Pointing a a RED at the SUN

[Drew Mylrea]

I'm sure that this has been discussed at other forums, and I have heard from previous camera manufacturer's NEVER to point my CCD cams at the sun, however, sometimes you just want that sun action (as I have with my DSLR to no problems), so how bad is this for the RED's sensor? I guess film is great because it's a new imager every 1/24th of a second and you can film pretty much whatever you want - do the same rules apply to the CMOS sensor as long as it's not for hours?

[Ralph Oshiro]

I'm sure that this has been discussed at other forums, and I have heard from previous camera manufacturer's NEVER to point my CCD cams at the sun . . .
Who told you that? I point my $65,000 Betacam at work at the sun all the time! Just don't stay on it too long (burning ants theory). Long ago (late 1970s/early 1980s), it was sacriledge to point a TUBE video camera at the sun (Saticon, Plumbicon, etc.), since tube-based imagers were far more easily damaged than modern CCD imagers. CMOS' claim to fame is their resistance to vertical smear, so CMOS cameras should do even better when pointed at the sun.

[Mike Prevette]

The sun can still hurt film cameras as well. With a wide lens on a camera with a focal plane shutter such as most Panavisions, you can burn a hole in the shutter with the sun.

_mike

[ericyoung]

Long exposures at sunrise and sunset should be no problem, as the sunlight is filtered through much more atmosphere and so is correspondingly weaker. That's probably around the time you would want to shoot the sun anyway.

I would be more careful of prolonged static shots of the sun on a cloudless day, especially around midday! Moving shots should again be no problem.

[laguun]

the sun can be dangerous for EVFs as well - the sony HDCAM 30, serial ~3 we blew in kenia is a testemonial for this.

even more menacing - lasers. they can eat ccds for lunch, i don´t know how vulnerable CMOS is for laser however.

[Mark B.]

The heat from the sun's rays can melt oils and debris that might be sitting on the lens and imaging surfaces, resulting in less than perfect light-capturing. And once those foreign substances are burnt onto the surface, it's nearly impossible to get them off.

[mdo]

If one is filming the complete sunset, from sufficiently far above the horizon down to where the sun has disappeared, it would require a half hour or more of constant exposure. Are there any reliable rules that one can follow to ensure the sensor won't be damaged? It strikes me as something that I'm not inclined to be trying any time soon.

[chuck colburn]

The sun can still hurt film cameras as well. With a wide lens on a camera with a focal plane shutter such as most Panavisions, you can burn a hole in the shutter with the sun.

_mike

Mike,

Are you saying a wide angle lens (or for that fact a lens of any focal length) pointed at the sun is going to burn a hole in a metal focal plane shutter? Or better yet a mirror shutter? I don't think so.

[Mike Prevette]

certainly not a mirror shutter. But the few film cameras that have a "focal plane shutter" and a pellicle mirror or other non reflex viewing system can be damaged with wide angle lenses and long term sun exposure. For example timelapse shots with long delays between exposures. The reasoning why wide angle lenses are more prone to this is because they are projecting a much smaller image of the sun (hence more heat in a smaller area) and the movement of the sun across the frame appears slower (more time for the sun to heat a small area of shutter blade. And yes it is enough heat to damage a metal shutter blade (they are very thin)

_mike

[Jeremy Hughes]

I thought it was just a myth. I've been shooting the sun with my cameras for years. But hardly ever do I have to leave it pointing at the sun for hours.

I think the large sensor on the RED ONE will have a real advantage, that way all the sun light isn't concentrated on tiny little sensors.

Is it the magnification with the lens or could a UV filter help your sensor?

[Steven M. Bailey]

Aren't you going to be shooting through multiple filters anyway otherwise you'll experience massive blowout.:umm: That sun is pretty hot.

[Stephen Williams]

Aren't you going to be shooting through multiple filters anyway otherwise you'll experience massive blowout.:umm: That sun is pretty hot.

Hi,

I would angle those filters!

Stephen

[tomcassetta]

Shooting directly at the sun is bad for cameras? Weird...

...and here I was thinking Danny Boyle's new movie was made entirely with in-camera effects :sarcasm:

[chuck colburn]

Hi,

I would angle those filters!

Stephen

LOL

Yeah Stephen....

Doesn't that have something to do with the angles of reflection and incidinces? Oh wait, it's the other way around. lol
Seriously, if you are going to be shooting the sun, might be best to talk to these people. They been at this for awhile.

http://www.thousandoaksoptical.com/

[Steven M. Bailey]

LOL

Yeah Stephen....

