What about docs?

[mike70]

After seeing the camera, what are people's impressions of the red as a documentary/verite tool, in single shooter situations (or with sound man only)? The clarity of the footage blew me away, but when I saw the camera mounted with all of its rails and boxes, I thought, uh oh.

A bit of background: I'm not a shooter by trade ( I was a feature film editor), but I shot my last feature length doc with the panny dvx100 and loved it as a tool and loved the 24 look. Even on a big screen (digital projection from Digibeta master), the footage looks great. But SD is dead, and from what I've read, HDV is DOA, which leaves me looking at HDCAM or red.

I went to Las Vegas to answer questions, and to some extent I did: I'm reading on various threads about having to use a tape measure for focus, but I played with the evf and lcd for quite a while (even had the guys move the cable so I could see how the lcd reacted when tilting the camera), and I felt that both viewfinders allowed for accurate focusing, even in the booth's low light situation.

Still, as a novice shooter, I was relying on many of the prosumer crutches of the dvx: altho I never used auto focus, I did rely on auto exposure to get me in the ballpark, and the image stabilization really helped with the amount of hand-held shooting I did (60 hours). And the camera's lightness was a plus.

I watched my film again last night and found myself wondering if I could replicate the shots with the Red--or would it be out of focus half the time and shaky as hell.

I've ordered the camera, but I'm taking much on faith. I would love to hear from those shooters who intend to use the camera for verite shooting.

[Fix]

well if you want to show your doc at one of the bigger channels like discovery HD/national geographic HD etc. you got to go HDCAM or something better which leaves you to 35mm or other high end digital cameras like the Red. For the price i would guess the red is absolutely a killer also in the doc marked.

[Ken Corben]

HDCAM is a great HD verite solution - they're is even a new stripped down version that does 1080i for only $60K with an optional board for 25p. Add batteries/charger, a good Fujinon lens and you might get out the door for under $90k after taxes. If you have this kind of money to drop and prefer to remain in tape based media then you benefit from the internal filter wheels, ENG type lenses and the other video familiar technology. Of course you need to pay for digital dailies from the HDCAM masters if you plan to edit it yourself or drop the additional $50K+ for an HDCAM VTR plus the Kona or AJA computer interfaces add another $5-10K

OR

REDONE with Red 18-50mm zoom, red drives, red batteries, EVF, redrail etc maybe $35K all in? And you are 4K plug and play with redcine and FCP 6. That kinda' answers the HDCAM vs REDONE question for me but I am a professional shooter so your next question is valid - will it work for you on your specific applications - I would say with training and practice - ABSOLUTELY. I know what you mean when you reference the cine style set up for the camera display at NAB - beautiful to my eye - but keep in mind this cine style set up is akin to the panavision camera setups we use on features/MOW's and TV series where there are literally five professionals supporting the one camera (four if you don't count the film loader). There in lies the sophistication of simplicity for the REDONE modular concept. Strip it down and rebuild it for EFP and it will also be just as beautiful yet far more streamlined, lightweight, etc.

I am really looking forward to seeing the RED EFP rig that Gibby builds. He's probably shot every possible format and configuration available in the verite non-fiction genre since before I knew girls did in fact NOT have cooties. The EFP set up will shake itself out long before your camera ships allowing you plenty of time to learn from this great community and master the simple math behind DOF, ND filtration and fstops that will be crucial to your next DOC film project.

YOU CAN DO IT...

caveat:There are always exceptions - low light conditions verite style with the RED would lead to focus challenges if for example your DOC is on the late night drinking habits of Paris Hilton.

[Jiri Bakala]

Mike, I am dealing with the same issues - eventhough I am a professional DP. Some of the big questions still are:
-long form docs - dealing with a lot of footage in the field
-verite - the advantage of smaller less obtrusive camera
-travel with a small crew and to a tricky locations - smaller camera can pass for consumer camcorder while Red won't

However, all these apply equally to full size broadcast cameras as well. I think that my solution will be Red for good size budgets with full support, while something like the Sony V1U or their new XDCAM EX for the rest. As with everything, there isn't one solution for every situation.

I always think of MacGillivray Freeman Films taking IMAX to Everest (they are there right now for a sequel) and then feel more inspired and encouraged - you can take Red anywhere...

