1 Week Later - Where's the PJ short?

[sunnyjim]

When are we going to see it? Why aren't we going to see it if the answer is never.

[Álex Montoya]

Hmmm, sunny, just three posts and every single of them used to stir polemic. Your behaviour could without much stress be labelled as trollish.

[peter roehsler]

Sunny, framing RED into defense will get you nowhere. You might have realized by now that this board is about discussing, suggesting and learning. It is visited by people with a lot of respect for a group of guys who have done something unimaginable, t.i. creating this tool in an unheard-of time-frame. That footage will be shown sooner or later, either on www or in a cinema. If you need to know now, because you have to make a buying decision, you should just rent a RED as soon as it is available. Maybe your first-hand experience will tell you more about the camera than a down-rez clip. If you want to express your doubts about quality or the authenticity of the footage shown shown at NAB, why don´t you just say so?

[Gavin Greenwalt]

We might as well confess You'll never see it because it was all one giant fake. Just like the RED. :) You can go take a long nap now until this red business blows over...

[Simon Dean]

Also, Jim said in another thread that they were having doubts about posting it because of the compression etc. that would be required - suggesting that more stills will definitely be posted...

Having said that, AFAIK there's no definitive decision yet. I should imagine they had a little rest at the end of last week and we'll hear more this week - bearing in mind that there on the West Coast and it's the middle of the night there currently.

[vidalsosa]

Starting a thread just to ask this question, when people of substance like David Mullen have seen the footage in question, is nothing more than another attempt to stir up folks here. We're all anxious right now and I don't see how this helps in any way. This question has been asked and framed in several different ways in nearly all of the threads on this forum.

BTW, I was accused of overeacting the first time, I'm sure Sunny's real intentions are becoming more obvious... with only three posts I must add.

[Johan Lindgren]

I did see some PJ stills at 4k on RED.com.5-6 MB each. Where did they go?

Johlan

[Priyesh P.]

Folks, is this camera for real ?

Just kidding...

[Álex Montoya]

"I did see some PJ stills at 4k on RED.com.5-6 MB each. Where did they go?

Johlan"


Where did you see that?

[Johan Lindgren]

In the still gallery of Red.com, now they are gone.
HIRES versions of the ones that were posted here of PJs short.

Johlan

[Álex Montoya]

Today?
Could you post them?

[casey warren]

The guys and gals at RED have been working very hard over the past couple days (and year for that matter) I think if we all sit back and wait for awhile we wont be disappointed. They'll take care of the community that supports them.

I think what will happen will be a updated red.com with lots of footage, new photos of the camera, etc.

Just think about it, not many companys have a whole forum devoted to them. Also, not many companies (if any) have their founders and developers directly talking to people online who support them, they have some big things in store. I am sure of it. It will come with time.

[Brainstorm]

Sunnyjim.... your real name wouldn't be SONYjim would it? :alien:

[Johan Lindgren]

Today?
Could you post them?

Since they arent mine, and they for some reason were removed, I think i´d better not. I was just wondering why there were no reaction here and then I saw they were removed from their site.

Johlan

[sunnyjim]

yeah... you got me... I'm an agent working for RED's competitors! I was hired by sony and jvc and canon to disrupt your fastidious discussions. You fellows need to get out a bit more methinks. I preordered a red myself, I would rather have a red over any camera, it's just I think we deserve to see some quality footage. I and probably you have taken a tremendous leap of faith. On paper this red business sounds incredible... It'd be nice to see some footage aside from this milkgirls crud of which there isn't much. I don't think I'm alone in this?

[casey warren]

I see at least 9+ stops of latitude in the Milk Girls footage....not so "cruddy" to me. :ninja:

I think RED is going to post some stuff that will blow people away, very soon, we just gotta wait. They are just beginning to show the world what the true revolution is all about.

[Brainstorm]

On paper this red business sounds incredible... It'd be nice to see some footage aside from this milkgirls crud of which there isn't much. I don't think I'm alone in this?

There's nothing wrong with asking intelligent and sometimes dissenting questions, or offering well-considered critique Sunnyjim. But why do you have to use words like "crud", or go out of your way to sound so pessimistic?

If other people choose to buy a camera which produces "crud" like the milkgirls clip at the price RED are offering it, is it your place to bring them down? If you don't like it, don't buy it. If others do, leave them be.

