Dsmc..

[Jannard]

The details of the RED DSMC (Digital Still & Motion Camera) will be announced at the end of this year.

Given the announcements and release of still cameras from "others" that now shoot video, RED is excited to enter this game. From our vantage point, it is a lot easier to enter the still market from a motion background than visa-versa. The biggest issue that needs to be solved by the still capture group is skew... slow read-reset of CMOS imagers. This "typical" CMOS issue shows itself by moving the camera during motion capture. It is seen as "jelly movement". Red has overcome this issue with a rapid read-reset CMOS sensor program. The Monstro Mysterium sensor is the fastest read-reset CMOS known to man enjoying the same motion characteristics as a film camera.

Jim

http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/rr134/jamesmel9/?action=view&current=DSC_0012.flv

[Thomas Koch]

What's that link for? Made me sign up to photobucket, yet still nothing. Just saw the 5DMkII and while I was going to jump on that, the announcement of the DSMC has made me wait. Plus all my money is going to you for 3208!

[Jannard]

Not sure what happened to the link. I'll check.

Jim

[Brandon Fraley]

What's that link for? Made me sign up to photobucket, yet still nothing.

same here

[Jannard]

Try this one...

http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/rr134/jamesmel9/?action=view&current=DSC_0012.flv

This should do it. It is unfortunate that many will actually believe that "standard" CMOS sensors can do motion effectively. When the 1080P "other" camera is released, this should be the 1st test performed.

Jim

[Brandon Fraley]

holy shnikeys! that's insane! the cats at DVXuser are not gunna be happy when they see that :(

EDIT: nevermind, I'm behind the times. they've already posted footage and dealt with the disappointment lol

[Michael Carn]

Hi Jim,

had a photographer from the Age in Melbourne check out our Red Ones for photo/video combo. Not too practical...There's a growing push from their paper for them to be multimedia journos and deliver both assets - stills and video - to the papers/websites. This multi-skilling push will only get stronger as online takes more and more eyeballs from the papers. Just wanted to say their looking for solutions now.

Thanks for all the hard work.

cheers,
Michael

[dudeman]

What's that link for? wait.

The link was an example of the Nikon D90's "jello shot"-i.e.-massive rolling shutter.

[10s]

Jim you really know how to torment us! Can you tell us if the camera will be good enough to turn out 1080P video?...c'mon, toss us a crumb ;)

[Gunleik Groven]

I knew it. These cameras would make my RED valueless.
Can you have this in build 17? Please?

[Jannard]

I have to say that I am very surprised that these "big guys" would release a camera that shoots "motion" with this kind of defect. It sounds really good on paper, but many will actually buy these cameras and believe that you can shoot motion with them.

Jim

[Jannard]

Jim you really know how to torment us! Can you tell us if the camera will be good enough to turn out 1080P video?...c'mon, toss us a crumb ;)

If we can't meaningfully move something forward... we won't do it.

Jim

[10s]

If we can't meaningfully move something forward... we won't do it.

Jim

yes, of course, that's a given..... but this is still cruel....this must be like doing time in the slammer, waiting, tick tock tick tock... ;)

[Brook Willard]

I always wondered if this was going to be a problem with the recorded image on these cameras. It's always been a killer on "live view" on my D300... it's a bummer to see that it translated into their recording on the D90. Glad to hear the still cameras won't be like that...

[Jannard]

I always wondered if this was going to be a problem with the recorded image on these cameras. It's always been a killer on "live view" on my D300... it's a bummer to see that it translated into their recording on the D90. Glad to hear the still cameras won't be like that...

Imagine what you have always dreamed of... :-)

Jim

[Andrew Walker]

For me I'll wait as long as it takes for the DSMC Red camera to come out before I upgrade from my 40D. Plus I need to wear the shutter into the ground doing timelapse on that one anyway to feel right about buying another camera. Really looking forward to this years NAB.

[Brad Olsen]

Imagine what you have always dreamed of... :-)

Jim

Okay, so you're saying I shouldn't get a Scarlet... :P

[Jannard]

Okay, so your saying I shouldn't get a Scarlet... :P

Completely different cameras...

Jim

[Lars Xang]

You guys need to watch the video samples on DPREVIEW.COM! I cannot believe Canon is using these as marketing materials.

The video looks very over-sharpened with horrible colorimetry - almost like HD cell phone video!! and I can see the same wobble wobble that the Nikon has.

Thank you Jim for doing this right. It is very clear that the Canon Still division does not talk to the Canon Video division.

[Jannard]

I haven't been this embarrassed for Canon since the T-1. Wow.

Jim

[Brad Olsen]

Completely different cameras...

Jim

Interesting, can you give me a detailed breakdown of their differences? You know tell me all the specs of the DSMC?

NO?!!!

I know, I know, I'll wait until the big announcement :( Then decide which camera is right for me. I'm thinking it's still the Scarlet...

[Jannard]

You will have plenty of time after the announcement of the DSCM and the release of Scarlet to decide what you want to do. My bet is that you will want both... :-)

Jim

[Shawn Nelson]

Jim, you remind me of William Wallace in Braveheart when he rides on to the field of battle and consults with his friends and they ask him 'what are you going to do?' and he replies 'I'm going to pick a fight'. :-)

I have no doubt you can make an amazing DSLR, I'm really curious how you solve the lens mount issue. My guess is you'll make it completely interchangeable, perhaps defaulting to a 'Red mount' and then alternately taking in Nikon, Canon EF, etc. But can you do good autofocus? People have so much invested in glass that binds them to Nikon or Canon. You must free them! :-D

[Brad Olsen]

My bet is that you will want both... :-)

Jim

Oh REALLY?!!! And I suppose you'd like me to buy a few RED Ones and Epics too? Well, done and done...

Granted, there is actually a difference between wanting and buying... I'm sure I'll want both, we'll see what the budget says I can afford. At least one of them, maybe 5 of each of the 4 REDs and all the accessories if I win the lottery :-)

[peter roehsler]

My bet is that you will want both... :-)

Jim

... afraid so, and Epic and MONSTRO and RED XYZ in 20XX ... :-)

Peter
(waiting patiently (???) for cinemas in Austria to switch to 4K)

[Jannard]

Jim, you remind me of William Wallace in Braveheart when he rides on to the field of battle and consults with his friends and they ask him 'what are you going to do?' and he replies 'I'm going to pick a fight'. :-)

I have no doubt you can make an amazing DSLR, I'm really curious how you solve the lens mount issue. My guess is you'll make it completely interchangeable, perhaps defaulting to a 'Red mount' and then alternately taking in Nikon, Canon EF, etc. But can you do good autofocus? People have so much invested in glass that binds them to Nikon or Canon. You must free them! :-D

hehe... you can't even imagine what we will unleash. :-)

Jim

[Brook Willard]

Jim, I want to be on vacation with my still camera and see that one cool shot that I'd totally get if I had the right equipment. Wouldn't that be a nice shot for the reel? Wouldn't that be some good stock footage? Boy, I want to save this shot for later so I can remember it at some point in ten years. I want to roll on it with the still camera, get the shot with the DR and general look and resolution of a "real" [4K, 5K] camera without futzing with a real camera... and do it all without security getting angry or the girlfriend noticing that I'm working on vacation. :)

[Lars Xang]

I haven't been this embarrassed for Canon since the T-1. Wow.

Jim

I am actually relieved a little bit Jim. This "release" from Canon is going to make the wait for the DSMC much more rewarding.

The first thing I ever saw from the RED ONE prototype was STILL images of a wrist watch that rivaled Canon's Mark II.

When I first heard about the DSMC, I remembered back to those images and it gave me confidence that you are going to get this right; both the STILL part and the MOVIE part.

[Jason Ing]

Now the trick is the choosing the best timing to sell my 40D.

Jim, are you getting into the lens dept. yet with the DSMC? Can I keep my Canon L glasses for now? :)

[Jonas Hed]

This reminds me of a couple of years ago when I thought "hey DSLR's got better resolution, DOF and DR than my crappy HDV-cam. Maybe I could modify one and make it a movie cam out of it." But back then I was not aware about the sensors limitations and reset-times etc. silly me :innocent:

Always been the "even-if-its-on-the-market-I-will-make-it-myself-kinda-guy" I really admire and support RED and your ideas. I wonder when I will stop hearing people laugh and say: Your invention can't be any good because you are not a proffesional engineer/craftsman/or whatever. :usd:

Well maybe I feel that RED is the company for me because of the philosophy, creative and innovative thinking. It's the way I want it.

Creative problems are solved by technical solutions and vice verse, this is a good philosophy for an inventor in my opinion.

Enough of my ramblings, I get excited thats all.
Keep your spirits up RED-team! You are doing the absolute right thing!

/A happy Swede

[Harrison Diamond]

You will have plenty of time after the announcement of the DSCM and the release of Scarlet to decide what you want to do. My bet is that you will want both... :-)

Jim

The funny thing is, we don't have to agree to the bet for you to win, assuming you wanted us to bet $3000 for the scarlet and the TBA price of the DSMC :biggrin:

From here on out for me, I'll give myself the option of buying one last Nikon body and maybe a lens or two before the year is out. Then it's save my pennies for DSMC. I've already got my Scarlet fund just about ready to go.

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

To me a stills SLR is for stills and a video camera is for video just like a cellphone is to make calls and a camera is to take pictures.

Thst is my personal opinion.

But I just don't see why people are making a big hoo haa about these cameras having video? It is kind of funny my first digital camera was a Sony DSC P32, it had video functions and recorded 640 x 480. Which did not bother me as I owned a seperate video camera. I'm not that guy that wants it all rolled into one device.

Again I'm not pissing on anyones battery I just want to know why the sudden rush to have video on DSLR's? Why not have a seperate camera ie Scarlet to do the job properly?

[Jannard]

To me a stills SLR is for stills and a video camera is for video just like a cellphone is to make calls and a camera is to take pictures.

Thst is my personal opinion.

But I just don't see why people are making a big hoo haa about these cameras having video? It is kind of funny my first digital camera was a Sony DSC P32, it had video functions and recorded 640 x 480. Which did not bother me as I owned a seperate video camera. I'm not that guy that wants it all rolled into one device.

Again I'm not pissing on anyones battery I just want to know why the sudden rush to have video on DSLR's? Why not have a seperate camera ie Scarlet to do the job properly?

At some point motion will converge with stills... just not yet.

Jim

[walter]

I have no doubt you can make an amazing DSLR, I'm really curious how you solve the lens mount issue. My guess is you'll make it completely interchangeable, perhaps defaulting to a 'Red mount' and then alternately taking in Nikon, Canon EF, etc. But can you do good autofocus? People have so much invested in glass that binds them to Nikon or Canon. You must free them! :-D

I'm really curious about the lens issue too. It seems to me that a mirror and shutter are kind of silly in a video camera, which could mean rangefinder sized lenses. That might even give you enough room to add canon/nikon/pentax autofocus adapters.

Anyway I'll just have to wait and see. I'm hoping for something revolutionary, but within my budget.

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

At some point motion will converge with stills... just not yet.

Jim

No doubt.

Im just wondering why? Is it because it sells more cameras to people ie a business decision? Is that what people want it and you are making sure you give the best before everyone else at a better price?


Honest questions. :bleh:

[David Wesemann]

Hi Jim,

glad to catch you on a talkative day...

from the first post I gather that the dsmc will be equipped with the monstro (i. e. RED's 3rd generation sensor)

sorry about the endless 'reading between the lines', but there's nothing left for us to do except waiting (and hoping, but you guys have made this side of waiting pretty unexciting in the past...)

[Gunleik Groven]

I made two bets at IBC
THE FCS/RAW workflow would be demoed
RAW editing in iMovie (most likely with baked metadata) when Scarlet is released.
I'll add hybridcam solutions in iPhoto within a year, with limited RAW controlls.

@ IBC there were REDs all over the show floors and everyone were eager to demo their workflows in progress.

@ NAB this will pretty much be... eh... resolved... I guess.

[BobSimon]

I went to buy a D90. It was sold out and there is a long waiting list at $1300 for body alone. This item is selling faster than a hot cake in stores.
The salesman mentioned the new Sony 28MP camera in the pipeline, with live view and video without skew. I forgot if he mentioned full frame.
I would like to know when the DSMC will be released and what will be the price for body and what lenses will it use?

[Pawel Achtel]

I have to say that I am very surprised that these "big guys" would release a camera that shoots "motion" with this kind of defect. It sounds really good on paper, but many will actually buy these cameras and believe that you can shoot motion with them.

Jim

That's what warranty is for, isn't it? :ranting2:

[Mark Toia]

I'm a little worried too Jim.

Will this program make my 4 RED's, My proposed 4 Scarlets and 4 Epics and all my PL mounted, RED, Cooke, Arri and Ziess lenses worthless when everyone starts running around shooting great TV content, AD's etc in 1080p from a relatively cheap stills SLR...

I know the worlds changing and RED has to chase or lead the game, But it does make you think twice about purchasing a camera package that you probably wont need in 12 months time ...... unless your shooting a movie.
A lot of us have invested big in RED and are now thinking not too.
My 35mm Arri's lasted 8 to 10 years before it got retired into the back room courtesy of you guys.

Just thinking out loud mate.

Still a RED FAN & Still love ya work.

But would love a future proof response..... please.:umm:

[PaulClements]

...The Monstro Mysterium sensor is the fastest read-reset CMOS known to man enjoying the same motion characteristics as a film camera.

Jim

Hi Jim, this is interesting to hear and very welcome. Will the new sensor therefore remedy the problems with the standard mysterium sensor such as skew, strobing and cutting of flashes of light between frames? How does the read-reset effect motion characteristics if any?

Do you have any idea when you will be posting any test footage illustrating the sensors ability to handle those things the original sensor has had issues with?

Thanks

Paul

[fde101]

Stills off the 5DmkII look nice.

I think we need to take the "movie mode" of these new cameras as just the selling gimmics that they are -- ignore that feature and judge the cameras on their capabilities for still images. The 5DmkII looks like it has some really nice capabilities.

I like Canon's cameras. I like my 30D, 1DmkII, XH A1 -- I do plan on picking up a Scarlet sometime next year (probably mid to late in the year, since I need a computer that can handle the footage first... come on RED, at least a working PPC Mac build of RED Cine... please... I could buy a Scarlet sooner...).

I'm curious to see what RED comes up with here with this DSMC. EVF or some other prank like that and it will be a curiosity for my part, but give it a real optical viewfinder and interchangeable lenses (support for my Canon lenses would be nice), keep the price reasonable, and get it close enough to a real DSLR for still mode...

I guess we find out in a few months.

If anyone can do this and do it right, I suspect RED would be the company to do it.

[Jonathon Laing]

Jim do you think after the dslr, you'll make another camera for the soccer mums? :P Kinda like what your've done with scarlet. I mean, why not?

[Yannick Hagman]

I really think a camera is the worst investment if you buy it currently, if you don't have jobs to ammortize it in half a year. I tend to buy only stuff that lasts longer than 10 years with my small money.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Hi Jim, this is interesting to hear and very welcome. Will the new sensor therefore remedy the problems with the standard mysterium sensor such as skew, strobing and cutting of flashes of light between frames? How does the read-reset effect motion characteristics if any?

Do you have any idea when you will be posting any test footage illustrating the sensors ability to handle those things the original sensor has had issues with?

Thanks

Paul

Paul,

You are absolutely right.

I would like to add that RED has pretty ambitious program for the future products.

But some more very important question could arise:

1. How RED is going to deal with the issues that Paul mentioned in this tread (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=286706&postcount=41)?

2. How RED is going to deal with a workflow issues that Finner mentioned in his thing number (2) ? (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18952)

Let's say RED is daily improving in development of a brand new CMOS sensors in a different sizes, 5K, 4K, 3K-2/3 inch,

DSLR type,... etc and that's one important thing of the game.

The another important thing is that too many guys would like to join RED digital cinema revolution but all carrying a different

type of lenses (Arri PL, Panavision PL, Nikon F, Canon EOS, Canon FD, Leica-R , Leica-M, Contax, BNC-R Mount...etc...).

For example some more question in that way:

- With what type of a lens mount RED is going to enter DSMC

(another acronym for DSLR type of HD+++movie acquisition) market?

- Canon EOS? (via Birger's, Alesniak's or ET's type of mount)

- Nikon AF? (via Birger mount, ...)

- Olympus Four/Thirds? (via unknown third party mount)

- Is RED going to make their own sort of DSLR AF lenses and mount?

(would make a situation that could increase size of its developer team and also would rise overall company's costs)

- Is RED going to make even more (hardware/software) partnerships in the future with more third parties

to secure it's own place just to stay a bit longer competitive on the market (!?).

Also we should not forget that a big guys like Canon, Nikon, Sony, Leica - Panasonic, Sigma, Casio, Olympus, Samsung, etc...

would increase a development sources in the case that DSLR-DSMC market is growing.

In that case all of them would be in a pretty tough competition (like always),

but actually RED would face much more competition than ever before.

Everybody want to have a "money cow"!

Has RED enough "weapons", "munition" and money (financial sources) to join this battle?

[Benni Diez]

Jim do you think after the dslr, you'll make another camera for the soccer mums? :P Kinda like what your've done with scarlet. I mean, why not?

