The more things change the more they stay the same. [Archive]

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Finner

09-13-2008, 11:00 AM

So I have been away for a bit but 3 things seem to consistantly remain the same.

1. The Red One produces amazing images.

2. A post solution that does not make the editor wish to commit harakiri is just around the corner.

3. The birger mount is shipping next week.

Please feel free to correct me on any of these as I may have missed some important new announcements.

Cheers All

Daren

Frank Weeks

09-13-2008, 11:01 AM

Your dead on

mikeburton

09-13-2008, 11:44 AM

+ Audio/ipin upgrades coming soon, RED Drives are shipping again (got my email yesterday, Pro 7' LCD will start shipping soon (says Brent), Epic has changed (not sure what that means) and there will be a new DSLR killer cam in development.
Once the 16gb cards and new CF Modules start shipping I'll be stoked! Anything I missed in the latest news?

BASSAM MSSALATIE

09-13-2008, 11:48 AM

welcome back Finner .
Yesterday i almost make a new thread called * Where are you Finner *It has been long time ...

Jan Reiff

09-13-2008, 11:50 AM

looking out for the 4.5K upgrade!

Noah Kadner

09-13-2008, 12:12 PM

Welcome back! Is prison food as bad as they say?

Noah

BASSAM MSSALATIE

09-13-2008, 12:27 PM

Welcome back! Is prison food as bad as they say?

Noah

Firestorm always start's with a Spark .
Please don't set it up :)

Tobias Straka

09-13-2008, 02:11 PM

Well Nr. 2 has been resolved a long time ago... And who wants to play with iMovie anyway?!

Deanan

09-13-2008, 04:08 PM

2. A post solution that does not make the editor wish to commit harakiri is just around the corner.

Sounds like a good time for an update. Things have been moving very quickly behind the scenes on many different fronts. There are alot of things happening with partners that we aren't abl to talk about yet.

Currently the most popular workflows we're seeing is transcoding to ProRes or DNxHD (via compressor, RR, RC, RL, or via the wrappers into Media Composer). At the moment, editing in the native editor codecs gives you the best editing workflow (because they're native, rgb, lower res, less space).
Transcode times for an 8 core mac are about 3:1 for 2k (from 4k) and greater than realtime for 1k (from 4k).

There's be a new release of the QT codec week that fixes a bunch of things and enables more control over the 2k decode speed/quality. This release will also work better with compressor, etc.

The first version Adobe plugin is currently being tuned and will provide a good base to grow the workflow as we continue to work with Adobe on improving the workflow. It's a tremendous amount of work to get it right but we're very excited about where we're going here.

I'll let Michael speak about the Avid future when they're ready to. We're looking forward to what they have planned because it will really make R3D/Avid very smooth.

There is also very cool stuff happening with RED support from Adobe/Assimilate, Quantel, Digital Vision, DVS, etc. There are more announcements planned for IBC from other companies but I don't know which ones I can talk about yet.

We're working on a number of fixes for the SDK which should be released next week. There are a ton of very cool tools planned from various people who signed up for the sdk.

We have a HUGE todo list and mostly everything is a high priority.

Esteban Sosnitsky

09-13-2008, 04:22 PM

The first version Adobe plugin is currently being tuned and will provide a good base to grow the workflow as we continue to work with Adobe on improving the workflow. It's a tremendous amount of work to get it right but we're very excited about where we're going here.

Deanan, I have a couple of upcoming projects that could so much give a good use to that plug in. I know you are working hard and all but could you give us an estimate on when could the plug in be available? :waaa:

Deanan

09-13-2008, 04:37 PM

Deanan, I have a couple of upcoming projects that could so much give a good use to that plug in. I know you are working hard and all but could you give us an estimate on when could the plug in be available? :waaa:

It's really hard to say as there are some big changes to it being made under the hood. There's always risk with that but we are hoping for week after next.

I Bloom

09-13-2008, 04:52 PM

Dominic Cochran

09-13-2008, 05:03 PM

I Bloom

09-13-2008, 05:14 PM

IDK Ian, seemed pretty accurate to me. Of course it depends on the editor, but if you have to ship the footage to someone else, chances are they don't know what's going on. Luckily we don't have that problem(we're full-service), but I can certainly empathize with those who do.

