Red Two

[Desert Rune]

Indulge my silliness for a moment...

Now that we sorta know what to expect from the Red One camera (beautiful, stunning 4K images, amazing dynamic range, etc), what would you like to see the geniuses at Red pull off for their next iteration?

This is a wish-list, of sorts.

I'd like to see:

1. a High Dynamic Range imager (imagine never having to worry about locking down the correct exposure each time, able to pull out-of-this-world dynamic range). Is this even possible?

2. Overcranking up to 120 frames per second for some amazing slow-motion.

:sorcerer:

[Joshua Murray]

yea, and maybe a native anamorphic widescreen sensor? instead of 16x9...

[Jaime Vallés]

I'd vote for on-camera Redcode RAW at 60p or more as my #1 request.

[Dan Blanchett]

Super high speed 500+ FPS at 4K or even 2K would be awesome. :gun: The Phantom is a pretty sweet camera, but it's priced out of this world. However, I think I'll happy with the RED ONE "as is" for a good long while. I'm sure RED will incrementally increase the FPS at higher resolutions as technology for moving large amounts of data improves... and it should be an easy upgrade path (I hope).

[David Mullen ASC]

Or a set of 1.33X anamorphic lenses to get scope images into the full 16x9 sensor.

One could increase exposure range by adding a fast and slow layer of sensor sites, but by doubling the number of sensor sites into the same area to do that, you tend to lower sensitivity.

Forgetting cost and complexity for a moment, how about:

A bigger, more expensive RED (RED Deluxe? RED Studio?) with an optical viewfinder and spinning mirror shutter. When you're talking about 4K capture, there is a comfort factor in operating by looking through the actual lens to judge focus.

A modular RED (sort of like the Sony T-block approach) where the sensor & lens can be separated from the processor to create a smaller profile for certain shots.

And the 1.33X anamorphic lenses...

[andersh]

Do you really think that there will be a "red two"? I've always thought the "red one" was named that way because Jim liked the thought of something like this to transpire on a set:

DP: Would you please hand me the RED ONE?
Assistant: The red one? Which one?
DP: The RED ONE right there!
A: The camera? The black one?
DP: Yes, the camera, the RED ONE.
A: But, I'm very sorry, but the camera is black...
DP: Of course it's black! It's a RED ONE.
A: The camera is black... because it is red... Alright then. Ehm, on the subject of colors, are you sure we shouldn't set a white balance before we shoot?
DP: (deep sigh), yes, we will use the REDCINE afterwards.
A: Yes sir, a red sign after, not a white sign before shooting. How silly of me.

[Roberto B]

let it be as it is.. a 4k camera for the masses.. we the poor ones.. we need it.. affordable.

[sander kamp]

Intelligent autofocus that tracks the faces of the actors or something else and locks on to them.

[Michael Stanmore]

The red one is amazing.

Yeah, as moore's law keeps computer systems evolving a billion times faster than we humans there will be scope for the Red camera to capture images that are:

higher dynamic range (eventually HDR+)
higher frame rate
bigger in size

there's really no reason why it should stop... other than it no longer being practical. There's really no need to go bigger than the 4k images they're producing now... some HDR applications would be good for VFX and a couple of other things... but I don't want to see HDR cameras allowing DOPs to be lazy... after all they're supposed to be artists really.. let's not get lazy. The camera is still just a camera. We've got to wield it properly or we'll just have some very high resolution home videos.

Yeah, the frame rate thing is one of those things. It'd be a luxury to be able to to super ramping just with the camera you have all the time, rather than organising VFX shoots with the Phantom, or film cameras that do high frame rates... but it's a luxury... it'll happen soon enough...


I agree that a nice optical viewfinder would be handy. I was at NAB2007 and when I checked out the Arri D20 they've got it happening on there, which looked great and was extremely functional.

but if that's gonna double the cost of the camera then forget it. It's true that if the Red Camera is going to be used by world class DOPs on major hollywood films, they might want an optical viewfinder... so maybe a more expensive version will be built... but the rest of us can get by... expecially if we can pipe a nice big clear image out of the camera live to a big HD calibrated monitor...

I like the idea of an anamorphic size sensor...perhaps with the Red's modular design they will simply make a different version with an anamorphic "Mysterium2.35" inside, so you can choose...

But shooting at 4.5k... it really isn't necessary. we can crop the top and bottom and still have a bigger, full rez image than ever before!!!

