The Great Lens Conundrum

[Van Royko]

So I know this has come up a few times but I think its deserving of a very focused posting...so her goes...

I am DOP almost in possession of a RED. Like most, I will need to rent the camera out to other DOPs to pay for it. Therefore the choice of lenses is very important. Unfortunately, I live in a region with some monopolizing, fascist rental houses who simply refuse to rent lenses at any cost to owner-operators. (My only solace is that I believe that the Red wave shall bring them to their knees. Forgive me- I digress)

The issues

1) If I had my rathers I would use a set of modified Zeiss Zfs. (I recently read that the focus throw is actually quite long on these lenses and that they are super sharp and beautiful etc. Is this true by the way?) Nonetheless- renting them to other DOPs for anything but low low budget projects may prove tough.

2) My option is to try and cobble together a bastardized set of Zeiss Standard speeds for too much $$$. MY BIG FEAR- these lenses inflated value will crash in the next year with RED primes and OPTAR illumina coming on line. I would really like some responses to this fear. I suppose no one still knows when we will see the Red primes.

3) As far as bastardized sets go- will all Standard speeds color match. Will they color match with Super Speeds as well?

Thanks in advance

[Matt Uhry]

So I know this has come up a few times but I think its deserving of a very focused posting...so her goes...

I am DOP almost in possession of a RED. Like most, I will need to rent the camera out to other DOPs to pay for it. Therefore the choice of lenses is very important. Unfortunately, I live in a region with some monopolizing, fascist rental houses who simply refuse to rent lenses at any cost to owner-operators. (My only solace is that I believe that the Red wave shall bring them to their knees. Forgive me- I digress)

The issues

1) If I had my rathers I would use a set of modified Zeiss Zfs. (I recently read that the focus throw is actually quite long on these lenses and that they are super sharp and beautiful etc. Is this true by the way?) Nonetheless- renting them to other DOPs for anything but low low budget projects may prove tough.

2) My option is to try and cobble together a bastardized set of Zeiss Standard speeds for too much $$$. MY BIG FEAR- these lenses inflated value will crash in the next year with RED primes and OPTAR illumina coming on line. I would really like some responses to this fear. I suppose no one still knows when we will see the Red primes.

3) As far as bastardized sets go- will all Standard speeds color match. Will they color match with Super Speeds as well?

Thanks in advance

I think you are thinking the right thoughts, 20 year old zeiss lens sets that cost 35k-45k will most likely descend rapidly in value when modern lenses become suddenly available. ( Red Primes, Optars, Optica-Elite ) It's going to be hard to make the value difference in markup in a year's worth of rentals.

Maybe you can find an owner - operator who has a set of super speeds you can take on consignment and share profits ? Or buddy up with a non local rental house ?

Zeiss ZF's ? I think the lenses are nice, the problem is the weakness of the nikon mount, It's not made for the kind of abuse cinema situations dish out. This would not make your camera all that appealing on the rental market, but the pictures would probably look very nice.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Steve Sherrick]

Matt, have you checked out Doug's new mount? Lenses fit as snug as PL (or very close) No play whatsoever.

But I think the overall problem with Nikon or any other still lens is that the mechanics are different than cine lenses and ACs have been trained on cine lenses, so you can understand why there might be some resistence to using still lenses which for the most part do not work the same.

I do think the lens market will be shaken up when the new lenses come out, so it might be worth waiting on those Speeds. They have gone up too much. Great lenses, but way over their value now. Of course, if you have lots of work lined up and can rent them out at great rates, maybe you can make up some of that money and then have a nice set to work with, but I'd wait it out if possible.

Maybe get a set of the Zeiss ZF modified by RP Lens or something like that so you have a set of lenses to work with until the new lenses arrive.

[Matt Uhry]

Matt, have you checked out Doug's new mount? Lenses fit as snug as PL (or very close) No play whatsoever.

But I think the overall problem with Nikon or any other still lens is that the mechanics are different than cine lenses and ACs have been trained on cine lenses, so you can understand why there might be some resistence to using still lenses which for the most part do not work the same.

I do think the lens market will be shaken up when the new lenses come out, so it might be worth waiting on those Speeds. They have gone up too much. Great lenses, but way over their value now. Of course, if you have lots of work lined up and can rent them out at great rates, maybe you can make up some of that money and then have a nice set to work with, but I'd wait it out if possible.

Maybe get a set of the Zeiss ZF modified by RP Lens or something like that so you have a set of lenses to work with until the new lenses arrive.


I'm sure Doug's mount is as good as can be, but Nikon lenses are held in place by 3 leaf springs... They don't deal well with the kind of side loading a follow focus or remote focus puts on them.

Canon FD, which uses a lock-ring design is the exception to this and would be potential source of lens bargains that are mechanically great and optically a little old but not shabby. ( oh yeah and 24mm 1.4's are floating around out there too... )

I believe still lenses are a very good way to go in the short term and have recommended them to my owner/operator friends who want to spend $4000 on a basic set of lenses and not $35,000 !

