View Full Version : Cineform.. A Request...
Jay A. Kelley
09-01-2008, 08:33 AM
Mr. Taylor and Mr. Newman (You guys sound like spys when I word it like this).
Please review this discussion currently going on:
In short it discusses the problems of going from HD (Or RED) rez and the quality change and/or loss when taking a file from HD down to SD, or evern converting to 1080p for Blu-Ray.
Now I realize that is may not be exactly what you do, but I am told quite often about how you are all into "workflow".
I would like to ask for a set of specific instruction for taking an HD Cineform file all the way down to a 1080p formatted for Blu-Ray and also SD-DVD as well.
From a business standpoint: there seems to be enough desire for this kind of workflow that you would get additional customers JUST so that could transcode to your format in order to have a dependable way to get their product to 1080p Blu-Ray and/or SD dvd.
I too have suffered with this issue, and since your "program" is supposed to be the "last" codec I will need due to your workflow inventions, it makes sense that I would come to you in order to ask how to make final delivery files with the same or near quality as what I have been editing with.
You understand the software and compression better than anyone, and I evern remember Thor calling me on the phone one time and telling me there were some issues with vertical or horzontal lines when downconverting.
So far I have been converting to flash files from AE so I have had no issues to speak of, but without a doubt, moving to DVD or Blu-Ray is the most important delivery format we will all face.. It would be worth it's weight in gold to know how to take my Cineform file to such a format and retain the image that you all work so hard to keep.
Jay A. Kelley
PS: As if you did not have enough to do....
Birns and Sawyer
09-01-2008, 01:22 PM
I agree. A nice way to get 1080p would be very useful for our customers as well, as it's the best quality quicktime deliverable that they'll want for now at least.
09-01-2008, 03:20 PM
I would like to this to Jay's request...
Better tools for conversion from 24 / 23.976 to 29.97... from within the Premiere Pro Export options.
Somewhere in the Export dialogue, there should be a check box that allows you to select the method of pulldown you would like to use to convert your "cinematic" frame rate to the "vanilla" frame rate that is most often used.
09-01-2008, 03:44 PM
better tools for going out from the premiere timeline would sure help. 8bit is not enough...
Also with our tests, a filmscan2 2048 output from the timeline using CINEFORMAVI export introduces lots of compression artifacts(using build 179) compared to a DPX from redcine...not acceptable, and only viewable when you color correct pretty hard.
At this time the only way to get a RED file out in a format we can work on for special shots with heavy color treatment is redcine exports.
Do this test David N:
1shoot 4k redcode with a nice blue sky in it
2load into REDCINE and export DPX 10bit 2048
3take same shot and convert to cineform filmscan2 or whatever your best settings are at 2048
4load both converstions in AfterEFfects and set it to 16bit for effects
5load on a RGB curves tool and take your darks down really far and your lights almost directly above the darks creating a curve that is closer to a vertical line then a curve, in other words push it hard David
6look at results both DPX and Cineform. you will see what we are talking about, your sky will fall apart with compression artifacts, the RED dpx files will look very clean, no visible artifacts
I fully understand that "most" people will not push things this far, however we are using a technique that requires this type of push for some visual effects work and it' can't look compressed like this.
09-01-2008, 03:55 PM
from my little Blu Ray experience ( all 2-1 aspect)...
i take Red4k files and render out (onMac) to cineform 2k ( which i believe are now 8 bit)... i then take the 2k QT cineform to PC and edit using sony Vegas ( set up as 2k) ..
when i render out for blu ray (i change project properties to HD 16x9), i then crop the clips from 2k to 1920 and leave height as it was in the 2k 2-1 aspect = so when viewed i have small black bars top/bottom of frame ... when i tried scaling the 2k to HD 16x9 i could see the image was slightly softer then if i crop the 2k to 1920 ...
i don't do 4k down to SD ....
i recently tried Premiere trial version (on Vista ) and Redcine pretty much stopped working ... i used system restore and Redcine work ... loaded in Premiere again and same results ..
Jay A. Kelley
09-01-2008, 06:24 PM
I'm glad you guys have jumped in with me on this.. I'm guessing the David's have a life and decided to do something other than read this thread on Labor Day.. What does this say about us?!?!
Anyway, I'm looking forward to their response.
09-01-2008, 07:34 PM
It says that I am working...all weekend long and into the latest of late hours every friggen day of the year. That's my life. I don't have one.
09-01-2008, 07:35 PM
installing xp64 right now to see if it helps LAME ASS Adobe Premiere and it's stupid "out of memory" errors with everything from Cineform to r3d files...:)
meanwhile...babysitting a 2k FINISH render of the film from the Premiere Timeline into 2048x858 tiff files :) things ARE looking sweeter..:)
09-02-2008, 04:58 AM
Standard def is not a high quality option from any software that I know about. It takes a good hardware down converter with motion adaptive circuitry to get rid of the pesky aliasing and shimmering horizontal lines that show up in an SD interlaced image. I always make a 1080 master and then play out through a hardware down converter recapturing on another edit system for my SD master. Teranex is acceptable but the best is a Panasonic or Sony HD VTR's built in down converters. I use a Panasonic deck in EE. Companies like Teranex are working on software down converters, but an acceptable solution might be several years away if ever. Solving this issue might be a little to much to expect from CineForm.
Jay A. Kelley
09-02-2008, 05:06 AM
Ok.. If they say that's true, what about a 1080p Blu-Ray can they deliver on that?
Jay A. Kelley
09-02-2008, 07:40 AM
Ok I feel a little stupid right now.. But I am a guy and it's in my makeup NOT to read the directions... Don't know when this appeared, but here it is:
09-02-2008, 07:43 AM
We are working on distribution grade SD downconversion for a range of customers. There should be no issue with 24p 1080p BLuray masters, but it is the interlaced outputs that need some additional filtering, and we working on that.
09-02-2008, 07:45 AM
Jay, that page works fine for existing HDV cameras, issue is the image bandwidth contained in Red images, or other high end sources.
Jay A. Kelley
09-02-2008, 08:00 AM
Thanks David... It's cool to know someone has my back on this..
09-02-2008, 03:06 PM
If you can make great SD down conversions it will be one more reason why CineForm will soon rule the world. I would like to send you an R3D of a car grille with the camera booming down through the shot on a jib. I'd also like to send you the shot down converted to SD through my Kona 3 and a down conversion to SD made through my HD Panny deck. You will have to at least do as well as the VTR to really have solved this issue.
09-02-2008, 03:36 PM
Please send them my way.
09-02-2008, 08:41 PM
I'll email you and we'll figure out the best way to get it you.