Please offer opinion wherever you want, but be more constructive and you'll cause a lot less aggro and offense.

Just a suggestion. :wacko:

[Corrado Silveri]

I don't think I'm alone in this?

No, you're not alone.
All the guys here at Reduser.net wish to watch (for the first time or one more time) the PJ short.
But we also have have confidence in Jim and in his decision.
So, relax, and enjoy the board...

[vidalsosa]

yeah... you got me... I'm an agent working for RED's competitors! I was hired by sony ...

That I believe. Every other thing reads like crap. Sorry, but methinks you need to quit. Wait and see, like everyone else here.

[Álex Montoya]

"yeah... you got me... I'm an agent working for RED's competitors!"

Maybe not, maybe only a film purist. Either way I don't believe that you are interested in anything more than trashing the RED.

[laguun]

"yeah... you got me... I'm an agent working for RED's competitors!"
Maybe not, maybe only a film purist. Either way I don't believe that you are interested in anything more than trashing the RED.

relax everyone, relax...
while sunnyjims tone might be a little bit negative & harsh, there is no reason to speculate or getting insulting.

red annouced that they will post samples of the Peter Jackson shots shortly after NAB. It hasn´t been a week since the end of NAB iirc. Take your time, we have been waiting for over one year, a few more days aren´t a problem.

the transformation of the market will take years.

[Álex Montoya]

I think I am just being objective.
Sunnyjim initiated the topic about the RED not being cinematic, which provoked thousands of views and a 120 replies and he did not bother to respond any of the well reasoned arguments people provided.

Next thing we know about him is yet another provocative topic.

To me, that's pure troll.

[vidalsosa]

relax everyone, relax...
while sunnyjims tone might be a little bit negative & harsh, there is no reason to speculate or getting insulting.

red annouced that they will post samples of the Peter Jackson shots shortly after NAB. It hasn´t been a week since the end of NAB iirc. Take your time, we have been waiting for over one year, a few more days aren´t a problem.

the transformation of the market will take years.

I don't see why you are quoting Concrete. He didn't start the thread, unless I'm missing something here:unsure:

[laguun]

I think I am just being objective.
Sunnyjim initiated the topic about the RED not being cinematic, which provoked thousands of views and a 120 replies and he did not bother to respond any of the well reasoned arguments people provided.

yeah, i agree, but be prepared to meet many people with such attitudes.

we have digital cinema production since 2002, on film since 1989, and often mix 35mm & hdcam footage. most people who are bigmouths about 35mm/hdcam can´t even tell the difference when the footage is properly matched and postproduced, however they are pretty vocal before, especially the unexperienced ones.

most people including cameramen who complain about non-existing things as "depth" "or less threedimensional" in the digital can meanwhile be removed from their positions by the producers, but often there is a strong director/dop relationship and this could be counterproductive.
so, better prepare yourself for lots of esoteric discussions.

rule of thumb #1: when someone starts complaining about saturation & colors, he has no clue, as he has no idea that he is talking about DI & grading, not camera.
rule of thumbs #2: as soon as non-artistic and non-technical criterias are used ("three dimensional look of an image etc"), you don´t have to talk about facts, as the person is probably biased.

remember:
today you still find many people who still claim that analogue records sounds better than, lets say, 96khz/24bit audio, even if its proven wrong technically and with blind tests with audiences.




Next thing we know about him is yet another provocative topic.
To me, that's pure troll.
yes, i agree, thats trollish behaviour. however, everyone has to get used to this behaviour. there will be thousands of reds in the field, bringing the shift to digital cinema to many people who don´t want that for the first time. there -will- be hurt feelings, there -will- be emotional responses, and its certainly more clever to respond with a smile than with an accusation.

also, remember, you are in the winning team - they are not. so a little bit of good old sportmansship (is that the right word?) is not misplaced.

[david farland]

I love it when these threads are closed!

Sure we all indulge in the odd heated debate.

But I love that this forum has so of them.

Cheers,

[TimothyD]

"today you still find many people who still claim that analogue records sounds better than, lets say, 96khz/24bit audio, even if its proven wrong technically and with blind tests with audiences. "

Laguun, while it is off-topic, I'd really like to know where you got this information.

[Álex Montoya]

lol: laguun, it seems you've found one of those

PS: I am not an audiophile (sp?) and acc not taking party in this one

[Stuart English]

Its a tough call guys.

