New to film industry and have questions

[Kyle Hance]

Ok. So a little background. I'm a 17 year old high school senior who probably spends WAY too much time reading these forums and everything else I can find about Red, Apple, and the film industry. I'm not ignorant, as many of you are probably thinking after learning of my age... However, I don't know everything. And by that I mean I have a LOT to learn. I really enjoy filmmaking and really push my available hardware/software to the limits. REALLY. I have a PowerMac G4 (dual 533 Mhz w/ 1 GB RAM), iMovie '06, and a consumer Panasonic camcorder...... I know. Pitiful. However, I do have a friend who has a G5 w/ FCS and have been able to get some good experience using his comp. I'm also taking a video production class this year and will get some experience with Premier Pro CS3 (and possibly After Effects, if we get to it). The only problem is that I know more than my teacher does- and all because of these forums...:blush: Yet, even though I've been able to decipher things and learn a ton on my own, there are some things where I've never had that 'lightbulb moment' where everything just clicks and I get it. Therefore I decided to call upon all those who are upright and kind among these here parts and see if some of you can solve my confusions...

And for the questions:

1. I've seen this discussed in threads, but am still confused. What determines how shallow DoF is? Sensor size? Amount of the sensor being used? None of the above?.....

2. Lenses.... Ultra primes. Master primes. Primes. What's the difference? Just quality?

3. More about lenses.... This may seem ignorant... Is it possible to mount a DSLR lens to the Red?

4. And some more lens talk.... Ok. 18-50mm. 50-150mm. 300mm. What does this mean? Are these the distances between the glass in the lense?.... I've just never been able to figure this out.

5. Nikkor. Are these both still and motion lenses?

6. f stop and t stop. What the crap? Explanation please... With a cherry on top....

7. ISO or ASA......? I know it has to do with the shutter speed... Or something... And are the terms just the same thing?

8. Ok. I can't remember all of this correctly. But there's something to do with Hz. I may have to find what I'm talking about again and clarify. But, if by some chance you understand, does this have to do with refresh rate?... That sounds wrong.... I think I just need to find it again and clarify.... :unsure:

9. What's the best MBP configuration for editing 2K in FCP or Premier for $3k?

10. Where does everybody find all the hi-res red logos?! I've been wanting it to make an avatar... And I can't find it... :glare:

That's enough for now as this is getting somewhat long and the 'rents are nagging me to get to bed... (college is beckoning my name :sarcasm:)
So, it'd be greatly appreciated if some of you could answer these questions. I may have more later.....

[Manfred Lopez]

Oh boy... I hope you don't take this in the wrong way. But I think these forums are intended to bring together a community of like-minded people together who occasionally help each other out in solving problems that are at the bleeding edge of development of new technology... and not for teaching someone EVERYTHING from scratch just because he or she asks for it.

How about if you apply to a film program and in four years see if you still have questions. Sorry, I don't mean to sound too harsh but your post comes across as a little too imposing and needy for my taste. Having said that, I strongly recommend you use Google to search for all your questions. I myself have questions all the time, but I try to look them up before asking for help because I personally am afraid of coming across as incompetent or worse: helpless (something not good for someone who wants to make a living by being a dedicated problem-solver... which is what being a filmmaker is really about).


Here are some websites to help you in your journey to knowledge:

reduser.net
scarletuser.com
dvxuser.com
cinematography.com
cinematography.net
dvinfo.net
filmmaker.com
studiodaily.com
creative cow (dot) net


All your questions have been discussed and answered beforehand somewhere by someone. It's just a matter of finding them. Good luck.


P.S. If you still want to ask questions here, I strongly suggest you ask one thing at a time. I think you will find a lot of people more inclined to answer you this way.

[David W. Jones]

First off... Even though you might think you know more than your teacher,
Very Very rarely does a 17 year old student know more than his or her teacher. And gleaming the internet for bits of information is in no way a substitute for real world experience.
Might I suggest you pose these questions to your teacher.

[M_Sanderson]

6. f stop and t stop. What the crap? Explanation please... With a cherry on top....