[Jason Sturgis]

Mike,
Thanks for starting this thread. I, like bakalaj, are having the same issues about what it will be like shooting a doc with limited crew in far away locations. How to get a easy workflow and provide secure backups when you are out in the field for a month- questions bouncing around in my mellon.
From what I have read on this forum, it looks like there are some pretty good solutiuons out there for workflow and backup. Who would have believed 2 years ago that any of this would be possible with 4k. Thanks to the Red team, it is a reality.
Sharkguy,thanks for your input. I am also looking forward to some of the discussions about the stripped down versions for REDONE. Also to hear how your underwater housing set up is coming- very cool!!
I still have a long way to go in my REDucation but this forum has been huge in helping me along the path. Thanks all!

[Zack Birlew]

One RED Drive can fit about 3 hours of 4K Redcode, I'd imagine there would be a lot more for 720P-2K resolutions below that. If you need even more footage, I'd start thinking about more RED Drives and, more importantly, more batteries!

Also, RED Drives are very lightweight, so they won't weigh you down at all if you're on the move.

As far as backups go, there's a lot of choices for hard drives at the moment, whether single or in RAID arrays.

[Martin Drew]

Bear in mind that you can shoot 2K with a s16 lens or a B4 lens. In this scenario DOF will be pretty much the same as for 2/3" cameras. That is the beauty of Red it is very versatile.

M

[Mike the beginner]

One RED Drive can fit about 3 hours of 4K Redcode, I'd imagine there would be a lot more for 720P-2K resolutions below that. If you need even more footage, I'd start thinking about more RED Drives and, more importantly, more batteries!

Also, RED Drives are very lightweight, so they won't weigh you down at all if you're on the move.

As far as backups go, there's a lot of choices for hard drives at the moment, whether single or in RAID arrays.

I am glad you mentioned batteries Jack. I read somewhere that one battery should last about two hours. Looks like i might not get away with just having two batteries for six hours of recording.

Mike the beginner

[Volker Ehlers]

Hi Mike,

I have shot a couple of documentaries on MINI35. It is a similar situation where (imitating) a larger format brings advantages but makes shooting more difficult. We often use Cooke 25-250mm on docs and my focus puller knows what that means.
Giving him an eye mark on the fly by zooming in and judging focus seems only reliable with a HD-SDI monitor with pixel to pixel function. And monitoring is sometimes just not possible.

As for hand held we love using a 35mm Zeiss SuperPrime. To get a nice portrait shot we usually work with object distances of 3-5 feet. With a T2 (very often) we generally face a depth of filed of less than a feet. Beautiful but it doesn't take much movement until you need to pull!Hence the need for a good focus puller.

Shooting with only Sound assistant and no focus puller might be easier on windowed 2K using S-16 lenses. It would also allow you to use zooms hand held and you could pick eye focus for yourself.

I certainly love "cinematic" docs but would want to shoot them without my AC. What looks "sharp" on a lower resolution can be "nearly sharp" on full resolution where suddenly you see that extra detail and its on the back of the head/ tip on the nose - rather than the eye where you want it to be.
Hope that helps
Volker

[Jason Sturgis]

I guess people shooting docs will have to see if they want to go lighter and shoot 2K(windowed sensor using S-16 lenses) OR stay in 4K and have that image for your master. I think that I will end up shooting 4K and go with a potentialy more cumbersome set up. However, as people start to use the camera I am sure there will be some pretty trick methods to keep things compact and still get the goods in 4k.
Also, does anyone know if they have phased out the 18-85mm zoom for the 18-50 zoom?

[JustinGD]

YOU CAN DO IT...

Can this apply to me too? Sharkguy, your explanation answered a lot of my questions too. I can't wait to start learning. Thanks.

[Damien Molineaux]

We have a doc which was initially planned for this summer, but the shoot has just been pushed back to Sept.-Oct. Since we're supposed to get our Red in August, we are now considering shooting it with it. I have a Zeiss S16 zoom so we're planning to shoot in 2K, also because it allows more footage per GB. Backup will be done in the field simultaneously to two HDs (in Raid 1), which will be carried separately. We'll probably use 750 GB disks as their price is coming down due to the arrival of 1 TB drives. Of course the lens will have to be tested out first (and the camera). Anyhow, these are my choices for doc.