[Milan Nikolic]

I am sure the RED TWO would be 8K camera. Japanese have one already but it is a big impractical beast, thus RED TWO should be much more handy.

[Dennis Guskov]

There's really no need to go bigger than the 4k images they're producing now...

I keep seeing statements like this one and every time something else pops into my mind: when in 1981 Bill Gates said that "640KB of RAM ought to be enough for anyone" (even though it may be a myth, its meaning does not diminish). Technology and expectations never stand still. Maybe in less than 5-10 years we'll want 8k of resolution and will not accept anything less. What I'm seeing today is HD being obsolete even before it becomes common-place. I remember when HD first came out and was reviewed, people said it was great and they could not see the different between HD and film!

[Desert Rune]

8K would be nice. IMAX for the masses. :w00t:

[Milan Nikolic]

This is what I would like to see in new RED for pocket:
1. Same MISTERIUM image chip as RED ONE
2. Possibility to make 12MP photos
3. Possibility to make video: 2K, 1080p, 720p
4. Some kind of efficient auto focus system
5. Removable lenses
6. It should come with small zoom lens
7. It should be unobtrusive as mach as possible
8. It should be pocketable even one should have lens in other pocket
9. It should have built in microphone and interface for external mic
10. It must have interface for audio monitoring (small ear buds)
11. It should not be heavier then 700 grams.

I have full trust in RED team that this could be done! But, am I wishing undoable? This is what many people thought about RED ONE as well!
:biggrin:

[Vincent Rice]

I keep seeing statements like this one and every time something else pops into my mind: when in 1981 Bill Gates said that "640KB of RAM ought to be enough for anyone" (even though it may be a myth, its meaning does not diminish). Technology and expectations never stand still. Maybe in less than 5-10 years we'll want 8k of resolution and will not accept anything less. What I'm seeing today is HD being obsolete even before it becomes common-place. I remember when HD first came out and was reviewed, people said it was great and they could not see the different between HD and film!

There is a diminishing return however; especially when we are dealing with finite human senses. For instance I don't think audio will ever be recorded at over 192k in our lifetimes. Its hard to see what possible advantage 8K resolution would have.

[David Mullen ASC]

Oversampling always helps reduce aliasing problems and whatnot -- 8K downrezzed to 4K would looke great in 4K, just as 4K downrezzed to 2K looks better than 2K origination.

Plus any digital IMAX camera should be at least 8K, if not 10K.

An 8K camera/projector would also be useful for special venue projects like the "Back to the Future" ride (which uses Omnimax projection I believe.)

[Tom Lowe]

Oversampling always helps reduce aliasing problems and whatnot -- 8K downrezzed to 4K would looke great in 4K, just as 4K downrezzed to 2K looks better than 2K origination.

This is why I plan to finish my RED feature at 2K.

I agree that you would want like a 6K camera if your intention was to finish at 4K, generally speaking.

[Zack Birlew]

*EVERYTHING BEYOND THIS IS THEORY, NOT FACT*

The ultimate purpose of having 8K and beyond, in my opinion, would be for the single purpose of having full control of an image. Perhaps you want to get closer to an actor in a wide shot, where the performance really was, you could then zoom in and get a closer shot and not lose quality and have a fine close shot. This would require no shallow DOF blurriness as most of us seem to want these days, the deeper the depth of field the better. In this sense, you would not only use up less drive space, but time as well by getting, assuming that the shot involves two characters talking to eachother, a wide shot and two close ups of the same scene. Multiple takes would still be necessary since you would have to get different angles for over the shoulder stuff and things like that, however, you get a clean slate to choose from with each setup. Another reason would be to have better camera shakes or, even better, smooth digital pans from within one frame setup. The more resolution the better, especially when it can give you very small details from a distance.

That's just an idea of what I think more resolution will get us. Of course, more resolution can also greatly help if you want to film for 3D.

*END OF THEORY*

What I want to see in a RED Two is just more built onto the RED One. More FPS, 8K, and 2.35:1 would be fine with me. After that, all we'd need would be more FPS and more resolution, maybe even a 3D sensor if possible, heck you never know! :gun:

[I Bloom]

I'd vote for on-camera Redcode RAW at 60p or more as my #1 request.

I second that. But hopefully we won't have to wait for Red Two for this feature, hopefully this will emerge as an add on feature extension card, such as the RAM drive that has been discussed here.

IB

[Peter McCully]

I second that. But hopefully we won't have to wait for Red Two for this feature, hopefully this will emerge as an add on feature extension card, such as the RAM drive that has been discussed here.

