DSLR-killer...

[Karl Gustav H.]

I think if you were looking for a serious "video" camera (I guess "motion" is the word now), you'd be thinking a lot differently.

Totally agree.

I guess some people (myself included) were expecting something closer to a 1Ds MkIII with a kick-ass 24fps video mode for around $10,000. As it stands its $12,000 + monitoring option by the look of it.

I'm in now way disappointed by the products announced today. It looks fantastic. One of the 2/3" Scarlets is on my shopping list - probably the interchangable mount unit, the prime set and hopefully a RED mini-zoom if such a thing exists.

Its just a case of people re-aligning whatn they had convinced themselves they were going to see with reality. Lots of people are still in that stnned silence/shellshocked phase. Anyhoo, I imagine there's one hell of a party at RED HQ right about now!

[Kyle Mallory]

Yeah, as much as I'm excited about the new stuff, my wife, who does the still photography isn't so much. I was hoping the DSMC would let her appreciate RED as much as I do... Sadly, at even $7k (which is amazing for video), I think she'll be sticking with the Canon and Nikon SLR's that also shoot video, at 1/3 the price.

I guess I'll continue to revel in my REDness all by myself.

[fruitsandvegetables]

wow. I was expecting full frame 35mm DSLR-killer under $3000 .Well, They did make a killer price that I can't afford.:shiftyph34r:

[Graeme Nattress]

And if the D90 and 5D2 video stood up to the kind of big screen (and little screen) scrutiny that RED One footage does, I might be tempted to agree with you. When people see the Canon and Nikon footage, they see the DOF and the glass, but the image itself is just not that good....

Graeme (with is obviously biassed hat on)

[Steve Gal]

Graeme,

How do you have time to post with all these announcements going on. You are I assume definitely a dedicated and very busy person. Amazing...

[Graeme Nattress]

I'm better at multi-tasking than multi-casking.

Graeme

[zalee]

With what I've seen so far, I am not surprise if somewhere, there might be a RED "competitor" lurking in the dark and secretly working on:

a 3K camera will be codename "Violet"
a 4K camera will be codename "Blue"
a 5K & beyond will be codename "History" ... *chuckle*

I still couldn't digest the new pictures and information. Too much too handle for now... (need my sleeping pills!)

Well done to the RED team and hope to see you guys in NAB 2009.

p/s I was at NAB 2007 and gave up on the long queue :(

[Alan Fletcher]

Looks like all of this is out of my price range.

The equivalent of my 4/3 gear (or APS-C) would be the Scarlet S35 at $7000 brain only.

Except for the Scarlet 5MP, Red seem to have gone the 'Canon' route of maximum megapixels, rather than the Nikon D3/D700 maximum ISO.

One thing I do NOT see is any kind of flash hot-shoe. But then, flash is anathema to movie folk. More than once I've been asked by movie guys to hold off on using flash during a take. If I can't use flash, then I need ISO 6400 or better.

They offer AF lenses -- but what's the auto-focus mechanism? Must be contrast?

I don't see prices on the new LCD/EVF .. the original Red EVF is $2950. What's the price/spec on a BombEVF?

And the Fixed-lens 2/3 Scarlet is a rather pricey replacement for my KM A2 !

[zalee]

2/3 fixed lens seems fine to me, but will there a "fixed" audio option onboard? Would be great for "shoot-and-run" documentaries ;)

[Minisergium]

What have I missed here? Jim called this a "DSLR killer" while the reality seems to be that is has absolutely nothing to offer to dSLR shooters in the way of increased performance or flexibility, while costing around 10 times more.

I agree completely with you. A great tool for cinema, not for photography. DSLR killer? Not at all. Besides the price (I'm talking about Scarlet FF35), the main point for me is that 5.2" + EVF height, and around 3 lbs only the "brain" is way BIGGER than I expected, and unuseful for someone who uses to move always with his camera, like I do (not to mention shooting unnoticed, which is virtually impossible). It has 5K, yes, but it's much more than I (and I think almost everyone) need. In addition, I'd love to have the slow motion possibility, but it's only 30 fps, unless I go for the EPIC which is... $35000!!. Something like 2K, 100fps and a smaller base would have been perfect to me... Sorry Jim, you've done a great job to make an amazing cinema cam, but you talked about DSLR killer and as a professional photographer I was waiting for a good replace to Canon and Nikon... And this is not.

[Minisergium]

I think Scarlet and Epic are fantastic movie cameras, and, of course, have the capability of shooting single frames. In no way are they DSLR killers for all the reasons Lee Jay mentioned above.

I think Red will announce another member of the DSMC family in a few months, and that one will be the true DSLR killer. There is always hope!
I hope too...

[Minisergium]

I think if you were looking for a serious "video" camera (I guess "motion" is the word now), you'd be thinking a lot differently.
Nobody doubts of Scarlet and Epic as serious motion cameras, but remember we are talking about "DSLR killers"

[Carl Larsen]

I think we have to look at the term dslr killer from a filmmaker's standpoint. All of these new options definitively KILL my need for an additional still photographer on my shoots - I no longer need another guy to come along to get me hi-res still with the same "look" as the video. Now every frame is a "DSLR shot" that I can send to an art department or use in a print publication.

I know the frame grabs will often have more motion blur (1/48th) than I'd like having a dedicated still photog on a job, but wow! Find a good frame and run with it.

If you need more than that, well, hire out a stills guy like you did before.

[Sarah C.]

I'm still leaning toward a Canon 5D Mark II... I want something lightweight that uses my 35mm lenses. I'm kinda sad that Scarlet was not the answer.. but then Mr. Jannard may be right in not trying to compete with Canon and Nikon on the "lower" level of DSLRs that "also" shoot video.

~Sarah

[Lee Jay]

And if the D90 and 5D2 video stood up to the kind of big screen (and little screen) scrutiny that RED One footage does, I might be tempted to agree with you. When people see the Canon and Nikon footage, they see the DOF and the glass, but the image itself is just not that good....

Graeme (with is obviously biassed hat on)

"DSLR killer" means stills, not video, as DSLRs are for shooting stills. The 5DII produces better video than any consumer camcorder or P&S with video mode, and considering that I took 22,000 stills and 18 minutes of video (640x480x30p) in the last year, that would be far more than sufficient. The stills I get from my 5D are plenty outstanding from an image quality point of view, even printed quite large.

Scarlet/EPIC are no more DSLR killers than an IMAX camera was a 35mm film SLR killer. From the point of view of a stills shooter, they are bulky, over-priced kludges lacking crucial features (like lens support, autofocus, and viewfinders) that serious stills-shooters require. I'm a bit shocked that RED thought any of these cameras would be remotely competitive in a dSLR space dominated by $700-$2000 cameras packed with features and lens systems the new REDs lack entirely. These are professional motion picture cameras that can also produce decent stills, just like the 5DII is a professional stills camera than can also produce decent video. One doesn't really compete with the other at all. No one is going to shoot a feature film or TV show or commercial with the 5DII, and no one is going to shoot sports or weddings or portraits with a RED.

