Connecting EXT Timecode

[ibirds4]

Reading the RED manual it appears the only option for connecting ext timecode is a JAM SYNC function which when enabled looks for ext timecode when the camera record button is pressed and then runs on its own.

Is this correct that this is the only option for ext TC and there is no EXT TC RUN mode?

[Stuart English]

Correct. So to ask the follow up question, what would you want / expect an EXT TC RUN mode to do?

[Karl Roeder]

Does the camera have to remain connected to an EXT TC source?
Can I sync once to a Sound Devices HDD in the morning and then trust the camera to maintain sync for the day? During battery changes?

[ibirds4]

I'd want a mode that not only jams to the first frame of the Timecode generator I'm hooking up to the camera and then runs on the REDS own timecode generator from that point on but instead uses timecode exclusively from the timecode generator. (I.E. I'd Jam the sync box in Free Run mode from a TC equipped sound recorder then set the RED to external TC Free Run in which timecode on the RED would only run when receiving Time Code from an external Time Code Source.

In the current set up, from what I read, it sounds as if the first frame is the only frame that is 100% reliable. I've just heard too many horror stories of people jamming their Sound Devices or other TC enabled recorder to the RED and then watching the RED timecode jump multiple seconds in time in a matter of less than a minute.

[Steve Freebairn]

Well, we've had great luck with using external timecode. Using a lockit box or just straight from the hdd recorder.

[Nick Shaw]

If you jam sync the Red every time you change battery it holds sync perfectly for as long as the battery lasts. If it doesn't, you're doing something wrong. Particularly if you use something like a Denecke box which sends tri-level sync and TC to the camera it has no reason to drift.

[Stuart English]

I've just heard too many horror stories of people jamming their Sound Devices or other TC enabled recorder to the RED and then watching the RED timecode jump multiple seconds in time in a matter of less than a minute.

Really? Have you had that experience yourself, or heard it relayed to you. As its not our experience at all.

Are they trying to sync the camera TO the external source, or to sync the external device FROM the camera?

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Stuart,
There has been a discussion on another thread that relates to this topic:

Does RED have a spec related to time code drift over a given period of time?
In other words - if one were to power up multiple REDS with AC - over 24 hours, what is the accepted tolerance in the difference of frames.
Some variables may be different batches of TC electronic components, perhaps even the build.

Ambient boasts an accuracy of a half frame maximum drift per 24 hours... Since they are responsible for the TC electronics in the Sound Devices recorders, I've been very comfortable synching a 744T with various cameras with lockit boxes providing sync and code and never having the issue of the two (or more) drifting away from each other over the course of a day.
If I am considering second system sound, it's a no brainer to use a lockit box - I would not expect RED to guarantee sync to a third party.
But, if you have 3 or more REDS shooting at the same time, how close will they be to each other at the end of the day?

P.S. - the other thread I am referring to is about someone synching up 7 RED's to shoot a concert - that's a good example - some could be locked to continuous power and recording audio - others that would float may not have continuous power or audio - he has two threads going in the ENGEFP section...

Thanks

[Dexter Gregoire]

I own a Sound Devices 744t and I'm using the latest firmware from Sound Devices connected straight to the RED with the RED Ambient timecode cable. I've only seen timecode being off sometimes when I exit playback.

I must say that when I drive a car I look at the Odometer very often, and when I'm shooting RED with my Sound Devices 744T I look at my sync often.

I don't see a drift if the recorder and the camera are set at the same frame rate. I sometimes see a difference exiting playback. Check your Jam Menu sync often.

Menu option 51 - Jam menu with the new firmware.
Menu option 49 - Jam menu with the old firmware.

[Stuart English]

Does RED have a spec related to time code drift over a given period of time? In other words - if one were to power up multiple REDS with AC - over 24 hours, what is the accepted tolerance in the difference of frames.

I would not expect RED to guarantee sync to a third party. But, if you have 3 or more REDS shooting at the same time, how close will they be to each other at the end of the day?

We were aware that cameras generally have had time code drift issues, so we made sure to pay attention to this aspect of the design.

We don't have a spec that relates to drift between two or more cameras over a 24 hour period, as a) the camera is battery powered so its not really a use case, and b) we'd recommend using some type of external sync signal when you shoot multi-cam anyway. We have also run parallel record tests using the RED ONE and Sound Devices (if I recall) as the audio recorder. Syncing them only at the start we saw absolutely no drift over a four hour continuous record.

Also remember that if you do not have a sync source attached, you MUST re-sync each time you change battery or after a variable-speed recording.

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Stuart -
Thanks for that response! I was concerned because there were some people in the other thread that were recommending shooting a visible slate in the background and mathematically calculating offsets. Ohh no - I feel the pain of that poor editor. Had to do that myself a while back - not intentionally.

I am a firm advocate of using externally generated time code and sync whenever I'm using 2 or more devices. Depending on the type of shooting, drift over an extended period may show up on REDs - but I am encouraged by the results of your 4 hour test with the Sound Devices recorder.
There will be situations where the camera will be powered via an extended battery such as the A-B UCLX system, hot swappable sled or AC.

There should be a "best practices" guideline that conveys to users the importance of keeping sync with the timecode. As well as addressing some other time code issues such as matching code with different frame rates.

Could a future version of RED be built to hold time code during battery changes? (Please???) The 744T uses a removable NiMH AA battery to hold accurate time code for 2 hours after powering down and external DC power sources removed. (Time and date are held for 60 days)
If it doesn't fit into RED - place it on my EPIC feature wish list!


Thanks again Stuart!

[Alex Carr]

Best Practice is having 2nd AC jam the Denke slate to the camera after every time he changes a battery. All you have to do is hook up the 5-pin lemo for a few seconds and it Jams, without having to go in menus and check - uncheck Jam sync

[Tai Wah Lim]

Best Practice is having 2nd AC jam the Denke slate to the camera after every time he changes a battery. All you have to do is hook up the 5-pin lemo for a few seconds and it Jams, without having to go in menus and check - uncheck Jam sync

Alex, anyone - To set up, I connect the Denecke to the Red Timecode in. Jam synch and let both run. Disconnect and both should run the same TC until we change battery as mentioned. Lim

[walter sobchak]

On Build 20 we use the Denecke Box SB-2 @ 24fps.
When the box is attached before the camera is turned on, the RED won´t boot at all. It starts flickering on the back LCD and then the display switches off completely. The display never shows >booting< as it normally does when you turn on the camera... In short, nothing happens.
I never used the box before. We have Ambient boxes here.
Our technician measured a 4V peak to peak TC out of the Denecke and 1,1V pp out of the Ambient. The latter we use everyday on Red and HD camcorders without an issue. Is the Denecke really outputting SMPTE TC? How come that a lot people seem to use Denecke on RED without a problem?
Thanks

daniel
berlin
germany

[a kines]

I synced up 5 RED's (build 20) and a ProTools Venue FOH system for a concert record. We used a Ambien smart slate, 5 clockits and a Ambien TC master generator going into the FOH audio system. It was cobbled together last minute and I had to make sure that the camera's would sync easily in post. We shot the smart slate and clap on every camera so we had redundency in case anything failed. Jammed the boxes from the master every 4 hours in a 12 hour day.
One camera at the end of the day was 1 frame off for the last 2 takes. I think the 9volt in the Clockit was dead or dying.

Audio was a pain as their ProTools Venue was not a film production ready system and the operator was new to film style production. We recorded the TC as audio on a spare track and I was able to extract it but the assistant found it faster to use the slate clap to sync the audio.