Soccer moms are already getting extremely interested in DSLR, with all the hype around the D90 and billboards popping up everywhere. It's the new s**t around.

People are also increasingly pissed off by all those 12mpx and up pocket cams that still deliver crappy images.

When DSMC comes out the world will be eagerly waiting! And DSLRs will have become a lot cheaper due to high demand. Which well be good for us, maybe not as good for Jim. :sarcasm:

[Sander de Regt]

Soccer moms are so yesterday's news. If you really want to be cool, you'll want to be a hockey mom.
Sorry for the O.T.

[Michael Schrengohst]

Other things to think about for still cameras.
360 panos. Please look at this site.

http://360precision.com/360/360.cfm

This is what I do with this head.

http://www.cuial.com/mhsrv_panos/PANO_02/PANO_02.html

[Yannick Hagman]

I have only seen non moving tripod-shots so far.

[number6]

Some of the comments here started me thinking..."Are my RED Ones on the verge of becoming outdated? Will the various future camera releases mean that I will no longer oun the Kings of the Hill?

After some thought I came to the conclusion that everything is fine and the world is right.

Because even with the release of Scarlet and Epic, I can upgrade my sensor and essentially put out the same quality image, sensor-wise as the Epic, and hopefully with a board adjustment, frame-speed-wise as well. And even though the Dsmc will overshadow my RED Ones in some manner or another when it is released, will that negatively affect MY niche?

Probably not because I will be able to shoot to MY standards with the upgradeable cameras I oun.

So, Fearless ******, go ahead and release as you please. I've got what I want and I have it NOW!

[BobSimon]

In the DSLR Killer thread, somebody has written: " The new DSMC will be cheaper than Nikon. Instead of $1200 for D90 body, DSMC body would be $500. (I believe DSMC will be a lower priced knockoff of D90.) "

is this true? The new DSMC is a cheaper version of D90, for $500?
If true, that would be wonderful. The D90 is a fantastic camera at $1300.
I would wait for the $500 DSMC.

what does DSMC mean?
PS: the D90 doesnot have a 35mm sensor.

[Lexicon]

In the DSLR Killer thread, somebody has written: " The new DSMC will be cheaper than Nikon. Instead of $1200 for D90 body, DSMC body would be $500. (I believe DSMC will be a lower priced knockoff of D90.) "

is this true? The new DSMC is a cheaper version of D90, for $500?
If true, that would be wonderful. The D90 is a fantastic camera at $1300.
I would wait for the $500 DSMC.

what does DSMC mean?
PS: the D90 doesnot have a 35mm sensor.

Unless it comes from someone at RED, it's just speculation or FUD. The camera is aimed squarely at professionals (and those who can afford nice gear) so the D90 isn't even in the same weight class.

[swardo]

I just want to know why the sudden rush to have video on DSLR's? Why not have a seperate camera ie Scarlet to do the job properly?
sudden rush? I've been asking for it for 5 years. For photojournalism applications this type of camera is vital and extremely beneficial. The AP is going to eat it up.

I shoot smalltime action sports videos but also shoot stills for various magazines. For the last several years I've been using a custom-made tripod mount that allows me to shoot. While this works there are several problems with it. The biggest being that you have to sacrifice one or the other so i end up doing a lot of cropping that shouldn't be needed. The amount of equipment is another factor. Most of my work is done abroad and it's becoming an ever increasing pain to travel with 2 complete rigs.

[James Brundige]

The details of the RED DSMC (Digital Still & Motion Camera) will be announced at the end of this year.

The Monstro Mysterium sensor is the fastest read-reset CMOS known to man enjoying the same motion characteristics as a film camera.

Jim

http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/rr134/jamesmel9/?action=view&current=DSC_0012.flv

I spent years hauling around a Nikon and an Arri SR and a tape recorder. Up big mountains, down dangerous rivers, deserts, ice caps. I am thrilled that I will soon be able to carry one system (with a backup) and get all the goods I need. This is so exciting. But without a hint about lensing and format, Jim, you are the biggest tease in the world.

After waiting a year for my Red, I suppose I will survive another few months. Any crumbs in the meantime would be appreciated.

[Peter Majtan]

Jim, I have said this before and I will say it again:

I truly hope that the way forward does not only mean ever higher resolution (amongst other things). Already managing 4K-RAW files is stretching majority of the storage solutions (both on-line and backup) most of us have right now. There is definitely place for camera with ever larger sensors and ever higher resolution. But consider this - more then 90% of current movies worldwide are finished in 2K and no-one complains about the resolution...

What I am trying to say is that there is also a huge market for 2K delivery (currently addressed by You with Scarlet). What will be nice is to see Mysterium X and/or Monstro in S35/F35 size with "only" 3K-RAW resolution destined for pristine 2K deliveries. That particular niche between Scarlet & Red One... Camera that is not "pocket", offers interchangeable lens mounts and priced under $10K. Not only this is doable, but very much desirable...

So besides of focusing on higher resolution (which is of course OK) I (for one) would like to see Your sensor program also focused on higher DR and image quality in the lower resolutions...

Just my two pesos...

:) Peter

[Nicholaus James]

I'm going to assume that this camera will finally put an end to the 2 fields of "wedding photographer" and "wedding videographer." Brides will just hire a "wedding imagery specialists," to capture their wedding.

[androbot2084]

One thing I do not like about the Canon 5d II is that you pay $2600 and it only shoots 30 frames per second. Can shooting at 30 frames per second be considered high definition?

[fde101]

I'd call 30fps high-def if it is progressive-scanned rather than interlaced, and I think this is?

I commonly keep my XH A1 set to 30F mode.

[androbot2084]

Then by that logic you can call 480p high definition as long as it is shot at 120 frames per second. And if you have some kid whip panning the camera only 480p120 will be considered real high definition as the other high definition formats will turn into a blurry mess.

[Eric Lange]

I’ve seen four of the movie clips from the Canon 5D Mark II, and it does seem conspicuous of the streams I have see it appears that the camera is statically locked down very steadily indeed. It appears that when the subject moves that there is a bit more blur than one would expect, but that may be a compression artifact of the web deliver mechanism. Therefore its not possible to detect any skew/jelly wobble. I am impressed by the basic look of an image that comes from the larger area of the sensor, I think the Canon clips are desperately trying to show a cinematic style shallow depth of field.

Has anybody seen any JELLY on the 5D MII yet?

I like the D-90 Jelly clip it makes everything look like the early Betty-Boop cartoons, cute!

[reality]

I'm not impressed by the 5D video. It looks like 720p upsampled and sharpened. Not pleasing at all and kinda crunchy looking.

[Sarah C.]

I'm surprised there "appears" to be more jelly in these clips than what my old Sony point-n-shoot pocket camera does, but then it(my ps camera) has other non-pro issues anyway...

~Sarah

[Shaocaholica]

One thing I do not like about the Canon 5d II is that you pay $2600 and it only shoots 30 frames per second. Can shooting at 30 frames per second be considered high definition?

Framerate and resolution are 2 different things. Don't try to glue them together.

[Eric Lange]

I'm not impressed by the 5D video. It looks like 720p upsampled and sharpened. Not pleasing at all and kinda crunchy looking.

I give you that. But so far its much more pleasing to me at least than my Sony HDV 1080i/Mini DV due to the small sensor on the Sony giving an almost total depth of field and looking very video like. My main interest in the Canon 5D mark II is the 21MP pixels for applications we develop for 3d capture systems/software. If the “movie” dynamic imagery is reasonably stable then we can employ it for real time face capture and character movement. I like the concept that on the Canon you can intersperse high res shots while you “rolling” although it leaves one second gaps in the footage. I/we are mainly exploring the FX angles, but if the images are stable it might find terrific utility for 3d capture in Video Games content development.

I/we are just as eager to get our hands on the DSMC as it solves a lot technical problems for us at potentially a tenth of the price for what we have to do. [We are currently designing more advanced systems around RED ONE and Leaf digital backs, would be nice to eliminate the redundancy for our applications]

So “crunchy” images with a shallow depth of field may characterize this type of image capture, (hopefully without jelly).

The video clips I have seen are of the girl looking at the bridge, the squirrel, the bird, the cars and the girl in the night time street, admittedly at a lower res than the original.

[Fredrik Harreschou]

One thing I do not like about the Canon 5d II is that you pay $2600 and it only shoots 30 frames per second. Can shooting at 30 frames per second be considered high definition?

High definition is usually defined by spatial resolution, not temporal. The RED ONE shoots 30 fps at 4k. And thats high definition for most people ;)

[reality]

I give you that. But so far its much more pleasing to me at least than my Sony HDV 1080i/Mini DV due to the small sensor on the Sony giving an almost total depth of field and looking very video like.

Absolutely, but I guess I was expecting better quality.

[arun]

5D Mark 11 not that much pretty or better than D90 beacouse it dsn't have 24fps... (only 30fps) and without 24fps its usless with 1080p.. its shame for canon and if they started with 24p they hav to stop there hd camcorder busniess lol ....so jimm.... i have one humble request just dont say to wait for morethan 3 or 4 months to get DSMC after announcement....

[Eric Lange]

Absolutely, but I guess I was expecting better quality.


We can always hope…my expectations are a little lower but we are very much hoping for minimal Jelly/skew which also may be a far too high expectation.

We like the concept that we can gather short dynamic sequences, using our own lenses, with shallow depth field with large spatial sensor and a half decent (ish) dynamic range. Other than RED ONE, we would otherwise be stuck using industrial cameras that have very stable imagery but looks frankly very industrial. The color table/compression/dynamic range seems a bit nicer on the Canon 5D MII than a nasty industrial camera (even when the industrial camera costs $10k+).

Never the less a DSMC type camera is desperately needed.

[Buck Forester]

5D Mark 11 not that much pretty or better than D90 beacouse it dsn't have 24fps... (only 30fps) and without 24fps its usless with 1080p.. its shame for canon and if they started with 24p they hav to stop there hd camcorder busniess lol ....so jimm.... i have one humble request just dont say to wait for morethan 3 or 4 months to get DSMC after announcement....

Why do you say it's useless with 30p and not 24p?

[David Dennis]

In the DSLR Killer thread, somebody has written: " The new DSMC will be cheaper than Nikon. Instead of $1200 for D90 body, DSMC body would be $500. (I believe DSMC will be a lower priced knockoff of D90.) "

is this true? The new DSMC is a cheaper version of D90, for $500?
If true, that would be wonderful. The D90 is a fantastic camera at $1300.
I would wait for the $500 DSMC.


That message was really strange and I would not give it any kind of credibility. Jim may have contacts with manufacturers in China but I would picture him flying Tourist Class Commercial(*) before he would put out a product that was not designed with the fully professional services of the RED Team.

Jim generally builds cameras he wants to own. That means nothing cheap. He has already mentioned a metal body. I would expect his price point to be from D300-D700 territory - that is, $2,000-3,000. He's going to build something massively more capable than either camera, but it will be at a fair price, not an excessively low one.

Like others, I'm still trying to figure out how it's differentiated from Scarlet or even RED ONE but like most people on this list, if Jim builds it, I'd like one.

D

(*) Jim owns a Falcon Jet, so you can guess the odds of him flying on any airline. It's actually pretty cost effective to fly as long as he brings his team along.

[Jerrod Cordell]

Jim, you remind me of William Wallace in Braveheart when he rides on to the field of battle and consults with his friends and they ask him 'what are you going to do?' and he replies 'I'm going to pick a fight'. :-)

After reading this, I just had to make this. Jim, this should totally be your new avatar. :)

FREEDOM!

[Andrew M.]

5D Mark 11 not that much pretty or better than D90 beacouse it dsn't have 24fps... (only 30fps) and without 24fps its usless with 1080p.. its shame for canon and if they started with 24p they hav to stop there hd camcorder busniess lol ....so jimm.... i have one humble request just dont say to wait for morethan 3 or 4 months to get DSMC after announcement....


Arguing about 24p or 30p is pointless, just go and check clips 5D is producing.
My cable HDTV that is 3 times compressed on top of compression is much better.
When picture is static on 5D, it is not bad, but as soon as there is any movement, the resolution drops to 16 pixels per sq inch or so. I think it is the choice of codec, low end MPG4 format. Any better codec will blew up the CPU on 5D I guess.

[Obin Olson]

can't wait to get that new sensor in our red !

[arun]

Nothing can do with 1080p with 30fps, yaa ofcourse u can shot some home functions etc thats al (only for personal usage) infact its absolutely useless for indifilm makers...

[P Andersson]

Try this one...

http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/rr134/jamesmel9/?action=view&current=DSC_0012.flv

This should do it. It is unfortunate that many will actually believe that "standard" CMOS sensors can do motion effectively. When the 1080P "other" camera is released, this should be the 1st test performed.

Jim

might this be what u asked for

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8ILR7uf4GM

looks like skew to me

(edit, already posted http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19160)

[Sanjin Jukic]

I cannot believe that some people can see an original movie quality through the heavy youtube compression.

Very strange.

Or could be that some of them are fans of the other brand...

Also could be that I'm a blind :) :help: .

[Andrew M.]

I cannot believe that some people can see an original movie quality through the heavy youtube compression.

Very strange.

Or could be that some of them are fans of the other brand...

Also could be that I'm a blind :) :help: .

Canon has some HD 5D demo clips on the jp website.
They use HD flash to play it, well maybe Adobe HD flash is totaly compressed than, but I didn't see such bad compression on Adobe website HD 1080 flash demos.

Compare HD flash demos from Adobe website and Canon 5D demos on jp website.

Day and night difference.
Maybe Adobe demo was done from RED 4K source:-)

[androbot2084]

Jim is promising higher framerates as well as higher resolution for his DSMC camera so it seems that his camera would be the logical choice.

[Daniel Browning]

I truly hope that the way forward does not only mean ever higher resolution (amongst other things). Already managing 4K-RAW files is stretching majority of the storage solutions (both on-line and backup) most of us have right now.


As long as Intel, Seagate, etc. continue to advance computer technology, I see no reason for RED to slow down. If you can't afford additional computer gear (even as prices drop precipitously), then just downsample the original material to something you can handle.



I (for one) would like to see Your sensor program also focused on higher DR and image quality in the lower resolutions.


You can always get better "image quality" in lower resolutions by just resampling the larger resolutions in post. It adds a delay to your post-production, but it's the only way to let the rest of us (with faster, newer gear) get the benefit of RED's new tech.

For dynamic range, yes, we'd all like to see an improvement there. However, increasing resolution has proven to be a good way to increase dynamic range. Not at the pixel level, where uninformed product reviews are done, but at the image level, where the differences actually matter. (Due to the fact that noise adds in quadrature, read noise tends to scale with pixel size, and Agranov's Law.)

I'm looking forward to when all the high tech has trickled down from digicams to DSLR cameras. Quantum efficiency, read noise, resolution, etc. are all many times better in 1/1.7" sensors (per area). QE is starting to catch up now that DSLR cameras are finally getting gapless microlenses (although not on the 5Dm2 yet).

[Peter Majtan]

Daniel, You clearly have not worked with Red One yet, at least not on a prolongate basis... I do happen to have the latest Apple gear and actual 4x4Gb fiber-optic storage, but this is not about what You can afford. That is a very lame justification...

Just look at Apple and the OS-X. Sure You could keep bringing in ever more features and the "latest" gear handles the OS without a problem. But even they woke up and realize that the code is quite unnecessarily heavy and in need of optimization. This is why Snow Leopard (10.6) is focusing primarily on OS optimization and code streamlining, instead of packing in another ton of features...

Also note that I have clearly said "also" when referring to their focus. In no way I am trying to say that what ever plans have been announced are useless or futile... As soon as Epic is out we will trade-in our Red One and I am pretty sure I will be getting the DSMC as soon as it is out as well... Jim & his team is absolutely correct in pushing further the image resolution and quality...

What I am trying to say is that for vast majority of future RED owners even Red One is overkill when it comes to resolution. And I am not talking about the current Red One owners (maybe few) - as they/we are very much after the higher-end workflows. I am talking about all the Scarlet users who will outnumber Red One at least 10:1 within the first year...

While we have several projects that do benefit from the higher resolutions, majority of our project will go through 2K DI. Sure You get a great image downscaling the 4K to 2K, but a the cost of huge storage requirements for both online and off-line (backup). You can fill a 1TB in a week of shooting quite easily, in our case even faster as we shoot stereo with two Red Ones...

Problem with Red One is that to go down to 3K You loose Your wide angles due to sensor crop. Especially for independent feature film projects on tighter budgets you will benefit from being able to shoot 3K. And the storage requirement is not 25% less as it would seem on the first glance. We are talking almost 50% reduction for storage, time required to handle the data, backup and of course image processing to name a few focus points in one's workflow...

There is definitely market for ~3K-RAW camera with Mysterium X / Monstro at S35 size with interchangeable lens mounts. It will fill the gap between Scarlet and Red One and it will nicely compliment Scarlet-based projects...

This is why I have said I would like to see the RED sensor program ALSO focused on higher DR and image quality in the lower resolutions - specifically the same 3K resolution Scarlet is going to have. This way You would not need to develop any new EPB's and associated electronics...