[Alan Fletcher]

Another unanswered question is --- are Scarlet/Epic the planned DSLR killer(s)?

They are clearly movie cameras with (as yet unexplained) still modes.

Or is the DSLR-killer still in the design pipeline ... a Still camera with Movie mode?

[Lee Jay]

Another unanswered question is --- are Scarlet/Epic the planned DSLR killer(s)?

They are clearly movie cameras with (as yet unexplained) still modes.

Or is the DSLR-killer still in the design pipeline ... a Still camera with Movie mode?

I don't think so. A true dSLR killer with RED One quality video would be a Scarlet and Epic killer as well. Think of it as a Scarlet FF35 with grip, viewfinder, mount and battery integrated into a 2 pound ergonomic system for under $3000. Not going to happen from RED any time soon if ever. We're much more likely to get a dSLR from Canon, Nikon or Sony that meets all those specs and can deliver high quality video too. Heck, we're almost there now.

[Daniel Browning]

From the point of view of a stills shooter, they are bulky, over-priced kludges lacking crucial features (like lens support, autofocus, and viewfinders) that serious stills-shooters require.


The specs say that the FF35 cameras support Canon, Nikon, and the new RED FF35 lenses. And it supports autofocus for the RED FF35 lenses at least. Personally, I am very disappointed with the performance of optical viewfinders compared to RED's. They do not show the true depth of field (f/1.2 is shown as f/3.5 in the OVF) and aren't useful in low light. This makes it much harder to focus than an EVF.

If you need high quality stills *and* motion, RED is the only game in town. All the other guys compromise motion quality severely (understatement).

If you only need stills and junky video, like you said, then you can save money with the other guys.

[fruitsandvegetables]

and camera with fixed lens?I don't know which market they are targeting . point and shoot user?

[Lee Jay]

The specs say that the FF35 cameras support Canon, Nikon, and the new RED FF35 lenses. And it supports autofocus for the RED FF35 lenses at least. Personally, I am very disappointed with the performance of optical viewfinders compared to RED's. They do not show the true depth of field (f/1.2 is shown as f/3.5 in the OVF) and aren't useful in low light. This makes it much harder to focus than an EVF.

I haven't seen a red EVF (and from the looks of it, I never will) but the EVFs I've tried are slow, and worse by far in low-light than my OVFs. I've been shooting pictures of satellites in low-Earth-orbit through an f15 optical train. I have no difficulty focusing and tracking with an OVF on these dim objects, but with an EVF, all I get is noise - no hint of the object at all - through the same optical train.

Having a Canon or Nikon mount that doesn't autofocus *at least* as good as the Canon and Nikon bodies does, and also activates and supports IS and aperture control is less than useful. One of the largest and most useful advances in modern SLRs over my old manual film cameras is fast and accurate AI servo (predictive autofocus). It's a feature I wouldn't live without anymore, and it's on even the cheapest dSLRs that cost $700 with two lenses.

I have no problem with the video people liking these things (I know little about the pro video industry so I can't judge if these are good deals or not) but to call these devices DSLR-killers is just disingenuous as far as I can tell, as they don't even compete in the same space. No wedding shooter is going to go out and buy two FF35 or even S35 Scarlet systems for each shooter at a wedding. Is there even a TTL-compatible hot shoe available?

[Lee Jay]

By the way, it's not just the cost and lack of features, it's also the size and weight. How would you like to carry two fully-outfitted systems with "brains", grips, batteries, mounts, finders and lenses around your neck for 7 straight hours, with extra batteries, lenses and flashes in your vest the whole time?

[Mario Langone]

i guess I'm hoping that we will get some confirmation of whether or not Red will release a product specifically aimed at the DSLR market....before I jump ship and buy my next camera.

[Brent J. Craig]

i guess I'm hoping that we will get some confirmation of whether or not Red will release a product specifically aimed at the DSLR market....before I jump ship and buy my next camera.

I think that several of the 3 trillion combinations of the Epic/Scarlet system will be aimed at the DSLR market!

It might be in Red's best interest to offer a few ready-to-go packages with a kit lens for the less technical.

[Daniel Browning]

I haven't seen a red EVF (and from the looks of it, I never will) but the EVFs I've tried are slow, and worse by far in low-light than my OVFs. I've been shooting pictures of satellites in low-Earth-orbit through an f15 optical train. I have no difficulty focusing and tracking with an OVF on these dim objects, but with an EVF, all I get is noise - no hint of the object at all - through the same optical train.


Technology has moved beyond whatever you used. EVF allow for longer exposures and 200% magnification that make critical focus on static objects a snap. That's why live view on the 20Da was such a big deal for astrophotographers.

[Lee Jay]

Longer exposures are not an acceptable solution in most cases. In fact, I need shorter. The lag (latency) is already too much on EVFs unless you are shooting static subjects. Live view is nice for manual focus. Accurate, fast, predictive autofocus is nicer yet (and a minimum requirement for most dSLR shooters including me).

[Daniel Browning]

Longer exposures are not an acceptable solution in most cases. In fact, I need shorter. The lag (latency) is already too much on EVFs unless you are shooting static subjects. Live view is nice for manual focus.

Good point. In still mode there will be improvements as technology marches forward, but for motion it will be probably be limited by the desired frame rate (e.g. 24 FPS), unless it were to ramp up on every frame. :)


Accurate, fast, predictive autofocus is nicer yet (and a minimum requirement for most dSLR shooters including me).

Me too.

[Tim H.]

If you need high quality stills *and* motion, RED is the only game in town. All the other guys compromise motion quality severely (understatement).
.

So you have a photo shoot booked with GQ magazine and you are shooting several models on location with 3 to 4 strobes and you need to fire these strobes from the camera. How will you do this with your DSLR Killer? Does it have a sync output? Does it have a mirror? Does it support pocket wizards?

It's great that you will defend your Red to the death but why not try to see the reality of the situation? This is not a DSLR killer on any level. The new Scarlet and Epic models might make for great cinematic "movie" cameras but lets not try and make them something they are not. Lets be honest that Jim should never have said "DSLR Killer" and doesn't it kinda make you doubt Red a little when they over reach with marketing words like that? I'm all for standing behind a company like Red but I don't want to back hype.

So am I going to get a Canon 5D MK2 to shoot my next cinematic epic? Well guess it depends on the budget but obviously Peter Jackson isn't. Is Jill Greenberg (http://www.manipulator.com/) going to buy an Epic or Scarlet to shoot her next photo shoot? NO.

To sit here and say that these cameras are better than any DSLR out there is just like us saying Canon and Nikon DSLR's shoot better high rez video than the Epic or Scarlet.

Jim - I think you should retract/modify that statement, it's generating way more bad press than good press.

[Jarred Land]

FullRez.. you are jumping to alot of conclusions.....

I would recommend in the future that you wait to see how big the dog is before you blindly kick it....

[Michael Schrengohst]

FullRez.. you are jumping to alot of conclusions.....

I would recommend in the future that you wait to see how big the dog is before you blindly kick it....

Hmmmmm, interesting????

[Lee Jay]

FullRez.. you are jumping to alot of conclusions.....