Its one thing to see this 4K footage in a theatre with a 4K projector - you see every nuance, crisp (but not edge sharpened) and with detail that is just wow beyond belief.

Scale this to an internet distributable 8 bit codec and it just kills all of that image quality - quantization noise, macroblocking, motion smear, and only 2 channels of audio.

So we go back to stills. They are good at 1K JPEG, excellent at 4K, but don't tell the whole story as they strip out the music and action.

Bottom line is, if you want to make a judgement about buying this camera based on the footage, you just have to see the footage in the context that it was produced for.

[martinnoweck]

Hi laguun,

"remember:
today you still find many people who still claim that analogue records sounds better than, lets say, 96khz/24bit audio, even if its proven wrong technically and with blind tests with audiences. "

-> isn't that in a way the same discussion with 35mm VS. Digital 4k ... ;-)

Martin

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

Its a tough call guys.

Its one thing to see this 4K footage in a theatre with a 4K projector - you see every nuance, crisp (but not edge sharpened) and with detail that is just wow beyond belief.

Scale this to an internet distributable 8 bit codec and it just kills all of that image quality - quantization noise, macroblocking, motion smear, and only 2 channels of audio.

So we go back to stills. They are good at 1K JPEG, excellent at 4K, but don't tell the whole story as they strip out the music and action.

Bottom line is, if you want to make a judgement about buying this camera based on the footage, you just have to see the footage in the context that it was produced for.

With all respect to the RED team and whatever your guys' decision is, I do really hope to see a HD version of it on the web. I don't have the money for a RED, but I do really support the project, and I told many people about the PJ short shot on a RED, and they all want to see footage.
I friend of mine said the stills didn't look THAT great, but some people here said "The movie looked great, the stills don't".
I don't know, because I wasn't at NAB, but it does give me more curiousity to see the movie - btw: I do think the stills looked great.

I actually want to see images with movement, music and action.
And I know that what I would see would be a very compressed version of the real thing, but HD isn't youtube either.
So, I know my post probably isn't going to change a thing about the decision of you guys - and it shouldn't either, RED has already done more than most other companies in terms of gesture, and open source - but I would *really* like to see the footage to show to other people.
Also people who don't have the money to buy a RED, so it's not that their decision will depend on it, but just to let them see how cinematic it can look.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

Hey Stuart,

i am sure that you people have done an amazing job on the production of the PJ short. Audio and Music are half the enjoyment when experiencing the movie but i believe that many of us RED believers wouldn't mind watching it even in Stereo.

We have all seeing Quicktime movie trailers in 1080p and even if we don't see all the film's resolution (or digital cinema camera's) we get a pretty good idea about the source's quality.

Many people were lucky enough to attend NAB but for others such as me it was almost impossible due to work/money/distance/whatever.

You have every right not to make the short available and we have to respect that but you also have to respect that this decision leaves a bitter taste to many of us. The PJ short is maybe the most amazing thing that has happened for/with our camera until now and we the believers might never get the chance to see it.

Well, maybe a couple of years later on you tube...

Love! :calm:

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

-> isn't that in a way the same discussion with 35mm VS. Digital 4k ... ;-)

Martin


Absolutly! While the market has long deceided, the discussion will go on and on.

I haven´t made a analog recording in over 8 years, haven´t even seen a non-dust-covered 24 track in a recording studio, but still people talk about the "good old days" of those.
One bloke told me how you really had to think about editing 24 track tape before you cut it and how exiting it was. I thought the exitement came from not having a backup.

Now I really like tube technology in audio, but not because of its fidelity, but because of it´s harmonic distortion. There´s your analogy to film.

......

Oh, what was the topic of this thread again?

Jochen

[Christian Berg]

So, Stuart are you going to demo the film in Sweden any time soon? I was not able to come to NAB, far off and too expensive just for fun. I would really like to see some footage. Even at 1080p it is possible to judge the quality for regular production.

Please post some 1080p videofiles from Peter Jacksons film.
Thanks!

[Obin Olson]

I am waiting on #610 and I want to see a CineForm or uncompressed 1080p file asap and I thought that is what we would get after nab....guys anyone on PC can download the free cineform reader..maybe give that a shot...it's wavelet based encoding is good...

