Epic has changed...

[Jannard]

Just like Scarlet, Epic has changed completely. Throw out everything you thought before. We'll reset the deck at the same time we announce about Scarlet.

All good here. No bad news at all. Only good surprises. Still early-mid 2009. RED ONE upgrade still in effect.

And yes, it will still be called RED EPIC.

Cheers.

Jim

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Always nice to have you here Jim :) and as always we're eagerly awaiting your announcements.

Can't wait for Epic. Red is brilliant but I need more hahahaha

[Luis Caffesse]

Wow.

What I wouldn't give to be a fly on the RED wall today.

[PatrickW]

More epic?

[Fredrik Callinggard]

PS We need to kill the rolling shutter issues. Other camera manufactures are now stating the facts with skew and not being able to shoot strobe lighting on RED, for their benefits.

Not to mention I love to shoot strobes and lightning strikes etc hehehe

[Sven Seynaeve]

Can't wait to get Epic...

[Kreisky]

Hey Jim,
when are we gonna know what the new SCARLET/EPIC is going to be ?

[Casey Green]

Does this depend on the outcome of the election now?

just kidding. :-)

[Frank Weeks]

I love this company.. Keep um coming Jim

[Joseph Ward]

Will it be an Epic Scarlet or a Scarlet Epic!:) Don't forget to include DSMC. hehe

[Shawn Nelson]

Oh please be cheaper! I wasn't going to be able to afford Epic (unless my Red started renting or my stars changed).

[Karl Gustav H.]

Jim,

Is this change in Epic linked to the Scarlet changes or is the timing more important.

I guess I'm asking if there was a eureka moment with the underlying architecture, or just two disparate revolutions coming out of the same meeting?

Sorry if that made absolutely no sense.

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

I can't play Half Life II on it so I won't get one.... :bleh:

[Matt Uhry]

Great, I can't wait to see what you've come up with.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[C.H.Haskell]

Great to hear EPIC development is under full swing Jim...although the announcements could be a little less vague...driving us crazy! Then again this is how the hype machine works.

Cheers ;)

[Gunleik Groven]

I like it.
Monstro for all!

[Mitch Gross]

Epic-er.

[Ivan G]

You are in our prayers....

[Cüneyt Kaya]

240 fps at 4k?

[Paul Hazlett]

The new Epic? I think Jim has been at the strip a little too much lately

[Tico Llaurador]

Jim, if you used Twitter we could all follow these changes easily! Let alone all the li'l REDventures you must go through everyday.

[Ken Willinger]

I'm hoping that accessories purchased for Red One will now be available to use on Epic.

[David Rasberry]

The new Epic? I think Jim has been at the strip a little too much lately

Hey, somebody who remembers Big Daddy Roth. :w00t:

[Luis Caffesse]

Jim, if you used Twitter we could all follow these changes easily! Let alone all the li'l REDventures you must go through everyday.

Now there's an idea.
:)

[Lee Dashiell]

Jim is like the Wizard of OZ.....he pops in every once in a while and delivers the news. It's kinda cool.

[Michael "Dorkman" Scott]

Oh man, Jim should totally have a Twitter account.

Also, I'm excited about these new versions of the cameras. More than likely it's just another example of the open nature of the process, and it'll be stuff that many of us have been asking for. I'm hoping that, as a side-effect, it also helps to distinguish the market segments of each product more clearly.

[Peter Majtan]

The most interesting thing is that the "twin" thread over at scarlet user generated so far over 50K views and almost 50 pages in responses, all under 24 hrs... It used to be the other way round... :) :) :)

http://www.scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=1047

[Jonas Rejman]

It is very obvious, why EPIC has changed. All one have to do, is to put one and two together.

There were 2 incidents at the LHC in CERN during the initial tests runs. All that happened last week.

First, a 30 ton transformer used to power cooling stations for portions of the superconducting magnets "failed". Then a faulty electrical connection between two magnets melted, causing a helium "leak". This forced the scientific teams to warm up the collider system. A process that will take months.

... at least this is what they tell you.

My uncle worked as a security guard at CERN. His job was sitting in the control room and observing the security cameras. A job, that is not very exciting, as not many people attempt to steal something as large as the LHC. 30 minutes after the second incident, his supervisor asked him to leave his station and go home. As nobody knew about the "problems" my uncle was quite glad to get back home and check out his favorite forums..
My uncle came back the next day, and checked the tapes of the cameras. There was nothing on them. Until he checked the logfiles, and discovered, that the timestamps did not match. Obviously, someone has changed them.

What nobody at CERN knew, that my uncle has installed his very own RED ONE as a security camera. Out of boredom, as I told before, and because he liked to grade 4K a little in his freetime on his home-san. So, while the crews were busy with the "leaks", my uncle got his RED and headed straight to his home.

Only to find out, that someone has broken into his apartment. I got a frantic call from him 30 hours ago. There was something on the tape, important enough, that my uncle had to go into hiding.

I met him on a lonely street at the Geneva lake this evening. He had his RED with it, and played back the files. And there it was...

I do not dare to speak of it. The most strange thing was, that after the first playback, the camera initiated some sort of self-destruction sequence. A countdown started to go backward on the display. My uncle run into the darkness, and I only managed to pull out the SD card out of the camera, before I ran.

I will never hear on my left ear again. The explosion was that huge.

I still cannot believe what I saw. I have the SD card right with me, but I cannot read it in REDALERT. It was only playable in the camera. Gladly, my uncle had still build 15 on it, so I am having a wavelet jpeg2000 reverse transmitter running a trace on it. It is slowly reconstructing some frames.

I did not hear from my uncle since then. I called my bank 9 hours ago, and my assets has been frozen. I turned my cellphone off. But it might be to late.

Here! The first frames are coming! I will try to remember what I saw.

A HUGE guy is mounting something onto the tube of the LHC. Thanks to the 4K resolution i can see the sunglasses. Made by Oakley... Hmm.

A second guy, bold, is holding a dark emmiting sphere into the tube of the LHC. This guy has a T-shirt with a red chainsaw blade on it.

Now they are attaching something to transformer cables.

Now! The chief of CERN is joining then, checking the connections. They shake hands!


Jesus, I have to upload that here somewhere! This is just too important!