I would recommend in the future that you wait to see how big the dog is before you blindly kick it....

Is one of these the DSMC or not? Jim pretty much said the DSMC would be announced today in the DSMC forum, so it seems safe to assume that he meant one of the cameras announced today. If it hasn't been announced, then say so.

EDIT: here's the post I mentioned:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=309508#post309508

[Steve Gal]

aren't they all dsmc's?

[Jason Ing]

So you have a photo shoot booked with GQ magazine and you are shooting several models on location with 3 to 4 strobes and you need to fire these strobes from the camera. How will you do this with your DSLR Killer? Does it have a sync output? Does it have a mirror? Does it support pocket wizards?


LOL! That's your measly list that disqualifies it from being a DSLR killer and you want Jim to recant? LOL.

Let's see... Jim, with a team of engineers, programmers, and foot soldiers... and don't forget his trusty commando Jarred... advances sensor technology, creates Redcode, improves it in mere months, envisions, designs, and constructs a now proven state-of-the-art high-end digital cinema camera in mere years...

... and what the fuck?!! They can't figure out STROBE technology? And to make it more complicated... FOUR of them? And In-Sync too?! (not the band, Full-Rez)

Those talent-less, stupid losers at Red... they'll never figure out and make that happen.

I mean... come on... all that electronics and syncing and lights and code and technology and... shit... forget about it.

The achilles heel.... revealed.

Imagine that.

Jim & Red company taken down...

... by 4 bulbs and a wire.

What a shame.

Rest In Peace, you guys.

We all loved you while it lasted.

:waaa:

[Fran Kuhn]

I think we have to look at the term dslr killer from a filmmaker's standpoint. All of these new options definitively KILL my need for an additional still photographer on my shoots - I no longer need another guy to come along to get me hi-res still with the same "look" as the video. Now every frame is a "DSLR shot" that I can send to an art department or use in a print publication.

I know the frame grabs will often have more motion blur (1/48th) than I'd like having a dedicated still photog on a job, but wow! Find a good frame and run with it.

If you need more than that, well, hire out a stills guy like you did before.


Hi Carl,

The ability to grab still frames from motion is nothing new, you can do it with a 60 year-old Eyemo if you'd like.

Clients on my film shoots have tried many times to take a frame shot on an Arri 435 and use it for print. Most of the time it doesn't work, ask any creative at a big agency.

Dedicated still cameras (and photographers) exist for good reason.

-Fran

[Jason Ing]

Some people think they can do both at the same time.

Just change the shutter speed.

One speed for motion cinema.

Another speed for continuous shooting still photography.

[Jason Ing]

Just curious... my foreign language skills sucks...

... does "Rez" mean like... "of shit" in German or French or something?

:)

[Tim H.]

LOL! That's your measly list that disqualifies it from being a DSLR killer and you want Jim to recant? LOL.

Let's see... Jim, with a team of engineers, programmers, and foot soldiers... and don't forget his trusty commando Jarred... advances sensor technology, creates Redcode, improves it in mere months, envisions, designs, and constructs a now proven state-of-the-art high-end digital cinema camera in mere years...

... and what the fuck?!! They can't figure out STROBE technology? And to make it more complicated... FOUR of them? And In-Sync too?! (not the band, Full-Rez)

Those talent-less, stupid losers at Red... they'll never figure out and make that happen.

I mean... come on... all that electronics and syncing and lights and code and technology and... shit... forget about it.

The achilles heel.... revealed.

Imagine that.

Jim & Red company taken down...

... by 4 bulbs and a wire.

What a shame.

Rest In Peace, you guys.

We all loved you while it lasted.

:waaa:

Ok Fanboy!!! Go Get Em' Tiger!

Seriously? You think this comes down to 4 bulbs and a wire? You probably have no idea what a DSLR is used for in the REAL world and based on the information provided today have any clue how the new Red Cameras would apply to it. Are you that insecure or willing to defend anything regardless of its merit simply because who are in love with it?

How does blindly bowing down to Red as a company help you? Is Jim going to give you a free camera if you are nice enough and follow him everywhere? Maybe you should try questioning them as a company so that you can help them to improve their product and push them to deliver more to us the consumer. It's amazing how people in these forums turn so negative and personal when you have a different opinion of something.

I will bet you anything you want dude that these cameras as they were announced today will not KILL the big DSLR makers.

[Tim H.]

FullRez.. you are jumping to alot of conclusions.....

I would recommend in the future that you wait to see how big the dog is before you blindly kick it....

Jarred - Much respect man. I've followed you since the DVX days and I mean no harm.

I'm simply saying that based on the info released today this is not a DSLR killer and there are plenty of rumblings around the net about how much of an over statement that was. So I'm just pointing it out.

Never said it can't/won't change but I'd hate to see a simple "Killer" comment cast a negative cloud over Red.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm wondering who is the insecure one here... FullRez, you're over reacting I think. We don't even have all the specs of these new cameras yet. As Jarred says, you're jumping to a lot of conclusions and you seem to be getting quite agitated over this.

Additionally, we have to look at the "killer" in the context of these new cameras. Nikon, Canon and others are pushing the DSLR market into the video market and they are targeting professionals with this. In that respect, these newly announce offerings are indeed DSLR "killers" if we look at the cameras competing across their entire feature sets.

But I agree with you, that if I just want to shoot stills, I'd go buy a 5D2 or a D3/ D700.

[Jason Ing]

...and based on the information provided today...

You said it yourself.

You're basing everything on the information provided today.

Yup, no further specs, designs, improvements, etc. etc. will be coming because Red provided all the information and I didn't just read that Jim will be working on some charts over the next few days. They all just stopped working.

They've all gone to Fiji.

Red never improves upon anything... those lazy bastards.

[Fran Kuhn]

Some people think they can do both at the same time.

Just change the shutter speed.

One speed for motion cinema.

Another speed for continuous shooting still photography.

Hi Jason,

You're right. It's just that many people here think they'll be able to shoot for both stills and motion at the same time. Sure, it can sometimes be done, but it's not something I'd like to rely on for any important shoot.

My first post on REDuser was a reply to some guy here who was rejoicing at the thought of selling his Arriflex SR3 and Nikon and having one do-it-all camera, that from now on everything--stills and motion--could be shot in one take. And a wedding photographer who thought he'd be able to ditch his partner with the video camera because he'd simply pull all of the stills from his Scarlet video.

To me this illustrates the level of misunderstanding about some very basic aspects of photography and cinematography by many of the posters on this board. Not to mention misunderstanding the business in general.

-Fran

http://www.frankuhn.com

[Jason Ing]

You're right. There's a diverse group here. But what's great is the sharing and cross-over of knowledge, I think. :)

Nice shots on your site, by the way.

[Tim H.]

Fran, you are exactly right.

If you go over to the Canon forums you will see lots of photographers who have great skill shooting stills but no idea about how all this video stuff works. They are making assumptions that are just not realistic.

If you are shooting a wedding you can't jump back and forth because the bride and groom are going to want stills AND video of that special moment, not one of the other. You'll just end up missing the "moment".