Cheers,
Damien

[Fix]

Im a little bit curious about traveling with this cam. That is, plane, train etc. Its not like HDV or a HDCAM.

Anyways, think about this. Like maybe 5 years from now, you go from a-b by plane (long distanse), travel into the jungel, shoot for 12 hours, the happy tribe doing the moon dance (Guess they have figure out some better Hard drives and battery at that time), go back to your camp and transfer all the data in a couple of hours over the Satellit nett to your happy-cutter back home. The best thing is. When you get back home the doc is viewing 1080p on the nett in all its glory. instant-doc for short :)

[donatello b]

within 2 weeks of receiving RED 103 i'll be flying to salt lake city to shoot a interview for a doc ... i plan to travel the lightest i can - cam, 2 batts(no charger), lens ... will rent tripod etc in SLC ... planning to carry camera on board plane ... from that shoot i'll learn something about traveling with camera ...i'll let you all know about traveling experience ... as of now will shoot 4k for a 720p project...

[Steve Sherrick]

It was mentioned that the 18-85mm was put on the back burner. Not sure if it's dead yet, just pushed back at the moment.

[Video Sceptic]

After watching the Red screening, I was blown away with the quality. Thought Red is totally cutting edge.

After seeing the 18-50 lens instead of the promised 5:1 zoom, I thought to myself this lens will not work for documentary shooting. No chance for cut aways in a cinema verite situation, and not long enough for an interview. Typical portrait lens => 85mm. One of the Red team members suggested since I had 4K footage, I could zoom in in post and get my close ups. How do I plan that while hand holding? Using a 2/3" lens or a 16mm lens is not taking advantage of the Red promise--full 35mm depth of field. Using a high quality 2/3" HD zoom with the 3500.00 B4 adaptor = mondo bucks. Another suggestion was buy a Cooke 5:1 on the open market. Not sure what that might run. Perhaps 2X the cost of the Red body?

I asked another Red fellow about Raid 0 safety issues, what happened to Raid 1, he told me, that that I might want to shoot with the Flash chips. Again flash chips will not work for a Doc.

Red seems like a fantastic system, but it still needs to prove itself day in and day out. As an owner/operator, I can't invest that kind of capital without a track record or client base. It is a tremendous bargain going up against the Sony F-900 or a Viper, but the original DVX on steroids concept does not apply. A basic rig with the 3:1 zoom costs 10 times as much as the DVX. Treating Red as an experiment without a built in client base requires very deep pockets.

[Ken Corben]

After seeing the 18-50 lens instead of the promised 5:1 zoom, I thought to myself this lens will not work for documentary shooting. No chance for cut aways in a cinema verite situation, and not long enough for an interview. Typical portrait lens => 85mm.

Video Sceptic are you French? LOL.

Dude, don't be so hard on yourself or traditionalist in the genre. It's all about telling a great story and the demand for HD format is exploding. No cutaways- HUH? Also, if the traditional 85mm portrait look is a must keep in mind the math:

A CMOS digital lens format conversion factor of 1.5 means that the RED 18-50 is a 25-75 35mm lens equivalent - that's pretty darn close for the price. Keep in mind it's also about pushing the envelope in applying HD technology. The amount of lighting is similar and the difference in look between an 85 and 75 will only be noticed by you (and your DP?). Also, important to note RED has always said and continues to say, "specifications subject to change." No lenses have ever been "PROMISED."


I asked another Red fellow about Raid 0 safety issues, what happened to Raid 1, he told me, that that I might want to shoot with the Flash chips. Again flash chips will not work for a Doc.

HUH? The 32GB flash will record 25-30 minutes of 4K redcode RAW once formatted and the change out time is what 15 seconds. Why does that not work? In the old days we had to change friggin' magazines - geez, changing a tape takes more time than changing a flash card. I do not understand why it doesn't work?


Red seems like a fantastic system, but it still needs to prove itself day in and day out. As an owner/operator, I can't invest that kind of capital without a track record or client base. It is a tremendous bargain going up against the Sony F-900 or a Viper, but the original DVX on steroids concept does not apply. A basic rig with the 3:1 zoom costs 10 times as much as the DVX. Treating Red as an experiment without a built in client base requires very deep pockets.