Hm.. this bit is bugging me a bit.
You have to be very careful on forums and any online medium, like instant messaging, basically anything you type. As you can't read your tone, or see expressions this post can be wrongly interpreted.

I would be very surprised if your teacher doesnt know the answers. Its basic photography, buy a book, photography for beginners or something.

[Harva Raj]

2. Lenses.... Ultra primes. Master primes. Primes. What's the difference? Just quality?


The main difference is that the Master Primes are one-stop faster than Ultra Primes. They are also a bit sharper with less distortion, have more clarity, but at the expense of being larger and heavier. And more expensive.

[Wayne D]

oh to be young again.............

you are trying to sprint before you can crawl but 10 / 10 for enthusiasm from me.

i'll help you with #10 - http://gallery.me.com/elcuradin#100024

the day you think that you know morw than the next guy (even your teacher) is the day when you will land flat on your butt.

my question to you is what do you want to be?
director....camera opp........editor......compositor????

and you better reply because if you can't take this very mild flack then this business is not for you.

[Dan Hudgins]

1. I've seen this discussed in threads, but am still confused. What determines how shallow DoF is? Sensor size? Amount of the sensor being used? None of the above?.....

Shallow DoF is the result of the f/ stop used in relation to how far away the subject is. If you look into the front of a 50mm lens and adjust the iris you can see the width of the iris change with f/ stop. f/ stops are the relation to the width of the opening and the focal length. The larger the f/ stop the wider the triangle of the rays from the edge of the iris to the point of focus. Likewise the triangle on the subject side is wider when the iris is wider, and also the cone angle is greater when the subject is closer. So you get shallow DoF when the f/ stop is wide (low f/ number) and the subject is closer. When the sensor is large the focal length of the lens must be large also, so a 35mm lens of 50mm gives the same view as about a 20mm lens on 16mm, at f/2.0 the opening on the 20mm lens will be less than half the 50mm lens, but if the subject is the same distance the cone angle for the 20mm lens will be smaller also. So when the subject is close and you use a large iris opening you get a background that is more out of focus. The size of the sensor and lens focal length are not an issue for flat subjects since DoF relates to things out of the plane of sharp focus, i.e. how much they can be out of focus before you notice they are unsharp. When you use the RED ONE (tm) with a f/1.2 lens you get more blur in the area of the frame that is out of focus than you would on a small sensor camera with a f/2.8 lens. Having the baclground and foreground very out of focus makes the viewer concentrate on the subject in the focal plane, and so is used in drama as a tool to help tell the story without distraction. It is the job of the DP and Director to tell the story, DoF, POF, POV, and Close-up shots are part of the language of filmmaking.




2. Lenses.... Ultra primes. Master primes. Primes. What's the difference? Just quality?

Someone who has used these can speak better about these details, but I will say that the OPLF filter's job is to blur the image on the sensor so that the light goes to four pixels, so although very good lenses might show some detail on film, on the digital camera, lens contrast may be more important than resolution, infact high resolution may make chroma moire and alasing worse. Also you should never stop a lens down past f/11 if you want 4K and the lens is good enough to resolve 4K, better to use f/6.3 or so. This has to do with the nature of light. Stops larger than f/ 6.3 or so will have less sharp images because of the difficulty with aberation correction. Good movie camera lenses can resolve maybe 30lp/mm wide open at 80%MTF, and maybe 60lp/mm at 20% MTF. In the theatre the projection lens might resolve 30lp/mm to 20lp/mm at 80% MTF and being a little out of focus might be giving 15lp/mm to 10lp/mm at 80% MTF, so the camera lens used will make only a small difference in the audience perception. Lens distortion (fish eye barrel distortion) , chromatic aberration (rainbow fringe), and in focus upsidedown reflectons are much more visible in the end result, cheep still camera lenses may show those more than very good movie camera lenses.




3. More about lenses.... This may seem ignorant... Is it possible to mount a DSLR lens to the Red?

If you read other posts there are various mounts for the RED ONE camera, there are some things to think about:

1) Some SLR or DSLR lenses may focus with the focus ring turning "backwards" which can confuse the follow focus operator.