4K origination and finishing did not exist before the Red camera other than in tiny extremely high end and basically experimental pockets of the film industry. They created a new industry essentially that has only been truly in motion for less than a year.

The problem is not that it can't be done, I have clients finishing Red productions on laptops, it is that there is a learning curve that people don't want to deal with. There are guys working tirelessly, trying to reduce that learning curve and expand the reach of this new industry. But the problems are truly complex and the solutions are going to take time. Bemoaning this reality will not make it go away any faster.

IBloom

Dominic Cochran

09-13-2008, 05:29 PM

Ah, if only 4K finishing were the only problem. But somehow, I doubt that's what Finner is "bitching" about. But yes, I do agree with you for the most part. Problem is, most people just want a way to edit and finish this stuff at 2K or(much) less.

Personally, we've figured it out because we've been here from the beginning and spent a lot of time here, others who are expected to be able to deal with RED post aren't so lucky. I just hope the guys you mention ARE working very hard, because it's in all of our interests to see RED not only understood, but welcomed universally.

And of course, your personal contribution is much appreciated, and even more when the Avid component gets finished!

Bruce Allen

09-13-2008, 05:34 PM

Currently the most popular workflows we're seeing is transcoding to ProRes or DNxHD (via compressor, RR, RC, RL, or via the wrappers into Media Composer).

Really?

RedCine currently gives me (and everyone else, I thought) noise when I go to DNxHD.

EDIT: and all the other acronyms you use don't exist for PC.

And how do you get audio in a non-convoluted way on a PC running Media Composer?

How is this a current, popular workflow if it's not possible yet?

From what I've tried, we still have to go through immediate steps. The arrow on the red.com workflow page that points from RedCine to Avid in a single step is misleading.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Deanan

09-13-2008, 06:09 PM

The QT ref files is the best way to get into MC directly (on the mac).

We're waiting for Avid to release a new version of the DNxHD for all our tools. It's a change on the AVID side end that needs to happen to get around the noise problem. The unreleased version works well for transcoding but I'm sure they have their own QC process that they have to go through.

Audio support is in underway at the moment for RC and the SDK.

It's been always clear that we're a mac based company and mac support would be ahead of PC support. All development work happens first on the mac and then it takes time to port everything 'reliably' while at the same time supporting constant camera and codec changes.

Really?

RedCine currently gives me (and everyone else, I thought) noise when I go to DNxHD.

EDIT: and all the other acronyms you use don't exist for PC.

And how do you get audio in a non-convoluted way on a PC running Media Composer?

How is this a current, popular workflow if it's not possible yet?

From what I've tried, we still have to go through immediate steps. The arrow on the red.com workflow page that points from RedCine to Avid in a single step is misleading.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Jay A. Kelley

09-13-2008, 07:42 PM

Sounds like a good time for an update. Things have been moving very quickly behind the scenes on many different fronts. There are alot of things happening with partners that we aren't abl to talk about yet.

Currently the most popular workflows we're seeing is transcoding to ProRes or DNxHD (via compressor, RR, RC, RL, or via the wrappers into Media Composer). At the moment, editing in the native editor codecs gives you the best editing workflow (because they're native, rgb, lower res, less space).
Transcode times for an 8 core mac are about 3:1 for 2k (from 4k) and greater than realtime for 1k (from 4k).

There's be a new release of the QT codec week that fixes a bunch of things and enables more control over the 2k decode speed/quality. This release will also work better with compressor, etc.

The first version Adobe plugin is currently being tuned and will provide a good base to grow the workflow as we continue to work with Adobe on improving the workflow. It's a tremendous amount of work to get it right but we're very excited about where we're going here.

I'll let Michael speak about the Avid future when they're ready to. We're looking forward to what they have planned because it will really make R3D/Avid very smooth.

There is also very cool stuff happening with RED support from Adobe/Assimilate, Quantel, Digital Vision, DVS, etc. There are more announcements planned for IBC from other companies but I don't know which ones I can talk about yet.