OK, Now I can finally agree with you. The system is currently BETA and does have to be fleshed out for our genre, but that's the beauty of it really. If you ordered one today by the time your camera was ready to ship in 8-12 months RED originated DOCS will already be airing and screening and this forum, as well as other sources, will have shared the trials and tribulations as well as the solutions. I would say that a $1750 fully refundable deposit is a rather low risk investment. But that's just my opinion.

[overlandfilms]

I'm still tied to (for the immediate future) HDCam 1080i 59.94 deliverables. My people tell me that until something changes for the widely-accepted and adopted better in digital archiving, work for the tiffany HD network(s) requires a tape-out delivery and storage masters.

I don't know what the Big Four are doing, but I don't work for them.

[Video Sceptic]

The slight against the French shows a lack of artistic reverence for certain cultural powerhouses of the Western World--Hugo, Godard, Truffaut, Tartuffe, Monet, Gaugan. And a camera maker like Aaton. Sounds like USA tunnel vision dude. I think Jannard is French as well. Don't bit the hand that feeds you RED. LOL.

This forum's main design, aside from selling cameras, is to generate constructive ideas on ways to improve RED product. More power to RED for it's ambitions.

What I presented in my analysis were legitimate concernts for both the documentary filmmaker and a wider market. It is imprudent to shoot RAID 0. RAID 1 is essential for peace of mind. Peace of mind, a flying above technical worries, releases that magificent, poetic inner French voice.
Unless you have an assistant standing next to you at all times to wrangle cards and feed the computer, forget Flash in a long form verite situation. Bring on the 5X zoom ASAP. Bring on RAID 1 ASAP. A program to monitor drive health would help too.
Long live France. Long live Jannard.

[Ken Corben]

Well Video Sceptic I can see that you and I are not going to agree on much. I studied filmmaking under Jean Pierre Gordin a student of Goddard - he laughed at my French jokes - my "crack" about you being French is a sense of humor that obviously fell on deaf ears.

I am a huge fan of Oscar winner Jacques Perrin's work and was honored when he said as much of my work. So much for the French tunnel vision Dude.

And for the life of me I will never understand how a 32 GB (25 minute record time) compact flash card will fail a verite long form film when the very French roots of verite come from 35 and 16mm film with 5-10 minute loads and a minimum of several minutes to "reload" a French made ACL or NPR.

I agree we disagree and may you find the solution to continue your success as a filmmaker for that is what really matters - not whether RED fails the verite long form genre.

c'est la vie

[Alexander Black]

Also, does anyone know if they have phased out the 18-85mm zoom for the 18-50 zoom?

I believe - but am not sure - that this is the case.

To the original poster, I think an HPX500 with a bunch of 16 and soon 32GB cards or a red is your best bet. Red will be more expensive and much higher quality, the HPX will put out standard HD and can be had with lens for $19k or so.

As others have mentioned, in your case it would probably make sense to use S16 lenses and windowed 2k so you have S16 style larger DoF (which means you don't necessarily have to have a puller) and you could get away with a stripped down "cageless" setup.

Still, the thing is no DVX100 - but then neither is an HPX. Both cameras have some heft, both will give you back problems if not used with care :)

[Brook Willard]

I believe - but am not sure - that this is the case.

As far as I know this is incorrect. The 18-85 has been put on hold/delay for now. An 18-85 reservation holder can switch their reservation to the 18-50 if they want... or they can wait for the 18-85 as they were originally promised.

[Alex D. da Silva]

At full 4K and film lenses, handheld run and gun docs will be hard, heavy and risky but not impossible.
Using a S16 lens or the B4 adaptor at 2k will make things a bit easier. This will give us a substantial higher resolution than 1080p or even in most cases S16mm.
The flash cards (or a few of them) are a great solution to make the whole set lighter and practical. I've just finished filming a doc with three 8 gigs P2 cards and it worked, so…
Anyway, soon we'll hear from many real life situations with their solutions and challenges.

[mike70]

Thanks, guys, very helpful discussion.

1. So,if we use 2k, the focusing problem is greatly reduced. Also, it probably negates one of Sceptic's objections. as the focal length will also increase. If it's 25-75 in 4k, what is it in 2k?