2) The mounts for SLR and DSLR lenses may have some "play" so that the image wiggles around when you focus in and out in the same shot.

3) The focus marks painted on SLR and DSLR lenses are almost always WAY off, good movie camera lenses are better to focus by tape with since the distance marks are closer to being true. If you use SLR and DSLR lenses you should check the focus distance marks and remark if needed.

4) Some older SLR lenses are very good and may be better than the cheeper DSLR lenses made today, so try the lens on your RED ONE before you purchase it if you can to see what it realy looks like in real shooting.



4. And some more lens talk.... Ok. 18-50mm. 50-150mm. 300mm. What does this mean? Are these the distances between the glass in the lense?.... I've just never been able to figure this out.

The focal length is the point where a X forms between the sensor width and the subject area width. The smaller the mm value the wider the subject area you will see in the image. In many lenses that focus by moving the lens in and out the focal length is longer as the subject gets closer.

A 18-50mm would give you all the typical shots you need for interiors, of the three this would see to me the most useful for most shooting. On a 35mm movie camera you can shoot a whole feature film with a 28mm lens. At 18mm you will see most of one wall of a room, at 50mm you will get about 1/3 of a wall in a room with the camera back as far as you can get.

A 50-150mm would be good for shooting outdoors where the subject is more than 6 feet away from the camera. Indoors a 50-150 would be used for tight shots of the actors face or close-ups on deatils, you can use a diopter on a 50-150mm to get very close shots. A 50mm to 150mm is useful for close head shots, 75mm being a good setting to use.

A 300mm is for shots where the camera will be more than 12 feet from the camera, like a surfer, sports, and nature subjects. Long lenses show more interveaning haze than shorter lenses, it is something you would not use as much as a 18mm to 50mm for making a normal feature film.



5. Nikkor. Are these both still and motion lenses?


Nikkor made some printing lenses for motion picture, but few 35mm movie camera lenses, most of the Nikkor lenses used on 35mm movie cameras are still camera lenses. Because the Nikkor cover "VistaVision" they are not quite as sharp on the smaller 35mm frame size as maybe some lenses made for movie cameras, but since the newer Nikkor lenses are multi-coated that can give higher contrast than older movie camera lenses, like Cooke Speed Panchro Series I, and so were used for FX shoots.




6. f stop and t stop. What the crap? Explanation please... With a cherry on top....

f/ stop is what the ratio of the iris width is to the focal length, T/ stop is an abstraction. To find the T/ stop of an f/ stop for a particular lens you use a special light meter behind the lens, you read a special fixed brightness target and OPEN the lens until the light going through the lens is equal to the "perfect" lens, e.g. you adjust the meter to read f/4.0 you then set the lens to f/4.0 but the meter reads f/4.5, so you open the lens up to f/3.2 and the meter reads f/4.0, so you mark the lens there T/4.0 for "true" or Transsmision stop. The T/ stop will always be for an iris opening LARGER than the f/ stop since the lens does not transmit 100% of the light and may only transmit 50% of the light which would have all the f/ stops one stop slower than the T/ stops.

T/ stops were developed when zoom and retrofocus lenses (and coating) came in because they were 1/2 to 2/3 shop slower than the Baltar and Cooke Speed Panchro lenses, in order to change lenses and have the film cut together with the same exposure you use the T/ stops to set the exposure, but you use the f/ marks to find the DoF in the Dof tables of your cameramans manual.




7. ISO or ASA......? I know it has to do with the shutter speed... Or something... And are the terms just the same thing?

On a digital camera this should be EI not ASA, but on a light meter they find the same exposure. ISO and ASA are standards for film exposure, or started that way. On a digital camera they original meaning gets twisted. The right term is EI (Exposure Index) which is a single point reading for light meters, not a gamma slope like was used to measure film speed.