We're working on a number of fixes for the SDK which should be released next week. There are a ton of very cool tools planned from various people who signed up for the sdk.

We have a HUGE todo list and mostly everything is a high priority.

I am looking forward to Avid's announcement as well. I'm sure they are working very hard to make things wonderful for us.

:)

Jay

Evin Grant

09-13-2008, 08:06 PM

Bruce Allen

09-13-2008, 08:25 PM

The QT ref files is the best way to get into MC directly (on the mac).

We're waiting for Avid to release a new version of the DNxHD for all our tools. It's a change on the AVID side end that needs to happen to get around the noise problem. The unreleased version works well for transcoding but I'm sure they have their own QC process that they have to go through.

Audio support is in underway at the moment for RC and the SDK.

It's been always clear that we're a mac based company and mac support would be ahead of PC support. All development work happens first on the mac and then it takes time to port everything 'reliably' while at the same time supporting constant camera and codec changes.

Very much understood.

I was simply disputing your "current popular workflows" rebuttal, which included RedCine -> Avid DNxHD.

That workflow is not current and popular because it doesn't work yet.

But you advertise it on your web page.

Just want you to understand that if it did work, we really would be complaining a lot less. Avid seems pretty low on your to-do list or else you would have had DNxHD exports from RedCine working a year ago. Glad to hear you plan to fix it, or course.

So I think Finner is right for now.

We all hope for him to be wrong ASAP ;)

BTW, last time I asked about Quicktime PC support (a month or two ago?), you guys said "real soon now".

Can't someone just write a wrapper using your SDK? Eg, a temp quicktime codec that simply calls the SDK functions for the decode. Doesn't need to be realtime. Seems pretty simple to me. Then suddenly we'd be able to import on Avid on the PC.

Can I write it?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Nigel Stanford

09-13-2008, 09:14 PM

Deanan

09-13-2008, 09:29 PM

I was simply disputing your "current popular workflows" rebuttal, which included RedCine -> Avid DNxHD.

That workflow is not current and popular because it doesn't work yet.

But you advertise it on your web page.

Can't someone just write a wrapper using your SDK? Eg, a temp quicktime codec that simply calls the SDK functions for the decode. Doesn't need to be realtime. Seems pretty simple to me. Then suddenly we'd be able to import on Avid on the PC.

Can I write it?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Actually, I said ProRes or DNxHD (via compressor, RR, RC, RL, or via the wrappers into Media Composer): meaning it's possible to go to ProRes or DNxHD using a bunch of different methods.

And yes, transcoding to prores or dnxhd is the more popular method and we have way more visibility into what people are using.

You can certainly use the SDK to write any transcoder you'd like. Doing that would be better than complaining about the same arrow on a diagram over and over and over for a codec we have no control over (or go bug Michael to release the codec to you early).

Deanan

09-13-2008, 09:35 PM

Denan,
What's up with Apple? I see news from everyone else but. I'm very excited about the Premier stuff but I was really hoping to have native support for Color by now. Has apple really given up on Pro Apps? I know you can't answer this but it sure feels like it.

A different perspective... It took us a while to learn this but it's really true in alot of companies and not just apple.

We're so used to cranking out releases really quickly and adding features constantly, that we've expected everyone else to be the same way. The truth is that when you have years and years of developed code it makes it really challenging to add a completely new workflow and color pipeline (raw has a whole new set of requirements to tie metadata back to the camera and alow it to be modified through the process, plus the wavelet proxies, etc).

Add on top of that the amount of testing a big company has to do to release something and the cross testing involving a 100 other unrelated features, the implications are staggering.

I. Wilson

09-13-2008, 09:51 PM

<SNIP>

It's been always clear that we're a mac based company and mac support would be ahead of PC support. All development work happens first on the mac and then it takes time to port everything 'reliably' while at the same time supporting constant camera and codec changes.

Hmm so why are ADOBE doing the running. When is the big announcement from Apple? I mean they aren't even at IBC

Evin Grant

09-13-2008, 10:59 PM

I have the perfect solution!
An R3D codec for the iPhone!
Then we'll see some development.

