Red One dilemma...

[Peter Majtan]

OK Jim, please hear me out...

I know how important Red One is to the current positioning of RED in the market. It is Red One that gives all the credibility to Your posts and announcements. And I know You have not only promised to not to make it obsolete, but You have also generously offered the 100% refund for the body towards EPIC...

All said and done - I think the only way to move forward is to "kill" Red One in its current shape & form. Before anyones attacks me - please read on...

Considering that EPIC will be lot smaller, lighter and of course more advanced, we still have to keep in mind the $40K price tag. I am about to commit $100K on first own Red One package. Granted about 3/4 of that is for accessories that I will be using with any other camera that may come out. And I am certainly not hesitating in going ahead, since the main reason for getting the Red One is to upgrade it to EPIC...

As silly as it might sound - I believe it is the Red One and Your commitment to it - that holds You back and gives You many sleepless nights...

You don't want to piss off the few (thousands) of loyal followers that helped You turn RED into reality...

I think I have a solution:

Red One - mark II:

- use the same body as EPIC (will bring the overall manufacturing cost down)
- give it new internals that address the processing power, speed and heat issues
- give it a new S35 sensor the resolves "true" 4K (that means 5.4K or there about) - EDIT: Optional... :)
- my ONLY issue with Red One is the limited frame-rates - if You want to go up to 120FPS You need to drop to 2K and either use completely new set of lenses, or loose the wide angles. So please make it higher speed without having to reduce resolution...

Keep the body at the current 17.5K (or there about) and do the following:

- all owners of current Red Ones will get free swap to the new body as soon as it is available...
- all reservation holders will get the new version once it is available - with the option to wait for the new design...
- those who really need RED camera now and can't wait - will still buy the Red One if they know they can upgrade it to the new model with full trade-in/swap, but keep in mind that not everyone want to swap to $40K Epic...

Maybe the new changes to EPIC/SCARLET will address this issue in a different (and better) way...

It is still not too late - and what ever happens, I am still getting Red One (as for me it really is a deposit for EPIC). But I think the time has come to let Red One current shape & form go...

She will be remembered and cherished for eternity - no doubt there, but let's not linger in the past...

Just my one peso... :)

PS: I am running a high fever and maybe it is just my overcooked brain talking here - so please read this with a grain of salt... :)

[Joseph Ward]

I can here the RedOne owners about to pounce!:waaa:

[Peter Majtan]

Why would they? With what I am proposing everyone would be happy...

[Michael "Dorkman" Scott]

I guess we'll have to see what the new Epic specs are, because as it is, your proposal is "Give all R1 owners a free upgrade to Epic."

Which owners would be happy with, but I doubt RED would be.

[Peter Majtan]

I still think EPIC will have full 35mm still sensor size (Vistavision)...

[Stephen Williams]

I still think EPIC will have full 35mm still sensor size (Vistavision)...

Hi,

Most unlikely as PL motion picture lenses will be useless.

Stephen

[Bing Bailey]

not necessarily. red could create custom lenses for that size like imax and then let you use pl mount lenses on a 4k windowed portion of the sensor just like is possible with 16mm lenses now

[Clint Johnson]

What you're asking is for Red to sell everyone two cameras for the price of one and how could Red be happy with losing money on every Red One sale?

The price for a Red One is phenomenal compared to the other cinema camera manufacturers and the profit margin can't be very wide on it - add up the cost of research and development, the manufacturing of the body itself and then the fixed overhead of the company.

So let's do the math. Red lays out (wild guess) $15,500 for a Red One and sells it to us for $17,500. Then it costs them a further $15,500 for a Red One Mrk II that they just hand over to use in exchange for the Red One.

$15,500 + $15,500 - $17,500 = $13,500

So either they lose $13,500 on every Red One sale or they turn around and try to sell the traded in Red One for nearly the price of a brand new Red One Mrk II and who in their right mind would pay that unless they could trade it in on a Red One Mrk II... putting Red in a money losing cycle.