2. Eliminating the drive and going with the flash module would help with the weight, but I can see Sceptic's point re: load changes and the drive raid worries. I agree, Ken (hope you're feeling better), that a 30 minute load is great, but what will the modules cost and how many do you have to have to get you through the day? If they're $500 apiece, you would probably have 4 of them. that's two hours of shooting, which means that somehow, someone is going to have to download them at lunch, unless you've got another 4 for the afternoon. Of course, it if only takes 2 seconds to dowload them, I dont' see a problem with that, and then you've killed two birds (weight and raid 0) with one stone.

I have a question about the flash modules: if the 300gb drive gives you an hour and a half at 4k (or according to Stewart twice that at 2k) how can the 32gb flash module give you a half hour?

[Bruce Allen]

AOne of the Red team members suggested since I had 4K footage, I could zoom in in post and get my close ups. How do I plan that while hand holding? Using a 2/3" lens or a 16mm lens is not taking advantage of the Red promise--full 35mm depth of field. Using a high quality 2/3" HD zoom with the 3500.00 B4 adaptor = mondo bucks. Another suggestion was buy a Cooke 5:1 on the open market. Not sure what that might run. Perhaps 2X the cost of the Red body?


Actually, zooming in in post goes very well with hand-hold footage. Because if you are zooming in a lot, you have huge ability to stabilize the footage in post with the many, many available smooth-moving filters on the market right now. All of them require a little zoom-in to work their magic.



I asked another Red fellow about Raid 0 safety issues, what happened to Raid 1, he told me, that that I might want to shoot with the Flash chips. Again flash chips will not work for a Doc.


I think it's safer than HDCAM. Because you can make make many duplicate copies of your "master tapes" onto many hard drives every evening / lunch-time on a laptop. Also, if RAID dies on set, it'll probably let you know. So you can re-shoot. It's not always possible to re-shoot, I know, but better than stressing about tape heads like in the old days.



Red seems like a fantastic system, but it still needs to prove itself day in and day out. As an owner/operator, I can't invest that kind of capital without a track record or client base. It is a tremendous bargain going up against the Sony F-900 or a Viper, but the original DVX on steroids concept does not apply. A basic rig with the 3:1 zoom costs 10 times as much as the DVX. Treating Red as an experiment without a built in client base requires very deep pockets.

True! The shallowness of my pockets means I can't buy one either. But it does make the F-900 and Viper seem sorta silly. If you're talking in "investment" terms, would you rather buy a share in:
- a) a company that you know is 1/10th of it's true market worth, is not well-known, but has passionate backers with deep pockets who are in it for the long term (eg Red)
or
- b) a company that is overpriced but has been around for a long time (eg F-23, F-900, Varicam)
Oh, and the whole market is going down at the moment (depreciation of digital camera costs)...

I'd either not buy at all, buy Red, or rent Red and buy a cheap HDV cam like a HV20. The other expensive cameras seem crazy to me.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Milan Nikolic]

I am one man documentary crew. Can I handle RED ONE in the same manner. Discussion in this thread made me question that.

[Moir]

Pardon my inexperience, but isn't the applicability of Red linked to your intended production style? EFP isn't monolithic. If your projects(s) involve running around under enemy fire, with zero time for set-up, then it seems you would be better off with something smaller and cheaper.

Image quality under such scenarios is often secondary to dramatic content - even cell phone camera footage gets broadcast these days.

If, on the other hand, you have time to compose and properly expose your shots, I don't see why Red should not be a fantastic EFP camera.

I'm a single-handed shooter, but much of what I do is static - sitting in hides shooting tripod-mounted. I hope and believe Red will be an ideal camera for this sort of work.

[Steve Gibby]

If, on the other hand, you have time to compose and properly expose your shots, I don't see why Red should not be a fantastic EFP camera.

I'm a single-handed shooter, but much of what I do is static - sitting in hides shooting tripod-mounted. I hope and believe Red will be an ideal camera for this sort of work.

It will...

I've done lot of docs, including some Emmy Award winning docs: adventure travel, cultures, lifestyle, action sports, and nature, to name a few genres.

Accessorized and lensed correctly IMO RED One can be a superb mobile non-hardlined EFP camera - and I'll use my RED One's for exactly that, plus a multitude of cine-style projects too. I love shooting stock footage single-handed in mobile EFP style, and I'll be doing exactly that with my REDs in my "spare" time.