A. Bastaki

09-13-2008, 11:08 PM

Sorry Guys...

Finner -
You are dead on.

Finner

09-13-2008, 11:18 PM

4. Finner still thinks bitching is a good way to solve problems.

Ha ha ha ha ha....... OUCH.

Finner just likes to shake the tree a bit and see what falls out; you should know that by now Ian. Hope things are well with you.

Bruce Allen

09-14-2008, 12:01 AM

You can certainly use the SDK to write any transcoder you'd like.

Okay, will do. I am signing my life away as we speak. Once I get back from my Japan shoot, I will start coding unless things have moved forward.

Doing that would be better than complaining about the same arrow on a diagram over and over and over for a codec we have no control over (or go bug Michael to release the codec to you early).

You guys do have control over that arrow though! All you need is a little asterisk saying "pending codec update from Avid" on your marketing page and you'd never hear anything from me.

Avid does not have any gigantic Red workflow diagram adverts on their site, so I don't see why I need to bug them to live up to their advertising.

You understand that this is all about the disconnect between Red marketing and Red reality, right?

Red in reality is amazing. Red marketing promises amazing PLUS ONE. And amazing PLUS TWO real soon now (which keeps getting pushed back).

For anyone who doesn't like being lied to, this will always be a problem. No matter how amazing your product is.

Sorry, maybe this is a cultural thing. I have similar beef with Apple, but lots of people in America love them. The English generally take a slightly more dim view of their marketing (the advertising standards authority is always taking them to task), because they take being lied to in adverts very seriously. That's my cultural background, and I'm not compromising on it, however much I like Red, sorry.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

I Bloom

09-14-2008, 12:36 AM

Ha ha ha ha ha....... OUCH.

Finner just likes to shake the tree a bit and see what falls out; you should know that by now Ian. Hope things are well with you.

Always a pleasure. Really I'm just still mad about that goat thing.

IBloom

Tobias Straka

09-14-2008, 02:08 AM

Really I'm just still mad about that goat thing.

IBloom

Do I really want to know...?

Deanan

09-14-2008, 02:28 AM

You guys do have control over that arrow though! All you need is a little asterisk saying "pending codec update from Avid" on your marketing page and you'd never hear anything from me.

No one is lying to you Bruce. We try in every case to be honest with the customers and do what's best to customers. I've dealt with many companies who are nowhere near as close to our dedication to the customer. To say that we're lying to you is an insult to everyone at red that has been working 7 days a week for the last few years often well past midnight (Jim included), for the customer.

And, if you want to know all about the arrow, that diagram was created so long ago that it was when people were outputting tiffs from redcine to ingest into avid and premiere. There's nothing there that says anything about DNxHD. So, the diagram is still valid. :tongue: :tongue: :tongue:

hanselblat

09-14-2008, 03:45 AM

Eryc Tramonn

09-14-2008, 04:28 AM

No one is lying to you...I've dealt with many companies who are nowhere near as close to our dedication to the customer. To say that we're lying to you is an insult to everyone at red that has been working 7 days a week for the last few years often well past midnight (Jim included), for the customer.

That's the kind of response we like to hear; your conviction and diligence are what have made the RED into the dream machine/company it is. I know I speak for most everyone when I extend the deepest gratitude for all your time and efforts. Like so many others, I am in awe of what your team has accomplished in such a relatively short amount of time.

Now that that's said, I also understand what you're saying Bruce, but I would not hazard to think the guys are being intentionally misleading.

Christopher Grant Harvey

09-14-2008, 04:46 AM

Now that that's said, I also understand what you're saying Bruce, but I would not hazard to think the guys are being intentionally misleading.

Red do have a habit of hyping something up way too early and then we hear nothing for months... sometimes the absence of comment leads to assumption... which leads to more assumptions. :blink:

Lucas Wilson

09-14-2008, 05:22 AM

Geez Bruce...