The full cost trade in on the Epic is a very generous offer that is only possible because the Epic is going to be that much more expensive than the Red One. I also think that they will have to restrict that offer to the original purchaser of the Red One or, if they want to sell the traded in Red Ones back to the public, they will have to restrict each body to being traded in only once toward an Epic.

So I think that if I trade in Red #351 on an Epic, then Red refurbishes it and sells it back out to the public, never again could Red #351 be traded for a new Epic.

Of course, the numbers above are guesses used to illustrate a point and the speculation on trade in policy is simply that- speculation.

[Julio Quintana]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19424

[Joel Kaye]

I think RED should end of life RED ONE for a variety of reasons (mostly support/bugs/too many products etc), but they should raise the price to $25K-$30K and call that product EPIC. Give everyone the $17,500 trade. We were always going to pay for RED ONE upgrade... it's just whether it was $3000 or $10000. And if you want to keep the RED you can, but at those numbers I think you'd see most trade up. Put a time limit on the trade offer and nearly everyone would do it. Now there's only 2 products.. the truly modular EPIC and whatever Scarlet/Still Camera turns out to be (I think that should be one product if possible)

Then again... RED's going to a lot of trouble to upgrade i/pin and audio data in RED ONE so maybe they don't plan to kill it. Or maybe they do.

But a free EPIC trade for every RED isn't reasonable. RED ONE is worth $40k right now.

edit - I want to add that I don't think RED owes a solution like the one above. They've been more than fair already. And EPIC at $40K with a RED trade in is generous. I'm just saying that's what I'd be considering if I ran the show because I think supporting both RED and EPIC might be a costly burden - but I don't have enough information as I sit here in the cheap seats second guessing the coach ('cause it's fun!). :-)

[Jaime Vallés]

Interesting idea, Peter. It really will be fascinating to see what RED officially announces in the coming weeks.

[Joseph Ward]

What about combining Epic/Scarlet/DSMC call it a RedTwo and sell for the same price as RedOne! RedOne be discontinued(as far as new ones go), but have firmware updates and upgradeable everything as usual. Make RedTwo cameras as the ''New'' Red bad boy.:devil:


Or just keep making RedOne(because of S35 size sensor) and make RedTwo(Full Frame 35mm Still Sensor Camera) both at the same price!
Or lower RedOne price and have RedTwo $17,500.
Or Keep RedOne price and have RedTwo slightly higher price.
Or Keep RedOne price and have RedTwo lower price.

[Luis Caffesse]

It really will be fascinating to see what RED officially announces in the coming weeks.

Or coming days.... or coming hours.....

(fingers crossed)

[Joseph Ward]

This is another idea.

RedTwo

RedTwo is very similar approach to RedOne but built for the differ Sensor Size.

Have Red make a Modular/upgradeable Full Frame Still Camera, DSMC, then build up to Scarlet, and then all the way to Epic and beyond. Have a three level starting plan then build up, with price, for individual needs. Price and names are not important since it is a RedTwo camera built/configured differently for the customers needs.

1- DSMC $1500
2- Scarlet $3000
3- Epic $17,500+

RedOne is still active for any S35mm camera needs.

[Sven Seynaeve]

I think you all just ask to much.
How many times in your life , have you experienced a trade in at full value.
I'm even happy when i get 1/2 for a german car right now after 2 or 3 years.
And even then i can't sell it to the dealer or I'm ripped off.

I think Red has been real kind to us to offer this kind of future deal.
But the less a total package will cost, imho, the faster this whole business will get doomed until there's nothing left.

The degradation off currency and the lowering of asking prices for productions and the higher costs for living a normal life are already out of balance for most off us right now. So I suppose , when you lower that again, people won't appreciate anything anymore , and expect always much more...

Red has given us a way to think, where there was none before...

If we just want to get prices lower, then we should be asking all parties; software, hardware, etc...

