Panavision Genesis - looks like video

[deepc0re]

Why does the shoots done with genesis scream video?

I have now just seen forbidden kingdom and you can see right away which shoots that has been done with the genesis, they don´t intercut well with shoot done with regular film in my eyes.

The same with the movie 21 which was all done with genesis, it screams video!

Does it has something to do with the shutter angel used? It has this smeared motion blur of some sort that looks like it was shoot on a cheap video camera.

But The Bank Job which has been shoot with the Arri D-20 does not have this look, and neither does any of the red footage I have seen.

[Kenn Michael]

The only shots in Forbidden Kingdom that were shot on 35mm film were super slo-mo shots that were higher than 50-60fps.

You're probably reacting to the 1/24 sec shutter speed that the DPs used at times for more light sensitivity.

[deepc0re]

Yes, I´m thinking especially about the low light scene in the woods where they have a camp fire.

There were also some scenes with quite bad keying but that´s another story :)

[Noah Kadner]

Kinda depends. I've seen a number of Genesis films in the theatre and the only time it really starts to look video is when they switch off the shutter- you start to see motion trails. That's a giveaway. If they light it up enough to keep the shutter on it looks pretty much like film. But then again the whole idea is personal perception.

Noah

[Keith Neff]

Why does the shoots done with genesis scream video?

I have now just seen forbidden kingdom and you can see right away which shoots that has been done with the genesis, they don´t intercut well with shoot done with regular film in my eyes.

The same with the movie 21 which was all done with genesis, it screams video!

Does it has something to do with the shutter angel used? It has this smeared motion blur of some sort that looks like it was shoot on a cheap video camera.

But The Bank Job which has been shoot with the Arri D-20 does not have this look, and neither does any of the red footage I have seen.

We just did the dailies for an ABC pilot shot with the D21 and I would agree, it looked great, not edgey at all.

[Charles Angus]

Two things:

Edge enhancement/sharpening. Very video-y.

Bad lighting.

Avoid these two common pitfalls and you can make an HVX look like film (on a TV, anyway...).

I have seen a RED filmout that looked very video-y, and I would say it was because of those two things, not any fault of the camera.

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Two things:

Edge enhancement/sharpening. Very video-y.

Bad lighting.

Avoid these two common pitfalls and you can make an HVX look like film (on a TV, anyway...).

I have seen a RED filmout that looked very video-y, and I would say it was because of those two things, not any fault of the camera.

And there are people that think lowering the camera "sharpening" on HD/V cams defeats the purpose of HD.

The first thing to do is almost zero that option in cameras like these.

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

This video look must be very subjective because I've seen my fair share of Genesis movies and it rarely makes me think "This looks like video"
especially this "plastic" look people keep talking about on this forum which makes me wonder if anyone knows what plastic actually looks like.
The only time Genesis really looks like video is when they start doing whip pans in low light areas there is just something about the motion that reminds me of video.

[JayEmm]

You're thinking of 360 degree (or, in video terms, 1/24 sec) shutter speed. It gives a fluid motion look (often confused with interlacing). Miami Vice is the biggest (and worst) example of this. I believe this would be technically possible with film too, but you'd lose your viewfinder image!

[Sarah C.]

I actually saw some 35mm footage get mistaken for GenesisHD footage on 720P playback. I guess it has to do with what is lensed.

~S

[NateWeaver]

I believe this would be technically possible with film too, but you'd lose your viewfinder image!

Not really, because the film has to shielded from light at some point during it's move through the gate. Maybe with a rotating prism movement, but I doubt it even then.

Anyway, I've seen this complaint before with the Genesis/F900/etc. Whenever I've gone to see the shots in question, it's always been a shot where they used 1/24th shutter. It's always a dead giveaway, because 1/24th shutter, to my knowledge, has never been possible with a film camera.