I can go look at *any* manufacturers' website and find stories that are stretched a bit here and there. It's called marketing and PR. The same thing is true with cars, computers, can openers, refrigerators, and nonfat yogurt.

There is *nothing* misleading or wrong about "the arrow." RED is making no performance claims, or even specifying a format there. It could be TIFF files. It could be MJPEG Quicktimes. And in the text below, they say DNxHD Quicktime. Yes, that works with certain specific versions of the codec and with specific versions of the software.

Molehill != Mountain.

Lucas

Paul Hazlett

09-14-2008, 06:20 AM

Always a pleasure. Really I'm just still mad about that goat thing.

IBloom

does this have anything to do with vats of cocoa butter?

Simon Valderrama

09-14-2008, 07:19 AM

I have the perfect solution!
An R3D codec for the iPhone!
Then we'll see some development.

hahaha ... so true.
well, also so sad.

as a pro i feel a lot abandoned by Apple.
guess i'll have to start migrating to Nuke and leave my beloved Shake.
Never imagined i could abandon a sw i was so happy about ... also i was planning to seriously learn color, now i'm wondering if it's worth.
Doesn't even work in HD with my Aja IO HD ...

Simon Valderrama

09-14-2008, 07:21 AM

Also, the fact Adobe is going faster is really incredible.
I remember Premiere was my first editing software as a student, guess i'll have to go back to my origins? :shiftyph34r:

Jay A. Kelley

09-14-2008, 08:19 AM

This is not about Adobe moving faster. It's about each company's business model and how it's affecting development. (Valde this is not aimed at you, lots of people are saying this, I just happen to be following your post)

Apple, Avid and Adobe. Of the three, Apple is the most diverse. In other words, as many of you have already noted, the flavor of the month at Apple is the iphone and ipod. These two things have REALLY overpowered the computer division. But the bottom line is that while Apple may have jumped in bed with RED early on, that does not mean they intend to STAY there, or continue with the same intensity they did back at NAB '06.

Apple and Avid are similar in that they are both running on closed business models. In other words they have a large firewall between their products and the rest of the world. Prores is Apple's baby, so you get all the wonders of real time this and that as long as you use their codec (Cineform also get's some realtime work here, but they do not have access to the "guts" of FCP).
I would not be surprised that, rather than support R3D files better, they COMPETE with R3D files (and others) by increasing Prores to a 4:4;4 16bit RGB codec. They are more LIKE Microsoft than different from it.

As for Avid it's DNxHD.

Adobe is an open system. They have been for a long time. It's what allows company's like Cineform (And now RED) to write their plugins so effectively. When Adobe "supports' RED it's a good thing, but remember, they support everybody. It's not Adobe that's moving fast, it's Rob Lohman and Co writinig code for a program that's not "getting in their way" and getting help from Adobe when needed.

So you are right in that Adobe is doing more than Apple, but it's because Adobe's "BUSINESS MODEL" allows the developers the ACCESS to get things done. Apple does not.

Another factor is that Adobe and Avid depend on their editing software (And in some cases hardware) to make their livings, so they will take a much more aggressive stance with developement.

A while back you may remember a letter from the President of Avid stating that they were listening to their customer's needs and planned to open their system up to others. Now the details of this remain vauge, but if the mucky-mucks at Avid are serious in this then it will be a game changer.

I'm not speaking so much about R3D files. As much as I love the potential of REDCode, it's a CAMERA codec. That means it's only use to me is what I have shot with the RED. No, what I am speaking of is Avid's apparent desire to open to a number of platforms. If this happens, then it would mean we'd have all the advantages of THE industry standard editing system, while enjoying the open workflow we get with Adobe.

If Avid does this, then everyone around them will be shaking in their boots.

Avid was the leader for a long time, and I think they have had their "come to Jesus" moment. As long as they take the path they KNOW they must take, then the playing field for "the big three" will be very different in one year.

As for RED and post. Adobe is going to kick Apple's butt in terms of support for REDCode because while the guys at RED will have to sit on their heels waiting for Apple to get things done, they will be able to move almost resistance free on the Adobe side.