Rant Off... :)

[Daniel Browning]

You clearly have not worked with Red One yet...


I keep stopping by to use yours, but you're never home; off shooting in some mountains somewhere. I'm only using about ten terabytes of video storage right now, but I have some appreciation for the hassle of managing hundreds of terabytes.


This is why I have said I would like to see the RED sensor program ALSO focused on higher DR and image quality in the lower resolutions - specifically the same 3K resolution Scarlet is going to have. This way You would not need to develop any new EPB's and associated electronics...


It's better to use more (and better) compression than to reduce resolution. By the time you resample to the final resolution, any additional compression artifacts disappear.

So if RED provides a 28 MB/s mode for Monstro, even at 5K, it will allow for the same number of disk arrays per hour/week as you're using now. In fact, I bet that RED could invent a 14 MB/s 4K mode that would be sufficient for your 2K DCI.

[BobSimon]

I looked at the videos on this link:
http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/eos5dm2/02.html
VeryGood.
My local dealer says people are already calling in orders for future delivery.
But, I will wait for the 28MP offer from Sony and whatever Panasonic is bringing out for Christmas.
The age of camcorders have ended.

I am still curious: what does DSMC stand for?

[Charles Angus]

DSMC is digital stills motion camera, I believe.

[Hugues Wisniewski]

I have to say that I am very surprised that these "big guys" would release a camera that shoots "motion" with this kind of defect. It sounds really good on paper, but many will actually buy these cameras and believe that you can shoot motion with them.

Jim

With a powerful marketing you can sell a lot of crap and make people believe they bought the best product in the world. It works for software, computers, movies and even politics.

So my question Jim, is how will you market this new DSLR? Will we see ads on TV? In newspapers? On Oakley ads like "shot on Red"?
There's a good chance that people like me, reading this forum will buy it and show it around and this will drag traction to your site, but will that be enough?
Selling a professional cinema camera is one thing because the market is small and people know where to find you. But will the current marketing model be enough for the still camera mass market? Just curious.

[JohnLands]

were do you put the follow focus on this 1080p camera? Were do you mount it to the jib? Were is the remote start stop? How do you watch playback? How do you tell the bond company were shooting with a really cheap and cool still camera that shoots HD. Not gonna happen.

[sander kamp]

Where does everybody see skew and bad image quality? In the few shots I have seen online skew seems to be much less than the D90 and don't forget the RED has skew too.

[Jannard]

Where does everybody see skew and bad image quality? In the few shots I have seen online skew seems to be much less than the D90 and don't forget the RED has skew too.

Since Build 12 we have heard no complaints about skew whatsoever because we enabled the "rapid" in rapid reset. The D90 skew is unbearable because it has a very slow read-reset. My impression is that the Canon will have a similar problem. We have heard that there is quite a bit of scrambling going on inside the "C" about this. But nevertheless, it will become very apparent as soon as the camera ships.

We have yet to see a still camera with a rapid-reset CMOS sensor. That doesn't mean that Canon could have all of a sudden found one, but I would be surprised and would certainly test it out before I bought one. Unless you just want it for stills. In that case, I am comfortable that it is an excellent performer. Most all Canon and Nikon DSLRs perform very well as still cameras these days.

Jim

[Steve Sanacore]

I have to say that I am very surprised that these "big guys" would release a camera that shoots "motion" with this kind of defect. It sounds really good on paper, but many will actually buy these cameras and believe that you can shoot motion with them.

Jim

I can't imagine anyone actually thinking that shooting video with a DSLR like the 5D2 or Nikon D90 would be useful for anything other than home movies. And probably poor even for that.

[Jannard]

I looked at the videos on this link:
http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/eos5dm2/02.html
VeryGood.
My local dealer says people are already calling in orders for future delivery.
But, I will wait for the 28MP offer from Sony and whatever Panasonic is bringing out for Christmas.
The age of camcorders have ended.

I am still curious: what does DSMC stand for?

It seems very interesting to me that every shot is a lock-down shot. The camera is not moving in any sample footage.

Jim

[Jannard]

I can't imagine anyone actually thinking that shooting video with a DSLR like the 5D2 or Nikon D700 would be useful for anything other than home movies. And probably poor even for that.

The D90 is not suitable for home movies with this amount of skew IMHO. The HVX is (and more than just home movies)... as is the DVX. So are many other inexpensive camcorders. We do believe that the day is coming when you can shoot great stills AND motion (DSMC) from the same camera. But a typical slow reset CMOS sensor will not be inside the camera... and that is what is currently inside virtually every DSLR today.

Jim

[Michael Schrengohst]

Most people don't give a crap. I still have to labor everyday with poorly shot footage from DV cameras. I still have to work from 5th generation DVD copies of VHS footage. The D90 to some of these folks would be nivarna. I wish I could wave a magic wand and magically get everyone into a RED trance. I did finish some more spots that I shot on a RED and it was a relief to my eyes. Someday when the client releases them I can show them. Hopefully in a few more weeks. In the meantime I was going over a budget with a small agency, showed them the spots I shot and cut from the RED.
He said that looks great but I want to shoot these with my GL1.....

[Brad Olsen]

He said that looks great but I want to shoot these with my GL1.....

GL1?!!!! NOOO!!!! That's just terrible. What I loved about my DVX was progressive footage, interlace needs to die. You can play back progressive footage on CRTs plus it looks great on all other displays. On the other hand interlace looks awful on anything but a CRT, and it still isn't pretty even then. The HVX is cool cause it eliminated a lot of the crappy miniDV artifacts that plagued the DVX.

But I can't wait for Scarlet and DSMC. I feel extremely privileged to live in this day and age with Jim Jannard who frees us from thinking we have to make sacrifices in quality in the digital world.

[Red47]

okay Jim, you've sold me on the video aspects of the Dsmc but i want to know how well it will perform as a Dslr. as a photographer the video modes on the cameras like the nikon d90 and the canon eos 5d mark 2 are just extras. i want to know if this camera is really going to deliver as a still camera as well. whats going to make the still features excel from a 5dmark 2 or a d700?

[10s]

The D90 has many faults but it's heading in the right direction. So far NO mfg has produced what we have all been asking for: a low cost camera, interchangable lenses, a decent size sensor with the corresponding DOF shallow focus/bokeh, 24fps, 1080P HD, a decent codec-No HDV, etc...

It's amazing no one has stepped up to give us what we want. Yes RED one is great but it cost too much, Scarlet has a fixed lens, the other mfg cameras use small sensors and/or bad codecs... there's a huge prize for the winner who can listen and produce.

Hopefully the RED DSMC camera will fit the bill.

[Paris Remillard]

Since Build 12 we have heard no complaints about skew whatsoever because we enabled the "rapid" in rapid reset.

Jim

Actually... When I got my camera it had Build 15 installed and I've found it quite easy to induce noticeable skew and jello-y footage. Not nearly as bad as these still cameras, but it isn't a non-issue with RED... yet. I know that you guys are on the case and I trust that the X and Monstro sensors will fix the issues. But, in all honesty, and in my opinion, the rolling shutter issues are my only real complaint about my Red One so far. Not trying to be contadictory. Just politely giving my honest thoughts.

[Jannard]

Actually... When I got my camera it had Build 15 installed and I've found it quite easy to induce noticeable skew and jello-y footage. Not nearly as bad as these still cameras, but it isn't a non-issue with RED... yet. I know that you guys are on the case and I trust that the X and Monstro sensors will fix the issues. But, in all honesty, and in my opinion, the rolling shutter issues are my only real complaint about my Red One so far. Not trying to be contadictory. Just politely giving my honest thoughts.

I guess that is fair... inducing skew is possible with the RED ONE. To take it from subjective to objective, our measurements show that the newest DSLRs we have tested, including the D90, have a 5 times longer read-reset time than a RED ONE. Which means it is 5 times more jelly (not useable unless there is no camera movement). And Mysterium-X reduces the time dramatically relative to the RED ONE.

Jim

[Michael Schrengohst]

GL1?!!!! NOOO!!!! That's just terrible. What I loved about my DVX was progressive footage, interlace needs to die. You can play back progressive footage on CRTs plus it looks great on all other displays. On the other hand interlace looks awful on anything but a CRT, and it still isn't pretty even then. The HVX is cool cause it eliminated a lot of the crappy miniDV artifacts that plagued the DVX.

But I can't wait for Scarlet and DSMC. I feel extremely privileged to live in this day and age with Jim Jannard who frees us from thinking we have to make sacrifices in quality in the digital world.

I have an HVX. I only shoot 24p. (OK maybe 30p if it only goes to TV)
I show new clients the difference and they don't know what the hell I am showing them. It's all bottom line.
They have a camera. They shoot a shitty interview and wonder why it does not look and sound as good as the demo i showed them. ??
Wankers - I wish I could say - The gear is a part of the whole. It takes some experience and knowing what can go wrong or what looks
like crap to actually make something halfway decent.
I am looking forward to DSMC - now if Jim and RED could make some affordable daylight balanced lighting kits........

[Mike McCombs]

Jim, do I need to even say it again at this point?

Mike McCombs

mikemccombs@mac.com
mmccombs@samys.com

PS I emailed you back about meeting later this month, I look forward to seeing you.

[ahusain]

I guess that is fair... inducing skew is possible with the RED ONE. To take it from subjective to objective, our measurements show that the newest DSLRs we have tested, including the D90, have a 5 times longer read-reset time than a RED ONE. Which means it is 5 times more jelly (not useable unless there is no camera movement). And Mysterium-X reduces the time dramatically relative to the RED ONE.

Jim


The worse problem is the highly subsampled sensor and the aliasing artifacts that result. Unless all you shoot is fuzzy, low-detail images, that alone makes it unusable for probably all high-quality applications. Red still has no direct competition.

[Sanjin Jukic]

A comparison between RED and Canon 5D Mark II

both at HD(1920x1080) movie size:

1. Alesniak's Canon EOS-RED "dumb" mount with Canon EF 70-300mm DO IS USM @ 300mm & f/22

and

2. Canon 5D Mark II with Canon EF 300mm f/4 USM & Extender EF1.4II.


Also don't forget that RED shoots at 24.4 x 13.7 mm sized Mysterium sensor that is

something in between Nikon DX 1.5 and Canon APS-C 1.6 crop factor from

a full sized 35mm sensor that shoots Canon 5D mark II (36 x 34 mm).

The original movie links for download:

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/RED_canon5DMarkII_02.jpg

Alesniak's test>>>53meg H.264 1080p>>> (http://www.andylesniak.com/movies/red/CanonEF_70-300_DO_IS_USM.mov)

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/RED_canon5DMarkII_03.jpg

Canon 5D MkII test, 276 MB>>> (http://s3.amazonaws.com/movies.dpreview.com/CanonEOS5DMarkII/MVI_5500.MOV)

[BobSimon]

The new cameras are not a threat to RED. These are cheap still cameras that allow people to record the scene with motion and sound along with still pictures. These are not movie cameras. But for consumers this is a great product. I love these new cameras. I put my name in the waiting list with local dealer. I am #392 on the list for Nikon and #278 in list for Canon. I will buy which ever is available first.
I wonder what would the other cameras that are expected before Christmas, look like. According to local dealer Sony will introduce a new 28MP camera with live view and camcorder functions, before Christmas. Panasonic is expected to introduce a similar camera also.

[Sanjin Jukic]

The new cameras are not a threat to RED. These are cheap still cameras that allow people to record the scene with motion and sound along with still pictures. These are not movie cameras. But for consumers this is a great product. I love these new cameras. I put my name in the waiting list with local dealer. I am #392 on the list for Nikon and #278 in list for Canon. I will buy which ever is available first.
I wonder what would the other cameras that are expected before Christmas, look like. According to local dealer Sony will introduce a new 28MP camera with live view and camcorder functions, before Christmas. Panasonic is expected to introduce a similar camera also.


Canon 5D Mark II supposed to be a professional photo DSLR camera as I know well.

[Michael Schrengohst]

I know many photojournalists. They are getting the Nikon as a backup and as a "Hey I can shoot a short video clip to compliment my photos". I have done work for AP that only went to the web. Web size is 320x240 pixels. Shooting on tape I have to run down to a post house that can satellite a feed to Washington. With short video clips already on a card I could easily upload those to a website in less time than feeding a tape and at no cost! It is about $1000 per hour to satellite a feed. The web news video stuff is here today and gone tomorrow. It's disposable but if you were running around as a freelancer covering Hurricane Ike, something like the D90 or the Canon might come in handy. If RED's DSMC can come in at a price point that is justifable, can use either Nikon or Canon lenses then it is a slam dunk.

[P Andersson]

I know many photojournalists. They are getting the Nikon as a backup and as a "Hey I can shoot a short video clip to compliment my photos". I have done work for AP that only went to the web. Web size is 320x240 pixels. Shooting on tape I have to run down to a post house that can satellite a feed to Washington. With short video clips already on a card I could easily upload those to a website in less time than feeding a tape and at no cost! It is about $1000 per hour to satellite a feed. The web news video stuff is here today and gone tomorrow. It's disposable but if you were running around as a freelancer covering Hurricane Ike, something like the D90 or the Canon might come in handy. If RED's DSMC can come in at a price point that is justifable, can use either Nikon or Canon lenses then it is a slam dunk.

very true

[fde101]

The worse problem is the highly subsampled sensor and the aliasing artifacts that result. Unless all you shoot is fuzzy, low-detail images, that alone makes it unusable for probably all high-quality applications. Red still has no direct competition.

Defocus it slightly maybe?

[bongobongo]

One large sensor, 24 * 36 mm
The whole sensor area to be used for Stills as well as full width of the sensor for video 24P, 25P, 30P, 60p ... in 1080, 3K, 4k and eventually 120p in burst mode.

To compete with the small big (Nikon, Canon, not the big big guys like Hasselblad, Phase One) guys in stills mode it has to be 24 * 36... period.
It should produce as good stills as the 5D Mark II will, at least in the 50 6400 ISO range.

Now in order to make it support ONE NEW REMOVABLE ULTRAFAST, ULTRACOMPACT, "LIGHTWEIGHT" GUERILLA RED ZOOM LENS, as well as some fixed RED lenses, more DOF (yes more), why not make it so it optionally uses some smaller part of the 24mm * 36mm sensor ... how much of the sensor... well it would be nice not needing a truck when you move this tool around... why not use an area equal to super35mm, same size as the RED ONE.
I would like to see the RED ultrafast zoomlens for this puppy to be more wide than tele. If compared to 35mm photo, then I would rather have
a 20mm - 150mm lens than a 30 - 200mm lens. For those wanting more tele, then make another zoom or some fixed lenses.

Then we have the best of both worlds....
Full 24 * 36mm sensor size for photography as well as for some 1080, 3k and 4k video and shallow DOF.
Super35mm with support for RED zoom and fixed lenses, not so shallow DOF, RED RAW, ultrafast, compact video beast.
All in one compact unit, with support for different DOF...... then buy RED lenses and/or Canon lenses depending on what you want to shoot.

When in video mode one should be able to choose between RED RAW and another more compact format.

I want it to come with a small sized battery for photography and some video shooting.
For more heavy video then it should be possible to hook up some optional batteries.

If the above for stills then they should also support canon EF lenses as well and if possible both Canon and Nikon lenses. If it supported EF lenses... then many of these lenses has IS (image stabilizer) built in...

AF and MF has to work flawlessly in both stills and video mode.

For stills it need X-sync for those mega studio flashes as well as a flash shoe on top of it.

One high res display where you can zoom in to check focus.
And absolutely mandatory, this display should be flippable so you can actually use it in different shooting situations where your eyes do not have to be right behind the camera (canon wake up). Please let this be an OLED display with antiflare surface so we can use it outside in all weather....

For stills it has to shoot RAW (why not Adobe DNG format), and if possible be able to shoot JPG in parallel.

Full weather sealing..

EVF and no mirror, yes as a photographer tool I want an EVF so I CAN shoot stills and rest the
camera against my head and see what I shoot..... MANDATORY as well.

100% coverage in EVF as well as flippable display.

A lightweight handle so you can hold it in your hands when shooting below your hips, standing still, walking or running (canon do you read this).
Please make this smart, so when not needed I can push it into the body, and when I want it I just pull out the handle.

A formfactor similar to my avatar please, and make the grip on the right side detatchable, so I can remove it and slide in at the bottom of the body in order to get a good grip when shooting video, as well as get it center balanced. And looking at my avatar (I did not create it), you will see some nifty tracks that could be used for mounting THE handle so I can hold this and shoot video as I walk/run etc and shooting below my hips.

Less than one kilogram.. (body only)

Of course support for XLR mics in one way or another, maybe default the small way... and optionally a RED breakout full size XLR box (premade tracks for this breakout box please so I do not have to use tape)
Headphone terminal.

Keep up the heat RED team

[no_treble]

What I want is this:
...


Holy cow bongobongo, how did you get my list before I was able to post it? :)

[kidrobot]

A comparison between RED and Canon 5D Mark II


Maybe it's just me, but both those clips seem useless for any kind of judging because of the heat distorting everything.

[Matthew Duclos]

I would love to throw an Angenieux 24-290 Optimo on a small, hand held DSLR/DSMC.. Just imagine the looks of the pro photogs at sports events.