My main point which I obviously did a horrible job of describing was that Epic and Scarlet seem like they will be major contenders in the cinema world and no doubt light a fire under the other big boys. That is good for us all. I'm just not sure Red should get distracted with trying to make it a DSLR. To actually describe or associate these new wonders from Red with the term "DSLR" actually cheapens them in my opinion. Let Canon and Nikon shoot it out for the still market.

There is no doubt that Canon putting out 30fps 1080P from a FF sensor was yellow flag to Red as a company. It may not be the only reason for the new direction but it was surely part of it. This says something.

To me S35 and FF35 is what really sets these apart from EVERYTHING and I hope Red concentrates on that and can get that as affordable as possible. I'll buy one for cinema and use my 5D for shooting stills.

No personal attacks needed :)

[Fran Kuhn]

You're right. There's a diverse group here. But what's great is the sharing and cross-over of knowledge, I think. :)

Nice shots on your site, by the way.

Thanks, Jason. BTW I've noticed the REDuser site getting better lately, more guys like David Mullen, Mitch Gross, Stephen Williams, the great guys at Duclos--some real pros stopping in more and more.

I've been lurking here since they first opened the place, but, to be honest, I was hesitant to post for a while with all the boot licking, back slapping and high-five-ing. Every time I stuck my head in here it was sort of like that creepy feeling you get walking into Abercrombie & Fitch to buy a pair of jeans, know what I mean?

A lot better these days! I'm trying to absorb all of the good info--I still have a lot to learn, that's for sure.

-Fran

http://www.frankuhn.com

[Jason Ing]

Cool. :)

But what if it could shoot a great still shot already? Maybe add a little bit more technology and then all that's needed is the right "body"?

Then design it so that you can just pop on the traditional still handles with a shutter button.

I'm curious how this "body" will feel if you want to do just traditional SLR work and not video. It sort of looked "bulky" in the pictures. But I'm reserving judgment for NAB 2009! A mock up will be there, right? :)

[Jason Ing]

And, of course, there's the price point vs features between the SLRs and Scarlett. That should be interesting. Some threads are already hashing on this one.

[FMG battery]

Hi Jason,

You're right. It's just that many people here think they'll be able to shoot for both stills and motion at the same time. Sure, it can sometimes be done, but it's not something I'd like to rely on for any important shoot.

My first post on REDuser was a reply to some guy here who was rejoicing at the thought of selling his Arriflex SR3 and Nikon and having one do-it-all camera, that from now on everything--stills and motion--could be shot in one take. And a wedding photographer who thought he'd be able to ditch his partner with the video camera because he'd simply pull all of the stills from his Scarlet video.

To me this illustrates the level of misunderstanding about some very basic aspects of photography and cinematography by many of the posters on this board. Not to mention misunderstanding the business in general.

-Fran

http://www.frankuhn.commaybe you are interested to teach your very basic aspects of photography and cinematography to many others such as those guys from wedding photography or any other else?.. :whistling:

[Josh Ray]

Quick, opinionated breakdown of the best cameras for paid photo gigs:

Wildlife: Red FF35 (much higher frame rates than Nikon or Canon)
Stationary sports (monopod, one location, etc): Red FF35 (ditto)
Sports (carrying multiple cameras): Nikon D3 or Canon 1D (fast fps, lower weight, great AF)
Standard Landscape: Canon 1Ds (huge megapixels for the price)
Premium Landscape: Red 617 (wide format, max mp)
Paparazzi/event/wedding: Nikon D3/D700 (clean high iso, low weight, flash hotshoe, great AF)
Standard Studio/portrait: Canon 1Ds (max mp for the price)
Premium Studio/portrait: Red 645 (high mp, fastest medium format, modular, dof)
Flexible location flash: Nikon D3 (amazing integrated wireless flash system)

-This assumes the Red brain/grip will have excellent AF control with Nikon/Canon/Red lenses.

Canon and Nikon are, I think, still the top choices for the majority of event and sports photogs who require familiar ergonomic bodies, big 3" screens, sensor cleaning, hotshoes and lighter weight. It's the medium format guys (Hassy, Mamiya, Phase One, etc.) who should be very, very worried.

[Fran Kuhn]

Fran, you are exactly right.


. . .My main point which I obviously did a horrible job of describing was that Epic and Scarlet seem like they will be major contenders in the cinema world and no doubt light a fire under the other big boys. That is good for us all. I'm just not sure Red should get distracted with trying to make it a DSLR. To actually describe or associate these new wonders from Red with the term "DSLR" actually cheapens them in my opinion. Let Canon and Nikon shoot it out for the still market.



Hi FullRez,

I have to admit I was a little let down when I saw what was announced here today, at least in regard to the DSLR killer. (The other stuff was really pretty exciting.)

I did a little impromptu email survey of some pro sports photographer friends this morning, emailed them the link to the new systems. To be honest, they were not remotely interested. Just too expensive and they are worried about customer support if and when the company starts building many more thousands of units. And then, as any user of anything digital will tell you, this only means something bigger, better and cheaper will be coming from Canon or Nikon sometime soon.

BTW if this Scarlet has an auto focus that can accurately track a motorcycle moving at 70mph towards the camera, I might be in! (Are you listening Canon--1D MKIII-ahem!):sarcasm:

Anyway, nice to meet you FullRez.

-Fran

http://www.frankuhn.com

[Fran Kuhn]

maybe you are interested to teach your very basic aspects of photography and cinematography to many others such as those guys from wedding photography or any other else?.. :whistling:

Hi FMG,

Sure thing. Why don't we start by analyzing your best shot. Post it here and I'll see what we can do to make it better!:biggrin:

All The Best,

-Fran

http://www.frankuhn.com

[FMG battery]

Hi FMG,

Sure thing. Why don't we start by analyzing your best shot. Post it here and I'll see what we can do to make it better!:biggrin:

All The Best,

-Fran

http://www.frankuhn.comhow much do you pay?.. i'm used to be paid for my reel..

[Roberto B]

guys like David Mullen, Mitch Gross, Stephen Williamshey stephen, you were mentioned! :sorcerer:

:poster_stupid:

[Cory Mitchell]

If there's one thing that I've learned from this company, and Jim himself, is that when he says something, it's better to trust them/him, instead of jump to the worst possible scenario conclusions.

While Red mostly has a community here of filmmakers (vs still photographers), Red being a digital cinema camera, since Jim announced the DSLR-Killer I've seen more still photographers pop up. Everyone has to remember that Jim is a photographer. He knows what's needed to make a photo. He knows photography (and all the technical stuff behind it).

Obviously, there is a large price difference between the Red's cameras and still cameras. That seems to be the real concern, from everything that we know. But Red knew the prices of the Canon's and Nikon's (Jim probably owns some of them), so they knew this wasn't an apples to apples comparison. They aren't selling still cameras with motion capability (like canon and nikon), they are making digital cinema cameras with still capability. Because of that, what I assume was meant was that if you have one of these cameras you wouldn't need a DSLR, not that you won't need to buy a DSLR if you don't have anything. In that sense it will be a huge relief to only carry around one camera instead of two (one for motion (good, professional motion) and one for stills), if someone's role required both.