They leave the tubes and disappear. The emitting dark light gets lighter. It seems some sort of experiment is running. All is lighted in an incredible beam of dark light.


The lights in my apartment just went out. Good, that I am hacked into my neighbors wifi. There! A somebody knocks at my door! At 4 am ???


The dark beam explodes. And then, for a fraction of a second I see it...
It is the long searched red-particle.
Beautiful! Frozen as 1 pixel in the 4K frame...

SOMBODY isdf in my apt! damm, i needto uploda hti fast!
damniitt, upldof hit the upload

[Peter Majtan]

Ha ha! You could make a nice short out of this... :)

[Ryan Patch]

I would totally subscribe to a JJ twitter.

[Harrison Diamond]

Jim is like the Wizard of OZ.....he pops in every once in a while and delivers the news. It's kinda cool.

Nah, Jim Jannard is like Chuck Norris...he just starts revolutions instead of roundhouse kicks to the face.

[Roberto Lequeux]

The most interesting thing is that the "twin" thread over at scarlet user generated so far over 50K views and almost 50 pages in responses, all under 24 hrs... It used to be the other way round...

That's cause us Scarleteers secretly took over :shiftyph34r:


:devil:

[matt.alan.martin]

Nah, Jim Jannard is like Chuck Norris...he just starts revolutions instead of roundhouse kicks to the face.

However, his revolution does deliver roundhouse kicks to the face of execs at Sony, Pany, and Canon...

[Chosei Funahara]

However, his revolution does deliver roundhouse kicks to the face of execs at Sony, Pany, and Canon...
... Nikon, Ikonoskop, Kinor, Aaton, Olympus (now Pany), Thomson Grassvalley, Panavision, Arriflex, NAC Image Technology and Dalsa!:ph34r:

[Zach Nelson]

Red is a company I have to work for.... (software architect)... so, why no response to my resume? :ph34r:

I am so passionate about this co. :blush:

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

The most interesting thing is that the "twin" thread over at scarlet user generated so far over 50K views and almost 50 pages in responses, all under 24 hrs... It used to be the other way round... :) :) :)

http://www.scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=1047



"They've got the guns but....we've got the numbers..."

:devil:

[Eric Lange]

I feel a bit like a fish that’s been thrown onto a deck gasping for air (or is it water)? We have been designing new types 3d acquisition products around RED ONE and the concepts behind EPIC and other cameras besides.

The announcement of the DSMC was very exiting indeed as it opens up new technical frontiers especially for our firm. The EPIC, I have always (probably incorrectly) interpreted as a special application camera for FX types shots or sequences where you know that you are going to have elaborate process shots in post, but not very many film makers (I have thought ) would shoot an entire movie using EPICs. In this respect I have always thought of the R’Ones as the main practical work horse on location or in the studio.

With CMOS technology if you can bothered you can do almost anything (as opposed to the much more restrictive circuitry of CCDs).

I am betting (at this moment) that the EPIC, DSMC and SCARLET could all use the same sensor. However the implementation of the same sensor will be very different for each model. I have always thought that the concept designs of the Scarlet seemed very restrictive as the design did not allow for different lenses and other modifications. The functionality of the Scarlet will be absorbed by the DSMC. The difference in the EPIC and the DSMC/SCARLET will be processing bandwidth. EPIC will let you roll at higher resolutions and frame rates than DSMC/SCARLET. This does not affect 4k Red One’s as the range and types of I/O for the EPIC/DSMC/SCARLET will be very much paired down in comparison to a studio camera.

In terms of form factor I am hoping that the new cameras will be offered as a small “block” similar to a small medium format digital back. That way many 3rd party companies can design a ton of different bodies, lens arrangements and so on for the different digital backs. No restrictions, just a new explosion of camera design, and hopefully we will start seeing more cameras designed and manufactured in the US.

P.s. check out the new LEICA -S, (37MP) DSLR (a new format between 35mm and medium + lenses + DNG and strategic alliance with PhaseOne)

What’s cool about Redusernet is that you have all types of “image takers” talking about what they like or want from video, film and stills photography all on an equal footing and generally with an open mind and appreciation for each other's discipline. I really like the idea that techniques in still and motion start to blend (very cool).




Check out us.leica-camera.com/photography/s_system/

And www.s.leica-camera.com/

[Dan Sturm]

You guys are absolutely, 100% insane...and I love it. Im so glad you're willing to pull the designs this far into development for the benifit of the end product. It is a testament to your dedication and innovative nature.

While alot of people seem to be freaking out about the scarlet/epic announcments, I'm just going to laugh a bit, sit back and wait to see what magic ensues.

Cheers to you RED.

[Jeff Coatney]

I trust your instincts, Jim. You are one of the best product developers I've ever met. You prove over and over again how important it is to be your own customer.

[Benni Diez]

If they are really really clever, Scarlet, DSMC and Epic will just be different config bundles with a few modules (like the sensor) in common.

Scarlet would have a lens mount, LCD viewfinder, electronics for 3k movie capture (or 4k after all, who knows), sd card slots and few connection ports. All very compact. Lens mount? Dunno. But most likely for the kind of glass that's most available. Also a good Red zoom lens included for starters.

DSMC would have electronics in favor of high-res HDR still capture and burst mode for short raw sequences. EVF, LCD, CF card slot, USB port...
Lens mount for maximum compatibility with still lenses.

Epic would have the most advanced signal processing in favor of HDR and high speed movie capture. Connection ports of all kinds. Mount for movie lenses.

This way you could maybe plug something together that's as small as a SI-Mini for special purposes like miniature shoots, compact stereo rigs and stuff.

[GIR.exe]

Just like Scarlet, Epic has changed completely. Throw out everything you thought before. We'll reset the deck at the same time we announce about Scarlet.

All good here. No bad news at all. Only good surprises. Still early-mid 2009. RED ONE upgrade still in effect.

And yes, it will still be called RED EPIC.

Cheers.

Jim

oh no not again:bleh: :biggrin:

[GIR.exe]

Just like Scarlet, Epic has changed completely. Throw out everything you thought before. We'll reset the deck at the same time we announce about Scarlet.

All good here. No bad news at all. Only good surprises. Still early-mid 2009. RED ONE upgrade still in effect.

And yes, it will still be called RED EPIC.