In the RED ONE camera the analog sensor gain seems to be fixed, so the camera is EI 320 all the time, in post the gamma curve is adjusted to make the mid tones lighter to allow underexposure (higher EI numbers) or to make the mid tones darker (lower EI numbers). You can adjust the curves, levels, and gamma in color correction software like mine to get a wide range of effective EI values from the same RAW sensor data, but there is more noise in the dark areas so when you pull that up in brightness you will see it more, and if you "overexpose" the sensor you will get more clipping of the highlights so there are limits on how much you can "alter" the natural speed of the sensor in post with CC on the frame images.

[Dan Hudgins]

Too much text so I had to break it into two parts...



8. Ok. I can't remember all of this correctly. But there's something to do with Hz. I may have to find what I'm talking about again and clarify. But, if by some chance you understand, does this have to do with refresh rate?... That sounds wrong.... I think I just need to find it again and clarify.... :unsure:

Hz is names after Hertz a guy that measured waves, it used to be called "Cycles per Second" or cps.

In video the fps was fps*2=VHz (Vertical cycles per second) because 2:1 interlace was used. It was 60Hz or 60cps so that the AC line ripple would stand still in EIA video standard. When color came in NTSC changed the VHz and HHz, so the fps became (1000/1001*60)/2=29.97002997+Hz.

Because move film runs at 24fps (60Hz/2.5) due to the use of 60Hz sync motors on movie camera for sound films, to show movies on TV without the frame sync drift moves are sometimes shot at 1000/1001*24=23.97602398+Hz.

The NTSC video Hz put the frames out of sync with the line curent and move camera standards. In Europe they sometimes shoot at 25fps so that they are in sync with the 50Hz power.

The shuter angle of the camera (exposure time) needs to be adjusted to reduce flicker for some kinds of light sources, this angle depends on the frame rate and the line power Hz, at 24fps and 60Hz you use around 144 degrees.




9. What's the best MBP configuration for editing 2K in FCP or Premier for $3k?


Someone else can answer this, I will just add that you do not need FCP to edit at 2K, you can do that with the DOS copy command and a batch file for free, and use VirtualDUB to make an uncompressed AVI. My system is a little better than the DOS copy command...




10. Where does everybody find all the hi-res red logos?! I've been wanting it to make an avatar... And I can't find it... :glare:

Right click?




That's enough for now as this is getting somewhat long and the 'rents are nagging me to get to bed... (college is beckoning my name :sarcasm:)
So, it'd be greatly appreciated if some of you could answer these questions. I may have more later.....

If you want to make feature films, you can, money should not be a roadblock to your goals. If you want to make money, that is more of a challange.

[Manfred Lopez]

Too much text [...]

Whoa, that is a looong response. :weight_lift: I hope this kid at least thanks you.

[number6]

Kudo to the young guy for being brash enough to ask the questions... 10 Kudos to Dancad3d for taking the time to answer them.

This should be made a sticky for all newcomers who are at sea about the terminology of all things camera.

[P Andersson]

First off... Even though you might think you know more than your teacher,
Very Very rarely does a 17 year old student know more than his or her teacher. And gleaming the internet for bits of information is in no way a substitute for real world experience.
Might I suggest you pose these questions to your teacher.

a young kid can pick up a lot of information with enough passion - i had to correct my photo school teacher a couple of times when I was seventeen - still great to have access to all the gear though

[Tom Lowe]

DANCAD3D.com wins the M. David Mullen Infinite Patience Award for September. http://www.reduser.net/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Babu Kantamneni]

DANCAD is kindest man in this thankless world.
Cheers to the young boy for his enthusiasm.
Babu

[M Hsu]

Your best bet is to get a DSLR and learn about lenses, exposure and lighting first.

Good for you knowing more than your teacher. I am kind of the reverse, I believe that everyone has something to teach me down to the homeless guys on the street.

[Tim Fassnacht]

great responses DANCAD, thats really cool of you.

[Giancarlo Bianchi]

Kyle, It`s always good to know how far you can get, and believing you can is a good tought.
But there`s always a need for a little humility. Think for a moment that the things your teacher can teach you, are almost imposible to learn trough a internet forum (example: For DOF you`ll need pretty fancy charts and sketches to understand it better, and the contact with the lenses and someone who knows better by your side to show the differences).
I can advice you to speak toy your teacher, and stay "after-class" if you have more complex questions than your classmates. I really doubt your teacher is ignorant, but he has to make shure everyone can keep up.
So like maxwax said, never understimate what you can learn from a certain person, place or circumstance.