[Remy Carter]

The DSMC will dominate the video/still market for news if it can pull this off and have available a plug for a shotgun mic or wireless. Its whats missing from the Nikon and the Canon equipment. And it is what is the main concern of several heads of photo departments across the industry. They have learned that without good audio multimedia doesn't work very well.

[Albert Thao]

The picture Jim posted awhile back. It must be this one...

[Remy Carter]

The big problem, that this picture fixes, is the comfort level photojournalist's would have with handling a video camera. If it fits in their hands like a standard still body they will love it.

[Joseph Ward]

The picture Jim posted awhile back. It must be this one...

That would be the end all camera for me if Scarlet and DSMC were the same!:usd:

[Don Woods]

Jim I do have a question and I know it has been talked about before here but I wanted to ask you your self. Now I plan one day on owning the whole lot of RED cameras. But for right now what would be best. Should I buy a good ole SLR for my still images and then Scarlet for my home videos(and beyond) or should I buy the DSMC.
Thanks.

[michael zaletel]

You do get a little bit of the same problem with the RED in that same shooting situation. "Fast pans on nearby verticals". Not as bad as the Nikon D90 of course but something to be aware of. From what I understand, this is just the nature of CMOS sensors and rolling shutters. I should point out that the wobbling effect (verticals slanted at angles) is hardly noticeable whereas with the D90 (in this example) it's extremely obvious.
-shooter

[William Robinette]

The picture Jim posted awhile back. It must be this one...

That is Scarlet.

I believe Jim has said before that they will be two different cameras/of two different uses.

Besides, a fixed lens on a DSMC?

[Casey Green]

Still hoping for interchangeable lenses on SCARLET.

[Brad Olsen]

Still hoping for interchangeable lenses on SCARLET.

yeah, not going to happen. If the camera is to launch early next year, my guess is at NAB, then I'm almost certain there are prototypes built and happily recording images at RED Headquarters. Besides, it ain't a bad fixed lens, 28mm (full frame still 35mm equivalent) 8x. If you need wider or more telephoto like images I'm sure they'll be adapters to give you those looks.

[David Dennis]

That is Scarlet.

I believe Jim has said before that they will be two different cameras/of two different uses.

Besides, a fixed lens on a DSMC?

I don't think that's Scarlet. If my memory serves, Scarlet was long and narrow like a video camera, and this is short and wide like a DSLR.

It seems plausible that either there are some RED lenses that will be available for purchase, or that Jim's early render has a RED logo on the lens simply because he wants it that way.

I think Jim is aware of the necessity for interchangeable lenses on a DSLR so I would be truly shocked if that was not the case. But I see no reason, come to think of it, that the RED-branded lenses designed for RED ONE would not work with his new camera.

D

[Michael Schrengohst]

OK, so I have read this thread. If the DSMC will be so great, why would you need Scarlet? Why wouldn't RED just throw more resources into it's DSMC project?

[Jon Sagud]

The picture Jim posted awhile back. It must be this one...

This is an image, an early design render, of Scarlet with the Smart Handle accessory attached.

[Karl Gustav H.]

OK, so I have read this thread. If the DSMC will be so great, why would you need Scarlet? Why wouldn't RED just throw more resources into it's DSMC project?

At a guess Scarlet will be smaller and lighter. Also it will have more auto functions and a deeper DOF, making it more suited to the one man band/ soccermom market. I suspect the DSMC will be geared solely towards the pro end of the spectrum, with a larger sensor and probably higher price point. There is also the question of framerates. DSMC may peak at a lower FPS than either Scarlet or Epic.

[Brad Olsen]

I don't think that's Scarlet. If my memory serves, Scarlet was long and narrow like a video camera, and this is short and wide like a DSLR.

Big Jon is right y'all! That is a render of the Scarlet with the smart handle attached. I recommend listening to the red centre podcast from the folks at fxguide.com It's a great podcast where they discuss all things RED. I didn't see the "Smart Handle" in the forums first, they talked about what it was in their podcast and then I found the image. For me there was no confusion as to why a Scarlet render looked so much like a DSLR.

[David Rasberry]

The picture is Scarlet with the optional smart handle attachment.

See http://www.scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=5

[BobSimon]

The design of the body is proprietary. No two cameras have same body. The most comfortable bodies belong to Nikon and Canon. I cannot imagine anybody making a more ergonomic camera body. The camera in the photo look cumbersome. I will not buy such a bulky camera.

[Jason Sinclair]

The DSMC will be aimed at stills... You take video and pick your stills. I can tell you the pro photo market will go ape over it. I have already picked some of the best stills ever shot in my life from red frame grabs. That 1/24th of a second moment of perfection, the glint in the eyes, the change of emotion. I tell you Jim is spot on.... This is the market and the future. So workflow... Take footage into redcine , find your 4k + still and output to... redraw adobe in photoshop and do your post.
Scarlet is a video camera.... They are two different beasts. But of course the complimentary factors are enormous...

[Justin A. Lincoln]

The DSMC will be aimed at stills... You take video and pick your stills. I can tell you the pro photo market will go ape over it. I have already picked some of the best stills ever shot in my life from red frame grabs. That 1/24th of a second moment of perfection, the glint in the eyes, the change of emotion. I tell you Jim is spot on.... This is the market and the future. So workflow... Take footage into redcine , find your 4k + still and output to... redraw adobe in photoshop and do your post.
Scarlet is a video camera.... They are two different beasts. But of course the complimentary factors are enormous...

This strikes me as a "photography by luck" way of shooting, to a fair degree. i really think there's something to be said for having the patience and skill to know just when the fraction of a second is right, when light and composition have come together, to take that picture. Capture x number minutes worth of continuous footage at x frame rate and your bound to pull at least one artistic frame out of it.

[Tom Lowe]

May the Force be With You, Jim!

[Jannard]

The design of the body is proprietary. No two cameras have same body. The most comfortable bodies belong to Nikon and Canon. I cannot imagine anybody making a more ergonomic camera body. The camera in the photo look cumbersome. I will not buy such a bulky camera.

hehe... Bob. You are too funny. You are comparing Scarlet (a motion camera that shoots 3K) to a DSLR that shoots stills. Two different animals. Why not compare Scarlet to a Varicam or HDCAM and the Canon to the Nikon or Sony? BTW, have you actually held a Scarlet?

No one has seen our DSMC. When we post it, you can compare it to whatever you want... even though nothing will compare in performance.

After reading all your posts I get that you don't like RED very much. That's OK. Why exactly are you here?

Jim

[Jason Ing]

This strikes me as a "photography by luck" way of shooting, to a fair degree. i really think there's something to be said for having the patience and skill to know just when the fraction of a second is right, when light and composition have come together, to take that picture. Capture x number minutes worth of continuous footage at x frame rate and your bound to pull at least one artistic frame out of it.

That somehow makes it more legitimate or more artistic?

I'm sure that "action/sports" photographers know exactly when to push the button when the athlete/vehicle/event is perfect. In fact, they all use 8x10 cameras and wait patiently, "Ansel Adams" style for that perfect moment and snap the picture.

This also includes capturing dynamic, dramatic human emotion that's as quick as a sport but more elusive and fleeting.

I shoot with a Canon 40D and hope its 6.5 frames per second at RAW will capture what I need. And I do wait for the great moment.

Ansel Adams was a world class photographer and undeniably one of the greats. But there are other legitimate styles of shooting and capturing moments and creating great "art".

[Jason Sinclair]

This strikes me as a "photography by luck" way of shooting, to a fair degree. i really think there's something to be said for having the patience and skill to know just when the fraction of a second is right, when light and composition have come together, to take that picture. Capture x number minutes worth of continuous footage at x frame rate and your bound to pull at least one artistic frame out of it.

Luck is the old way. There's no luck in this method because you have the right tool.

Think of it like this. Digital fluid photography. The photographer just follows their instincts (hopefully they have already ascertained a certain amount of composition and lighting etc..) and flows with the shot. With trigger release there is no one in the world that can capture 1/24th of a second at a moment they realize they need to capture. It is impossible. Lots of great sporting shots have been got with motor drives and some of those photos are the best in sporting history, many flukes no doubt.

Sorry for you people that have a hard time adjusting to change but this is the future, specifically in sporting and events and anything involving people or nature.

[Jannard]

I have to agree with Jason here...

OK. There is a sequence of events that is incredible and will never happen again. I can pull the trigger once (one frame) and, if I am really good... get the exact moment of history. Or... I can put my camera on full motor, be more certain of getting the "moment in history", plus, maybe a few more moments that will never happen again. History is usually not just one instant, but many leading up to and after "that" moment. I shot cameras for many years that did not have motors. I don't feel any less of a photographer because I use one now. It is not to say that some shots need to be set up carefully. A motor is not a substitute for talent.

One step further. Now if I could shoot that same sequence of events in full motion, knowing that any one of the frames could stand on its own with no quality loss compared to a still camera... now THAT would be something. Hence the DSMC.

Jim

[Jason Sinclair]

EXAMPLE: Three kids all moving around.

http://i35.tinypic.com/nda82e.jpg

Shot on red one. Either frame on both sides unusable.

result: Happy mums

[Luis Caffesse]

A motor is not a substitute for talent.
Absolutely.
Same could be said of the camera itself.


One step further. Now if I could shoot that same sequence of events in full motion, knowing that any one of the frames could stand on its own with no quality loss compared to a still camera... now THAT would be something. Hence the DSMC.

You definitely know how to push the right buttons, Jim.
One day I feel like I can't wait for the release of Scarlet - the next I'm anticipating the announcement of the next camera.

This is a hell of a build up - and I have no doubt RED will pay it off well.

[Evin Grant]

A motor is not a substitute for talent.

I agree, and I think the concept of a single handheld professional imaging device is inevitable, but I worry about the implications for the photographer/artist. But there is no doubt in my mind that even more of the creativity of the artist will shift from the camera to the computer. And sometimes to the editor/art director. We will be required to spend vastly greater amount of time just finding these moments (I'm already doing it with the 9fps of the D3). This is neither good nor bad but does add complexity to the job, possibly at the cost of creative control. It will require those of us who have to use the tools to learn when the DSMC should be used in single shot or SAW mode.

The SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon, M249 Light Machine Gun)
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m249saw-2.jpg
Of course the SAW only shoots 12FPS (Fatalities pre second)

[Brad Olsen]

After reading all your posts I get that you don't like RED very much. That's OK. Why exactly are you here?

Jim

I love RED, always and forever. Two goals I have for my production company in the next year or so, all Macs with Final Cut Pro and all RED Cameras. Thanks to the pricing of the Scarlet I know I can do it. Without Scarlet I would have had to settle for EX1s. But I feel so spoiled. I still remember my love affair with the DVX (you don't want to know the details so don't ask :tongue: ), and now a camera that shoots 1-60fps on 3 1/2" CMOS sensors with 1080p res and records to the XDCAM format isn't good enough? Jim, you're spoiling us!

Can't wait to see what this DSMC will look like!

[Sarah C.]

Last time I tried letting the camera rapid fire during the approximate time of the shot I actually missed the best moment. I've been far more accurate to just wait... wait... for the shot. I also shoot 100% manual... Doesn't matter how good the camera is.. it still may not be looking at the exact plane of focus or object for exposure. If that makes me an elitist, purest, old fashioned and a markswoman, well then hot dog!

What tweaks my melon is when there is a delay from the moment I shoot to the moment of capture.

~Sarah

[Fran Kuhn]

Wouldn't a single camera used for stills and video really have a limited practical use? I mean, how would you produce useable images that work in both worlds when you have to choose an exposure duration that can only work for one or the other? Shoot RC on a Suzuki RM-Z450 at 1/48th and it will be too blurred to use as a still for advertising. Shoot a kid's birthday party at 1/500th and it will look like "Saving Private Ryan."

Just wondering.

Thanks,

-Fran

[Jason Ing]

EXAMPLE: Three kids all moving around.Shot on red one. Either frame on both sides unusable.

result: Happy mums

You mean this isn't the fourth take by professional actors and she didn't cutely hold her tongue like that for you to capture it just right? :)

[Evin Grant]

IMHO there should be four modes:
Still-Single Shot (One press one frame)
Still-Continuous (1-30FPS?) Whatever shutter works for you
Motion- 24-48fps 1/48(varibable) shutter.
Hybrid- 24fps 1/48th motion with the option of shooting a frame at the exact moment of the shutter button is pressed at a preset or auto set shutter speed.

I guess this would mean there would be two release buttons , a still and a motion, so that you could record either at a moment s notice.

[Sanook]

Is the sensor really the same 2/3" sensor from the Scarlet? Or (hopefully) it is at least APS-C sized...FF better still.

[Justin A. Lincoln]

I should not have used the the word "luck" in my original post. So, to a degree, I kinda agree with what supernovafilms typed and see where you're coming form. In fact, luck is actually the wrong word entirely. I should've used a new phrase, ready...photography by omni-inclusion. However, I hardly think luck was the old way. Though luck has a hand in everything, if you're a photographer relying on luck, you're not a photographer. Though there have been legit and compelling arguments for shooting "video" to get your stills, I'll argue that the soul of non-staged (event, sports) photography is the ability to be one with situation, and I believe, not to have to rely on grabbing a frame from a stream of photographs. I'm not suggesting that you take one picture and go home.

Here's my point...while the omni-inclusion approach has it's role, if you are relying on your stream of stills to capture your best photograph, then yes, I think there something less "legitimate" about the still, or maybe, it's just less romantic. To be more precise...of course you're going to capture that most excellent still when you're capturing everything.

[Jun-Dai]

I agree, and I think the concept of a single handheld professional imaging device is inevitable, but I worry about the implications for the photographer/artist. But there is no doubt in my mind that even more of the creativity of the artist will shift from the camera to the computer. And sometimes to the editor/art director. We will be required to spend vastly greater amount of time just finding these moments (I'm already doing it with the 9fps of the D3). This is neither good nor bad but does add complexity to the job, possibly at the cost of creative control. It will require those of us who have to use the tools to learn when the DSMC should be used in single shot or SAW mode.

So I was thinking about that. What if there was a feature allowing you to capture up to 30 seconds of footage into a buffer, and then scroll quickly through the buffer selecting the photos you wanted to save? This would obviously be a bit limiting if this was the only way the camera worked, but as a feature I can think of many places where this would be useful: all the benefits of being able to capture the right moment, but without the hassle of sorting through all the photos later and deleting most of them.

Or with a similar level of effort on the user's part, it seems like an obvious feature to allow you to look through the clips on your computer later with a program specifically designed for making it easy to select the RAW (or auto-processed JPGs if you prefer) stills you want out of the footage.

[BobSimon]

hehe... Bob. You are too funny. You are comparing Scarlet (a motion camera that shoots 3K) to a DSLR that shoots stills. Two different animals. Why not compare Scarlet to a Varicam or HDCAM and the Canon to the Nikon or Sony? BTW, have you actually held a Scarlet?

No one has seen our DSMC. When we post it, you can compare it to whatever you want... even though nothing will compare in performance.
Jim

I meant to say, if the DSMC look like that picture, I will not buy it. Because it is too bulky for a DSLR. I am used to the body of nikons and Canons. I think they are very ergonomic. They fit in my plam very well. That is what I meant.

I am in the waiting list for both D90 and 5D Mark II.
I am not fanatic about any brand. If DSMC is small like the D90 and has better features, I will buy DSMC too.
Sony DSLRs are bulkier than Canons in my opinion.
(Next, I would like to look at the new 3/4 form factor cameras.)

[Peter Majtan]

Bob, unless You have never owned a DSLR and are buying complete package of body with lenses (in which case it contradicts Your "being used to") - I know of very few people who would use professionally both brands. This is simply due to the fact that it is not the body (that every professional ends up changing every couple of years or so), but the lenses that You have invested in, that determine Your brand preference. I am a long fan, user and developer of Canon gear. I have nothing against Nikon and I am sure it is as good as Canon - any preference between the two is personal and in my experience based on one's investment into the respective glass...

I just don't understand how can You be in a wait-list for both the Nikon and the Canon and "decide" to buy which ever "comes first", no offense...

Having tested the 50D for about a month now and am actually deciding between the 50D and 5Dm2, the 50D is that good...

DSMC (when it comes out) will hopefully address our investment in glass, and if it does - I am sold. This would make the 50D or the 5Dm2 the last DSLR I will buy... :)

Again - I mean no offense, I just don't understand how can You be wait-listed for both the Nikon and the Canon, unless You are buying Your first package with lenses, which would contradict Your other statements...

I don't see Scarlet being any "bulkier" then my current DSLR's, at least not in any significant way. It looks really ergonomic to me. But maybe this could be attributed to my 6'4" hight (meaning I have a large hands...) :)

Peace... :red_bandana:

[David Rasberry]

Hopefully it will withstand being dropped without killing it. My wife dropped her Nikon D40 once and it was toast.

[BobSimon]

I just don't understand how can You be in a wait-list for both the Nikon and the Canon and "decide" to buy which ever "comes first", no offense...:

My interest in D90 and Canon MKII is the video feature. Either one would be enough, for limited video use. Both are good for basic still photography. These are the perfect dual purpose cameras, to date.