[Harry Clark]

JayEmm,
You cannot do a 360 degree shutter with a film camera. The shutter needs to be closed while the movement advances the camera to the next frame. If you expose the film while it moves through the gate you get streaking (as seen in Saving Private Ryan late in the D-Day scene, vertical highlights etc.) Both Arri and Panavision have boxes that let you intentionally streak, and control the direction and length of the streak.
Even on a video camera, the "360 degrees" is really something less (like 359) because the imager needs time to reset itself.
Either way, I really dislike the 360 degree shutter look. It's a cheap way of getting more light, but at some point I'd rather see grain from gain boost...
Just my taste I guess...
Cheers,
Harry

[Harry Clark]

Ha!
Nate, you beat me by 4 minutes!
Harry

[liquidigital]

I don't mean this in any disrespect, I will be purchasing a Scarlet or two myself, but I think the Genesis looks more like film. That doesn't undermine the achievements of Red and it is simply my perception.

[Zaphod]

See if you can pick the difference here:

http://media.panavision.com/ScreeningRoom/Screening_Room/IGFC/ScreenTest/ScreenTest.html

[Charles Angus]

Too compressed too tell.

To re-state what I said before, I think it's edge enhancement more than anything.

360° shutter doesn't bother me.

[JayEmm]

JayEmm,
You cannot do a 360 degree shutter with a film camera. The shutter needs to be closed while the movement advances the camera to the next frame. If you expose the film while it moves through the gate you get streaking (as seen in Saving Private Ryan late in the D-Day scene, vertical highlights etc.) Both Arri and Panavision have boxes that let you intentionally streak, and control the direction and length of the streak.
Even on a video camera, the "360 degrees" is really something less (like 359) because the imager needs time to reset itself.
Either way, I really dislike the 360 degree shutter look. It's a cheap way of getting more light, but at some point I'd rather see grain from gain boost...
Just my taste I guess...
Cheers,
Harry

Thanks guys, I was thinking about that one myself after I put the post down. I'm not from a film background (too young) so I'm not 100% certain about my science there.

Still don't like the look though, and I agree with Harry about taking some grain/colour noise over motion smear any day. Still, Michael Mann (and DP) managed to get both with Miami Vice!

[Charles Papert]

I've worked on a number of Genesis projects and have seen various of them projected in the cinema and on the HD pay channels. If properly shot, I think it's as film-like as digital gets.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

superbad looked good

[Sarah C.]

Have you guys compared shooting Genesis on hard drive vs. tape? Any quality differences?

thx,
Sarah

[Evin Grant]

If your talking hue S2 system it would be superior to tape because it's truly uncopressed Vs. HD-CAM SR which is lightly compressed.

[Chris Newman]

I did the Panavision comparison, and I picked correctly in all three cases. Obviously the difference is subtle, but I noticed a couple of things:

1) The shadow detail under the car held up better with the film.
2) With the film, the subtle color variations in gradients were smoother, especially on the red car.
3) Highlights in Genesis were blown harshly in at least one point on the silver car.

So, not suprisingly, it mostly comes down to dynamic range.

[Dan Sturm]

See if you can pick the difference here:

http://media.panavision.com/ScreeningRoom/Screening_Room/IGFC/ScreenTest/ScreenTest.html

I was able to guess them all correctly as well, however, I wasnt looking at dynamic range or color at all. Watch the motion blur in the trees in some of the quicker pans and some of the vertical lines. The film is just softer and smoother.

I dont think an audience would notice any of these differences and I dont particularly think any of the noticable characteristics are bad, just noticable.

[Gunleik Groven]

Had'em all righ, too
Highlights and tones...

[Charles Papert]

The suggested workflow for the SSR flash mags is that you immediately transfer it (in real time playback) onto the HDCAM drive (SRW), so theoretically there wouldn't be an advantage in picture quality. It's MUCH better to work with the SSR for handheld and Steadicam--makes a massive beast into a package that is quite comparable to a full-size 35mm camera. However I would say that a properly equipped RED would still be an improvement for either of those modes.