[Joseph Ward]

Peter... You are right because Red said you can trade in RedOne for deposit towards Epic.

I think Red would be loosing money IF Redone and Epic is similar in price range and everyone starts to buy Epic or just want RedOne till they can get a Epic. Then what happens is the RedOnes start to accumulate and Red has more RedOnes left over unless they sell back used RedOnes at a discount price. Anyone who just wants a New RedOne can have it, but Red should also sell used ones.

Red shouldn't be hampered with old tech, but keep making free firmware upgrades and let the customer pay for hardware upgrades if they really have a nit pick or whatever? Red should only pay for hardware upgrades if it is their fault. :red_bandana:

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

Often a company will destroy equipment accepted in part exchange, I guess that was or will be the fate of the Vipers traded for F23's.

Stephen

[Joseph Ward]

Hi,

Often a company will destroy equipment accepted in part exchange, I guess that was or will be the fate of the Vipers traded for F23's.

Stephen

If Red decides to destroy used RedOnes can I take care of that process? :shifty: I will gladly take them off their hands.:innocent:

[Vladimir Eugene]

Artificial Inflation- It's impossible for a computer, digital camera, etc to maintain full value year after year. As technology advances it depreciates- you can't help that.

A RED ONE plus the Mysterium-X upgrade Est. 10K
Monstro upgrade Est. 15K
you'd probably be looking at 41K without the improved heat circulation, or boards or circuitry.

Jump to the Epic at a bargain, less than cost of upgrading, and continued Value Retention 2 years plus.

Keep the Red don't upgrade 17.5K- if it's enough for you that's great- how many horses does anyone really need?

Scarlett- I suspect with the New Canon 1080, and the Ikon 1080 it will be more robust and cost 8K.

So 4 tiers- as in any business,pick the one that suits you best

[Roberto B]

Scarlett- I suspect with the New Canon 1080, and the Ikon 1080 it will be more robust and cost 8K.and let the crowd for the majors?.. :) :) your business model is a decent joke..

[Jannard]

A good deal is when both parties are happy... why not wait for our announcement and then voice your opinion? :-)

Jim

[Jannard]

In the meantime... there is NO downside to owning a RED ONE.

Jim

[Cristina S]

and let the crowd for the majors?.. :) :) your business model is a decent joke..I agree.

- Cristina Scabbia

[Peter Majtan]

Hi guys, Hi Jim,

unfortunately my post was interpreted (mostly) in the wrong way. Please allow me to clarify...:

A) The point I was trying to make and discuss is that "I" personally believe that it is the "Red One dilemma" that has been giving some headache to Jim. Maybe I am completely wrong, but this is what I believe. Why? Because Jim is such a nice guy. He is genuinely worried about his loyal followers and he cherishes them all the time. This is why he has offered the 100% trade-in for Epic. No one has ever done that before and it is a very generous offer which Jim was not obliged to make... And yet he did... Few days ago they had a major break-through in their vision and strategy. This must have been something huge, since they are completely revamping both Epic and Scarlet. How huge? Definitely huge enough for it to affect the current Red One. While the 100% trade-in does address those who will go for Epic, it does not address those who don't want it, or can't afford it... And this is the dilemma I am talking about. I think Jim wants to be fair and reward his most loyal followers, but at the same time he can't hold back the natural progression of his vision...

B) What I have proposed with the Red One mark II was simply an opinion. Many people are quick to pint out a problems and play a blame game. If I see a problem I always like to present it with a possible solution. I know that such a solution makes no financial sense to RED, but so does the 100% trade-in for EPIC - unless they floated up the price of EPIC to absorb the "upgrade" cost - which I simply refuse to believe - call me blind or what ever... In that light the Red One mark II makes as much sense as the trade-in for EPIC - and it does address those Red One owners who have no intention to upgrade to EPIC for what ever reason...