This thread should really be located in the "EFP and ENG with RED" forum, and it looks like many of the posters here could benefit from reading my EFP & ENG FAQ on that forum.

[Ken Corben]

I am one man documentary crew. Can I handle RED ONE in the same manner. Discussion in this thread made me question that.

Again, I'd say absolutely YOU CAN DO IT - I'm planning on it. It's not voodoo, it's a camera. Frame, focus and hit record. The main issue that may not be fully understood by us EFP guys with no cinema style background is focus. Yes there is the issue of adjustable shutter, frame rate and exposure settings that also may be new to some of us but it's simple and we'll save that for later.

I think it is important to clearly understand the focus concerns in 4K raised in reduser are primarily cinema-centric. Obviously the shot needs to be in focus no matter what but let's clearly define the concern so that shooters in EFP like you and me that are invested in REDONE and excited about its potential remain in focus:

Cinema style - DP's job is to conrol every photon that hits the film plane or CMOS sensor. To effectively paint with light. This is usually done in fstops between WFO and f4 depending on the lighting budgets. Typically more towards the lower end as less light is more from an artistic standpoint. There in lies the critical focus concern - the DOF (depth of field) at lower fstops.

EFP - Exterior daylight with REDONE is less "challenging" for focus since we are working at higher fstops where the DOF is far more forgiving. Take the Peter Jackson aerial footage shot at f8 - everything is in focus from 10' (?) to nearly infinity. You didn't see an AC racking focus on the fly in those shots. The fun challenge as a filmmaker with REDONE EFP in the field is selecting the right combination of ND and pola filters to achieve fabulous 4K images not shot HOT at f22 - this is assuming the camera rating of 320 in equatorial sunlight at mid-day. The result - washed out images that Jim refered to as "don't shoot everything at f22."

So if I am filming a pod of spinner dolphins moving off in to the sunset at f4 and fading fast, yes it's possible I may buzz the focus as a one-person shooter given the fading light, fast moving subjects and the piloting skills of the boat driver - that challenge is part of the fun for me.

Obviously there are exceptions already mentioned previously in this thread. I am a natural history filmmaker and speak from this POV. Please keep in mind I am not a master but rather a student of film. I am sharing based on my experience and opinion and may be wrong at times. But hey - there are masters on this forum that are contributing freely of their knowledge - now that's way cool!

PS - I say student of FILM just to pull Gibby's chain - the best part is he get's my sense of humor and has said, "keep 'em coming Sharky." Not sure if that's a warning though?

[Ken Corben]

Thanks, guys, very helpful discussion.

1. So,if we use 2k, the focusing problem is greatly reduced. Also, it probably negates one of Sceptic's objections. as the focal length will also increase. If it's 25-75 in 4k, what is it in 2k?

It would be 50-150mm in 2K. I am not an expert in the DSLR to 35mm lens format conversion factor and may be wrong by a few mm in either direction - I am using information posted on this forum by more knowledgable DP's.


I have a question about the flash modules: if the 300gb drive gives you an hour and a half at 4k (or according to Stewart twice that at 2k) how can the 32gb flash module give you a half hour?

I was using the presumption of 1 GB/min with 4k redcode RAW on a formatted card. If it is 90 minutes/300 GB then the flash yields 3GB/min or 10 minutes, basically the equivalent of a 1000' 35mm mag. That is still very impressive. The 32GB flash cards are listed at $1500 - how much does an ARRI 1000' mag cost?

And yes, the workflow is new to us EFP guys so even with 3 digital mags (32GB flash cards) someone has to be downloading the cards to HDD's.

[mike70]

Then for doc shooting, maybe Sceptic's got a point--if we're back to shooting 35mm load lengths, with the alternative being a drive that might fail on set and the nightmare of a re-shoot. Are there any solutions on the horizon?

It would be cumbersome, but could you make your own raid 1 by running two drives (maybe one on the camera and one on your belt), in effect giving yourself a mirror drive?

[/QUOTE]Also, if RAID dies on set, it'll probably let you know. So you can re-shoot.
[/QUOTE]

What indications would you have? Could you tell while you were shooting or only on download?