Cheers.

Jim

oh no not again
:P
dont worry jim i'm just pissing in your pocket (aussie slang meaning, just fooling around).

Any ideas on production numbers?

[Jeff Coatney]

Lego. Think: Lego.

[number6]

"They've got the guns but....we've got the numbers..."

:devil:

IN TO THE BREECH!!!

[arun]

Its k but not that much pretty , Plz change the body shape of EPIC it looks like a Brick....

[Brad Olsen]

I haven't read carefully enough on the forums to know if this has already been proposed.

Here it goes: after watching the Dark Knight in IMAX I totally thought of the word EPIC when I saw that large format size used in action sequences. Could EPIC have a 65mm sized image sensor? I know it's crazy, but that would truly be epic.

Maybe window to smaller sizes if you don't want that shallow of dof. Or if not a 65mm at least a VistaVision sized sensor, isn't that about the same as Full 35mm?

Also I've heard rumblings of IMAX developing their own digital motion camera...

[Roberto Lequeux]

I really want this to be an 80mm sensor camera with relative resolution to the S35 Red One. Or the 65mm camera that comes out before "Colossal" or whatever the name. :)

Is that likely or will the S35 size get more smaller sensors?

[Alain DEUDJUI]

well done Jim!

If the monstro sensor meet or the beat the SMPTE specs on 6k or 8k ultra high definition.It will make more sense to built it around the 65 mm format with internal tone maping processing(open source algorithms are available).this way those of us interest in the vistavision frame will benefit from it.Thus the epic destiny is to be born with a 8k sensor and take avantage of the new IRIDAS new realtime RAW 2.0 AND CINEFORM resolution independant codecs.I bet graeme is up to the task.

[Alain DEUDJUI]

Since red one is almost 5k ready,it make more sense here to spec the next update of the red one sensor @ 5k or above and let the Epic be an EPIC.I like the idea of scaling the sensor depth up to 16 bit.

[Jason Rivera]

Since red one is almost 5k ready,it make more sense here to spec the next update of the red one sensor @ 5k or above and let the Epic be an EPIC.

Agreed!

I think Red One becomes 6K and faster fps, Epic becomes 8K or higher, scarlet becomes Red One! In the future, the process moves up yet again. Scarlet becomes One, One becomes Epic. Epic always becomes the latest and greatest in sensor technology and the others simply get upgraded by one. :sorcerer: Motion and rest = infinity!

[Roberto Lequeux]

What I was trying to ask is if Epic would have a much shallower DOF... I mean... do you end up shooting at much higher apertures? I guess you certainly could close the lenses up a lot more relative to 35mm because you would get more sensitivity from the surface area... but I am not sure how that would work. Someone teach me a bit here please and tell me what you think is likely to be seen in Epic in terms of sensor size.

[J. Bernard Vallon]

There are a lot of old forums on this very topic. I think we should revisit the idea of a 4:3 chip for epic for anamorphics, as lots of people who make "epic" films want anamorphic glass.

[Joseph Ward]

There are a lot of old forums on this very topic. I think we should revisit the idea of a 4:3 chip for epic for anamorphics, as lots of people who make "epic" films want anamorphic glass.

I completely agree! Plus Red can and will make glass for that!:wink:

[Jannard]

What I was trying to ask is if Epic would have a much shallower DOF... I mean... do you end up shooting at much higher apertures? I guess you certainly could close the lenses up a lot more relative to 35mm because you would get more sensitivity from the surface area... but I am not sure how that would work. Someone teach me a bit here please and tell me what you think is likely to be seen in Epic in terms of sensor size.

DOF is a combination of sensor size, focal length and aperture. The larger the sensor, the less DOF (faster focus falloff). The more telephoto, the less DOF. The larger (smaller number) the aperture, the less DOF.

Jim

[phantomoftheugly]

I posted this over on the Scarlet forum, but for all you who do not check that one out here goes.

I had some thoughts as soon as I heard that the Scarlet was going to be redesigned. Prior, I had been following all the news in regards to the DSMC, then when the Epic was announced to change as well, I solidified my guess' as to the future of the RED line. Jim had mentioned where camera (both still and motion) is heading (in regards to convergence) and he also mentioned about skipping a design generation. On the DSMC thread there was a lot of talk up about the DSMC competing with Hasselblad et al in the medium format arena. My predictions are as follows.

There will be two new DSMCs announced both featuring new sensor tech RED has been working on with ultra fast reset rates. These cameras will be the Scarlet and the Epic.

The scarlet will remain largely intact in term of video capabilities but will get a form factor upgrade. Likely in the vein of the new Lumix DMC-G1 recently announced or close to the EVIL camera mock up, but of course with the awesome RED industrial styling. It will boast a new full frame sensor and have interchangeable lenses as well. Price will be as low as they can get it within reason to help ward of competitors in the newly formed DSLR video realm.

The new Epic will have a medium format sensor. This will allow this DSMC to compete with the format of the same name in the still world. The cameras video specs will be refreshed also pushing resolution closer to 7k putting them in the IMAX league. Thusly making the Epic even more epic.

This incorporates most of the ideas going around the forums and it gives red a nice clean product line distinguishing between their two cameras and including the DSMC vision. Thanks for reading everyone.

[Jaz]

I KNEW IT !!! The new Scarlet is now going to inherit the old Epic's specs, and the new Epic will turn to some kind of hadron collider.
That being said i agree that this change is DSMC related
Should i buy THE MAMIYA 645ZD 22megapixel combo or wait?

I love this sudden change policy.
It 's exciting !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
At Red, they don't wanna be in advance they wanna be ground breaking!!!
so much for my first post.

[Roberto Lequeux]

DOF is a combination of sensor size, focal length and aperture. The larger the sensor, the less DOF (faster focus falloff). The more telephoto, the less DOF. The larger (smaller number) the aperture, the less DOF.

Jim

Yes, thanks for the clear and complete refresher. What I am wondering is if there are any detriments from shooting with immense sensors like the 8K you must be working on. :blink:

I guess you get so much exposure, and since 8K projections are not part of the plan (yet anyway, this is Red) then the "next best thing" is 4K projection. :tongue: And a little noisy 8K will be flawless 4K out. So you can shoot at lower light than you could with S35 or 4K. Also, I suppose that 101% of you shooting 65-80mm can simply select the aperture they want based on only DOF wanted and light accordingly, even for large wide shots... especially with the added sensitivity.