C) Unlike those of You who have had their Red Ones for a while and were able to "cash-in" on the initial rental hype, we (who are about to get theirs) are in a very different situation. Not only the market is getting slowly saturated, but the EPIC & Scarlet bombs are about to fall... I have been personally renting the Red Ones for some time now and I will be getting mine next month no matter what happens with EPIC or Scarlet. I am one of those "lucky" ones who actually treat Red One as "deposit" for EPIC and as such whatever happens it won't affect me at all... But I do have a few close friends who are genuinely concerned about the latest developments...

I have personally no intention to keep the Red One. It is a brilliant piece of engineering and I have been having a lots of fun with it and will continue to do so until EPIC & Scarlet is out. But there is one single issue that I have with Red One. The resolution, image quality, RAW compression, DR & SNR and many other things are top notch and already almost overkill for me. The only remaining negative factor for me is the limited higher frame rates. You need to drop down the resolution to 3K for 60FPS and 2K for 120FPS. Now it is not the resolution that worries me - is that You loose the wide angles due to the sensor crop, unless You get additional 2/3" glass to take care of that... EPIC (and Scarlet) will not only address that, but will also offer a more compact size and lighter body - which is a concern for the type of projects I will be mostly doing (NatGeo & Discovery type of docos in many remote locations).


Now look at it from the point of view of all those who "snapped" at my post:

According to You I could have just said:

"Jim, the time has come to damp Red One in its current shape and form and bring on Red Two, EPIC, Scarlet and DSMC. Unfortunately compared to these four (or three?/two?) products the RED One is obsolete... State-of-the-art, but obsolete. Screw any trade-in or other similar program and do what everyone else does - offer a new product and charge for it! In any case, unlike most of Your competitors, You are actually offering a brand new generation of products, not a minor upgrade. Those who just bought Red One are simply out of luck. Just like when You buy a new Macbook Pro and Apple releases new model the next week. Red One will continue to serve for some time and will allow many to continue to produce beautiful content - no doubt... But let's move on with the program..."

Can You imagine the response such a post would get?!?

So please - re-read my first post and re-read this clarification. If You understand my point for this thread - the "Red One dilemma" - and You also believe this to be the case here - please do not hesitate to suggest a solution and/or an opinion about how such a dilemma should be dealt with from YOUR point of view. I am sure Jim would love to hear how we feel about this...

But if You don't have anything to contribute - please do not attack me...

With all due respect and Kindest Regards,

Peter

[Jannard]

Peter... I'm not attacking you at all. And you are not alone having concern about the future of the RED ONE and it's owners. Technology is moving forward at a high rate of speed. We need to advance. In a world where customers are left in the cold by this ongoing fact, we consider this heavily in our decision making. We never promised that the RED ONE would always be the best we can do. We promised that our customers would not be left behind. A sensor upgrade insures that. If you get the chance to put a new motor in your old car for a reasonable price... it keeps you more current than not. But we never promised to give you a new car everytime one comes out. Your old car will perform just as well as the new one. It just will not be as shiny.

EPIC has more features than a RED ONE. So it will cost more. If you want those features, we have given an unprecidented roadmap to have it at the least possible expense. We didn't say we will give you 50% credit on a trade-in. 100%. I'm just not sure we can do more than that. We certainly cannot give you a new camera for free everytime we release a new model. There would be no business left.

The RED ONE will be capable of shooting features for a long time. That is a promise that everyone knows is true.

Jim

[Poi Boy]

You are an amazing entrepenuer Jim, inspiring, thank you.
Aloha
-A

[Rami Mustakim]

When the Red One came out, it was the movie camera I was dreaming of...
And it still is today !

I will be happy to upgrade to Epic when it's time but I'm already more than happy to be able to get a Red One.

I find Nikon D90 and Canon EOS Mark II interesting products, but if RED didn't exist Idon't know if I would want one of those...

[jimhare]

I have a Red One. I'm very happy.

Something tells me I'm going to be even happier one day.

Until I know why, I will put my trust in RED and wait.