Hopefully DSMC would be more compact with better features and cheaper.

[Kellan O'Connor]

Jim,
Will this be more a tool for the cinematographer in me, or the photographer? Both are excited, and both are ready for whatever you've got, but are both going to be satisfied?
thanks
kellan
(first post)

[Jason Ing]

if you're a photographer relying on luck, you're not a photographer. Carl, I get what you're saying. I guess you're really leaning on the word "relying". I guess if that's the only thing that creates a picture, then like anyone who went to Las Vegas will tell you, your luck will run out and so you probably couldn't make a profession out of photography.

But I do consider serendipity, happy happenstance, the fortuitous moment, as "part" of the creative process.

But preferring or wanting the option of having a series of images to choose from isn't an indication of lack of ability or craftsmanship, etc. It also could mean that the photographer has a discerning eye and subtle, discriminating tastes and wants to select only the best among the very best. For instance, when I setup a shot with a model/actress, I'll direct them like a scene, knowing that there will be a moment (not a split second), but still, a relatively brief moment in time that everything will come together and I'll need to press the shutter.

Have I got that "shot" with just one press? Yes. When you're a college student and could only afford ONE roll of film... LOL... you get very good at timing it right to make sure that one of those 36 shots is gold. I considered it a good shoot if I got 2-3 winners out of a roll. One was enough. But when I could afford more film, and I could actually go from single shot to high speed, I got more "winners".

I don't know if you ever tried shooting a series of images, but looking from milli-second frame by milli-second frame, there really is a huge difference if your tastes are discriminating (I don't mean that to be a knock on you... okay... maybe just a little upside your head playing... heh-heh.). So in those few seconds that I "choose" to hit the button, there will be a series of great shots... but one of them will be "fantastic" and more of a winner then the other winners. The flying hair will be just right, the furrowed brow just so, and the eyes... perfect.

Maybe the DSMC will change you. ;)

Just my 2 cents.

[twelve17]

I'll argue that the soul of non-staged (event, sports) photography is the ability to be one with situation, and I believe, not to have to rely on grabbing a frame from a stream of photographs. I'm not suggesting that you take one picture and go home.

These two sentences seem contradictory to me. You are arguing that the photographer not rely on a stream of photos, which to me implies that they instead rely on their "talent" to foresee the "right" time, yet you also deny suggesting that they take one picture and go home, which to me implies that they need to make multiple attempts to get the "right" frame. So does the photographer have this "talent" or not? Where does the threshold live, where one is applying the romanticized act of "knowing" about this magic moment, and not?



Here's my point...while the omni-inclusion approach has it's role, if you are relying on your stream of stills to capture your best photograph, then yes, I think there something less "legitimate" about the still, or maybe, it's just less romantic. To be more precise...of course you're going to capture that most excellent still when you're capturing everything.

I think that this argument is too narrow. If you, as a photographer, are using the metric of time as the only basis to get the right shot, then you are not thinking about composition, lighting, etc; you are not anticipating movements or reading body language.

In my opinion, a photographer's goal to get the "right" shot at the "right" moment involves being able to anticipate it, placing the camera at the appropriate angle, composing the shot, focus where desired, and then press the shutter. The stream approach only eliminates the last step. The ability to properly perform the previous steps will be the what that separate shots that catch the moment and those that do not, scenarios of dumb luck excluded.

I will concede that it's much less romantic to see a great sporting shot on a newspaper if it wasn't due to the split second intersection of when it happened and when the photographer pressed the shutter button. But this notion has been deteriorating for a while now because that limitation has been disappearing.

You can think of it as "less people will get the right shot by shooting at the right time", or "maybe we'll see many more 'right' shots that would have been missed by the 'single shutter action' approach".

[Peter Majtan]

My interest in D90 and Canon MKII is the video feature. Either one would be enough, for limited video use. Both are good for basic still photography. These are the perfect dual purpose cameras, to date.

Hopefully DSMC would be more compact with better features and cheaper.

Bob, this is exactly the kind of misunderstanding Jim was warning about - that some people might actually buy it for the video features as main reason. You are in for a nasty surprise...

Also calling D90 & the MKII "good for basic still photography" must be the understatement of the year...

In the end You have missed my point. Whether it is video or still features that lures You - You will need glass... From Your post I have assumed that You are seasoned DSLR user/owner and therefore have already nice set of glass - in which case I was puzzled why would You go wait-listed for two competing brands...

[twelve17]

It seems very interesting to me that every shot is a lock-down shot. The camera is not moving in any sample footage.

Jim

I thought the same thing too. As Canon, here you have a camera that now shoots1080p video, and, given the many types of scenes you could shoot to show it off, you decide to...set it on a tripod and let it sit there, for every demo clip?

Given the skew factor, now it makes sense.

[Joseph Ward]

Jim, I have said this before and I will say it again:

What I am trying to say is that there is also a huge market for 2K delivery (currently addressed by You with Scarlet). What will be nice is to see Mysterium X and/or Monstro in S35/F35 size with "only" 3K-RAW resolution destined for pristine 2K deliveries. That particular niche between Scarlet & Red One... Camera that is not "pocket", offers interchangeable lens mounts and priced under $10K. Not only this is doable, but very much desirable...

Just my two pesos...

:) Peter

What if Scarlet and DSMC were the same and ''this camera'' was a Full 35mm size with interchangeable lens and 3k movie mode under $10k!:weight_lift:

[P Andersson]

30 megapixel still and 3K movie for $3k... soon enough

[BobSimon]

Bob, this is exactly the kind of misunderstanding Jim was warning about - that some people might actually buy it for the video features as main reason. ...

There are hundreds on the waiting list ahead of me. They are all lured by the HD video feature. Inspite of all its limitations, have you ever seen a video device that small that can use a 35 mm lens and record onto a SD card?

Have you ever dreamed of pitching your bulky video and still gear at home and whistling through airport checkpoints with a tiny DSLR hanging from your wrist, going on a vacation?

According to my local camera dealer, more such cameras are coming before Christmas. Apparently, the big cahuna will be the 28MP sony, with FF sensor and no Jello effect. If his prediction become a reality before I take possession of D90/MKII, and if the sony has a compact formfactor, I might consider the big cahuna.

Oh, one more thing, if I can trust the camera dealer, the jello effect in D90 will be remedied in their future production run.

[Justin A. Lincoln]

But I do consider serendipity, happy happenstance, the fortuitous moment, as "part" of the creative process.

Can't deny that. The happy accident often produces a wonderful result. Doesn’t having a stream of pictures, in a way, remove the "happy accident" by the nature of the process, don’t you think and that makes me a little sad. (poor ol’ carlspackler). Now, to contradict myself, the stream approach has the potential for limitless “happy accidents” and where's the joy in that?



But preferring or wanting the option of having a series of images to choose from isn't an indication of lack of ability or craftsmanship, etc. It also could mean that the photographer has a discerning eye and subtle, discriminating tastes and wants to select only the best among the very best. For instance, when I setup a shot with a model/actress, I'll direct them like a scene, knowing that there will be a moment (not a split second), but still, a relatively brief moment in time that everything will come together and I'll need to press the shutter.

Have I got that "shot" with just one press? Yes. When you're a college student and could only afford ONE roll of film... LOL... you get very good at timing it right to make sure that one of those 36 shots is gold. I considered it a good shoot if I got 2-3 winners out of a roll. One was enough. But when I could afford more film, and I could actually go from single shot to high speed, I got more "winners".

I don't know if you ever tried shooting a series of images, but looking from milli-second frame by milli-second frame, there really is a huge difference if your tastes are discriminating (I don't mean that to be a knock on you... okay... maybe just a little upside your head playing... heh-heh.). So in those few seconds that I "choose" to hit the button, there will be a series of great shots... but one of them will be "fantastic" and more of a winner then the other winners. The flying hair will be just right, the furrowed brow just so, and the eyes... perfect.

Then is sounds like RED's DSMC may be rather ideal for you.



Maybe the DSMC will change you. ;)

I won't hold it against you if it does :)

------

I’m not trying to say anyone who wants to shoot a stream and pull the winner is not a real photographer. That would discount those who perhaps have a greater talent at post-production over production. Personally, I just think there's something to be said for getting it right, or as close to right as possible, the first time with your gut and your instinct and your talent. And to me, this is impressive and garners my adoration.

Now I fully understand that just about any form of photography requires "post production", it’s part of the process. I just think, in my own personal opinion, that you're losing something if you gear your workflow toward post production. But hey, maybe one person likes to gather as much as they can and pick from there. I, however, relish capturing those discrete moments in time. For me, it leaves a story on both sides of the image. We may never know what came just before and just after that fraction of a second. Clearly, you can tell my interest does not like in commercial photography. In my humble opinion, there's less magic and you start down a slippery slope, if you are putting more emphasis on post-production, but hey, maybe we’re just moving into a new age.

[Ajit_AP]

Jim, you are a tease. And not in a good way.

I have the Nikon D90, the skew can be seen but for most situations it isn't as bad as the footage you linked to. It is a not a camera that is meant to shoot video but it can do a fantastic job. I have shot about 20 minutes of handheld video without a problem. People who have seen these samples have been blown away. Part of the solution is to use a wider angle lens (I have a 20mm/35mm).

I will most likely buy the RED DSMC (and Scarlet) when it does come out. However, that is at least a year and a half away. But seriously, Jim, get a grip. Stop being a tease. When you are close to actually shipping a product, let's talk about it. I remember the Red release for all of the glitches.

Promise less and deliver more.

I cannot help but feel all of this DSMC talk is to stop filmmakers from committing to another technology. There is no need for that. When you ship, many people WILL buy your product.

Time is not renewable.

[androbot2084]

First of all I am not a photographer so the only way I can get good results is by taking frame grabs off of a video camera. I like the idea of burst shooting which starts taking photographs even before the trigger is fully depressed. I don't care how good you are but no one is a fast enough shooter to compete with a frame rate of 100 frames a second. Of course the purists will object just like they objected when the hand cranks were removed from movie cameras and replaced with motors.

[Jannard]

Jim, you are a tease. And not in a good way.

I have the Nikon D90, the skew can be seen but for most situations it isn't as bad as the footage you linked to. It is a not a camera that is meant to shoot video but it can do a fantastic job. I have shot about 20 minutes of handheld video without a problem. People who have seen these samples have been blown away. Part of the solution is to use a wider angle lens (I have a 20mm/35mm).

I will most likely buy the RED DSMC (and Scarlet) when it does come out. However, that is at least a year and a half away. But seriously, Jim, get a grip. Stop being a tease. When you are close to actually shipping a product, let's talk about it. I remember the Red release for all of the glitches.

Promise less and deliver more.

I cannot help but feel all of this DSMC talk is to stop filmmakers from committing to another technology. There is no need for that. When you ship, many people WILL buy your product.

Time is not renewable.

Fair observation... as from my side, we'll do this the way we want to and live with the consequences, even if it means pissing a few people off. You get to run your business the way you want.

As for the D90, I bought one to see for myself what the issues really are (or not). The stills are very good. Very nice consumer still camera. The video is not. The skew is totally unacceptable to me. You can mitigate it somewhat by shooting wide but I'd hate to be constrained or always worried about "what might be acceptable and what might not" when shooting any camera. This camera (shooting video) needs to be locked down. You can get some pretty good results if the camera does not move and the subject is not moving very fast. It is a start down the right path for many. Which is why we are building a DSMC.

Every camera is a compromise... the RED ONE and D90 are no exceptions. But the truth is what it is. The read-reset is too slow for this sensor to be used as a real motion capture camera where the results matter. And to answer Bob Simon's comment... unless the dealer works at Nikon and has inside scoop that no one else has, it will need a new sensor, not a firmware upgrade.

One last point... "what really matters" is subjective. We have targeted our products to professionals that make a living with their images. They have to hold up to being seen on a 60' cinema screen. If you don't need that, but rather want images for family history where they will only be seen in email QT's, this camera can do that. If you are looking to compare consumer cameras to professional ones, be prepared to get hammered here if your standards are too low. The RED ONE is being compared to film, the Arri D21, Genesis, etc. That is our target. When a consumer camera can match the images these cameras make, and can be bought for $1K... I'll buy one and go spend my time in Fiji.

Jim

[RobertP]

Jim, will you work with Adobe to allow the (still photo) RAW files from this future camera to be converted and processed in Adobe Camera RAW and Adobe Lightroom?

I'm a stock photographer, and I use many RAW converters, but I'm starting to work with LR more and more, not only with Canon files, but even with files from digital backs.

One more thing: Will we know the specs of the DSMC in December 2008?

[Kyle Presley]

Jim, you are a tease. And not in a good way... But seriously, Jim, get a grip.

Wow, how rude is that? RED has single-handedly changed the industry in one fell swoop with the RED One, and will truly revolutionize it with the Scarlet. Jim heads up RED team and if he were to "get a grip," I would be afraid of what that would mean for RED. Jim, continue what you're doing exactly as you're doing it.

And you, sir, should be a little more generous. Jim brought us a 4k cinema camera for an unprecedented low cost. RED is making it possible for me to shoot the way I've wanted to for years. I don't think I'm alone in saying that Jim deserves a little respect for what he's doing. Why don't you get grip and try running a 4k cinema company yourself? I'm sure you would be more than a little zealous if you were doing what they were. I have a feeling RED will continue to push the envelope. I am sure we are in for a lot of surprises.

I see the hype not as advertising and swaying the market, but rather as the enthusiasm these folks have for their products, in development and otherwise.

[Jason Ing]

Like I said before, I believe that part of the legitimate reason that there are early announcements is that it's part of Red's development process to listen to their customers BEFORE they finalize their product. I don't need to go into the benefits of listening to users.

And if Jim wants to have fun along the way, good for him. He deserves and earned it.

[Ajit_AP]

http://vimeo.com/D90/

[BobSimon]

RED has single-handedly changed the industry in one fell swoop with the RED One, and will truly revolutionize it with the Scarlet. Jim heads up RED team and if he were to "get a grip," I would be afraid of what that would mean for RED. Jim, continue what you're doing exactly as you're doing it.
.

Yes. I agree. RED is a revolutionary product. It has shaken up the industry.
DSMC could similarly shake up industry when it arrives.
But, until DSMC arrives, D90/MKII will be revolutionary.
I am not sure D90 can replace a videocamera. But, for short low quality clips, this might be sufficient. In my case I can live with a D90 until DSMC arrives.
I hope DSMC will be as compact as D90 and similarly priced.

[Kyle Presley]

I am hoping for true medium format, at ultra high resolution. I really think that is the answer to blow all the other dslrs out of the water. I don't know if the read/reset times would be able to keep up with a 6cm x 6cm sensor, or if it's physically possible. But just imagine... Larger pixels = more latitude, but still have tons of pixels, 40+ mp? One of the main advantages a medium format digital camera would have is glass. medium format glass is more efficient than 35mm glass. There is less aberration and more sharpness.

[Kyle Presley]

Here's an interesting article:

http://www.photographical.net/canon_1ds_mf.html

[Gunleik Groven]

The RED ONE is being compared to film, the Arri D21, Genesis, etc. That is our target. When a consumer camera can match the images these cameras make, and can be bought for $1K... I'll buy one and go spend my time in Fiji.

Jim

... or more likely:
You'll be selling them, while spending your time in Fiji checking out your handheld 3d cam that you can preview realtime proxies from on your laptop...

[bongobongo]

Take a look at this link.

Some comments on the video capabilities of the 5D Mark II, also a comment on skew (if there is any).
Some footage are promised in a short while as well.

http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/09/20/something-very-interesting-is-comingboth-to-this-blog-and-to-our-industry/#comment-915

[reality]

Eeeek. They should try a bit harder to disguise contrived user experiences. Every other line reads like it came from a marketing dept.

[Jaime Vallés]

I have the Nikon D90, the skew can be seen but for most situations it isn't as bad as the footage you linked to. It is a not a camera that is meant to shoot video but it can do a fantastic job. I have shot about 20 minutes of handheld video without a problem. People who have seen these samples have been blown away. Part of the solution is to use a wider angle lens (I have a 20mm/35mm).
Are you serious? Look at a frame grab from the video you yourself posted on the link above (http://vimeo.com/D90/). This is some intense skew.

It's fine for shooting home movies, but that's about it.

[Chris Nuzzaco]

I gotta ask...

Is this DSLR multi mount? If so, Red WILL slaughter the others, assuming the image quality also competes, etc... which I'm sure it will.

[BobSimon]

D90 is a fantastic camera, a game changer for $1200. But it has skew. no hiding it. Just like Jannard said, this is not a videocamera.
MKII is better. I looked at some of the stuff shot with MKII, it is really fantastic without any skew. it costs twice as much though for twice the resolution.
Both use sensors made by Sony.
Sony expected to come out with a 28MP still/video cameara soon. Probably under $3000. That will be even more interesting.
I have no idea where will DSMC fit among all these cameras.

[no_treble]

...I have no idea where will DSMC fit among all these cameras.

Even if a major DSLR maker releases a camera with HD video with no skew, from what I read of the DSMC so far, it appears that it will offer far above simply "HD video with no skew".