I don't think however you'll have much success in the medium to high end rental market with a set of still lenses on your camera, which was Ooogabooga's concern

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Joel Kaye]

I don't think however you'll have much success in the medium to high end rental market with a set of still lenses on your camera

Seems to me that's a market that's just as well serviced by renting the whole package from a rental house. If you don't already have the clients to support the purchase of high end lenses I don't imagine a person would gain them by doing so.

I'd guess the biggest opportunity for most RED owners is in the lower end of the market. Frankly, the changing economics of the industry almost dictate lower and lower budgets so that part of the market will expand and the high end will continue to contract.

Ergo, rent the whole package for high end stuff and keep your RED with SLR lenses around for everything else.

[Noah Kadner]

It greatly depends on your location. With a low-end kit in a market with high availability like L.A. or NYC you'll likely get eaten alive with that kit at least on the rental side. But maybe in someplace where there's no other camera available you'll have better luck.

Noah

[Sam Druckerman]

It's seems to me the question is more about when to buy what glass, and time the market.

So be careful, the RACE is on for all RED owners to build relationships with clients. And the clock is ticking........

Penny wise, dollar foolish.

You have to think in terms of an overall business strategy. Sometimes a business needs things that may or may not be a good investment on there own, but add value to your service, attract more clients and more established ones at that.

I'd rather take a hit for several thousands dollars on a purchase of older glass spread out over a few years than Not having a pro package ready to go.

With your own set of PL glass you would have a much better chance of out bidding mid/low level gigs from the rental house's.

The high level gigs are going to go with the house's anyway.

In the long run it's really about getting the camera out the door as much as possible.


2) My option is to try and cobble together a bastardized set of Zeiss Standard speeds for too much $$$. MY BIG FEAR- these lenses inflated value will crash in the next year with RED primes and OPTAR illumina coming on line. I would really like some responses to this fear. I suppose no one still knows when we will see the Red primes.


So respectfully, my biggest fear is having the camera sit around too much.

For a lot of us in large markets like here in LA, it doesn't seem to matter right now if you own glass as much, but who knows, when there are 6,000 RED's in the world, it might.

If you can't rent pro glass, than perhaps you more than most RED owners should own a set.

Having a complete pro package is also a great way to network with pro's, which leads to more opportunity.

Penny wise, dollar foolish.........

The fear of loosing some money on glass could cost you ten fold in possible rentals, building contacts/relationships, etc.

Would you be willing to lose $5K to $10k on glass if it meant $20 to $30K more in income?

I remember having to make these choices last year, and I know it can be overwhelming.

Good luck and best wishes.

[Van Royko]

Thank you everyone for the amazing well thought out and thorough replies. This is more than I hoped for....

There is one questions I havnt had answered yet. What are your professional opinions on Standard Speeds vs Super Speeds.

1) Do they color match? (in the case that I might have to mix and match)

2) Are Standards as good as supers but just lack a stop?

(A stop that I read is fairly inferior to the rest of the lense performance.)

My sincere thanks again

[Evin Grant]

ooga...
I have a set of bastard standards and they match fine. My honest opinion is that unless you are constantly shooting in situations that require T1.3 the standards are actually a better choice for a Red. Mostly it comes down to contrast. The T2.1 lenses are simpler designs and have better contrast and sharpness from wide open to about T4 where the Supers pretty much come even. The supers offer a very nice lower contrast look and aren't "soft" but they aren't as crispy as the T2.1s. Another aspect that surprised me is how resistant to CA they are, much better than either Supers or Cooke S4s.

Here is a frame from a 24mm standard speed, at about T2.8...
http://www.evingrant.com/pics/brumbyPoster.jpg

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

A mixed set of standards probably wont be a brilliant color match.

Standards Porthole wide open on a Red & worse on a P+S adapter, that's why they are cheaper than Super Speeds.

Stopped down T2.8-4 both Standards & Super speeds will perform very well, it's a personal thing I prefer the super speeds but many others prefer the standards.

Stephen

Thank you everyone for the amazing well thought out and thorough replies. This is more than I hoped for....

There is one questions I havnt had answered yet. What are your professional opinions on Standard Speeds vs Super Speeds.

1) Do they color match? (in the case that I might have to mix and match)

2) Are Standards as good as supers but just lack a stop?

(A stop that I read is fairly inferior to the rest of the lense performance.)

My sincere thanks again

[James T Mather]

I have standards and find them sharp as a tack wide open where as Superspeeds I tend to find pretty soft prior to 2.8.

The portholing is quite subtle and generally visible only if shooting something like a flat wall with even illumination across it. That not to say it's not there but is is a pretty invisible optical issue under most shooting conditions. (Unless you have a Kubrick like fetish for white evenly illuminated rooms - in which case light it up to 2.8/4 and it disappears completely.)

[Van Royko]

Well once again, I must express my sincerest thanks to the members of the forum for helping me so much with making an informed decision.

If there is such thing as karmic points you guys are in for a bonus!