So, I'd just sit back and trust Jim and Company that they know what they're talking about. Trust? Yeah, trust.

If you're sincerely disappointed, those other still cameras (with some motion capabilities) still exist. For now. :biggrin:

[ygo]

This is great Jim, that you have finally decided to go with FF35 and 645. I'm in for the EPIC FF35 and 645. When are they available for order?

[fruitsandvegetables]

• 1080p resolution
• 24p framerate
• Full size 35 sensor
• Uses affordable SLR lenses
• RAW recording/workflow
• <$4000

[Eddy Robinson]

how much do you pay?.. i'm used to be paid for my reel..

You'll be paid...with advice. It's not like you're handing off print rights.

[Minisergium]

Do Scarlet and Epic shoot UNCOMPRESSED RAW still images? What about having the option of shooting uncompressed or lossless RAW motion? SSDs are developing fast and soon we'll have 1,6Tb SSDs with transfer rates about 300MB/s, which should be enough to shoot at least some minutes of 2k uncompressed footage (correct me if I'm wrong)

[androbot2084]

I think the Scarlet and the Epic are indeed DSLR killers. This is because I am assuming that the Red cameras will come with a super burst mode that can record 100 pictures in a second and will start recording pictures before the shutter is fully depressed. This means you always get the perfect shot which is impossible with a conventional DSLR which only takes 3 photos a second. With the super burst mode the shutter speed is optimized for still photography only so you do not get the motion blurring as you do with a typical frame grab off of movie footage.

[Yannick Hagman]

I think the Scarlet and the Epic are indeed DSLR killers. This is because I am assuming that the Red cameras will come with a super burst mode that can record 100 pictures in a second and will start recording pictures before the shutter is fully depressed. This means you always get the perfect shot which is impossible with a conventional DSLR which only takes 3 photos a second. With the super burst mode the shutter speed is optimized for still photography only so you do not get the motion blurring as you do with a typical frame grab off of movie footage.

First off: Still photography isn't about that (it could be nice for sports though)
Secondly: How much "pleasure" and time will it need to select the best shot?

[Yannick Hagman]

Do Scarlet and Epic shoot UNCOMPRESSED RAW still images?

No. 10 to 1.

[Peter Majtan]

No. 10 to 1.

We don't know that (yet)... :innocent:
Lossless RAW is fine with me though... :w00t:

[David Swan]

I don't think any scarlet s a DSLR killer....yet.
To do this a camera would have to be priced within shouting distance of the 5D / D700 / A900, rather than in excess of the 1Ds / D3.
The elements are all, there, interchangeable mounts, 24Mp FF35, 13+ stops DR, but $12000 body only, without VF or grips? No.
However, strip out the expesive cine bits, get volumes up and a price of say$4000 or less and I think then Canon or Nikon should be worried.
As things stand only Haselblad and Phase one shoud worry, and that's over the 645 Epic
David

[pango]

No. 10 to 1.

As of today ... these cameras don't even exist yet. When they come, a firmware change may allow quite different things.

[Mario Langone]

I don't think any scarlet s a DSLR killer....yet.
To do this a camera would have to be priced within shouting distance of the 5D / D700 / A900, rather than in excess of the 1Ds / D3.
The elements are all, there, interchangeable mounts, 24Mp FF35, 13+ stops DR, but $12000 body only, without VF or grips? No.
However, strip out the expesive cine bits, get volumes up and a price of say$4000 or less and I think then Canon or Nikon should be worried.
As things stand only Haselblad and Phase one shoud worry, and that's over the 645 Epic
David

My thoughts exactly...

[oedipus]

There is some way to go before SCARLET could be touted as a DSLR killer. Echoing David Swan I think that as announced, the acronyms DSLR and DSMC result in an hybrid that, whilst satisfying certain sectors fall short in others. Modularity should allow for a tool focused (sorry!) on still work that, with the changing of elements, makes it ideal for moving image acquisition. I think the principle is spot on and the ambition cannot be faulted but currently the recently announced models will only kill the existing market if they redefine it and that's a lot of inertia to push against.

[Patrick Grossien]

I don't think any scarlet s a DSLR killer....yet.
To do this a camera would have to be priced within shouting distance of the 5D / D700 / A900, rather than in excess of the 1Ds / D3.
The elements are all, there, interchangeable mounts, 24Mp FF35, 13+ stops DR, but $12000 body only, without VF or grips? No.
However, strip out the expensive cine bits, get volumes up and a price of say$4000 or less and I think then Canon or Nikon should be worried.
As things stand only Haselblad and Phase one shoud worry, and that's over the 645 Epic
David

I agree... at least for the most part...

I was looking forward to not having to buy a new DSLR. I could perfectly live with 2/3" for stills when the rest is RED power. (the canon 30D produces nice pictures already with a small sized chip. so why should it be different for RED) but 5mp? that makes it a cool feature for a motion camera, but definitely does not make it a DSLR killer for me.

But I differ when it comes to the model. I think it starts becoming interesting with the S35 already. With 13.8MP and all the rest of the RED goodness that brain would be my first choice. (The Canon 5D had 12MP) Ok, the Canon 5D Mark II is 2.500 only but the 1D is about 7.000 already... so I guess there's not much to complain pricewise... The S35 will be a true DSLR killer. And killers have never been cheap either. ;)

The only "problem" is that -understandably- everyone (including consumers and prosumers) wants a part of RED. And if you compare the prices, the lower segment is not filled with a DSLR killer, but with the best Motion Camera you can possibly buy in that segment.

If I could have a 2/3" Scarlet with a nikon/canon mount and 10-12MP... I'd kill any DSLR for it! hehe ...Jim? ;)

sigh!

[Joseph Ward]

The only DSLR Killer is me... Mwaahaha! Really, just hope the new cams are as rock solid as possible. Maybe someone in the military, or high impact work can test these first :gun: I want some anti shock, water proof, Jim Jannard proof, camera as much as possible.

And YES this will be a DSLR Killer for me! :pirate:

[Clayton Talmon]

I agree. The Scarlet S35 is the way to go for most still work.

Not sure it will kill the others for pure still work but for Cinemaphotographers there's nothing that comes close. IMHO.

[emilyy]

With its unique design, the DC0012 (http://photo.sina.com.cn/photo/48ab4fe9g5c1b09945540)has won many admirers. Great looking
Digital Camera (http://photo.sina.com.cn/photo/48ab4fe9g5c1b09945540)with a 5.0 Mega Pixel CMOS Sensor, 3 function modes (Digital Camera and PC Camera), and a handy dual power feature letting you power the camera with the included rechargeable Li-ion battery or 3x AAA Batteries for maximum convenience when on the road. The more important is its attractive price.

[Jannard]

No. 10 to 1.

Where did you hear this? Not correct.