But the most intriguing thing to me is, RED provides a way to upgrade the sensor, audio boards, etc, plus add features via software updates for their products, yet when Sony/Canon/Nikon develop the next generation of features/abilities on a camera, you have to go out and buy a completely new camera body from them if you want those features/abilities.

The upgradable, modular design is one of the main attention getters for me. If, as promised, it also shoots astounding still/video footage that will eclipse what the major camera companies are offering with their top models, it will create it's own class of camera and will likely leave the major camera companies with the question of how to "fit" something into this new class.

[RobertP]

MKII is better. I looked at some of the stuff shot with MKII, it is really fantastic without any skew. it costs twice as much though for twice the resolution. Both use sensors made by Sony.

Sorry, but all Canon DSLRs have sensors made by Canon, which is why I prefer Canon DSLRs over Sony and Nikon DSLRs.

The Canon sensors simply provide better image quality at BASE ISO (I don't care about all this high ISO/low noise nonsense), with finer details, while every Sony sensor in Nikon and Sony DSLRs I've seen somehow manages to smudge fine details a bit too much.

Canon sensors are far superior, and the challenge for RED's DSMC is to have a sensor that matches the characteristics of the Canon sensor.

[BobSimon]

Sorry, but all Canon DSLRs have sensors made by Canon, which is why I prefer Canon DSLRs over Sony and Nikon DSLRs.


Canon is using a Sony sensor in MKII.
The sensor in 10 MP Canon SX1 IS may use a canon sensor. BTW this camera also has live view and 1080p video, just like D90 and MKII.
24MP Sony alpha 900 camera has live view but no video function.

Interesting.

[Jannard]

...and the challenge for RED's DSMC is to have a sensor that matches the characteristics of the Canon sensor.

We have more challenges than just that. But after we release, Canon will also have a few challenges.

Jim

[Jaime Vallés]

We have more challenges than just that. But after we release, Canon will also have a few challenges.
Gauntlet = Thrown!

[BobSimon]

But the most intriguing thing to me is, RED provides a way to upgrade the sensor, audio boards, etc, plus add features via software updates for their products, yet when Sony/Canon/Nikon develop the next generation of features/abilities on a camera, you have to go out and buy a completely new camera body from them if you want those features/abilities.

Very True. These companies do not upgrade an older camera.
RED is the only company that will take an older model and give you a newer model. You have to pay the difference in price. Is this a permanent sales feature or is it only for the RED ONE Camera?



The upgradable, modular design is one of the main attention getters for me. If, as promised, it also shoots astounding still/video footage that will eclipse what the major camera companies are offering with their top models, it will create it's own class of camera and will likely leave the major camera companies with the question of how to "fit" something into this new class.
Jim Jannard has mentioned somewhere on this website that he will announce details of the DSMC in December-2008, or something to that effect.
So, nobody knows for sure what are the features of the DSMC, at this time.

We can only hope that the camera would be compact like Cannon/Nikon and lower in price than D90 and have more pixels without skew.

Canon/Nikon/Sony have very good reputation. Many people would opt for the name brand at high prices than a lower priced newer camera company.
So, it will be interesting to see how DSMC will be perceived by consumers in comparison to D90/MKII etc.

I predict D90 will go down in price by 50% come December. In 2009, Nikon and Canon and Sony will introduce newer models with better specs for under $1000.

[melgross]

Canon is using a Sony sensor in MKII.
The sensor in 10 MP Canon SX1 IS may use a canon sensor. BTW this camera also has live view and 1080p video, just like D90 and MKII.
24MP Sony alpha 900 camera has live view but no video function.

Interesting.

I was thinking whether to register now, or wait until later. But Your posts decided it for me.

Canon has always made all of its sensors for their D-SLRs. They are now making all of their sensors for all of their D-SLRs.

In fact, Canon pioneered the CMOS sensor for high quality D-SLR usage.

Canon now makes the sensor for the G-10. A sensor, in earlier incarnations, that was made by Sony.

Please get the facts correct before posting. If you are corrected later, then look up the information before disagreeing with the other poster, as you will likely try to do with my post.

This is information that you can easily find out.

Nikon is the one using Sony sensors, though the new sensor for the D3/700 is Nikon's first that was completely designed by themselves. This sensor is believed to be made by Sony, though some in the industry think it may be made by one of two others.

So, I'm giving you an out. You can now claim that you actually meant Nikon.

[melgross]

We have more challenges than just that. But after we release, Canon will also have a few challenges.

Jim

I must say, you are making rather large claims, without presenting any information as to what you are doing.

While your present products are very fine, this is a different category for you.

I've played a bit with the 5D mkII, and can say that the still images are are about the best I've seen so far from a 35mm size sensor. The Nikon D3/700 have just a bit better S/N, but overall the 5D mkIIs image is better when blown up.

I haven't checked the video (doing my own shooting), because of time, but it's not intended for serious high quality footage, but rather, for short bursts for photojournalistic purposes. For that, the samples I saw were more than good enough.

I don't understand why the discussion here seems to be thinking anything else.

I hope the DSMC will be a kick-ass machine. But a camera system is more than just a body. It's interesting that neither Canon or Nikon talk about new products before the official announcement, where specs are released.

I respect you too much to think you are talking FUD, with the intention of holding up purchases.

But why should anyone think that a newcomer in the D-SLR business would be capable of dethroning two long time masters?

I'm just curious, as you will have a customer base that consists, at first at least, of loyal RED customers, why you are so willing to talk up the product so much, but reluctant to give any information as to what we can expect, other that the fact that it will take stills and video?

Surely, with such a short timeframe left until the official unveiling, no one can copy any of the features or specs?

[jbeale]

Different companies, different strategies. Red talked up the Red One about two years before the first cameras shipped. I'm not saying their marketing plans are better or worse than other players in the field, just that pre-announcements are true to their particular form.

[Michael Bravin]

[QUOTE=melgross;288951]
But why should anyone think that a newcomer in the D-SLR business would be capable of dethroning two long time masters?

Mel

You're new here huh? :ohmy:

Red and Reduser is ALL about just this whether it is still or motion capture that's what Red aims to do...disrupt the status quo. Sit back and watch WHAT they do and you'll soon see if they can or not.
Michael

[Jason Ing]

But why should anyone think that a newcomer in the D-SLR business would be capable of dethroning two long time masters?


Because it's Jim Jannard.

Another master. :ph34r:

[Jannard]

But why should anyone think that a newcomer in the D-SLR business would be capable of dethroning two long time masters?


1st off... I'm not the least bit interested in whether anyone thinks we can do it or not.

If we had listened to all the people that said we could not be a factor in the digital cinema arena... we would have never done the project.

I had a guy (nameless forever) tell me at our 1st NAB that there was NO WAY we could do what we were promising to customers just to collect $1000 deposits. My response was "what I'm hearing you say is that YOU can't do it and you don't know anyone who can do it. But you don't know RED." He is now shooting a feature on RED.

Please keep up the skepticism. It is very good motivation around here.

Jim

[Priyesh P.]

what I am really wondering all the time is: will it be a SLR (Single-Lens Reflex) camera, with a mechanically driven mirror or a wholly digital camera without reflex viewing, like the Red One?

[Jannard]

Details of our DSMC will probably be given out near the end of the year...

Jim

[Joe D'Arcy]

Thanks Jim for your never ending dedication and your passion to create what you want and in turn what we want.

[dalen johnson]

I was thinking whether to register now, or wait until later. But Your posts decided it for me.

Canon has always made all of its sensors for their D-SLRs. They are now making all of their sensors for all of their D-SLRs.

Perhaps - and this is a place where people can clarify if this is fact or not - this is why the person posted what they did.

From what I have read in the past (if its accurate or not, others can say), Sony made the chips for Canons Video line.
It could be, and Im not sure about this at all, that Bob was thinking that sony made the chip for Canons 5dII because it does video now...perhaps he got it confused with the Nikon bit, as you mentioned, or the 'fact' they made video sensors for Canon.

Either way - I would see Sony as more of a competitor to Reds new project than Canon. Again, I know the arguments about the A900 vs. the 5dII. (along with the fact that the a900 isnt doing video, so it would be in a future camera)
BUT...remember, Sony is an established video company that can blow canon out of the water...its a matter of will and time if they were to do it to canon.

But if they do supply video chips to Canon, then one wonders how such a move would affect their partnership.
And the fact they (Sony) make chips for the other rival Nikons DSLR shows that Sonys hand is in both companies (canon and nikon) so any real competition is questionable as it would affect business relations.

So, at this point in time, it seems that RED stands a good chance, (and many will argue better than good) to find their selves a nice niche in the market - which will be more appealing than what Sony, Canon, Nikon are offering.

Had you been around when Red first announced their video plans...you would have heard all of the nay-sayers, and now its just a given fact that RED is here to stay, as it were. ;)

As I said before, a man with a billion + dollars (money isnt the point, its access to the resources needed - typically money gets you there), as well as a dream...can do what ever he wants to. :)

Hang around, and Im sure you will be impressed. :)

Peace

dAlen

[BobSimon]

Perhaps - and this is a place where people can clarify if this is fact or not - this is why the person posted what they did.

From what I have read in the past (if its accurate or not, others can say), Sony made the chips for Canons Video line.
It could be, and Im not sure about this at all, that Bob was thinking that sony made the chip for Canons 5dII because it does video now...perhaps he got it confused with the Nikon bit, as you mentioned, or the 'fact' they made video sensors for Canon.

Either way - I would see Sony as more of a competitor to Reds new project than Canon. Again, I know the arguments about the A900 vs. the 5dII. (along with the fact that the a900 isnt doing video, so it would be in a future camera)
BUT...remember, Sony is an established video company that can blow canon out of the water...its a matter of will and time if they were to do it to canon.

But if they do supply video chips to Canon, then one wonders how such a move would affect their partnership.
And the fact they (Sony) make chips for the other rival Nikons DSLR shows that Sonys hand is in both companies (canon and nikon) so any real competition is questionable as it would affect business relations.

So, at this point in time, it seems that RED stands a good chance, (and many will argue better than good) to find their selves a nice niche in the market - which will be more appealing than what Sony, Canon, Nikon are offering.

Had you been around when Red first announced their video plans...you would have heard all of the nay-sayers, and now its just a given fact that RED is here to stay, as it were. ;)

As I said before, a man with a billion + dollars (money isnt the point, its access to the resources needed - typically money gets you there), as well as a dream...can do what ever he wants to. :)

Hang around, and Im sure you will be impressed. :)

Peace

dAlen

Sony's DSLR division is actually the old Minolta. Sony and Nikon and Canon are not out to destroy each other. I read somewhere that Canon and Nikon and Sony are making lenses for each other's cameras too.

Sony has a huge fab for sensors. They will manufacture sensors or other parts for anyone. The differences are mainly how other companies use these sensors. Sony has huge R&D. They came up with the new 28MP and 40MP CMOS sensors with very fast readouts. Canon and Nikon and Sony will use these chips in their future products. Who knows, even RED may be counting on these sensors.

The question whether RED can dethrone established masters is interesting.
Big masters have the knowhow and ability to produce very sophisticated stuff. But, they bring out these features only at a slow pace and at a high price. They have to pay for their expensive R&D and constuction of Fabs and factories.

RED, as I understand, does not have any R&D or sensor fabs or huge factories. They use parts already available in open market and sell products directly to customers, eliminating middlemen. So, RED can produce a camera with a large sensor and high MP count and sell it for under $1000. That will shake up the the industry, no doubt. But, long term viability of such a strategy is doubtful.

RED One is an established Camera now. It is still under development. Who knows what Sony will do in the future. There has been some comments on these forums about Sony bringing out a EX5 with 2/3" sensor and 35mm lenses in 2009 for under $10K. Or a Sony 4K camera or something like that. If this happens, RED's dominance will be challenged.

Sony, with its own huge R&D, design staff, manufacturing plants, world wide distributors, an established brand name and deep pockets, is hard to dethrone. Or, so it seem. However, there are occassional Davids to Goliaths in business.

Sony was not always big and successful like this. Sony was a small company like RED today. They challenged the then established behemoths with their innovative products like walkman. Consumers liked their products and made them into a household name which it is today. Microsoft was a small bunch of kids who bought software from other parties and resold as their own, until they got some big breaks. Toyota was a fledgling car manufacturer who could not even make a decent engine. But, their economical design and low price destroyed the behemoths like GM. So, RED can also overtake established masters, if they come up with innovative products.

Until Jim makes the announcement, we will not know if DSMC is the Sony killer. Let us hope so.

I cannot take pictures with promise of a great camera sometime in the future. I need a camera now. I am waiting for delivery of either D90 or MKII for use now. These cameras are real and available now. If and when DSMC become reality sometime in 2010 or 2011, I can buy that at that time.

[Lexicon]

You are correct that there is a little bit of a threesome going on between Nikon, Canon, and Sony but it is just farming out of sensor making and technology. Sony manufactures image sensors for Canon's P&S cameras and camcorders as well as designing and manufacturing them for Nikon's P&S and DSLRs. Canon DSLRs use only Canon's image sensors. There is no shared lens making between any of the companies.

[Kellan O'Connor]

I work in film. Here is what I previously thought about choosing between the Film and digital formats:

Film is like Traditional homemade lasagna. You can spend all day prepping the noodles and making the sauce, grating the cheese, and grinding the meat (pre-production). Then after all that money and time, you put it in the oven (production / final take). Once finished, you still have to wait for it to cool down (post-processing) before you can serve. The quality, if done properly, is perfect.

Digital is (was) like Stouffer's. "Cut cover to vent, heat for 10 min, let it cool for 2 minutes, ENJOY!" A lot of the work is done for you, and the quality can be good enough to share with someone (youtube / personal webpage).

This is what I previously thought. Red has changed the game and took both elements out. You now have 12 personal chefs that all work together along with a super powered convection oven (Mysterium X) to give you a fast result. They can serve friends and family alike (cinema screens), and if they mess up on the first batch, (take 1) then you can just re-record(final take). The quality, if done properly, is perfect.

Tradtional reasons aside, RED changes the game.
(Can't wait for DSMC)
Kellan

[dalen johnson]

Sony has a huge fab for sensors. They will manufacture sensors or other parts for anyone. The differences are mainly how other companies use these sensors. Sony has huge R&D. They came up with the new 28MP and 40MP CMOS sensors with very fast readouts. Canon and Nikon and Sony will use these chips in their future products. Who knows, even RED may be counting on these sensors.

Sony was not always big and successful like this. Sony was a small company like RED today. They challenged the then established behemoths with their innovative products like walkman. Consumers liked their products and made them into a household name which it is today. Microsoft was a small bunch of kids who bought software from other parties and resold as their own, until they got some big breaks. Toyota was a fledgling car manufacturer who could not even make a decent engine. But, their economical design and low price destroyed the behemoths like GM. So, RED can also overtake established masters, if they come up with innovative products.

You bring up something interesting.
At one point, they all started small and then grew into the corporations that have advanced technology that they slowly trickle down to the public at high prices to keep 'control'.

And so the question would be, it seems, is if RED would go the same route in the end of the day...if they were to become the new 'sony'/'microsoft', etc. Or can they be creative and come up with a new business dynamic altogether?

I will say this...making your products upgradable is a good concept they have going...as long as it doesnt end up being the bottleneck that we see in some large companies...(i.e., adobe upgrades which should be point updates.) ;)

But the point of starting small is not quite accurate either.
To a degree it is - but its all about resources.
All these guys, despite the 'poor factor' and humble beginnings that the news tries to heap upon them to make them sound more human and attainable...well they had a bit of a better start with resources than your average person, so to speak.

Not saying this is always the case...interesting none-the-less.

Peace

dAlen

[dalen johnson]

You are correct that there is a little bit of a threesome going on between Nikon, Canon, and Sony but it is just farming out of sensor making and technology. Sony manufactures image sensors for Canon's P&S cameras and camcorders as well as designing and manufacturing them for Nikon's P&S and DSLRs. Canon DSLRs use only Canon's image sensors. There is no shared lens making between any of the companies.

Lexicon,

The thing I would point out is this:

When considering that Sony is partnering with Nikon and Canon, (despite what products it may be), it then raises the question if its in Sonys interest to truly compete with those they have business with...on any level. (You make one dept. mad, it goes up the chain.)

Again, this is looking at the business as a whole and not divided.
(i.e., not looking at the specific divisions within.)
From a higher level, you would work with that company throughout the product line...

...thats why Canon users are complaining that a feature on the 5dII which was "the most logical" did not appear.
...also why Sony has features not appear that seem weird to have been left off but included in Nikon or Sony.

I mean, Nikon has better noise reduction than Sony who manufactures their chips? Sony cant learn from them and get a bit creative with high iso's?

When I see the competition between the 3 its like looking at Sonys lower dslr product line up. (200, 300, 350) "There is a feature here...but not here...this is a $100 cheaper, etc.

There basically ends up being a camera for everyone...with something missing. (This is where I hope Red can deliver.)
No one jumps ship...or if they do, there are others swinging the other way, so it stays balanced.

If sony truly rolled out the tech they had...well it would upset the apple cart with canon and vice-versa.

Is this bad?

On a positive note:
Its good to have collaboration.
Problem is a very old business model, which tries to have to much control.
I believe that is what Jim got tired of when he started Red. - slow release of technology that Sony and the gang were sitting on. Prices staying the same, and the fact is - if you move forward - everyone can benefit.

