07 AM

haha nice rig goffb! how was those "matrix" shoots in the end?

Brian D. Goff

04-22-2007, 08:27 AM

haha nice rig goffb! how was those "matrix" shoots in the end?

go to www.actionproducts.ch , then "downloads" and then "krebsliga"

Daniel Reichenbach

04-22-2007, 08:29 AM

Hmm, this was a really great thing, bad I don't have a quicktime to show you, brian has it on his webpage I guess. We build a rigg with twelve light wight SLRs, a super 16mm Bolex and flew with this rigg over the beach, it was quiet a great idea and it worked out well. I was inspired by the first Matrix Movie and wanted this bullet effect on a steady.

Daniel Reichenbach

04-22-2007, 08:32 AM

You see me running behind Brian and fireing the 12 SLR at the right time. First day, it was a mess, to find the right moment, but then it worked perfect. As a controll for the shot, we put a fingercamera on the viewfinder of the bolex and on the other end, there was a miniDV. So, when this bouth pictures were in the frame, then the shot was done. Easy, he?

Daniel Reichenbach

04-22-2007, 09:13 AM

By the way, next time,the RED mini will do this job, or we put 12 RED minis on the rigg, what you think, Brian, how much weight would you allow on your steady....

AftonGrant

04-22-2007, 10:32 AM

Hi Brian, of course that´s a factor.
But we´re also talking about some heavy shifts in technology
( Red camera, led based lighting etc. ).
So I´m wondering why there seems to be so few improvements in
this particular issue ( weight ).

There have been more solutions to accommodate the range of light to heavy cameras in the past couple years than ever before. Just look at how much the Steadicam line has grown, and you'll see evidence of that.

The top of the line systems remain a certain size for very good reasons. One being what has already been mentioned - more mass = more inertia = more stable shots. The other is that the sled must be within a certain weight range in order to properly balance with any number of cameras.

If the sled itself were to be as light as it possibly could be, in order to balance, you would either need to add a ton of weight to the bottom, which would go against the weight save in the first place, or you would need to extend the length of the sled to a very long, unwieldy length.

A system such as the Ultra, or any other top of the line system, is far from overkill for the RED. Once you get all the necessary accessories on the camera (lenses, mattebox, filters, transmitter, FIZ control, etc) it will be in a very comfortable range of weight for operating Steadicam. Not too heavy, not too light. Any seasoned operator will be conditioned enough to be able to operate all day without problem.

The trend in the industry does seem to be towards smaller cameras. However, a good Steadicam op and his/her gear are prepared for anything. Perhaps in 10-20 years when everything has gone small, you'll see the change in the support equipment. But as long as there are still all different shapes, sizes and weights out there (and yes, I was recently asked to do a shoot with the BL4, which I respectfully declined), the size of the support equipment will not change much.

I'm very much looking forward to working with one. Unlike its demon-spawn cousin the Panavision Genocide, I think the RED will be very popular amongst Steadicam ops.

Best Regards,
Afton Grant

Brian D. Goff

04-22-2007, 11:24 AM

By the way, next time,the RED mini will do this job, or we put 12 RED minis on the rigg, what you think, Brian, how much weight would you allow on your steady....

The ActionCam can handle it - can I:wink:

dalemccready

04-22-2007, 01:09 PM

If the sled itself were to be as light as it possibly could be, in order to balance, you would either need to add a ton of weight to the bottom, which would go against the weight save in the first place, or you would need to extend the length of the sled to a very long, unwieldy length.

...well put Afton.

I run my Ultra with a large zinc diver's weight on the bottom and have since we put the kit together. With most cameras I run, the steadicam would be too long balanced up without the weight.

The Ultra is already pushing that "too light for the camera" setup. With a RED I'm suspecting it will be very comfortable indeed, no diver's weight required. Also no viewfinder, no monitor, no battery, and sometimes no drives (flash only). Low mode never looked so appealing (might put the monitor back for that on top of the camera so I don't have to look up when my feet are down)

Dale