What I guess I am getting at is whether we will see larger Monstrosities crawling out or the Red bunker walking on knives, or if the new best chips will remain at S35 and blow our minds with insane noiseless gain capabilities? A "little" bigger and crazy sensitivity? I haven't really looked into larger than S35 like... well, ever. So I kinda wanted to hear a bit about the effect that all of this will have on the new iterations of the best chip technology out there. No need to tell us what you are actually doing till it is best for the company, trust me, I want Red to succeed. But where will the attributes of large chips and their optics push us towards? Up? Or is there no need?

[S. Um]

DOF is a combination of sensor size, focal length and aperture. The larger the sensor, the less DOF (faster focus falloff). The more telephoto, the less DOF. The larger (smaller number) the aperture, the less DOF.

Jim

With all due respect, I have to disagree with this. Sensor size has no effect on depth of field. As an example, think of a 50mm f/1.4 lens on a DSLR. Whether the sensor is full size 35mm, or APS-C, or 1/3", the depth of field in the picture stays the same - because it's the same picture, just different cropping.

Now if you meant to say that with a bigger sensor, you would have to use a longer lens to get the same angle of coverage, thus resulting in a shallower depth of field, then it's a different story...

[Joseph Ward]

Epic should not have the same size sensor as the RedOne!:ranting2:
4:3 OR Bigger.

[Jannard]

With all due respect, I have to disagree with this. Sensor size has no effect on depth of field. As an example, think of a 50mm f/1.4 lens on a DSLR. Whether the sensor is full size 35mm, or APS-C, or 1/3", the depth of field in the picture stays the same - because it's the same picture, just different cropping.

Now if you meant to say that with a bigger sensor, you would have to use a longer lens to get the same angle of coverage, thus resulting in a shallower depth of field, then it's a different story...

I guess it depends on how you look at it. If you use the same lens on different sensors you get a different field of view. I was assuming an equal field of view (equivalent, not equal, focal lengths)... which is usually the reference (but not always).

Jim

[Roberto Lequeux]

So does the behavior of larger sensors make everyone want to make bigger ones or is there a mathematical or otherwise hypothetical sweet spot of sorts, considering all aspects of usability for a 4K master.
(I know capturing larger is always better, I mean other reasons)

[Daniel Browning]

I was assuming an equal field of view (equivalent, not equal, focal lengths)

Maybe Sumfun and I are pedantic. Here's how I would put it:


Larger sensor standing in the same spot with FOV corrected by longer lens: thinner DOF, same FOV.
Same lens, larger sensor moved to get the same field of view: thinner DOF.
Same lens, larger sensor standing in the same spot: same DOF, wider FOV.
Same sensor, more telephoto standing in the same spot: thinner DOF, narrower FOV.
Same sensor, more telephoto moved to get the same field of view: same DOF, same FOV, higher magnification of background blur (often confused for thinner DOF, see Myth busted: telephoto lenses have thinner DoF).


Really, DOF can all be summed up as aperture (not focal ratio) and focus distance . To get the same FOV on a larger sensor, a longer focal length is needed. If the focal ratio is kept the same, then the aperture increases (75mm f/2 is wider than 50mm f/2). Since the aperture increases, DOF is thinner. So the mental shortcut is that sensor size contributes to DOF.

Plus, the apparent depth of field will be affected by the sensor and post production. But it all starts at the lens and goes downhill from there.

[Jannard]

Maybe Sumfun and I are pedantic. Here's how I would put it:


Larger sensor standing in the same spot with FOV corrected by longer lens: thinner DOF, same FOV.
Same lens, larger sensor moved to get the same field of view: thinner DOF.
Same lens, larger sensor standing in the same spot: same DOF, wider FOV.
Same sensor, more telephoto standing in the same spot: thinner DOF, narrower FOV.
Same sensor, more telephoto moved to get the same field of view: same DOF, same FOV, higher magnification of background blur (often confused for thinner DOF, see Myth busted: telephoto lenses have thinner DoF).


Really, DOF can all be summed up as aperture (not focal ratio) and focus distance . To get the same FOV on a larger sensor, a longer focal length is needed. If the focal ratio is kept the same, then the aperture increases (75mm f/2 is wider than 50mm f/2). Since the aperture increases, DOF is thinner. So the mental shortcut is that sensor size contributes to DOF.

Plus, the apparent depth of field will be affected by the sensor and post production. But it all starts at the lens and goes downhill from there.

I'll buy that...

Jim

[Daniel Browning]

So does the behavior of larger sensors make everyone want to make bigger ones or is there a mathematical or otherwise hypothetical sweet spot of sorts, considering all aspects of usability for a 4K master.
(I know capturing larger is always better, I mean other reasons)

I don't know about hypotheticals, but I can say that for me the primary concerns are lenses and sensor technology. There is a high concentration of lens quality and quantity at Super35 and Still35 sizes. First lenses:

Wider aperture lenses cost more to manufacture to the same quality level and larger sensors require wider apertures for the same field of view. For example, 50mm f/2 on the RED ONE has an aperture of 25mm. It requires approximately 80mm f/2 on still 35, which is an aperture of 40mm, 15mm wider.

One way around that problem is to use slower lenses on the larger format, as is typical with Medium Format compared to Still 35. That way the aperture and depth of field stays the same, but you have to use slower shutter speeds to get the same exposure. Another way around that problem is to not manufacture them to the same quality level.

In DSLR cameras, one of the difficulties is moving the mirror up and down fast enough, which gets exponentially harder with larger mirrors. That's part of the reason why the crop cameras can be faster than the full frame.

Sensor technology is divided unequally among sensor sizes. I'm not sure if it's market forces or engineering difficulties, but it's where we are. The very smallest digicam sensors, with over 25 times less area than Still35 sensors, still have much higher technology.

For at least the last five years they have led the industry in quantum efficiency per area, read noise at base ISO per area, read noise at high ISO per area (not always), resolution per area, and sheer marval. Of course, it doesn't really matter how good they are "per area", because their area is so tiny that even if they are 10X better than a DSLR, the DSLR is still 25X bigger, so it wins in the end. Anyway, technology is trickling up from digicams into bigger sensors, such as gapless microlenses.