But it seems that when the ship is big, its harder to turn...a lot of fear is involved in change. A lot of that boils down to human mentality, and in a way we build the large corporations that we later want to replace. (a lot like politics. One group replaces another...sometimes its as bad as the one before if not worse.) :)

Anyway, enough chit chat. :)

Peace

dAlen

[dalen johnson]

I work in film. Here is what I previously thought about choosing between the Film and digital formats:

Film is like Traditional homemade lasagna. You can spend all day prepping the noodles and making the sauce, grating the cheese, and grinding the meat (pre-production). Then after all that money and time, you put it in the oven (production / final take). Once finished, you still have to wait for it to cool down (post-processing) before you can serve. The quality, if done properly, is perfect.

Digital is (was) like Stouffer's. "Cut cover to vent, heat for 10 min, let it cool for 2 minutes, ENJOY!" A lot of the work is done for you, and the quality can be good enough to share with someone (youtube / personal webpage).


Totally dug your post...very creative. :)

[BobSimon]

Lexicon,

When considering that Sony is partnering with Nikon and Canon, (despite what products it may be), it then raises the question if its in Sonys interest to truly compete with those they have business with...on any level. (You make one dept. mad, it goes up the chain.)dAlen

Sony, Canon and Nikon all invent the same features at the same time. They all invent similar products and sell them at similar prices. Even the 3" screen, live view, and video were all invented by these companies at the same time. mmmm. whole lot of coincidences... D90 is 10MP at $1200. MKII with twice the MP and twice the price. D90 has lot of skew fro $1200. MKII has half the skew at twice the price...their Sensors have similar technical designs and they all get stamped out from the same Sony Fab... Canon makes a line of lenses for Nikon... they even have similar processors and similar microcode.. Great capitalist competition? .. or, something fishy here...

Sony invented both betamax and VHS. They decided to manufacture Betamax and gave the other to Panasonic. Consumers preferred the technically inferior but cheaper VHS and made it de facto standard.

Sony and Panasonic are not out to kill each other. Nikon is weak and for all practical purposes is kept alive by other companies.

Dell is the largest computer company now. intel makes the processors, Samsung makes the memory, Chinese make the motherboard and Microsoft makes the OS. All dell does is put all these parts that are available in the open market together in one box (assembled in China) and sell under their name. RED is trying to do the same thing. Will RED become the Dell of cameras? Only time will tell.

Sony and Canon and Nikon make the whole products. Not just parts. Also, these companies own oodles of patents. So, RED cannot just put together some parts and outsell the masters. I read somewhere on these forums that Sony gets only $1500 out if every EX3 sold. The rest goes to middlemen. RED has cut out the middlemen. That is why they became popular. Dell also cut out the middlemen and that made their products cheaper and popular. But, the enormous manufacturing capacity and original patents and real R&D and innovations of Sony et al may still give them an edge. Sony et al is not just a marketing organization like RED.

RED has announced many products. Only RED one is available for purchase. Even that is constantly changing. RED has promised full value trade ins for beta version REDs. But, customers will have to pay the difference between price of old RED and the new RED. The value of dollar is decreasing. RED is paying back with cheaper dollars for older models. The price of the newer models would be twice as much as what it should be without trade in. or, in other words, this one-time trade-in offer is like what the car dealers offer. You get a trade in allowance towards purchase of an over-priced newer model. This will keep the customers loyal to the brand; but in reality this may not be much of a deal for customers in the long run.

Jim is the untimate salesman. Jim is trying to repeat what he did at Oakley sun glasses, with video and still cameras. Hope he succeeds and we will all benfit.

[David Rasberry]

The question whether RED can dethrone established masters is interesting.
Big masters have the knowhow and ability to produce very sophisticated stuff. But, they bring out these features only at a slow pace and at a high price. They have to pay for their expensive R&D and constuction of Fabs and factories.

RED, as I understand, does not have any R&D or sensor fabs or huge factories. They use parts already available in open market and sell products directly to customers, eliminating middlemen. So, RED can produce a camera with a large sensor and high MP count and sell it for under $1000. That will shake up the the industry, no doubt. But, long term viability of such a strategy is doubtful.

Sony, with its own huge R&D, design staff, manufacturing plants, world wide distributors, an established brand name and deep pockets, is hard to dethrone. Or, so it seem. However, there are occassional Davids to Goliaths in business.

I cannot take pictures with promise of a great camera sometime in the future. I need a camera now. I am waiting for delivery of either D90 or MKII for use now. These cameras are real and available now. If and when DSMC become reality sometime in 2010 or 2011, I can buy that at that time.

I submit that RED at this point is primarily an R&D company. That is where the time and attention and money is being spent.
The big players may have large R&D budgets, but these budgets are spread across multiple product lines and markets too. They may not invest much in R&D for a very small market like motion picture production unless there is a compelling competitive reason to do so.

RED is focused on a very narrow product line, where an R&D budget that would be small for Sony corporate can make significant impact. There is no economy of scale for RED at this point that would make the investment in dedicated manufacturing facilities worthwhile.

As public corporations the big guys suffer significant restrictions on risk taking in the interest of their stock holders too. Hence the deliberate pace of new product development.

From an equipment and technology stand point professional high end media production: motion picture, television, and still photography, are all boutique markets and there is plenty of space for small businesses producing unique and high quality gear.

[Priyesh P.]

Details of our DSMC will probably be given out near the end of the year...

Jim

ok, looking forward...
...each year starts with new things to get excited on :-)

[amonsul]

Some thoughts from Vincent Laforet's:
At a certain point of his first impression from the 5d MarkII he wrote
"2. It produces the best video in low light that I’ve ever seen - at 1080p. A top commercial film editor who who regularly edits RED camera footage - and has seen the raw footage from the 5D MKII - says the 5D MKII is “far superior to the RED camera” in terms of low light performance…"

Here the link to the article (http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/09/20/something-very-interesting-is-comingboth-to-this-blog-and-to-our-industry/)

Ciao

[Matthew Verkler]

I submit that RED at this point is primarily an R&D company. That is where the time and attention and money is being spent.
The big players may have large R&D budgets, but these budgets are spread across multiple product lines and markets too. They may not invest much in R&D for a very small market like motion picture production unless there is a compelling competitive reason to do so.

RED is focused on a very narrow product line, where an R&D budget that would be small for Sony corporate can make significant impact. There is no economy of scale for RED at this point that would make the investment in dedicated manufacturing facilities worthwhile.

As public corporations the big guys suffer significant restrictions on risk taking in the interest of their stock holders too. Hence the deliberate pace of new product development.

From an equipment and technology stand point professional high end media production: motion picture, television, and still photography, are all boutique markets and there is plenty of space for small businesses producing unique and high quality gear.

Innovation in the "professional" area has direct application to the consumer space, and vice versa. Sony will continue to leverage both sides for the benefit of the other. They will continue to respond to the Red threat, though my money's on Red for the products they make, because Red has the right values, and is nimble and quick-adapting. Like Sony once was, in the beginning.

As far as being public companies goes, remember that Sony, Nikon, and Canon are Japanese companies, whose strategic outlook is measured in decades. They have no problem investing huge amounts in areas (like fabs) where the payoff doesn't come by next quarter. Japanese companies, public or otherwise, are VERY different than so-called U.S. public companies. They think long term; they are not slaves to the stock market.

As an American, I love what Red is doing. Sure, most of the manufacturing is probably done overseas, but Red is COMPETING. It's a start. The U.S. needs to rebuild its industrial capability, not just for the sake of ourselves, but for the world as well. We can't sustain being the world's consumers forever while losing our industrial base. We're losing it because companies are "being run for the benefit of the stockholders", who may only have the stock for a week or a day and only care about this quarter, right now.

Sorry for the off-topic rant! Red is stickin' it to the man; keep it up!

[dalen johnson]

Some thoughts from Vincent Laforet's:
At a certain point of his first impression from the 5d MarkII he wrote
"2. It produces the best video in low light that I’ve ever seen - at 1080p. A top commercial film editor who who regularly edits RED camera footage - and has seen the raw footage from the 5D MKII - says the 5D MKII is “far superior to the RED camera” in terms of low light performance…"

Here the link to the article (http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/09/20/something-very-interesting-is-comingboth-to-this-blog-and-to-our-industry/)

Ciao

But it does not do 4k, 3k, or even 2k like RedONe. ;)
Its in HD land - Red is in cinema...thats the difference...and thats a big difference.

Now on a technical area, I dont understand how they (canon) has a bigger chip then Red and are stuck below the cinema range (2-4k) and dwell in HD land.

Is it because of the amount of data? suppose 12 minutes on a card is pushing it. So its not a matter of the canon not being able to do 4k...the sensor...but that the media isnt large enough to record the data stream?

Peace

dAlen

[Peter Majtan]

I work in film. Here is what I previously thought about choosing between the Film and digital formats:

Film is like Traditional homemade lasagna. You can spend all day prepping the noodles and making the sauce, grating the cheese, and grinding the meat (pre-production). Then after all that money and time, you put it in the oven (production / final take). Once finished, you still have to wait for it to cool down (post-processing) before you can serve. The quality, if done properly, is perfect.

Digital is (was) like Stouffer's. "Cut cover to vent, heat for 10 min, let it cool for 2 minutes, ENJOY!" A lot of the work is done for you, and the quality can be good enough to share with someone (youtube / personal webpage).

This is what I previously thought. Red has changed the game and took both elements out. You now have 12 personal chefs that all work together along with a super powered convection oven (Mysterium X) to give you a fast result. They can serve friends and family alike (cinema screens), and if they mess up on the first batch, (take 1) then you can just re-record(final take). The quality, if done properly, is perfect.

Tradtional reasons aside, RED changes the game.
(Can't wait for DSMC)
Kellan

As creative as Your post is, I totally disagree... EVERY single step You have described in the "Lasagna Workflow" applies to digital as well. Do You really skip "all day prepping the noodles and making the sauce, grating the cheese, and grinding the meat (pre-production)" just because You are shooting digital??? Ditto for all the other steps...

Just my one peso... :)

[iandol]

A few more tidbits about the 5D mkII

"Hard panning in the clips looks good and it seems like Canon have managed the timing of the shutter very well."
http://nrkbeta.no/video-test-clips-from-canon-5d-mark-ii-gets-analyzed/

A little bit of the footage shot by Vincent Laforet: the hard panning (in-car shot) on the 5D looks OK as well as one can tell on such a bad capture:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XggG7iFfoCk

Will be great to see how much better the DSMC will be :-)

[dalen johnson]

A few more tidbits about the 5D mkII

"Hard panning in the clips looks good and it seems like Canon have managed the timing of the shutter very well."
http://nrkbeta.no/video-test-clips-from-canon-5d-mark-ii-gets-analyzed/

A little bit of the footage shot by Vincent Laforet: the hard panning (in-car shot) on the 5D looks OK as well as one can tell on such a bad capture:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XggG7iFfoCk

Will be great to see how much better the DSMC will be :-)

Sounds good...but if you take a closer look at the article it says he uses an expensive video tripod.

In a thread on dpreview one person posted that you would need a video tripod that was the cost (or more ?) of the camera to get good results.

So it will be interesting how much this plays into the quality of pans...without it is it just another Nikon 90? (did I get the number right? all these camera numbers being thrown around left and right.) :)

Peace

dAlen

[iandol]

I doubt it is as jelly-bad as the Nikon even sans-tripod, somewhere in the comments he says a lot of stuff was hand-held IINM... And yes, the numbers are way confusing - the subtle act of putting a D either in front or behind a number defining brand and model identity is hardly transparent. Scarlet, Epic, One, Monstro; much better!!!

[Santiago Marti]

The RED revolution is simple, you have the owner and the brains of a brand, reading your posts as you write them, really looking at our requests, answering questions, etc. priceless.
yes, they also make a really good camera at a really low price pushing the industry ahead, and sharing an incredible amount of passion with us, the users.
i will stick to red as long as they continue being red. this is not apple or another snobbish brand. these guys are really pushing things, and i and many more want to be a part of this revolution, for as long as it lasts.

[RobertP]

Mr. BobSimon, you have got to be the most ignorant person on these boards. You're just full of it, aren't you? You remind me of Ken Rockwell.

Canon has their own sensor development fabrication plants. The Canon sensors are proprietary. They have NOTHING to do with SONY.

Canon DSLRs use Canon sensors that are NOT available to ANYONE ELSE.

Nikon has been using Sony sensors, but recently, the D3 and D700 cameras have used sensors that are supposedly designed by Nikon, but perhaps Sony had something to do with those as well.

[swardo]

...their Sensors have similar technical designs and they all get stamped out from the same Sony Fab... Canon makes a line of lenses for Nikon... they even have similar processors and similar microcode.. Great capitalist competition? .. or, something fishy here...

that simply is not true no matter how many times you say it. Every single Canon DSLR ever made has been equipped with a Canon sensor. Sony has made sensors in the past for Canon's P&S division but never for a DSLR.

[Steven M. Bailey]

I know that some of nikons older sensors were all made by sony and some entire lines of there 3-7 mp stills were recalled for sensor failure. I am sending back my coolpix 5700 for a second sensor replacement. The first one lasted a few years, the second one lasted about 3 weeks. Its an older camera but a Great p&s when the sensor isn't shot.

[swardo]

Consumers watch these videos on their TV which is only 1080p. So, these companies make a 1080p output from their cameras. You can connect your camera straight to the TV and watch the video.

D90 and MKII are real cameras that you can shoot and watch video on TV. DSMC is an imaginary camera at this time. Scarlet has been announced but nobody has touched it. You cannot compare real cameras with imaginary cameras. when DSMC become reality, if it ever become reality, then we can compare.

the only problem is the quote you disputed highlights the features of the RED-ONE which is every bit as real as a D90 or 5DII. (but with vastly superior results)

[swardo]

...so yes comparing the real RED ONE against a real D90 or 5DII video capabilities is perfectly valid.

[Evin Grant]

The biggest challenge for the DSMC (and epic for that matter) is sensitivity.
The DSLRs that are and will be shooting video in the next 6 months will have extraordinary low light sensitivity. Both the Nikon D3 and the Canon 5DmII have substantially better low light ability than the Red One. I fully expect the Monstro sensor to be on par. Where the DSLRs will lag for quite a while is in compression. Mpeg4/Mjpeg is just not a professional format. No matter how you cut it (no pun intended) there just isn't any way professional filmmakers will adopt those compression schemes for serious work. Redcode has proven it's self time and again, if Epic and the DSMC can match C&Ns sensitivity and bring Redcode to the table they WILL dominate.

The other issue is simple film style shooting. Vincent Laforet seems to think he can produce a 5DmII video shoot that rivals a real commercial, but I doubt he has any of the more complex and common shots that require pulling focus or complex operating or having an agency hanging out in video village. DSLRs simply do not lend themselves to cinema style shooting very well. But there is no doubt that the first shot over the bow of the Red One is here.
Don't forget the 5DmII also doesn't do 24P!

[reality]

IMHO, the RED One was the first shot over the bow of the DSLR guys but they didn't really notice.

Low noise at low frame rates is easy. The challenge is doing full sensor at speed and doing it with all the features and compression. Will Canon listen when we ask for multiple monitor outs, etc.?

[Ajit_AP]

The idea brought by several people here that these Japanese companies are somehow plotting who gets what is ridiculous. Nikon, Canon (and Sony) are incredibly competitive. The Japanese corporate tradition is stiff competition but mindful of not letting your competitors completely fail. Currently, there is no Japanase DSLR company, as far as I can think of, that is close to such a collapse.

Couple of years ago, when Canon was whopping some serious ass, these comments would not have been made. Because Nikon has stepped up, people assume it is some kind of conspiracy. Yeesh!

I am kinda glad Red is challenging these companies. American and independent is very much up my alley. But Red One is not close to a perfect product. If Jim thinks so, then he needs a dose of skepticism.

So jumping on other projects where the main project is not complete and where other projects have easily slipped to the wayside, one has to question whether this is a wise choice.

If Red played the cards right, I think they can challenge Sony in the video market. They have a excellent group of people. But to jump in the DSLR world is a waste of resources.

These DSLR's have tons of little ittie bittie features that Red has to get right. Can Red do it? I am doubtful.

Here is why:

Red is too focused on power. 5k, 4k, 3k, 2k, full sensor. Epic. Blah Blah. Many users think that is enough. I don't. Red is a feature film camera. That's it. But 95% of uses will need something else.

My guess for the Red DSMC is that instead of relying upon the clicking of the button at the right button like you would in a DSLR, the DSMC will make a raw movie file that you can pull a still out or make a movie out of. This will be revolutionary but also incredibly annoying. Imagine being a photographer and having to filter through hundreds of photos to find the right one. Sometimes choice can be crippling. It also makes the photographer somewhat irrelevant. (again, this is just a guess of how the DSMC will work)

The Red philosophy of providing raw power and then letting users do what they want with it will work in the near future but it is not sustainable. Because at some point, there is something as having too much power. There is ceiling. When the competition reaches that ceiling they will be ahead of Red in implementing that power. It is not that Red can't match the implementation but it will be difficult for Red because it has not been through such a detailed process.