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Considering that Peter Jackson shot "Crossing the Line" with the RedDrive in a stock config from jibs, helicopter mounts, handheld, etc I am feeling pretty good about its real world chops. The recording of image information on any medium from 65mm film to flash cards has some mean failure rate based on ruggedness, mechanical operation, environmental factors, etc. I don't think it makes sense to get hung up on alarmist speculation about the RedDrive system when it has had so few hours of field testing.

I am planning to get 3 RedDrives and use them for everything except the obvious high vibration/shock situations. If my own usage or an avalanche of reports on this forum tell a story of high failure rates outside of controlled situations then I will consider flash based storage. The big advantage of waiting is also higher capacity and lower costs. In the meantime if I have a specific situation that screams for flash media I can rent and help some paranoi... I mean fellow Red User pay off his flash modules :shifty:

The cost to reliability to efficiency equation for the RedDrive looks good on paper, if it holds up in the field it will be another feather in the Red cap.

[Nick Shaw]

I don't think the RED-DRIVE was in the standard camera mounted configuration for PJ's helicopter shooting. Didn't somebody say it had to be held on somebody's lap to protect it from vibration? Still hoping it will be fine in most 'normal' situations though.

[mike70]

FWIW, Ken, just saw this over on HD for Indies, so maybe it's somewhere in between:

At the data rates for 4K @ 24fps discussed at IBC, that's about 18 minutes of 4K RAW 4:4:4 10 bit log REDCODE RAW per 32GB cartridge that fits inside the camera body.

[Moir]

Again, I'd say absolutely YOU CAN DO IT - I'm planning on it. It's not voodoo, it's a camera. Frame, focus and hit record. The main issue that may not be fully understood by us EFP guys with no cinema style background is focus. Yes there is the issue of adjustable shutter, frame rate and exposure settings that also may be new to some of us but it's simple and we'll save that for later.

I think it is important to clearly understand the focus concerns in 4K raised in reduser are primarily cinema-centric. Obviously the shot needs to be in focus no matter what but let's clearly define the concern so that shooters in EFP like you and me that are invested in REDONE and excited about its potential remain in focus:

Cinema style - DP's job is to conrol every photon that hits the film plane or CMOS sensor. To effectively paint with light. This is usually done in fstops between WFO and f4 depending on the lighting budgets. Typically more towards the lower end as less light is more from an artistic standpoint. There in lies the critical focus concern - the DOF (depth of field) at lower fstops.

EFP - Exterior daylight with REDONE is less "challenging" for focus since we are working at higher fstops where the DOF is far more forgiving. Take the Peter Jackson aerial footage shot at f8 - everything is in focus from 10' (?) to nearly infinity. You didn't see an AC racking focus on the fly in those shots. The fun challenge as a filmmaker with REDONE EFP in the field is selecting the right combination of ND and pola filters to achieve fabulous 4K images not shot HOT at f22 - this is assuming the camera rating of 320 in equatorial sunlight at mid-day. The result - washed out images that Jim refered to as "don't shoot everything at f22."

So if I am filming a pod of spinner dolphins moving off in to the sunset at f4 and fading fast, yes it's possible I may buzz the focus as a one-person shooter given the fading light, fast moving subjects and the piloting skills of the boat driver - that challenge is part of the fun for me.

Obviously there are exceptions already mentioned previously in this thread. I am a natural history filmmaker and speak from this POV. Please keep in mind I am not a master but rather a student of film. I am sharing based on my experience and opinion and may be wrong at times. But hey - there are masters on this forum that are contributing freely of their knowledge - now that's way cool!

PS - I say student of FILM just to pull Gibby's chain - the best part is he get's my sense of humor and has said, "keep 'em coming Sharky." Not sure if that's a warning though?

Apologies for quoting in full, but I very much appreciate you posting this, Ken. It's more than a little intimidating to read some of the posts from cinema-style shooters about tape measures and 3 ton grip trucks etc. I frequently wonder whether I am fooling myself that I am ready to own and use a camera like this.

I sense that you are also one of the more modest people around here. Funny how those with the most to brag about are frequently the most humble.

[Steve Gibby]

The SuperGrip thread in the Off Topic forum has some fresh info on the SuperGrip and RED Motors that should be of close interest to doc shooters, or for that matter, for all EFP shooters:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2070