Of course, there are some areas where bigger sensors have higher tech, too. All that extra space might as well be used for noise reduction circuits, which is why big sensors can equal (or sometimes beat) digicams in high ISO noise on a per-area basis.

So anyway, my point was that some sensor sizes have better technology on an area basis, so a smaller sensor with higher quantum efficiency is more desirable than a larger sensor with lower QE, unless the larger sensor also has a faster lens available.

For example, the Canon 50D has gapless microlenses and higher QE on a per area basis than the 5D mark 2. So if you crop the 5D mark 2 down to the same size as 50D, the 50D will have much higher signal-to-noise.

[Roberto Lequeux]

Ok, so let me see if I picked up the basic and most important aspects from your post. (Thank you BTW!)

1. Larger sensors mean exponentially more expensive lenses... especially since 35mm lenses may seem cheaper in comparison due to their availability, when you go bigger you get hit from both the manufacture cost and the low supply sides at once.
2. High ISO noise performance is possibly the only area where most companies seem to already be able to beat the smaller sensors.

That's basically it right? well till Red came along and now god knows what we are gonna get :D

[Jonas Rejman]

Thanks for the lesson, Daniel.

[Joseph Ward]

What I don't get is why Epics old S35 sensor camera was praised? Was it a true S35mm size and not the 16:9 RedOne design, or a 4:3 standard? I could only guess that RedOne owners would feel that theirs are almost equal because of the ability to upgrade their sensor to whatever the Epics is, and even use RedOne as a deposit for a Epic. To me Epic should be another whole new beast instead of RedOne Draft 1.5!

Epic should be at least another sensor size if anything?

[Jannard]

What I don't get is why Epics old S35 sensor camera was praised? Was it a true S35mm size and not the 16:9 RedOne design, or a 4:3 standard? I could only guess that RedOne owners would feel that theirs are almost equal because of the ability to upgrade their sensor to whatever the Epics is, and even use RedOne as a deposit for a Epic. To me Epic should be another whole new beast instead of RedOne Draft 1.5!

Epic should be at least another sensor size if anything?

What do you mean Epic's "old sensor"? Maybe you need to read what the differences are and why before posting this? Just a thought.

Jim

[Joseph Ward]

What do you mean Epic's "old sensor"? Maybe you need to read what the differences are and why before posting this? Just a thought.

Jim

I did not mean to sound that bad, I apologize. I was trying to talk about the sensor size. The RedOne can get a new Sensor Mysterium X(Monstro, ect.) anyway. The new sensor sounds amazing I just dont think it needs another camera unless it is a differ size.

[Roberto Lequeux]

I see what you and tons of other people are saying Ayoji about making each camera hold a different sensor size... it feels "right". But I am sure (and I bet you'll agree) that if Jannard makes a S35 sensor for Epic it will likely be only cause he pushed funded and demanded from his team to cram something that will blow your mind into the S35 surface area so that we also got access to the S35 glass that is much more affordable and varied. And because they reached the conclusion that there is S35 glass out there that is good enough for the insane amounts of resolution they are cramming in the surface area. Or some other reasoning that escapes my limited knowledge. And I am sure that Jim knows you didn't mean to make it sound bad and that it was instead some of that poor writing that happens when you get so exited about something you can't see until the oven's bell dings. It is the are we there yet phenomenon, Ayoji, Jim. And we are stuck in here cause it will be worth it. :w00t: :shifty: :biggrin:

[Alain DEUDJUI]

Hello Jim!
please let us know your take on tone mapping for expanded HDR.Why not take that direction hardware wise built within EPIC.Instead of playing the game of bigger sensor.
thank you.

Alain

[Jannard]

Hello Jim!
please let us know your take on tone mapping for expanded HDR.Why not take that direction hardware wise built within EPIC.Instead of playing the game of bigger sensor.
thank you.

Alain

Are you kidding me?

Jim

[Andrew Walker]

I would much rather have a bigger sensor. Then some built in HDR function any day.

[Bing Bailey]

Yes a vista vision sized sensor would be fantastic. although expensive, red are definitely in a position to do a large sensor and make lenses for it and give the option of using the windowed center with regular lenses just like we would do with 2k.

maybe an 8k sensor. thats one way of future proofing it. christopher nolan loved shooting on imax cameras but wasn't too happy about the weight and has also said he'd shoot the next batman completely in that larger format. if epic is something along those lines with a big sensor on it maybe it could be used on the next batman. although the lenses would be very expensive studio productions could easily swallow that cost.

[Joseph Ward]

Bigger Sensor Baby!!!

VistaVision(Full Frame 35mm) is doable for Red, maybe even IMAX!
They can beat the Phantom(and future others) who would make 65/70mm size cameras!:gun:

[Paris Remillard]

Yes a vista vision sized sensor would be fantastic. although expensive, red are definitely in a position to do a large sensor and make lenses for it and give the option of using the windowed center with regular lenses just like we would do with 2k.

although the lenses would be very expensive studio productions could easily swallow that cost.

If it's a Vistavision sensor, the glass would be cheaper than S35 glass because of economies of scale. There is a huge amount of fantastic 35mm stills glass that is CHEAP compared to cine glass. Any parts that can overlap with consumer products will be cheaper than specialized low volume parts. I was just thinking about this the other day when I realized that I could buy a pretty nice bicycle for the cost of 2 Red top mounts.

[Tom Lowe]

S35mm (possibly 4:3) is the most sensible spec for Epic if its aim is to replace existing chemical-film cameras in motion pictures and TV, because all the existing glass and supporting systems will remain usable, for the most part.

Probably the next step after Epic will be to full frame "Vista Vision", and this will be driven by cameras like the 5Dm2, 1DsM4, DSMC, etc. It will take some time for people to adjust to the idea of using still glass or for people to modify or produce new "full frame 35mm" glass.

I could be wrong. Jim could try to leapfrog directly to that step with a "full-frame" Epic, but that's something only he and a few people around him know right now.

[Martin Weiss]

If it's a Vistavision sensor, the glass would be cheaper than S35 glass because of economies of scale. There is a huge amount of fantastic 35mm stills glass that is CHEAP compared to cine glass.