This is kind of a tough position for RED, after all they came out of the gate with Apple because Apple took them seriously early on. There's some loyality there on the part of RED. That said, Apple's BUSINESS MODEL is going to make it hard for RED to get things done at the speed they want too. But if support runs ahead for Adobe, leaving all you FCP users in the dust, then RED is in the not so popular position of having told people early on "if you want support in editing, buy a mac". It was true, Apple offered the earliest support for R3D files of all of them.. What remains to be seen however, is if they offer the BEST support of these files.

Thank God for BootCamp.

Given all the bugs in Color, the fact that it's support of deep color is spotty at best, and it's closed business model, I am guessing Adobe is about to get very popular. Until Avid catches up.

Jay

Jaime Vallés

09-14-2008, 08:31 AM

This is kind of a tough position for RED, after all they came out of the gate with Apple because Apple took them seriously early on. There's some loyality there on the part of RED. That said, Apple's BUSINESS MODEL is going to make it hard for RED to get things done at the speed they want too. But if support runs ahead for Adobe, leaving all you FCP users in the dust, then RED is in the not so popular position of having told people early on "if you want support in editing, buy a mac". It was true, Apple offered the earliest support for R3D files of all of them.. What remains to be seen however, is if they offer the BEST support of these files.

Thank God for BootCamp.
Great post, Jay. The only thing that should be clarified is that Adobe's upcoming Premiere on CS4 will run on OSX as well as in Windows. People that have already bought a Mac system need to merely change editing software. No need for Boot Camp.

Otherwise, spot on.

Jay A. Kelley

09-14-2008, 08:38 AM

Jaime,

Thank god.. This way no one loses, and everyone will be taken care of.

Jay

Paris Remillard

09-14-2008, 08:54 AM

Adam Glick

09-14-2008, 09:01 AM

I haven't heard anybody talking about "integration" of these two apps per se, just the development of a smooth and effective pipeline between the two.

This, along with things like the rumored Avid/OMF support for CS4, I think Adobe are showing that they are not interested in locking things down. On the contrary, this seems to be all about making things more open.

Christopher Grant Harvey

09-14-2008, 09:14 AM

Although Adobe does not have an application like Color built into it, it does allow 3rd party plugins that are as powerful as Color if not more powerful.

Now if you are using CineForm and Premiere (on PC) you can take extra advantage of these plugins (as long as they 32 bpc) and CF. Using CineForm's Metadata you can apply the effects and create a LUT, or using Speedgrade you can import a LUT and apply it realtime to your media in Premiere. No rendering.

This is up to 4K RAW material all at 32bpc... realtime...

Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock

09-14-2008, 10:01 AM

David Birdy

09-14-2008, 10:54 AM

So my question is...When the Adobe plug-in for Premiere is released will it operate most effectively on an Apple or PC platform???

I waiting to purchase one or the other.....I am in the camp of the platform that works best with the R3D files!!!

Dave

P.S.
Welcome back Finner....your time away has not mellowed you!:usd:

Great post Jay

A. Bastaki

09-14-2008, 11:17 AM

Finner just likes to shake the tree a bit and see what falls out; you should know that by now Ian. Hope things are well with you.

LOL, thats is exactly what was on my mind when i wrote my previous post.. i was like... they did bring out a b16 freebie which was really nice... so finner's post aint all that true... but aaah.. lets shake the tree a bit and see whats falls out.. lol

Ariana

09-14-2008, 11:58 AM

How old are you boys? 12?
Didn't you mother teach you about manners, tact, or grace?

Finner

09-14-2008, 12:02 PM

Oh ya I forgot about the 4th thing that never seems to change.

4. Ariana's posts continue to make next to little sense.

Ariana

09-14-2008, 12:08 PM

Just shaking the tree to see what falls out of Finner.
Ha ha ha, I'm really smart like Finner.

Anthony Gratl

09-14-2008, 12:20 PM

Jay A. Kelley

09-14-2008, 12:36 PM

I am still seeing "Abode is working with this company or that company"

The question is not who they are working with, it's who are they NOT working with.