I think they have apple mac codec now too

even a good h264 is ok by me...I know what that format does to master files.

we need moving footage! all I have see is the milkgirls...don't forget us all that did not go NAb

[donatello b]

perhaps PJ doesn't want the short posted at 1080p or any good resolution ?
if i did a short i wouldn't want it posted at any good resolution nor any web resolution till i decided what i was going to do with it or looked at other release options .. perhaps it will be entered in film festivals or it could play before a feature at local cinema's ?
4k down to 512k stream doesn't show anything about the quality of RED only shows you the short story ...
i think 90% of those here want to see it because of the RED camera and not for the story ...

[indianaG5]

I agree donatello about the 90%...

Great expectation about these seconds at 1080!

[Miltos Pilalitos]

4k down to 512k stream doesn't show anything about the quality of RED only shows you the short story ...

Don't you think you are a bit extreme in trying to make a point? i believe we can all aggree that there are much better options than 512k stream.

[sander kamp]

Please please please, put a 1080p version on the web!! I've put down $1000,- a long time ago because I believed in RED and I am nowhere near a place that will show the 4k version.

I don't believe that RED footage will ONLY look good at 4k. Of course it will look better when viewed properly but I am sure it will still look good on a computer screen. If not then why did RED put the milk girls online in the first place?

[Vincent Rice]

Psychologically I think its important that RED post a 1080p version of a section of the film. We know all the quality compromises that it would entail but for many people it would help make the project 'real'. Whatever we see or read about NAB, nobody yet has a camera in their hands. Nobody rationally doubts the projects but subconsciously the customer need constant re-assurance. Trailers on the Apple site are encoded from high quality masters and provide a useful benchmark.

[ericyoung]

Its a tough call guys.

Its one thing to see this 4K footage in a theatre with a 4K projector - you see every nuance, crisp (but not edge sharpened) and with detail that is just wow beyond belief.

Scale this to an internet distributable 8 bit codec and it just kills all of that image quality - quantization noise, macroblocking, motion smear, and only 2 channels of audio...

I understand your dilemma Stuart, and of course the trolls will come out in force to criticise web footage. But dying to see the PJ short!

How about putting a "tickertape" rolling disclaimer along the bottom with exactly the points you've made to not judge this as representative of the unadulterated 4K footage? I say a rolling disclaimer, rather than just a caption, so it is made abundantly clear. Maybe also a semi-transparent caption in picture to stop malicious people cropping out the rolling disclaimer.

Just a suggestion...:biggrin:

[laguun]

Its a tough call guys.
Its one thing to see this 4K footage in a theatre with a 4K projector - you see every nuance, crisp (but not edge sharpened) and with detail that is just wow beyond belief.


Hello Stuart,

as mentioned in this thread
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1856
we would gladly help out in providing cinema & projector if that helps you in the EU.

It would be great if we could get a PM if red is interested, no matter if you decide against it later on for whatever reason - as i have to propose the screening to the board and maybe even do some convincing...

...we could also provide manpower, gear etc if that would be of any help.

[Brian Kaz]

If you guys are that uncertain, how about posting just some quick sample shots, say 30seconds - one minute total in high bitrate 1080p. I personally don't need sound. Red didn't do the sound mix or music. I'll take that over no vid at all. I need moving images!

Regards,
Kaz

[Chris Kenny]

Bottom line is, if you want to make a judgement about buying this camera based on the footage, you just have to see the footage in the context that it was produced for.

Realistically, though, the vast majority of content shot on Red cameras is going to be viewed at 1080p or below for the foreseeable future. Most material won't get theatrical release, which means it'll be seen as DCT-compressed 4:2:2 8-bit 1080p at most, on high-def disc formats. Even most theatrical exhibition will be 2K (barely more pixels than 1080p) or film prints (usually less resolution than 1080p).

So, it's not like a 1080p version would be unrepresentative of real-world usage, even if it doesn't show off all the camera has to offer.

And most of the benefits of the camera (shallow DoF, dynamic range, etc.) should still come through at 1080p. Even resolution, to some extent; 4K scaled to 1080p is going to hold more detail than footage shot at 1080p.

[Milan Nikolic]

Chris, I second that!

[Nik Manning]

Its a tough call guys.

Its one thing to see this 4K footage in a theatre with a 4K projector - you see every nuance, crisp (but not edge sharpened) and with detail that is just wow beyond belief.