Two comments:

To my knowledge there are no consumer grade lenses that would cover a Vistavision sized sensor. The lenses would have to cover a much bigger field than the s35mm or even full-sized 35mm lenses.

And there are already plenty of people using high-end stills lenses on their Red One, thanks to the Nikon mount and the IMS (and apparently soon some other mounts).

[Daniel Browning]

To my knowledge there are no consumer grade lenses that would cover a Vistavision sized sensor. The lenses would have to cover a much bigger field than the s35mm or even full-sized 35mm lenses.

According to Panavision (http://www.panavision.co.nz/main/kbase/reference/calcFOVform.asp) and Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VistaVision), Vistavision is the same width as still 35, but varying heights based on desired aspect ratio (between 1:1.63 and 1:2.00). Any still 35 lens would cover it. (Super35 is film run vertical. Still 35 and Vistavision is the same film run horizontal, just more perfs).

[Daniel Browning]

There is a huge amount of fantastic 35mm stills glass that is CHEAP compared to cine glass.

Super35 has lots of cine glass and some still glass (EF-S/DX).
Still35 has lots of still glass and little cine glass.

[Martin Weiss]

Whoops, my bad, apologies. Shouldn't post that late.

But, you will still find cheaper lenses for S35 still than full format - also because most modern consumer lenses are made for the smaller digital sensors, which are approximately the same size as the Red One sensor.
And of course, you can use full format 35mm/Vistavision lenses on a Red - and probably end up getting better quality as lens performance tends to fall off towards the edges.

Anyway, off to sleep for me.

[Daniel Browning]

But, you will still find cheaper lenses for S35 still than full format - also because most modern consumer lenses are made for the smaller digital sensors, which are approximately the same size as the Red One sensor.


Usually, yes. And the good ones (like the EF-S 17-55 f/2.8 IS) have better resolution than still 35 lenses (for the same reason that 2/3" lenses have better resolution than still 35). Crop DSLR still have the same-size mirror assembly, so the crop-format lenses still have to have the same (long) flange focal distance, which prevents some cost-saving designs and imposes some constraints on lens design.

[Tom Lowe]

yeah, just to clarify, many of us are starting to use the terms "full frame 35mm" and "Vista Vision" interchangeably.

on a side note, i suppose "Vista Vision" is still a trademarked term that Paramount or whatever would not allow others to use?

hehe... i could buy a 5Dm2, deck it out with a viewfinder, recorder, mattebox, focus, etc, and tell clients, "Yes, I can shoot your project in Digital Vista Vision!" :)

[Harrison Diamond]

Assuming that the 5K-100fps spec was our maximum data rate for EPIC's processing electronics, and that the spec was for a 5120x3840 4:3 aspect ratio s35 sensor read area, that same sensor at VistaVision 3:2 would be able to output about 7.6K at 50fps, at a 16:9 ratio about 60fps, and at 2:1 66fps if my math is correct.
Also, if the scaling continued to 65mm, we could have a 2.20:1 sensor shooting around 10-11k (depending if you wanted projector or camera aperture spec for 65mm) at 35-43fps, and if you wanted 16:9 you'd get 27-33fps depending if it was camera or projector aperture spec. Again, this assumes my math is correct, which it may well not be at this late hour. But I was bored.

Lenses and of course sensor fab costs are another story. As is storage.

[Peter Majtan]

yeah, just to clarify, many of us are starting to use the terms "full frame 35mm" and "Vista Vision" interchangeably.

on a side note, i suppose "Vista Vision" is still a trademarked term that Paramount or whatever would not allow others to use?

hehe... i could buy a 5Dm2, deck it out with a viewfinder, recorder, mattebox, focus, etc, and tell clients, "Yes, I can shoot your project in Digital Vista Vision!" :)

Yes indeed Tom. I personally like to use "F35" (as compared to "S35") where "F" stands for "Full Frame", but I suppose it should really be "FF35"... :innocent: ...to avoid confusion with "certain" company's (mis)use of the term... :devil:

[cinemano]

will the epic be able to have a Contax or Nikon mount?

[Jannard]

will the epic be able to have a Contax or Nikon mount?

Yes. Nikon for sure...

Jim

[Jonathon Laing]

Is there ever going to be a point where all three cameras wont need to be back ordered? So we can just go pick one up once you got the money.

[Roberto Lequeux]

yes... just have to let the company get up and running first... they are putting out tons of products, and all the main products (cameras etc..) are all revolutionary... good things don't come easy... at least not in the first two years, then it might be like Apple :)

[Peter Majtan]

Yes. Nikon for sure...

Jim

I guess that rules out medium format for Epic - sorry Tom! :)

[Bing Bailey]

that point is getting very close RED just sent out emails for orders all the way up to 4300

[tylerhawes]

I know it's been said before, but since you're opening up the design phase some more on Epic...

It would be wonderful to have a 4:3 sensor so we could use anamorphic lenses for 2.39:1 aspect ratio. i.e. a 5K by 4K sensor would allow this and likely still resolve 4k x 3k MTF resolution.

[Joseph Ward]

Hope its 4:3 also.

[Matthew Lochman]

I guess that rules out medium format for Epic - sorry Tom! :)
not necessarily....

[Stephen Williams]

Yes indeed Tom. I personally like to use "F35" (as compared to "S35") where "F" stands for "Full Frame", but I suppose it should really be "FF35"... :innocent: ...to avoid confusion with "certain" company's (mis)use of the term... :devil:

Hi,

What about Leica format? Which is how it was described for many years since Leica popularized the format some 90 years ago.

Stephen

[Jannard]

Hi,

What about Leica format? Which is how it was described for many years since Leica popularized the format some 90 years ago.

Stephen

While I am a big Leica collector (Oscar Barnack's original camera, Luxus, 250GG with motor, MPs,etc.), we now internally refer to the primary sensor sizes as:

2/3"
S35
FF35
645
617

Not that you guys are stuck with that. Just sayin'.

Jim

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

Medium Format sensor (645-617) would bring into the picture all those beautiful lenses, like good old Hasselblad's, not the new plastic ones but V series. Those lenses, are incredible and super reliable. Their quality exceeds your expectations in every way, and just imagine one of those lenses on a 5K camera... Yummy. Hope this project goes that way and that a mount will be released for those kind of lenses.