Jim

[David Swan]

The reason I was looking at the FF35 is because that is where the big-boys are going. Canon, Nikon and Sony, all have new FF cameras, and when Amateur Photographer tested the new Sony A900, they found 11 stops D/R, similar to the s35 Mysterium X.
So I was looking at the confiuration that offered more all round, and that was the FF35 Mysterium Monstro with 24 Mp and 13+ stops D/R.
But being realistic about pricing we're looking at £12000 Brain only, likely £15000 usable without lens. You could buy a 1Ds III (£4500) plus nearly all the L glass you could need for that.
Dave

[Peter Mosiman]

The reason I was looking at the FF35 is because that is where the big-boys are going. Canon, Nikon and Sony, all have new FF cameras, and when Amateur Photographer tested the new Sony A900, they found 11 stops D/R, similar to the s35 Mysterium X.
So I was looking at the confiuration that offered more all round, and that was the FF35 Mysterium Monstro with 24 Mp and 13+ stops D/R.
But being realistic about pricing we're looking at £12000 Brain only, likely £15000 usable without lens. You could buy a 1Ds III (£4500) plus nearly all the L glass you could need for that.
Dave

That is a completely true statement. HOWEVER, those cameras do not allow you to shoot footage beyond anything else out there in the same "market" (I put quotes because, really, is there a market SCARLET belongs to? I think it's made its OWN market). People keep asking why so expensive for a FF35 "DSLR" and they do not understand that it will shoot totally kickass video. If you are just a photographer, then stick to Canon/Nikon as they have tons of great cameras. But if your looking for something along the lines of a 5d MarkII, but something FAR better (when it comes to video mode as they both have comparable Still modes), then look no further...Scarlet FF35 is your baby.
:w00t:

[David Swan]

Without in any way doubting the brilliance of Scarlet, or the concept, we are looking at cine-pricing here.
A 5DII is going to be £2300 for a body that you can stick your lens on, put a CF card in and go out shooting.
Allowing for exchange rate, import duty and distributer's mark up, I seriously doubt a working FF35 Scarlet body (Brain, V/F, Grip and CF moule) will come in under the £15000 I suggested above. That is a totaly different market.
In order to seriously discomode the "big-boys" a DSLR killer needs to be in the region of £2500 or so to get the serious enthusiast as well as the pro and cine market.
Red shook up the cine markets by giving better-for-cheeper, but that is in the cine world with cine budgets and production volumes. Can Red do this in the DSLR world where budgets are that much less and volumes are much higher?
I don't know, but hope so.
Cheers,
David

[Jimmy Gitonga]

Some time before the "brains and bits" were announced, a few people were "uuh"ing and "aaah"ing all over the 5DMkII, saying things like "I'll buy a Scarlet for motion pictures and 5DMkII for still pictures". It does HD at 30p. Wow.

Now we have a surety that any RED FF35 owner will not need to buy a DSLR. This is not the other way round. Which means you'll be able to put your DSLR money into "bits".

[Yannick Hagman]

when it comes to video mode as they both have comparable Still modes

I'm not so sure what makes you think that. It's a render so far after all.

[Lee Jay]

Now we have a surety that any RED FF35 owner will not need to buy a DSLR. This is not the other way round.

Why isn't it the other way around? I'm pretty happy with the 640x480 video that comes from my wife's compact digital camera. I'd be absolutely thrilled with the 1080p that comes from the 5DII - possibly even more than the video that comes from a Red 35FF because its already finished, compressed and ready to go instead of occupying gig after gig in Redcode I'd probably never get around to dealing with. There are probably lots of still photographers out there like me that would only shoot a few minutes of video (or "motion") a year and really don't care much at all about the quality compared to the quality of our stills.

[Jannard]

Why isn't it the other way around? I'm pretty happy with the 640x480 video that comes from my wife's compact digital camera. I'd be absolutely thrilled with the 1080p that comes from the 5DII - possibly even more than the video that comes from a Red 35FF because its already finished, compressed and ready to go instead of occupying gig after gig in Redcode I'd probably never get around to dealing with. There are probably lots of still photographers out there like me that would only shoot a few minutes of video (or "motion") a year and really don't care much at all about the quality compared to the quality of our stills.

What are you waiting for? Sounds perfect for you.

Jim

[John Caballero]

I'm not so sure what makes you think that. It's a render so far after all.

That's right. Like any new product we will have to wait and compare in real life. Renders don't take stills or video.

[Lee Jay]

What are you waiting for? Sounds perfect for you.

Jim

It's not compelling enough over my 5D for the $1000 or so it would cost to upgrade. If someone comes out with several good ways to produce better still images than I can with my dSLRs now (a *real* dSLR killer), then I'd be interested, video or no video. I'd prefer video, I'd prefer it to be decent, and I'd prefer 720/60p over 1080/30p. I've offered some of these ways on this forum and on other forums, but no manufacturer has thus far come to market with anything particularly interesting, including Canon, Nikon or RED. I came to this forum because of the hope that RED would be doing some of that based on the "dSLR killer" claim.

[Jannard]

It's not compelling enough over my 5D for the $1000 or so it would cost to upgrade. If someone comes out with several good ways to produce better still images than I can with my dSLRs now (a *real* dSLR killer), then I'd be interested, video or no video. I'd prefer video, I'd prefer it to be decent, and I'd prefer 720/60p over 1080/30p. I've offered some of these ways on this forum and on other forums, but no manufacturer has thus far come to market with anything particularly interesting, including Canon, Nikon or RED. I came to this forum because of the hope that RED would be doing some of that based on the "dSLR killer" claim.

Now that you have decided that we haven't (I believe you are in the minority on this one) why stay and complain? Just curious... I have butted heads with you quite a few times on other threads. Happy to have you here, but the productivity seems low. If we offered a 5D-like camera that shot motion like our EPIC at $2K, then you would be happy? RED can't do it and Canon can't do it. So it seems that if you really would be happy with the motion characteristics of a 5D the solution is pretty easy and solved for you already. I just wonder why you stay to complain about something that isn't going to happen. I don't mean to be disrespectful here. I can just see that REDs future is different than the one you have in mind.

My best,

Jim

[Peter McCully]

The reason I was looking at the FF35 is because that is where the big-boys are going. Canon, Nikon and Sony, all have new FF cameras, and when Amateur Photographer tested the new Sony A900, they found 11 stops D/R, similar to the s35 Mysterium X.
So I was looking at the confiuration that offered more all round, and that was the FF35 Mysterium Monstro with 24 Mp and 13+ stops D/R.
But being realistic about pricing we're looking at £12000 Brain only, likely £15000 usable without lens. You could buy a 1Ds III (£4500) plus nearly all the L glass you could need for that.
Dave

Sorry, not keeping up with you. What Canon, Nikon and Sony movie cameras are FF? - That's FF stills size not FF 35mm movie size.

[Richardvclark]

He is talking about still cameras.

[Todd M.]

Why isn't it the other way around? I'm pretty happy with the 640x480 video that comes from my wife's compact digital camera. I'd be absolutely thrilled with the 1080p that comes from the 5DII - possibly even more than the video that comes from a Red 35FF because its already finished, compressed and ready to go instead of occupying gig after gig in Redcode I'd probably never get around to dealing with. There are probably lots of still photographers out there like me that would only shoot a few minutes of video (or "motion") a year and really don't care much at all about the quality compared to the quality of our stills.