All good, enough said. :)

[Kreisky]

A good deal is when both parties are happy... why not wait for our announcement and then voice your opinion? :-)

Jim

Hi Jim,
Im not happy at all ! I ordered a RED ONE right afther NAB show.
I ordered a RED ONE beacause you announced the SCARLET with a fixed lense. So I think I will be a bit upset if the SCARLET gets with changable lenses. I wrote yesterday to Mr. Montenegro to cancel my order............

[Rami Mustakim]

Hi Jim,
Im not happy at all ! I ordered a RED ONE right afther NAB show.
I ordered a RED ONE beacause you announced the SCARLET with a fixed lense. So I think I will be a bit upset if the SCARLET gets with changable lenses. I wrote yesterday to Mr. Montenegro to cancel my order............

Kreisky don't cancel your order yet.
If your Red number is before mine I'll have yours !

[Kreisky]

Kreisky don't cancel your order yet.
If your Red number is before mine I'll have yours !

I want to make my life as easy as possible......
We are very close.....we will get it about the same time !

Bruno

[Peter Majtan]

Jim, You were not attacking at all, it was Don Julio with his rushed interpretation of my post. I guess I am done with that brand of tequila... :)

Nor I am expecting to get a free car from You every time You make one. I've based it solely on Your generous offer to full trade-in for EPIC - which I, personally, will definitely take advantage of...

RED has changed my life in a way You can't even imagine and I am placing all my bets on JJ's version of the future. You have shown more then You were ever asked for to make us believe that You won't left anyone behind...

We get practically new camera to work with every month for FREE with every new build update. Throw in all the FREE HW upgrades and You leave no space for complaining. All I can hope is that my posts are never interpreted as such. I am always trying to be constructive and add value to this community. Not the other way round...

Enough said...

Here is to You Jim and Your team...

http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/watchdog/blog/cheers.jpg

[James T Mather]

as it is, your proposal is "Give all R1 owners a free upgrade to Epic."



ha ha.

[Steven Caesare]

OK Jim, please hear me out...



Myopic post of the year.

Did these cameras that can generate pictures with better fidelity than just about any movie house can ever hope to project somehow just get dropped in to an ecology where their image has all of the sudden become inadequate? :huh:

[Peter Majtan]

Myopic post of the year.

Did these cameras that can generate pictures with better fidelity than just about any movie house can ever hope to project somehow just get dropped in to an ecology where their image has all of the sudden become inadequate? :huh:

Who have said anything like that besides You?

[Joseph Ward]

Another Idea,

I think whatever Reds Cameras are, I hope that due to changes in the market and sales of their own they should lower(or heaven forbid higher) their camera lines maybe every year. If in the market/Red people are going for DSLR HD Movie Mode Full Frame Still Interchangeable Lens Mount, then Red should have their cameras the same price as the market if not cheaper. So even if this DSLR has a bigger sensor(maybe Epic) it should be lower than a RedOne.
If the market ever makes a S35 sensor cameras cheaper then a RedOne, then the RedOnes should fallow or lead in that price drop!

Cameras shouldn't be fixed priced based on sensor size. Tech is changing and the market is also. :red_bandana:

[John Logan]

"More! More! More!", like greedy pigs...

Honestly, the sheer gall of some people on this site. Peter, you should be ashamed of yourself.

There's a difference between pushing the envelope, and biting the hand that feeds.

Here's an idea, build your own camera from
the ground up, and then do all the things you've suggested yourself.

[Benni Diez]

Please, just chill.
Up until now every serious new announcement from Red was mindblowing and exceeding all expectations. Why should that have suddenly changed now?
Go shoot some good movies in the meantime.

[Peter Majtan]

Logan, You have clearly not read the entire thread and the "accompanying" Don Julio's thread linked on the first page of this thread. You are way out of line and it is You who should be ashamed...