IB
That's right. If there is anything users will want to see in the near future it will be extention of frame rates.

[JD Holloway]

I like the idea of a "Double Tap" exposure, where at 24 fps/48th frame, the time the chip is idle is used to expose in a "pulled" mode, say 25 or 50 asa and the data is used to generate a ghost image that can be matted for highlight detail using a software algorithm in post and/or real time LUT.

I have no idea how feasible this is but.. then a 4k camera is impossible in 2 years so...

[Phillip Hudson]

Variable framerate up to 60 at least and let me stick my Nikon lenses on there and I'll get one. Heck, I'll get two!

[David Mullen ASC]

I like the idea of a "Double Tap" exposure, where at 24 fps/48th frame, the time the chip is idle is used to expose in a "pulled" mode, say 25 or 50 asa and the data is used to generate a ghost image that can be matted for highlight detail using a software algorithm in post and/or real time LUT.


Trouble with this idea is that you are still talking about successive or sequential exposures, so any movement of the subject or camera would mean that the two exposures that make up one final frame don't line-up precisely, causing smear & lag.

[Häakon]

This would require no shallow DOF blurriness as most of us seem to want these days, the deeper the depth of field the better.

Perhaps I'm just reading you wrong, but I don't think that "the deeper the depth of field" is what "most of us seem to want these days." RED's own marketing in particular is quick to point out the shallow DOF properties of the RED ONE camera, and I think most DPs prefer a shallower area of focus with which to tell their story and lead the viewer. This does not apply to everyone, obviously, but probably the majority. I don't see a future "RED TWO" camera reverting back to wider DOF for purely aesthetic reasons.


This is what I would like to see in new RED for pocket:
5. Removable lenses
It's just my guess, but I doubt that a "pocket" version of the RED ONE is going to have removable lenses. In fact, I would go as far as to venture that this will be the primary difference between the new pocket camera and the RED ONE unit. Most of the other features are software-specific, so they can easily port over to a new version of the camera without difficulty. Trying to fit that 300mm prime in your pocket, however, isn't very realistic. :-P


If there is anything users will want to see in the near future it will be extention of frame rates.
I agree completely. This and a slightly-wider latitude response are really the only benefits that traditional celluloid acquisition has over digital anymore.

[Dennis Guskov]

The ultimate purpose of having 8K and beyond, in my opinion, would be for the single purpose of having full control of an image.

Imagine what kind of optics you'd need to keep the quality of the picture, to be able to zoom in and still have no blur. And good luck with pulling and maintaining critical focus. We'll need a lot more innovation before we're fully ready for 8k, IMHO.

[Joe Vinson]

Ooh, ooh, make it so it cures cancer!

[Ralph Oshiro]

Integrated anti-gravity support vest and cloaking device (for shooting without permits).

[d. sweetman]

yea, and maybe a native anamorphic widescreen sensor? instead of 16x9...

...you mean ~1.2:1? that'd be sick, but probably not used often enough to justify it -- or native 2.4:1 either, best to stick to actual anamorphic glass.


It's just my guess, but I doubt that a "pocket" version of the RED ONE is going to have removable lenses.

They referred to it as a "professional" camera, which means removable lenses with out a doubt I think. Fixed glass seems isolated to "prosumer" cameras, which they made pains to say it will not be.

[Phillip Hudson]

They referred to it as a "professional" camera, which means removable lenses with out a doubt I think. Fixed glass seems isolated to "prosumer" cameras, which they made pains to say it will not be.

I agree. A fixed lens is very prosumer. Try naming one professional camera that has a fixed lens. There are none. If it has a fixed lens it's a prosumer camera.

As for it not being pocket-sized if it has interchangeable lenses, that's bullcocky. Put lens in left pocket, camera in right. Join them together and you'll become Chinpokomon Master and defeat the Evil Power. :ninja:

Please, RED GODS, give the POCKET RED a NIKON mount and I'll give you my soul. :holloween:

[JD Holloway]

Trouble with this idea is that you are still talking about successive or sequential exposures, so any movement of the subject or camera would mean that the two exposures that make up one final frame don't line-up precisely, causing smear & lag.

I think there are ways around this. Certainly this is not perfect solution. The information would only be used in blown out areas anyway so I would think that any detail would be beneficial. Judder could be rendered out failrly easily I would think. A sort-of highlight interlacing?
Pure speculation on my part. Talking out of my behind.