Lee if you really don't care about motion quality, then I think it's pretty obvious that a RED camera is not for you.

[Jannard]

For some reason there seems to be people here that think a "DSLR killer" means beating a DSLR only at stills. That is not the case. A "DSLR-killer" means offering an equal to stills quality while offering a superior motion capture capability at the same time... for a price.

Jim

[David Swan]

Ok, fair enough, I guess I was being un-realistic in hoping for a do-it-all cam that I could afford (Not being a cine pro).
Granted the FF35 Scarlet / Epic are do-it-all cams, just not at my price point.
I'll hold on to my 5D for stills, and look at one of the 2/3" Scarlets, which should be plenty for my (Admitedly modest) cine needs.
Cheers,
David

[Simon Dean]

You know, I think this is a really important point. For those shooting with a 5D (Or equivalent) and doing no video work, RED is not providing a cheaper better replacement. For those who want an awesome video camera at a great price then RED is it. The grey area is for those who want to mix stills and video - for those doing mostly video and want excellent stills then question is answered. The people doing mostly stills need to question whether RED is for them - there are a lot of people it will suit really well (Sports, those moving into video/film), but a good number it just won't.

For me it means I'll probably stretch to a slighter better video camera than normal, because it means I can also do stills and keep all the same accessories and lenses - thus saving on the stills stuff. And the workflow will be similar too!

[Stephen Williams]

For some reason there seems to be people here that think a "DSLR killer" means beating a DSLR only at stills. That is not the case. A "DSLR-killer" means offering an equal to stills quality while offering a superior motion capture capability at the same time... for a price.

Jim

Hi Jim,

If you can beat the high ISO performance of stills camera such as the D300/D700 I will be impressed.

Best,

Stephen

[Lee Jay]

For some reason there seems to be people here that think a "DSLR killer" means beating a DSLR only at stills. That is not the case. A "DSLR-killer" means offering an equal to stills quality while offering a superior motion capture capability at the same time... for a price.

Jim

See, I thought "dSLR killer" meant a device that would "kill the dSLR" meaning rendering it absent from the market, replaced by the new device which has (arguably) superior performance and features in all areas. The DVD is a VHS killer. The CD is an LP killer. The MP3 is a cassette killer. The jet engine is a piston engine killer for commercial aircraft.

What you've announced is a "killer motion camera system", not a "dSLR killer".

[Yannick Hagman]

Where did you hear this? Not correct.

Jim

True. I heard that number about current Redcode RAW.

[Jannard]

See, I thought "dSLR killer" meant a device that would "kill the dSLR" meaning rendering it absent from the market, replaced by the new device which has (arguably) superior performance and features in all areas. The DVD is a VHS killer. The CD is an LP killer. The MP3 is a cassette killer. The jet engine is a piston engine killer for commercial aircraft.

What you've announced is a "killer motion camera system", not a "dSLR killer".

Since I explained to you early on exactly what it meant, and you seem to ignore the explanation... insisting on your definition, I'll continue to disagree strongly with you. All of your examples show doing the same thing only better. We are doing the same thing (shoot stills) equally as well, and something a DSLR cannot do (shoot real motion fit for real projects). Your examples do not make good analogies.

Rather than continue to talk past each other, why don't we take this offline?

Jim

[Yannick Hagman]

I think the most important aspect in making a killing is the pricepoint. The listed products clock in at either the same pricepoint or under it by providing something better or easier to use.

It's easier to find a killer in Napoli than in New York after all. :)

[Richardvclark]

Rather than continue to talk past each other, why don't we take this offline?

Jim

LOL...The man drives a truck that looks like a tank. If I was going to talk trash to him via the internet I would make damn sure that a. I was at my friends house (so he would come to his house and not mine :tongue:) and b. That I was 110% sure I was correct.

[TallGuy]

See, I thought "dSLR killer" meant a device that would "kill the dSLR" meaning rendering it absent from the market, replaced by the new device which has (arguably) superior performance and features in all areas. The DVD is a VHS killer. The CD is an LP killer. The MP3 is a cassette killer. The jet engine is a piston engine killer for commercial aircraft.

Me too. And Jim even said "It marks the end of DSLRs" and personally challenged the claim of a guy who said "Canon and Sony and Nikon have that market cornered. Nobody is going to dislodge them." I don't see how this kills the DSLR market, marks the end of DSLRs or dislodges Canon, Sony and Nikon from their position selling DSLRs. It doesn't seem to do any of those things. It's in a different market from DSLRs and appeals to a different user.


What you've announced is a "killer motion camera system", not a "dSLR killer".

I completely agree and I still want one even though it's out of my pricerange for the sensor size I want.

[Jannard]

Me too. And Jim even said "It marks the end of DSLRs" and personally challenged the claim of a guy who said "Canon and Sony and Nikon have that market cornered. Nobody is going to dislodge them." I don't see how this kills the DSLR market, marks the end of DSLRs or dislodges Canon, Sony and Nikon from their position selling DSLRs. It doesn't seem to do any of those things. It's in a different market from DSLRs and appeals to a different user.



I completely agree and I still want one even though it's out of my pricerange for the sensor size I want.

Tall and LeeJay...

Canon, Nikon and Sony are also marking the end of the DSLR as we "knew it"... it appears. The whole point, which seems to keep being missed, is that the end of the DSLR (still only camera) is near. Our DSLR-killer is a concept of stills and motion from the same professional camera... now shared by others. Given that definition, RED has a clear lead (at least with specs) over the others given a true pro motion capture. Price was not listed as criteria. Performance is. Consumers are most worried about price. Professionals are most concerned about performance.

If you both want to change the definition and then talk about your point of view relative to that... go right ahead. But please don't quote my comments in the context of your definition and not mine. You are starting to wear me out.

Jim

[Jan Balster]

I really don't think that the recently announced Scarlet and Epic lineups will kill the DSLR but this new way of telling stories with both stills and motion will. The recent piece of kids playing video games on the NY Times website (http://gizmodo.com/5096852/video-game-o-faces-captured-with-red-camera) is a very exciting use of both means of image capture. Many journalists and fashion photographers are jumping up and down at the prospect of being able to shoot both at the same time. I think we really have to come at this a different way. We shouldn't try to fit the DSMC system into our old way of thinking. An approach where stills and motion are mutually exclusive. If we keep trying to make it fit into our concept of what a stills or motion camera is, we'll never get anywhere, because it is neither one of them.

If I look at the Scarlet FF35 as a stills-ONLY camera it would not be competitive with todays' DSLRs. But what if I like shooting both? I can buy a Canon 1Ds MK III ($7,000) with 22 MP for my stills work and a Red One ($18,000+) for my motion projects. OR I can get some of both by buying a Scarlet FF35 for $7,000 plus a few accessories. I know the form factor of the DSMC system isn't for everyone but nobody is forcing us to get a RED!