Same goes for Scaesare. It is easy to misunderstand written text - especially one written in English. Instead of attacking and insulting others You should ask for clarification and/or explain Your point of view. I guess this is too much for some. Also misinterpreting & twisting one's words and then presenting them as his/hers "original" statement is little childish. I am still waiting for You (Scaesare) to show me where I have said such a thing. The problem with such a posts is that others might not read the whole thread and only see Your last misleading statement and this create endless cycle of hatred and conflicts. Why people can't just get along? I don't get it...

Hopefully soon You will understand what I've meant...

Peter

[Steven Caesare]

Logan, You have clearly not read the entire thread and the "accompanying" Don Julio's thread linked on the first page of this thread. You are way out of line and it is You who should be ashamed...

Same goes for Scaesare. It is easy to misunderstand written text - especially one written in English. Instead of attacking and insulting others You should ask for clarification and/or explain Your point of view. I guess this is too much for some. Also misinterpreting & twisting one's words and then presenting them as his/hers "original" statement is little childish. I am still waiting for You (Scaesare) to show me where I have said such a thing. The problem with such a posts is that others might not read the whole thread and only see Your last misleading statement and this create endless cycle of hatred and conflicts. Why people can't just get along? I don't get it...

Hopefully soon You will understand what I've meant...

Peter

The premise you based your post on is what I found short sighted.

[Joseph Ward]

I can here the RedOne owners about to pounce!:waaa:


Why would they? With what I am proposing everyone would be happy...

Peter, I thought this would happen even though I know you meant well. Topics like these are sometimes better at Scarletuser because the people their are not so defensive(sometimes lol). One thing that I notice here at Reduser is some have had this elitist attitude ever since NAB 2008. I remember the free changes of ideas that made this site so good with everyone being respectful regardless of other peoples experience or lack their of. Granted not always but not as often disrespectful. I wish this site can be that way again.:blush: All you were tying to do is help Red and everyone! So thank you for standing up for what you believe and tying to help. :biggrin:

[Meryem Ersoz]

The RED ONE will be capable of shooting features for a long time. That is a promise that everyone knows is true.


This is the authentic truth and is what matters. The rest is just noise.

"Making obsolescence obsolete" doesn't mean, "we will never make new technologies again." It means that the ones that they put in your hands will be so far ahead of the curve that you won't need to upgrade. You may want to, but you won't NEED to, in order to make the best possible images.

With a sensor upgrade program for RED ONE and an EPIC upgrade for 100% of cost, it's as good as it's gonna get.

Now, about that RED-RAY....

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

"More! More! More!", like greedy pigs...

Honestly, the sheer gall of some people on this site. Peter, you should be ashamed of yourself.

There's a difference between pushing the envelope, and biting the hand that feeds.

Here's an idea, build your own camera from
the ground up, and then do all the things you've suggested yourself.

Wow, that was totally uncalled for.
Peter post was completely well reasoned and constructive.


Why people can't just get along? I don't get it...

Hopefully soon You will understand what I've meant...

I don't get it either.

[mezmo]

Hi guys,
Offerings from Nikon, Cannon and others have certainly raised to bar for
all RED's future products. Epic has to be a very different camera from RED ONE moving forward in development.
You may have noticed that things have changed quickly in the RED camp of late.
Future models are being redesigned.
Because of this I'm now looking forward to the arrival of EPIC. If it's anything like RED ONE, I'll be most upset.

Mezmo

[Peter Majtan]

The premise you based your post on is what I found short sighted.

Now You are just avoiding my question - Where have I ever said anything like what You are accusing myself of? :


Myopic post of the year.

Did these cameras that can generate pictures with better fidelity than just about any movie house can ever hope to project somehow just get dropped in to an ecology where their image has all of the sudden become inadequate? :huh:

This is what I've meant with people "interpreting" one's words and posting them as if that was what one has said... (and others reacting to this "interpretation"...) :devil:

[Tom Lowe]

this thread has run its course.

dont bother with trolls, peter.

[Peter Majtan]

You're right Tom...

Any mods visiting? Feel free to close this thread... :)

[Jarred Land]

closed...