Guys Abode is an OPEN PLATFORM. They welcome anyone and everyone. Iif you see press releases that say "we're working with Adobe" this does not mean some super special partnership that only exists once in a blue moon.

It's just Marketing, that's all. It does not mean that Adobe has made any super special business decisions. They don't have too, THEY WORK WITH EVERYBODY!!

Assimilate will be writing whatever it is they want to write for Adobe, and it will work. Such is the nature of the company. They will support Assimilate just like they support Cineform, RED, Color Finesse, Aja, BlackMajic, and the list goes on and on and on.

Don't be mislead.

The only exception to this rule are codecs and presets that come with the package when you buy it. But if it's a plugin, everyone's the same.

Jay

Jay A. Kelley

09-14-2008, 12:38 PM

All Adobe needs is a Color equivalent. I know, I know, they're working with Assimilate. But as others have said, unless Scratch is bundled at no extra cost with CS4, as Color is in FCS, then it's not an option for most of us. With the power and depth of PS and lightroom, it seems like a video/motion picture grading app would be an easy and logical next step, but.... what the hell do I know?

I'm actually worried that their integration with Assimilate might hinder the development of such an application. But again, what do I know?

They are also working with Color Finesse and it costs about $300.00. It works in both Premiere for Basic color correction, and it works in After Effects when you need more powerful work.

I love Color Finesse, but if it did Masks in Premiere, then I would love it a lot more.

Jay

Jay A. Kelley

09-14-2008, 12:40 PM

now we're talkin'! alright luki, when you figure that'll be released? winter 08 too early?

The day I see a finishing program that 10x the cost of the editing package it's bundled with, and the finishing program is free.. I'll eat clothing.

Now I bet you could get Scratch to include CS4!

Jay

Anthony Gratl

09-14-2008, 12:44 PM

The day I see a finishing program that 10x the cost of the editing package it's bundled with, and the finishing program is free.. I'll eat clothing.
Jay

well, i'll come over to your house that day and shoot it. We'll call it
"Jay A. Kelley Eats His Clothes"

Jay A. Kelley

09-14-2008, 12:47 PM

He he he... If you can get full SCRATCH included witih Premiere for free we'll make it horror movie:

Jay the Clothes eating Monster from Hell and Beyond the Black Hole of Death!

ChristopherKenworthy

09-14-2008, 06:14 PM

That silence of Apple...

I would bet that a product like Color, Shake and FC rolled into one superapp (plus a few surprises..... maybe Logic integration?) is in the works.

Would explain the non-developement of Color and a few other mystery-thingies at Apple.

Next year.... Steve Jobs color grading footage live on his iPhone... compositing and composing at the same time.... autoediting with "Crank", "Bourne" or "Traffic" presets..... they "just work".....

;-))

Jochen

We've been told that Color with read the RD3 files natively. That gives me hope that a super-app is on the way. It really ought to be, as many die-hard FCP and Apple fans (including me) are just so ready to head over to Adobe if it works better.

Ross Birkbeck

09-15-2008, 09:16 AM

All I'm hoping for is that the Color FX room in Color becomes Shake. Inside Color.

That would be cool...

Martin Tlaskal

09-15-2008, 09:39 AM

There is also very cool stuff happening with RED support from Adobe/Assimilate, Quantel, Digital Vision, DVS, etc. There are more announcements planned for IBC from other companies but I don't know which ones I can talk about yet.

FilmLight hasn't been too vocal about it because we're waiting for the Linux SDK, but at IBC we're showing (on a Mac) full conform (from FCP XML) and grading of R3D files on the timeline as well as interactive modification of R3D metadata and render out to DPX, QT, DNxHD MXF with all the metadata intact. Our experience with the SDK has been very positive, sure further improvements will make things better, but v1 was very easy to integrate.

-Martin

Axel Mertes

09-15-2008, 12:55 PM

All I like to see i native RAW access being supported official via the SDK. No more transcoding and time consuming deBayering, just RAW compression decoding and hand over to third parties.