It's an exciting time that we live in. This is just the beginning of a new art form which isn't stills or motion.

That's just my 2¢

- Jan

[rico]

yes a exciting time but we need it in 3d not in 2d.

i hope that red will take care about it as 3d is the future and may red will take care
about some new ideas that i post already in the 3d forum.

btw i just order for my 3d rick(45° half half mirror) 2 new canon 5d mk2.
i have the old 5d and its may a stepp up and i can still use my 3d rick.

it will be a nice compare as i also have the sony ex1 to see how good the canon
5d mk2 will be against the sony ex1.

i hope i can upgrade to the epic or scarlet asap but i hope if there is no
3d system that have only 1 chip there will be no problem to use 2 red cameras
in a 3d system without having sync problems.
the guy that produce my 3d rick have some sync problems with 2 red one in a 3d set up.

rico

[Todd M.]

yes a exciting time but we need it in 3d not in 2d.


I think you might have missed this Rico...

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/237540/Images/3D.jpg

[Richard Goodwin]

The whole notion of the DSLR is a total convention inherited from the world of 35mm film. In that world there were/are practical limitations to combining still and motion equipment (film is bulky). In the Digital world, where all the cameras share the elements of sensors, DSP, and storage there is NO reason they should be separate.

Anyways, the point to me is the kinds of work that can be produced by unifying the two. There are "real" examples of Still/Motion work together. Look at Chris Marker's La Jette (later the inspiration for 12 Monkeys). This is really one of the great 'indie/art' films made. What is Unique is this: It is all still images BUT it was shot on a motion camera. And, it includes a shot that merges still and motion. (I believe it was a 16mm bolex used).

That is right nay-sayers', there are already examples of still/motion work coming from the same camera. The 'art' world is full of them as experimentations. The Commercial world is full of them too: 400 Blows, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid ... As well as general marketing and mixed media work: "stills" from films for advertising and books that go with larger releases. The only issue with making the mix of motion a regular part of the visual language was the fact that equipment that was easily usable was not there. (esp in the digital world)

RED is turning those tables around. When photography first evolved this hard notion of separateness never existed and the boundaries were more fluid. The walls and fences grew up due to the restrictions of technology NOT the desires of artists. It's awesome that some new tools are being created to enable those desires and ideas be explored.

[rico]

thanks
i saw it already but i not like the idea
to have 2 seperate cameras as this creates much problems.

you can read why here:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22472

btw you can also check this link to see my new 3d set up
at a 7m wide screen.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1025179

[Jimmy Gitonga]

Tall and LeeJay...

Canon, Nikon and Sony are also marking the end of the DSLR as we "knew it"... it appears. The whole point, which seems to keep being missed, is that the end of the DSLR (still only camera) is near. Our DSLR-killer is a concept of stills and motion from the same professional camera... now shared by others. Given that definition, RED has a clear lead (at least with specs) over the others given a true pro motion capture. Price was not listed as criteria. Performance is. Consumers are most worried about price. Professionals are most concerned about performance.

If you both want to change the definition and then talk about your point of view relative to that... go right ahead. But please don't quote my comments in the context of your definition and not mine. You are starting to wear me out.

Jim


The whole notion of the DSLR is a total convention inherited from the world of 35mm film. In that world there were/are practical limitations to combining still and motion equipment (film is bulky). In the Digital world, where all the cameras share the elements of sensors, DSP, and storage there is NO reason they should be separate.

Anyways, the point to me is the kinds of work that can be produced by unifying the two. There are "real" examples of Still/Motion work together. Look at Chris Marker's La Jette (later the inspiration for 12 Monkeys). This is really one of the great 'indie/art' films made. What is Unique is this: It is all still images BUT it was shot on a motion camera. And, it includes a shot that merges still and motion. (I believe it was a 16mm bolex used).

That is right nay-sayers', there are already examples of still/motion work coming from the same camera. The 'art' world is full of them as experimentations. The Commercial world is full of them too: 400 Blows, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid ... As well as general marketing and mixed media work: "stills" from films for advertising and books that go with larger releases. The only issue with making the mix of motion a regular part of the visual language was the fact that equipment that was easily usable was not there. (esp in the digital world)

RED is turning those tables around. When photography first evolved this hard notion of separateness never existed and the boundaries were more fluid. The walls and fences grew up due to the restrictions of technology NOT the desires of artists. It's awesome that some new tools are being created to enable those desires and ideas be explored.

I think most of us don't realize how the "Big" camera companies trickle down technology and user interface advancements.

Take for the example, the "video" and "Live View" issue.

The "consumer" still cameras have had these for at least 4 years. When asked why the bigger digital still cameras did not have these facilities, when the companies bothered to answer, the story was these were consumer features. Professionals would not be interested in this as they preferred to have particular tools for particular work. Fair enough (for the companies' business of course).

Problem: What if one started consumer and had to loose features they grew up with to become professional? Do these features make or not make the professional?

I remember on guy in a Creative Cow magazine who hooked up his MacBook Pro to his 1DMkIII and made the camera "dump" frames onto the computer at 24 frames a second. He was able to make some beautiful night footage of, I think, the Bay in San Francisco. But it was not practical.

So the wisdom went that since you are going "professional", you are now entering the "true" photography, Single Lenses Reflex. Digital in DSLR simply means they replaced the film with a digital sensor. But the advantages of the digital sensor were not being used. Until Now.

With these digital still cameras, the sensor is receiving information all the time. Now one does not need the "viewfinder blackout", that is a SLR feature coming from the film days, to get the picture. One of the bottlenecks was the read-out speed of the sensor technology. Now that bridge has been passed. It can be done at X frames per second where X>24. All you adjust is the shutter speed(angle). Theoretically all you need to know is how long you want the exposure to be within a frame time, i.e is the exposure the entire time (1/24 sec)? Is it in half the time (at 1/48 sec) though the frame rate is 24, and so on.

As Jim put it, the read-out speed on RED technology has reached film speed. That means you can Burst" in Still photography terms, up to 24 frames a second. Canon 1MkIII does 10 frames per sec and this is 30 continuous frames of RAW max. Once you add that RED is until you stop and the 1DMkIII is for 3 seconds you get the picture.

So let's agree on some issues.

First, DSLR is dying as a camera concept. The future belongs to a broad definition called DigiCams, which is currently taken to mean "consumer" video or still cameras.

Now we have a definition for picture professionals, DSMC.

NOTE AGAIN: DSMC is not aimed at the professional Still photography market (also known as DSLR). It is aimed IMO at the (previously) "Film" professional who is in motion pictures first and stills second.

Add to this the professional Still photographer who always wanted to go into motion picture but couldn't stand the compromises of video. Add the professional video cam guy who can now shoot like film with the advantages of a digital workflow, like video. Then there is the RED guy who owns a big "DSLR".

In the RED Modular system, these professionals, where the cost is secondary, are taken care of.

The rest of use who want bleeding "RED" edge technology but can't afford it (since we are not "professionals" ;-) ), we have Scarlet. We even have Scarlet FF35!!

Honestly we should thank Jim profusely. We know he is way ahead. And so will we.