[Peter Majtan]

While I am a big Leica collector (Oscar Barnack's original camera, Luxus, 250GG with motor, MPs,etc.), we now internally refer to the primary sensor sizes as:

2/3"
S35
FF35
645
617

Not that you guys are stuck with that. Just sayin'.

Jim

Since You have omitted 16, S15 & 35 (amongst few other) - is it safe to assume that this is a list of RED sensors???

2/3" - Scarlet
S35 - Red One
FF35 - EPIC and/or DSMC
645 - EPIC and/or DSMC
617 - EPIC and/or DSMC

Just askin'. :)

[Cüneyt Kaya]

jim, small question...

when epic will be released, is it like

1.who pays first get it first (then i will wire the money immediatly)
2. reservation number rules----hope i dont have to wait 6-12 months, or i buy a used red one between serial 100-200 now.
3. make a new reservation and if you have a red you can trade it in.----take my reservation now.
4. dont worry, you will wait no longer then 4 weeks

you see, the fence sitters gave me a trauma :)

[Sanjin Jukic]

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/IMS_RED_Hasselblad80mm.jpg
Hasselblad Carl Zeiss 80mm f/2.8 T* is already tested on RED using Hasselblad to EOS and IMS for RED mount and adapters.

[Paris Remillard]

While I am a big Leica collector (Oscar Barnack's original camera, Luxus, 250GG with motor, MPs,etc.), we now internally refer to the primary sensor sizes as:

2/3"
S35
FF35
645
617

Not that you guys are stuck with that. Just sayin'.

Jim

617? As in medium format panoramic? Hmm......

[Jannard]

jim, small question...

when epic will be released, is it like

1.who pays first get it first (then i will wire the money immediatly)
2. reservation number rules----hope i dont have to wait 6-12 months, or i buy a used red one between serial 100-200 now.
3. make a new reservation and if you have a red you can trade it in.----take my reservation now.
4. dont worry, you will wait no longer then 4 weeks


Not sure yet...

Jim

[Jannard]

617? As in medium format panoramic? Hmm......

Don't get carried away... these are the common sizes we see being used going forward, but not necessarily by us.

Jim

[Roberto B]

let the man work it out.. less talk much soup..

[Andrew Benz]

Not sure yet...

Jim

I sincerely hope it is by serial number... Although I did not get mine immediately when it came up, there was no "fence sitting" on my part. I simply saw an opportunity to pay cash for everything instead of loan and waited a few weeks until one of my clients had paid me in full. Immediately after that huge check cleared, I wired the funds over to my man Randy at RED.

At that point and time in the delivery process, it was very much a moving target and learning curve for Red and it's immediate customers. Since there were many starts and stops by Red early in the game, which was completely understandable btw- we all had signed up for it, maybe Red can do the same for us.

Btw, I really appreciate Red's decision to stay true to the reservations holders on the 18-85mm zoom. As a small business owner living outside of a major Camera rental market, I would have been severely hurt by the decision to send out the zooms according to delivery date.

Thank you for being flexible and like no other company on this planet.:gun:

There is no way in hell that I could afford the incredible images that I am getting today with any other camera system. I would be one of the many unfortunate "screwed" without my Red #557. It changed my world. Again, Thank You Jim!

[Stephen Williams]

I sincerely hope it is by serial number... !

Hopefully not.

[Roberto B]

Hopefully not.it would be a red scandal if the naysayers will have the right to touch anything before who has supported jim and jarred.. wait your turn.. in the meantime you have your beloved and helpful expensive 35 mm tools.. or aren't they useful anymore? :sarcasm:

[Jannard]

One thing that is for sure... RED ONE owners will have the 1st crack at EPIC. Either to trade in or to buy. We do believe in supporting those that believed in us. The production should go much smoother on Epic so the wait time will not be as long.

As for details of exactly how we will administrate this... we are working on that, but building the camera comes 1st.

Jim

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

Hasselblad Carl Zeiss 80mm f/2.8 T* is already tested on RED using Hasselblad to EOS and IMS for RED mount and adapters.

That looks awesome.

[Roberto B]

yet.. do not forget the company slogan.. sort of mission statement:

We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude.

[Stephen Williams]

it would be a red scandal if the naysayers will have the right to touch anything before who has supported jim and jarred.. wait your turn.. in the meantime you have your beloved and helpful expensive 35 mm tools.. or aren't they useful anymore? :sarcasm:

Hi,

Still shooting lots of 35mm, usually on very expensive rented equipment whilst my 3 packages collect dust:biggrin: I like to use the best & most suitable equipment for any particular shoot.

Stephen

[Roberto B]

no doubts.. jokes apart.. your portfolio speaks by itself.

you could just be less tech-arrogants there at your inner circle.. the history of filmmaking is plenty of men more than high tech.

[PitFire]

hi when will you guys reveal the epic and scarlet news?

[Tom Lowe]

pit, someone mentioned November when i asked that same question recently. i have no idea if that is the case, though.

[Luis Caffesse]

Jim mentioned "early November" over on ScarletUser as the target to release all Scarlet specs and details -
but I'm not certain if the Epic details will be released at the same time.

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Hopefully not. Hopefully yes ;-)

[PitFire]

ok thanks !! i have one red and another one comming in november and i wanna know if the market ask offten for HS(it doesn't have to be a 1000 fps phantom 300 fps 2k will do normaly we use 435 extreame our sr3 adv hs ) if i trade my first red for the epic or if i upgrade it (i don't know if the upgrade will give me more fps ).

the epic will be 100 fps 5k
+/- 150 4k
+/- 300 3k
and +/- 600 2k
m i right ?

this are the "old" spec and i supose this are with high compression rate so i dont mind they reduce fps if they lower the compression rate something better than redcode 36 (like redcode 40 ):tongue:

[Rob Martin]

mix a Scarlet and an Epic and you get a Sceptic?

hmm, so buy a red and get an earlier upgrade......

In the meantime, a 5D Mark II might have to do....

daggnabbit!!

[cadoux]

Sorry, it's difficult for me to read English.

A D-cinema camera must be quiet and to have an optical viewfinder (with a reserve, like movie camera Aaton, arri or like leica M).