I remember well the days back when I told to Iridas to decode RAW via the GPU. At first they were not immediately convinced, but soon I was able to point out that RAW reduces data transfers to 1/3, storage requirements to 1/3, and GPUs are good on doing deBayer performance wise. Those are the real bottlenecks in todays production pipelines. The GPUs are hell fast when the data is in them. So reducing 4K to 1/3 was a logical step here.

They did - and they did it REALLY perfectly. The deBayer they have is a really good one. Go out and compare yourself... They have even different quality levels, if required.

Iridas can play RAW 2K and 4K in realtime. Its far ahead any competition in this subject, faster than some de(a)dicated hardware RAW processing boards. Thats why almost every RAW camera vendor makes use of them. The only exception is currently RED, and by the sake of "truth" and "dedication to customer needs" RED will hopefully soon support native RAW access (at the same speeds as it was possible to decode Build 15- RGBA JPEG2000 code streams) instead of waiting for others like Apple or Assimilate to catch up here. Using SpeedgradeDI via RGB decoded R3D is not only slow, its useless compared to what is already in there, which has already prooven to work. This wastes customers time, not exactly REDs, but may result in less quicker RED success. If RED is currently complaining about others not catching up with them - why do not support those who really catch up with them?
They exists, they are there, they are waiting for RED (not the other way around)...

Running build 16 in that context feels like driving with the brakes still on. Its a gread build, function-wise. But the codec change hurts me much. Build 15 footage can be graded in realtime, directly from R3D codecs. It was all there. Give it back to all of us, on a solid open minded friendship SDK approach that makes the RED camera a realtime thing (again). Btw, SpeedgradeDI did not require an overtuned 8core to decode RAW in realtime, 4core "off the shelf" was more than enough, free CPU/GPU room for grading at the same time. 2K 24/25/30 fps realtime while playing, 4K while grading a still frame - realtime.

Just to point something out here :)

I am sure someone listens. And I hope someone gets the point.

Cheers,
Axel

Jay A. Kelley

09-15-2008, 01:59 PM

People should read this article. Google has it down.. Just read this and insert any product you wish, the lessons remain the same.

This is good reading for all of us, RED, and third parties alike.

I only wish Apple would read this:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26674814/

Jay

Lucas Wilson

09-15-2008, 04:36 PM

...instead of waiting for others like Apple or Assimilate to catch up here.

Catch up to what?

. Btw, SpeedgradeDI did not require an overtuned 8core to decode RAW in realtime, 4core "off the shelf" was more than enough,

Neither does SCRATCH or any of the other programs working on this.

But it is required for the quality level that SCRATCH can decode in realtime for realtime manipulation and realtime output. And that *realtime* quality and stability level with R3D is alone in its class right now.. If it was not the best product out right now for these demands, then other manufacturers and their customers would be shouting it to the rooftops.

Bottom line - the SDK has been released. It will get better.

If you have jobs right now - *today* - then promises of future performance get you nowhere. There is what exists in promises, and what exists today for today's productions.

Caveat Emptor.

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

Axel Mertes

09-16-2008, 02:32 AM

Luki,

it was sooo predictable clear that you are going to comment on this :)

As it has been pointed out before, RED should be as open as Adobe to third parties. Nothing else to say.

All interested poeple are intelligent enough to see and compare products like Scratch, Color, Nucoda, Pablo, SpeedgradeDI, AVID, Adobe (to name a few) and decide on their own which workflow fits best their needs. I encourage every user to evaluate packages deeply before placing any investments. In both cases its always a serious investment and needs to be handled seriously.

There is to much promises and to few existing features out there.

Thanks listening,
Axel

Lucas Wilson

09-16-2008, 02:41 AM

it was sooo predictable clear that you are going to comment on this :)

I suppose so... if you implicitly say something misleading about SCRATCH, then chances are I will pop up!

Best,

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA
(...actually typing this from the Adobe stage while Ted is giving his presentation...)

Kreisky

09-16-2008, 03:06 AM

2. A post solution that does not make the editor wish to commit harakiri is just around the corner.

For PC or MAC ?

Axel Mertes

09-16-2008, 05:04 AM

Luki,

so you are a pop up?

Don't get blocked...

Axel