Rember Ignorance is Bliss, but Knowledge is Power.

DANCAD3d, Thanks for your posts!!!

[Kyle Hance]

First off... Even though you might think you know more than your teacher,
Very Very rarely does a 17 year old student know more than his or her teacher. And gleaming the internet for bits of information is in no way a substitute for real world experience.
Might I suggest you pose these questions to your teacher.

I guess that came across as a little arrogant, which I didn't mean for it to be. The teacher my school chose is an older existing teacher that has very minimal knowledge of how to start and stop recording and very simple editing (like in Movie Maker). It's the first year for the class and they basically chose him so they could say they have the class available. He doesn't even really understand simple concepts such as HD. He thought that by plugging in a HD camcorder into a SD projector we would get a HD projected image... I agree that in most cases students do not know more than the teacher. But this really is one of those very, very rare situations...


Hm.. this bit is bugging me a bit.
You have to be very careful on forums and any online medium, like instant messaging, basically anything you type. As you can't read your tone, or see expressions this post can be wrongly interpreted.

.....

I guess I should've worded that differently... I'm sorry... I just wanted to show my confusion with these 2 terms. Sorry if I offended you. :(


Oh boy... I hope you don't take this in the wrong way. But I think these forums are intended to bring together a community of like-minded people together who occasionally help each other out in solving problems that are at the bleeding edge of development of new technology... and not for teaching someone EVERYTHING from scratch just because he or she asks for it.

How about if you apply to a film program and in four years see if you still have questions. Sorry, I don't mean to sound too harsh but your post comes across as a little too imposing and needy for my taste. Having said that, I strongly recommend you use Google to search for all your questions. I myself have questions all the time, but I try to look them up before asking for help because I personally am afraid of coming across as incompetent or worse: helpless (something not good for someone who wants to make a living by being a dedicated problem-solver... which is what being a filmmaker is really about).

.............

All your questions have been discussed and answered beforehand somewhere by someone. It's just a matter of finding them. Good luck.


P.S. If you still want to ask questions here, I strongly suggest you ask one thing at a time. I think you will find a lot of people more inclined to answer you this way.

Sorry I came across a little forward... I just want you to know I'm not starting from scratch. :) I've been researching this industry religiously for the past 3 years, and I'm a quick learner so there's a LOT that I've crammed in my noggin. I guess the way I worded the title of the thread gave the wrong impression.... And I'm sorry for that. I presented these questions because some of these things have been itching at me for a couple of months now and I was hoping that somebody could help me out with my few questions.

Which is EXACTLY what Dancad3d did!
THANK YOU! Thank you soo much Dancad3d! I now understand. Especially for your f/ stop and T/ stop answers... That was really bugging me, but I get it now. Again, thank you!

[Dan Hudgins]

I now understand.

I always wished that there was someone I could ask for help, but I just had to try things and read books, so I understand how it feels to need a spark to start the fire of understanding.

Still today I have many issues that would be sooo much easer if I had a bit of help. People on this RED USER forum have helped me with some questions, this is a unique place, but I understand those who would like to keep most of the Q and A to issues with the RED ONE (tm) camera. If you have questions you feel are a bit too general about filmmaking you can PM or email me, my email is on my Web site.

Even though its a little out of date, it is still one of the best general books about independent filmmaking from the camera point of view,

Lenny Lipton: "Independent Filmmaking"

Here is a link to purchase it, if you do not have the money to purchase a copy you can use the Inter-Library Loan system to get a free copy to read. The Inter-Library Loan system can get you any rare filmmaking book, I have used it to get books for which their may be only one copy left in my studies for film editing theory,

http://www.amazon.com/Independent-filmmaking-Lenny-Lipton/dp/0879320109

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlibrary_loan

If you want to make a 35mm film now is the time, its days are numbered. I have been offering to pay for the film and processing, shoot and light, but can't find anyone around here that wants to shoot film anymore, they all are into mini-DV or something...