[Jannard]

Sorry, it's difficult for me to read English.

A D-cinema camera must be quiet and to have an optical viewfinder (with a reserve, like movie camera Aaton, arri or like leica M).

We have sold 5000 RED ONEs without an optical finder. What should we do?

Welcome to reduser. My response is a bit tongue in cheek, but the welcome is very sincere.

Jim

[Charles Angus]

An optical finder is nice, but an evf offers more for d-cinema. Exposure, for one. The only real advantage is that it is always on (now that we have lookaround on RED).

[Peter Majtan]

Another advantage is that You actually see what the sensor is capturing. On Till Human Voices Wake Us I ended up fixing 700 frames of the closing sequence's "money shot" because a bug got stuck in a gate and left a 2~3mm thick smudge line through the whole shot. Of course no one knew until they have processed the shot in the lab... The director thought it was impossible to fix...

[Lenny Manfred]

please, you guys are scaring me. i am about to pluck $20,000 on the angenieux rouge (my place in the 18-85 line is way to far down the line) and i am terrified to do so because of the protrusion in the back. i plan to trade for the epic when it becomes available, and want to know that this lens will work. anyone?

[Stephen Williams]

Another advantage is that You actually see what the sensor is capturing. On Till Human Voices Wake Us I ended up fixing 700 frames of the closing sequence's "money shot" because a bug got stuck in a gate and left a 2~3mm thick smudge line through the whole shot. Of course no one knew until they have processed the shot in the lab... The director thought it was impossible to fix...

Hi,

Clearly they forget the age old tradition of checking the gate.

Stephen

[cadoux]

We have sold 5000 RED ONEs without an optical finder. What should we do?

This is not a criterion of quality.
Lomo and Traban have sold very well too.



Welcome to reduser. My response is a bit tongue in cheek, but the welcome is very sincere.
Merci !
I do not doubt your sincerity.

I am just disappointed.
I can not use the Red.
It is not silent continuously.

For my documentary, I want 'the cat on the shoulder', like an Aaton.
Can you do it?

friendly and full of hope,

--
Laurent
(Europe and FWI)

[Jannard]

It is not silent continuously.

For my documentary, I want 'the cat on the shoulder', like an Aaton.
Can you do it?

friendly and full of hope,

--
Laurent
(Europe and FWI)

It is not silent in pause but, correct me if I am wrong RED users, it is more quiet than an Aaton while rolling (except in extreme heat).

Just curious... what does the Aaton NOT do that makes you consider something else? If you don't mind shooting film, it is a nice option.

Jim

[cadoux]

Thank you for your attention.

Sorry for my poor English.
Google translate helps me as he can!

40 to 60 hours of rushes (stock + lab) in S16 is too expensive for me.
I like D-cinema concept and Red concept for that.

My sound engineer also enjoys the silence during breaks.
And in Martinique, it is 35 degrees c.

[J. Eric Camp]

I love Aatons. I have shot with the XTRP often and it is in fact my favorite 16mm camera.

You say you want the "cat on the shoulder" aspect of Aatons but that is in the design and form factor of the Aatons. That is a dimensional design principal. You are asking Jim / Red to design you a new camera?

You also think that the R1's operating noise in 35°c is too loud?

...
...
...

I don't think either request is reasonable.
...
...
...

Moving on.

[Matt Uhry]

You say you want the "cat on the shoulder" aspect of Aatons but that is in the design and form factor of the Aatons. That is a dimensional design principal. You are asking Jim / Red to design you a new camera?


Asking for ergonomics that are as good - or maybe ever better than an aaton xtr seems to me very relevant. It's already been discussed here at great length here. I'm optimistic that the ergonomics of the epic will be pretty good.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Michael Lindsay]

A consideration that seems less often mentioned:

I have just about got our Reds into a fit for 'our' purpose state. They are littered with 3rd party bits, Red accessories and home made alterations. I'm already expecting to throw away alot of stuff but starting completely again is an awkward ask.

I'm happy to throw away everything if the camera is exactly the ergonomics I prefer. Since this is unlikely (as it is a personal thing) I would like to use as much 'stuff' as possible.

Questions that I don't think have been answered:

Will Red ram work with Epic?
If yes what frame rates?
Will Red drives work?
The new 16gb cards?
Will epic pull less juice?

regards

Michael

PS all considered I'd put up with anything if they deliver 100fps full frame with 3 more stops

[fde101]

Will Red ram work with Epic?

This was answered on another thred -- the answer was yes.

[Brook Willard]

Hey Jim, any thoughts on when we'll get to see a glimpse of the new Epic? If you guys really are doing a ground-up redesign, I can't wait to see what you come up with. Where the Epic was at the last time we saw it was a pretty good spot... I'm interested to see what's changed since then.

[Permendez Rego]

Early November.

[Jason George]

Hey Jim, please provide tecnhnical specifications of what the 5K Epic will be able to do that the RED ONE does not.

Much thanks,
jason@jasongeorge.com
Jason George.

[Jannard]

Hey Jim, please provide tecnhnical specifications of what the 5K Epic will be able to do that the RED ONE does not.

Much thanks,
jason@jasongeorge.com
Jason George.

Nov. 13th.

Jim

[Martin Weiss]

What? Red One does not do Nov. 13th?

Kidding, I am kidding.

[Alain DEUDJUI]

Jim,Now that i know for sure you own a foundry for Monstro sensor,i won't be surprise if you are heading to a full RED DIGITAL ECO-SYSTEM.I have nothing against japanase manufacturers except to the fact that they hold and control the US market for so long without a MAD ANSWER like yours.Silicon valley need to back you up for real and follow your lead here.America is waking up from a very long sleep and you are the answer in a way like Barack Obama.The best brains are still from the US and EUROPE period.

[Alain DEUDJUI]

Jim i can tell you learn a lot from the german school of optics because the new formats you just introduce are exclusive from german large formats for decades(617-612-679)
building a video pipeline from these will remain TEAM RED mandate under your lead.I am glad you are the One who stood up for this new century.Now i feel like to go back behind cameras.I knew graeme will pull off redcode 500 he is a master genius who is only aware of 1/1000 of his capability.thank you Jim for doing your homework before bragging up.

[Alain DEUDJUI]

next 4k lcd,8k projector?