[pango]

Maybe an HD capable successor of Panasonic G1 (see announcement of a "prototype" on dpreview.com) is a more serious competition to your DSMC than the video DSLRs: It has a foldout screen and aa good electronic viewfinder and is thus in principle much more usable for video than the DLSRs which lack the foldout screen and the viewfinders of which go blind in video. This successor will do HD (in which quality?), OK, that is less than Scarlet, but it allows for interchangable optics and lower DOF.

[swardo]

My guess for the Red DSMC is that instead of relying upon the clicking of the button at the right button like you would in a DSLR, the DSMC will make a raw movie file that you can pull a still out or make a movie out of. This will be revolutionary but also incredibly annoying. Imagine being a photographer and having to filter through hundreds of photos to find the right one. Sometimes choice can be crippling. It also makes the photographer somewhat irrelevant. (again, this is just a guess of how the DSMC will work)

If that's considered annoying then I can't wait to be annoyed. This camera (if implemented correctly and i have all the confidence it will) is going to open so many doors for a combination photographer/ videographer like myself.

[reality]

The Red philosophy of providing raw power and then letting users do what they want with it will work in the near future but it is not sustainable. Because at some point, there is something as having too much power. There is ceiling. When the competition reaches that ceiling they will be ahead of Red in implementing that power. It is not that Red can't match the implementation but it will be difficult for Red because it has not been through such a detailed process.

Wow. How incredibly narrow minded and myopic. It's the same reason why no one else attempted to do what Red did with the Red One.

[Kellan O'Connor]

As creative as Your post is, I totally disagree... EVERY single step You have described in the "Lasagna Workflow" applies to digital as well. Do You really skip "all day prepping the noodles and making the sauce, grating the cheese, and grinding the meat (pre-production)" just because You are shooting digital??? Ditto for all the other steps...

Just my one peso... :)

I am sorry. I totally agree with you as well. I became so caught up in the creative structure of my post I didn't even think about that detail. the "all day prepping the noodles and making the sauce, grating the cheese, and grinding the meat" is more applicable with a post production linear editing.
Thanks for the correction...:)

I mainly wanted to steer the conversation from the canon Sony Nikon chip argument. It is pointless in this thread... can we please continue with relevant posts about practical differences between RED and competition, rather than personal feuds? Thanks.

[reality]

It's interesting that the last couple of 'opinionated' posts are all from guys with under 10 posts who all just signed up. Trolls I say. Or are they employees from competitors?

[Matthew Verkler]

You have a lot of nerves fella. Remember that this is RED forum. You have to be very respectful of RED and the people behind it and the red community. Otherwise your ass will be deleted out of here.
You must start with: " RED is the Greatest thing ever invented by God, after creating Univerase," "Jim is a billionaire, so he is right", ..etc.
Then you can do some customary Japan bashing etc. Remember, nothing Sony/Canon/Nikon does is ever as good as RED. Red is revolutionary. Red is .. I don't know.. say something superlative.
You can express your ferocity by using words like mysterium and monstro and DSMC .
Otherwise the fanboys will descend on you like a pack of wolves..

I agree with you there is no conspiracy between the japanese camera companies.
The fact that they all independently sitting in their secret bunkers invent the same features and technologies and manufacturing and pricing at the same exact moment is sheer coincidence.

I am an enthusiastic Red customer, but I found this post to be hilarious. It's okay to not take ourselves too seriously.

As far as "conspiracy between the japanese camera companies" goes, is it a conspiracy to work together to compete well? Japan has a well-known industrial policy that emerged after WWII. Sure, they compete very hard against each other, but they also work together when it suits their purposes. The point is, they are smart and they compete well. There's nothing wrong with that. Whether or not they practice "free trade" or not is another subject. But they are in the game; and now Red is too, and Red is changing a lot of rules, just like Japanese companies did in the past. I personally hope that Red inspires other companies in my country, the U.S., to compete more effectively.

I can't wait to see what Red does next; that is what this thread is all about.

[shawngs]

Introducing the Red VectorCam.... ISO 512k, Zero Noise, 360fps, Compatible with all Red/Canon/Nikon/Zeiss/Leica Lenses, Modular Shoulder Mount and/or Traditional SLR Form Factor, Removable 1TB Flash HDD, Price: $999!

[Christo]

This is my first post, and I am not here to troll but engage in the discussion of this camera as I am both a professional still photographer and a pro videographer/director (ok still working on getting paid for performing the duties of that third title).


My question, Mr. Jannard, is this: will the DSMC feature different ISO speeds for both stills and video? I often shoot with a Sony Z1U, and after shooting with my Canon dSLR, I always lament the lack of ISO/ASA speed settings when shooting with it.


As far as I know the Red One does not feature this, because, unfortunately I have not used one (or any other extremely high end digital camera yet). From my days of shooting 16mm film, the flexibility to change to a higher speed stock was great even if it was limited when compared to modern dslrs (iso 50 to 25,600).


There's something to be said for switching ISOs. It changes the shooter's expectations, and is more satisfying than fiddling with gain settings, such as those found on pro dv/hdv cameras. Since this appears to be a still camera first with equally good motion picture capabilities it seems reasonable to conclude it will have ISO settings for shooting stills, but will they carry over to the video functionality.


I read that the Arri D20 has ISO settings. I wonder if it is a matter of time for video to evolve and emulate the way ISOs can be switched in the manner of dSLRs.

[Jannard]

This is my first post, and I am not here to troll but engage in the discussion of this camera as I am both a professional still photographer and a pro videographer/director (ok still working on getting paid for performing the duties of that third title).


My question, Mr. Jannard, is this: will the DSMC feature different ISO speeds for both stills and video? I often shoot with a Sony Z1U, and after shooting with my Canon dSLR, I always lament the lack of ISO/ASA speed settings when shooting with it.


As far as I know the Red One does not feature this, because, unfortunately I have not used one (or any other extremely high end digital camera yet). From my days of shooting 16mm film, the flexibility to change to a higher speed stock was great even if it was limited when compared to modern dslrs (iso 50 to 25,600).


There's something to be said for switching ISOs. It changes the shooter's expectations, and is more satisfying than fiddling with gain settings, such as those found on pro dv/hdv cameras. Since this appears to be a still camera first with equally good motion picture capabilities it seems reasonable to conclude it will have ISO settings for shooting stills, but will they carry over to the video functionality.


I read that the Arri D20 has ISO settings. I wonder if it is a matter of time for video to evolve and emulate the way ISOs can be switched in the manner of dSLRs.

You can shoot the RED ONE with a multiple of ISO settings... and most do. You are virtually "stretching the image", but that is really what you are doing with a DSLR. You are pushing the ISO until the noise becomes objectionable given the situation.

Jim

[Kyle Hance]

Please keep up the skepticism. It is very good motivation around here.

Jim

If skepticism will help motivate this project forward even more, then allow me this:

What are you thinking? You actually think you can do something better than Canon or Nikon?! Have you seen stuff from they're cameras? They're the Holy Grail(s) of photography! They've been the de-facto standard for YEARS. NOBODY ever has been or will be able to outdo them- including RED (tm)...

How'd I do? :sarcasm:

[Jannard]

If skepticism will help motivate this project forward even more, then allow me this:

What are you thinking? You actually think you can do something better than Canon or Nikon?! Have you seen stuff from they're cameras? They're the Holy Grail(s) of photography! They've been the de-facto standard for YEARS. NOBODY ever has been or will be able to outdo them- including RED (tm)...

How'd I do? :sarcasm:

Perfect.

Jim

[Tom Lowe]

Lmao.

[Martin Weiss]

Here's a great summary of what makes RED so differently special:
Perfect.

[Jannard]

Try this one out...

Jim

http://www.scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=1047

[Evin Grant]

I think it's a smart move to combine Scarlet and the DSMC. It is where this is all going.

[Gunleik Groven]

I guess MysteriumX will be an internal build. Monstro is next...

[Jannard]

We are skipping a generation in design and possibilities. Someone just challenged us to compete in the big leagues. We accept.

Jim

[Shawn Nelson]

Dang, this is fascinating to watch. Hopefully you didnt lose too much in skipping that generation.

[Jannard]

Dang, this is fascinating to watch. Hopefully you didnt lose too much in skipping that generation.

Only gained...

Jim

[Evin Grant]

Thanks Jim, for not taking the easy (Sony, Canon, Nikon) approach to planned obsolescence. Everyone seems to be excited about the 5DmII video over at Vincent Laforet's blog but that camera will not find the true DSLR/DCinema hybrid market without 24P or a professional codec. But you know that already don't you?

[Jannard]

Thanks Jim, for not taking the easy (Sony, Canon, Nikon) approach to planned obsolescence. Everyone seems to be excited about the 5DmII video over at Vincent Laforet's blog but that camera will not find the true DSLR/DCinema hybrid market without 24P or a professional codec. But you know that already don't you?

I think so... :-)

Jim

[Sanjin Jukic]

A quote from Vincent Laforet's blog:

"A top commercial film editor who who regularly edits RED camera footage -

and has seen the raw footage from the 5D MKII -

says the 5D MKII is “far superior to the RED camera” in terms of low light performance…"


LINK>> (http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/09/20/something-very-interesting-is-comingboth-to-this-blog-and-to-our-industry/#more-1085)>

I wouldn't say that.

Two days ago I just tested Leica Noctilux 50mm f/1.0 on RED with IMS (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19267) and

would say that Canon 5D MkII with Canon 50mm f/1.2 L lens never can beat RED with Noctilux.

RED just needs a lens that is fast like a Leica Noctilux and nobody can compete with that in all industry.

It's not about a camera it's about a lens when we are talking about available light shooting.

RED Mysterium has enough DR and latitude for a Noctilux type of lenses.

[Jannard]

A quote from Vincent Laforet's blog:

"A top commercial film editor who who regularly edits RED camera footage -

and has seen the raw footage from the 5D MKII -

says the 5D MKII is “far superior to the RED camera” in terms of low light performance…"


LINK>> (http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/09/20/something-very-interesting-is-comingboth-to-this-blog-and-to-our-industry/#more-1085)>

I wouldn't say that.

Two days ago I just tested Leica Noctilux 50mm f/1.0 on RED with IMS (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19267) and

would say that Canon 5D MkII with Canon 50mm f/1.2 L lens never can beat RED with Noctilux.

RED just needs a lens that is fast like a Leica Noctilux and nobody can compete with that in all industry.

It's not about a camera it's about a lens when we are talking about available light shooting.

RED Mysterium has enough DR and latitude for a Noctilux type of lenses.

No comment on skew? And compression codec? And no 24P? I have to wonder if the still guys know what to look for?

Jim

[Sanjin Jukic]

No comment on skew? And compression codec? And no 24P? I have to wonder if the still guys know what to look for?

Jim

Jim,

For sure that average Canon shooter doesn't know anything about that.

Canon 5D MkII HD video is just a sugar that goes with Canon's 5D MkII launch and

also Vincent Laforet's type of blog "blurb" is a part of that advertising campaign.

And this sugar is just a "sugar" and not a digital cinema quality video.

[pango]

Two days ago I just tested Leica Noctilux 50mm f/1.0 on RED with IMS (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19267) and

would say that Canon 5D MkII with Canon 50mm f/1.2 L lens never can beat RED with Noctilux.



Reshooting "Barry Lyndon"? :innocent:

A bad argument for a camera that uses a smaller sensor.

Canon DSLRs are nice because they take almost any glass you like (whatever your reasons may be), including Leica R, Contax/Yashica mount, etc ... . Leica M is an exception but not a religion. For instance, there are those Zeiss T* lenses, or whatever you wish to put. This is why the 5D II could be more fun than the just abandoned Scarlett concept for people with "modest" money. And besides, the sensor used for video is 36mmx20.25mm and so the requirements in terms of performance of the glass are even lower. To get the same DOF as RED One with a 50/1.0, you could take an 80/1.2 or 80/1.4 if that makes you happy.

Given the strong compression that the video undergoes, I think that optics are a non-issue for video quality concerning the 5D II.

There are several issues where Canon deliberately crippled the video function, that is a different topic. However, why would they cripple it if they did not think about building a pro-Camera with a big sensor?!

[Sander de Regt]

Shoot a kid's birthday party at 1/500th and it will look like "Saving Private Ryan."
I've been to a couple of kid's birthday parties and Saving Private Ryan was a sea of tranqulity compared to those parties!

[Evin Grant]

For sure the biggest challenge to Red and all the other D-Cinema manufacturers in the next generation will be sensitivity. The 5DmII is not a serious contender for real production. It's hobbled by among other things, Mpeg 4, 30P, Skew (According to Jim). But it won't take Canon or Nikon very long to figure these out. Lucky for us Jim and Co. have the momentum and the will to get there first, and to do it in a way that will consider the needs of D-Cinema as well.

[Jannard]

I don't want to be attacked by fanboy gangs for doubting God himself.

But, don't you think you are nitpicking here. Remeber you are comparing a tiny pocket sized DSLR for $2700 with
a Humongous, unwieldy, cumbersome, monster RED for $17500 + handles+nuts+bolts+LCD+Mic+Plate+Cables+8G cards that last 3 minutes each+etc+etc for $45000.(Or, in otherwords, I think MKII is 1/20 the price of usable RED set up.)

MKII is a very low priced, pocket sized, easy to use, direct connection to TV, nothing else to buy camera that takes fantastic stills and wonderful videos DSLR. 30P works fine for TV. (1080p TV is where we ordinary humans watch our videos. Not 4K projection screen, after a cumbersome post process.)

I don't think skew, a consumer compression scheme and 30P only is nit-picking... unless you want to shoot home movies. Do you really believe that this camera is worthy of shooting episodics? Really? Have you ever been to a movie set?

RED is a professional camera system. And you are tying to make a Canon 5D MK whatever a professional motion capture system at any price? What exactly is your point?

Jim

[Sanjin Jukic]

Reshooting "Barry Lyndon"? :innocent:

A bad argument for a camera that uses a smaller sensor.

Canon DSLRs are nice because they take almost any glass you like (whatever your reasons may be), including Leica R, Contax/Yashica mount, etc ... . Leica M is an exception but not a religion. For instance, there are those Zeiss T* lenses, or whatever you wish to put. This is why the 5D II could be more fun than the just abandoned Scarlett concept for people with "modest" money. And besides, the sensor used for video is 36mmx20.25mm and so the requirements in terms of performance of the glass are even lower. To get the same DOF as RED One with a 50/1.0, you could take an 80/1.2 or 80/1.4 if that makes you happy.

Given the strong compression that the video undergoes, I think that optics are a non-issue for video quality concerning the 5D II.

There are several issues where Canon deliberately crippled the video function, that is a different topic. However, why would they cripple it if they did not think about building a pro-Camera with a big sensor?!

The skew and too much motion blur that Jim and me were talking about you could find in any Canon 5DMkII hD video.

The example photo see below.

The example with too much motion blur of Canon 5DMkII HD video download here (7.1 MB, double click to download) >>> (http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/Canon5DMarkII.mov)

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/Canon5DMarkII_crop.jpg


Also, btw, I can swap many types of lenses on my RED using IMS:

Arri PL Mount, Panavision Mount, BNC-R Mount, Professional F-Mount, Nikon F-Mount, Canon EF-Mount, Canon FD-Mount, Contax Mount, Leica-R Mount and Leica-M Mount.

Canon 5DMkII cannot swap more types of lenses than me with IMS on my RED.

[Jannard]

If I were Canon, I would be petrified at the prospect of someone actually moving the camera during motion capture... even at 30fps.

Jim

[redluser]

If I were Canon, I would be petrified at the prospect of someone actually moving the camera during motion capture.

Jim

If I were Canon, I would be petrified. Period.

[Jannard]

If I were Canon, I would be petrified. Period.

Welcome... what the hell are you doing up so late?

Jim

[Sindre Saebo]

So much activity on this forum, forgive me if someone already asked this: Does the announcement over at Scarletuser imply that DSMC and Scarlet will be merged into one camera?

Sindre Saebo
Oslo, Norway

[Sanjin Jukic]

If I were Canon, I would be petrified at the prospect of someone actually moving the camera during motion capture... even at 30fps.

Jim

Yes Jim,

we all with you here because we know that you are a holder of "Magic Sword" knowledge that makes DSLR CMOS sensor so "cinematic" :sorcerer: .

[dalen johnson]

MKII is a very low priced, pocket sized, ...

I have some pretty big pockets, literally, and it wont fit in mine...so not sure what kind of pockets you have to pop camera and lens into. :)

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
Only mention the above, because unlike the Mark II you would have been able to put the scarlet (Lens and all) in your pocket.
(At least thats what a pocket camera means to me...again, those big baggy types.) :)

[pango]

Canon 5DMkII cannot swap more types of lenses than me with IMS on my RED.

And you will be able to use all glass that works on EPIC on RED ONE as well, but not the other way around. That does not make RED ONE the better camera, does it?

[Jannard]

And you will be able to use all glass that works on EPIC on RED ONE as well, but not the other way around. That does not make RED ONE the better camera, does it?

All glass that works with the RED ONE will work with Epic... and visa-versa.

Jim