[Kyle Hance]

I look back on this thread and my only regrets are that I should have stuck up for myself more and should have apologized less. It really kind of amazes me at how many were so disgruntled by my post. Yes, the questions seem trivial compared to what I've learned since then, but at the time these were pressing issues to me. Personally, I love sharing the information that has been given to me any chance I get with anyone that asks. Seems rather human to me.

I'm still very thankful for your posts, Dan. Your information spurred an even greater thirst for learning within me. People like you are rare and special.

We all need someone to believe in us. Sometimes one person can spark something incredible in a life. Unfortunately, the negative attitude towards the younger ones on this forum tends to stifle a lot of that flame. Guess we'll just have to keep fueling our own flame and show you guys what we're really made of :thumbsup:

[Zakaree Sandberg]

hehe...

read man.. your doing the right thing.. just forum browse, get on some college student films.. learn the basics.

dont worry about gear. editing equipment the nicest lighting.

your a blank slate.. dont get distracted by technology.
just story tell.. even with a POS camcorder and junk editing system..
i mean iphone 4 takes good video and has an editing program, so you could just come up with an idea.. shoot it on that and then edit it same day..

but story first!

story before tech
if its the other way around, creativity can be lost.

[Tim Hole]

He he!! Sorry but don't get me started on Film School lecturers. Also it is more than possible to learn on these threads equal to what a film school lecturer knows about the practicalities of shooting. 99% of lecturers either are/want to be directors or are academic theorists. They have more than a basic understanding of the filmmaking process but are more geared up on formalism and structure than anything else.

I've worked in six film school environments, one of which is supposed to be one of the best in Europe. I can argue against film schools and lecturers till the cows come home. Let practice, passion, books, dvds and the internet be your films school.

[Carlos D Marrero]

Hi.

This thread may be a little old, but I want to take the opportunity since it was brought up again.

Last year I started on a local school for a cinematography degree, and boy there was a lot to be desired. Here are some of their teachings:

* Cinema is precursor to photography
* Put two TV sets next to each other and one of them will show a lag of a few minutes (same signal, signal source, etc!!!!)
* The lens converts light to an electrical signal
* Sound a light travel at the *same* speed

These are the ones I remember, there are more... by the way, I could go on with their "Introduction to computers" offering, but I guess I am going too much out of topic already :-)

That's why I was not surprised the least with his claims of knowing more than his teacher (and also why I fled that place!).

[Mark Collins]

He he!! Sorry but don't get me started on Film School lecturers. Also it is more than possible to learn on these threads equal to what a film school lecturer knows about the practicalities of shooting. 99% of lecturers either are/want to be directors or are academic theorists. They have more than a basic understanding of the filmmaking process but are more geared up on formalism and structure than anything else.

I've worked in six film school environments, one of which is supposed to be one of the best in Europe. I can argue against film schools and lecturers till the cows come home. Let practice, passion, books, dvds and the internet be your films school.

Can't argue with that. Film schools are more or less a way to pad your address book and learn the absolute basics. The people that graduate and make it in the industry are the ones that go out on their own and learn constantly.

There is no substitute for practical experience.

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Huge props to Dan Hudgins, a very knowledgable guy who's very patient and willing to share what he knows.


He he!! Sorry but don't get me started on Film School lecturers. Also it is more than possible to learn on these threads equal to what a film school lecturer knows about the practicalities of shooting. 99% of lecturers either are/want to be directors or are academic theorists. They have more than a basic understanding of the filmmaking process but are more geared up on formalism and structure than anything else.

I've worked in six film school environments, one of which is supposed to be one of the best in Europe. I can argue against film schools and lecturers till the cows come home. Let practice, passion, books, dvds and the internet be your films school.

Filmschool (which is not really filmschool here in Brazil, more like graduation on cinema) was a nice kickstart for me, got me around the basics but by the second semester I was already researching like crazy on the internet and also joined RED user.

Books, RED user and good off-college seminars were huge contributors to what I know today.

And I forgot to mention practice because of how obvious it is. I did lots of short films with my friends and continue to do. Always raising the bar every new project.