Doesn't that have something to do with the angles of reflection and incidinces? Oh wait, it's the other way around. lol
Seriously, if you are going to be shooting the sun, might be best to talk to these people. They been at this for awhile.

http://www.thousandoaksoptical.com/

Hey chuck,
Good link as usual, I thought I could just shoot through my welding helmet. Why is the sun so green. I don't get it.

[chuck colburn]

Hi Steven,

Not quite sure what you mean by green. Are you talking about how it looks thru your welding helmet?

Chuck

PS.
If you are talking about you arc welding helmet it's because the narrow band pass filter seems to be set around 540 angstrom right smack in the middle of the green spectrum where our visual acuity is most sensitive.


3. The arc welding viewing system of claim 2 wherein the preselected band has a 100.degree. A bandwidth centered substantially around 5370.degree. A.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visible_light

[Steven M. Bailey]

Hi Steven,

Not quite sure what you mean by green. Are you talking about how it looks thru your welding helmet?

Chuck

Sorry!

Welding helmets use a super dark green lens and are a good way to view the sun, but its green. Welding puts off similar light and sun burns the crap out of your arms. I have a bad habit of welding in a tee-shirt.....Dumb

[chuck colburn]

Looks like we posted about the same time. lol
See my PS. in my response to your post.

[Steven M. Bailey]

word!

[Michael Brennan]

The only time I have damaged a ccd was using a low cost single chip minicam for a time lapse shot (to timelapse video recorder) in Istanbul.
I believe the problem arose as I used a very wide 3mm lens, so the sun was focused onto a very small part of the ccd. Perhaps just a few pixels.


The sun burnt and traced a pinkish coloured arc across the chip.

3 chip cameras spread the energy across three chips and I haven't heard of ccd damage by sun, but a HD camera block was damaged by a high power laser show in London a few years ago.



Remember that dialing in high shutter speeds does not reduce energy hitting the chip. NDs and iris should be used to get your exposure in the ball park.


It would be interesting to see what would happen to a single chip large format camera with ultrawide lens if pointed at the sun for an hour or so and exposure was aimed at capturing ambient light level of the foreground.

As a guide, last night I tried a big glowing orb peaking through clouds.
It was an aerial shot using a Cinelfex V14 (with HDC950) 400mm, ND 1/64, F11ish -3db 1000 sec shutter at 20 min before sunset and it was not enough to make the sun orange. Would have worked ten minutes later. Anyway the more interesting shot and the one the client paid for, was the castle the sun was illuminating:)


Mike Brennan

[JohnF]

If you're shooting T-lapse there is a machine that rotates a lens cap like protector over the front of the lens between shutter firings.

Works something like this.

Activate machine

Starts exposure
Ends exposure
Covers Lens
Waits selected interval
Un-covers Lens
Starts exposure...

etc etc

Ends all worries about external conditions f**king up your shot and camera but I've forgotten the name of the bloody thing but I think that Panavison hire it out.
(I made one once, fairly simple too when using electro-mechanical type cams but all digital cams like RED might require more skills)


JohnF

[Jim Arthurs]

John, it's simply called a "capping shutter". Lots of different types, most are home brewed DIY'ish...

Most all older cameras with spinning mirrors would benefit from a capping shutter when there's long delays between exposures, as there is always a greater potential for light leak vrs something like a rack-over Mitchell...

Over the years I've found that if you want to test the film path of any camera for the faintest of light leak, simply run film through it at noon on a bright day at a frame per second or slower...

[JohnF]

Cheers Jim,

That was bugging me as it was on the tip of my tongue!

JohnF

[I Bloom]

Aside from ND's are their specific filters could you use to protect the chip from the sun?

And while I'm at is there a rough guide to just how much direct sunlight the chip can handle per lense, per time of day. Be great to have a chart, if you end up doing a lot of timelapse.

IBloom

[JohnF]

Outside of ND's (and polarisers) there is very little one can do about it.

If your T-lapse is an all day "sun-in-shot" job then a capping shutter is the best protection. (or sit with your camera shading the lens manually in between frames).

At sea-level the suns power is at both infra red and visual wavelengths go to the top of high mountains and you start to get a bit more UV thrown in too.
Because of the sheer amount of energy focussed by the lens and the broad wavelengths involved there is very little one can do except bung strong ND's on the front or cover/shade the lens.

JohnF