Scale this to an internet distributable 8 bit codec and it just kills all of that image quality - quantization noise, macroblocking, motion smear, and only 2 channels of audio.

So we go back to stills. They are good at 1K JPEG, excellent at 4K, but don't tell the whole story as they strip out the music and action.

Bottom line is, if you want to make a judgement about buying this camera based on the footage, you just have to see the footage in the context that it was produced for.

With that being said I have seen many trailers online at apple.com in HD and they looked pretty damn good. We would be comparing them to
highly encoded HD trailers not film. I think the folks here just want that extra bit of reassurance. Peter Jackson shot a movie with the Red camera so you knew folks would be going crazy for the footage. Honestly I think the stills tell us less than a 720p version would. If you encoded it to HD DVD quality and released that version it would be a accurate representation of what quality most people might see in their homes and the file size wouldn't be huge. By my calculations a 15 minute HD DVD movie should be under 1.9 GB of space.

I would happily except a 480p version for free and pay for HD versions of the Short. Maybe you could get apple to license it on there appleTV setup.

[Kevin Halverson]

I am curious as to what contract this short film was shot under. I am assuming that it was under one of the guild contracts (and a signatory producer was involved) so distribution in any form (other than non public screenings) would certainly cause an acceleration clause to kick in. I suspect that this might be the reason for it not being released.

[Karl H]

I have to agree. I think a lot of us are going to be spending all of our savings on this cam :-) (well I am), and so far we've only go the Milk Girls footage to go on.

If you can manage a 4K screening in London in the next month or two then I take it all back. But if not I'm another that would like to see the 1080p short before my reservation number comes up...

And it's true, for the next few years in the UK, 1080p or even lower is where it's at. I dont see a 4K delivery format avaiable for some time.

[Nik Manning]

Its a tough call guys.

Its one thing to see this 4K footage in a theatre with a 4K projector - you see every nuance, crisp (but not edge sharpened) and with detail that is just wow beyond belief.

Scale this to an internet distributable 8 bit codec and it just kills all of that image quality - quantization noise, macroblocking, motion smear, and only 2 channels of audio.

So we go back to stills. They are good at 1K JPEG, excellent at 4K, but don't tell the whole story as they strip out the music and action.

Bottom line is, if you want to make a judgement about buying this camera based on the footage, you just have to see the footage in the context that it was produced for.

With that being said I have seen many trailers online at apple.com in HD and they looked pretty damn good. We would be comparing them to
highly encoded HD trailers not film. I think the folks here just want that extra bit of reassurance. Peter Jackson shot a movie with the Red camera so you knew folks would be going crazy for the footage. Honestly I think the stills tell us less than a 720p version would. If you encoded it to HD DVD quality and released that version it would be a accurate representation of what quality most people might see in their homes and the file size wouldn't be huge. By my calculations a 15 minute HD DVD movie should be under 1.9 GB of space.

I would happily except a 480p version for free and pay for HD versions of the Short. Maybe you could get apple to license it on there appleTV setup.

[shaftbond]

If you guys are that uncertain, how about posting just some quick sample shots, say 30seconds - one minute total in high bitrate 1080p.

I agree with Kaz. In one of the still frame threads, there was a discussion on posting just a section of the film. You could possible even release a 4K torrent. That would show motion, but without showing the entire short, there shouldn't be problems with guild rules.

I can see both points of view. On the one hand, everything RED puts out is scrutinized to no end by supporters and haters alike. To release anything that is less than the best will start a firestorm of criticism that they are not looking forward to dealing with. On the other hand, not releasing the footage makes it look like they have something to hide, which they don't. I was at NAB, I saw the footage, it truly is beautiful stuff. That being said, I would love to watch it again, whether it be 4K, 2K, 1080p, the full short or just a clip.

[Brian Kaz]

I can see both points of view. On the one hand, everything RED puts out is scrutinized to no end by supporters and haters alike. To release anything that is less than the best will start a firestorm of criticism that they are not looking forward to dealing with. On the other hand, not releasing the footage makes it look like they have something to hide, which they don't. I was at NAB, I saw the footage, it truly is beautiful stuff. That being said, I would love to watch it again, whether it be 4K, 2K, 1080p, the full short or just a clip.

To add to this, by the end of the year, you will have people of varying skills releasing their own footage all over the net. Better to have the "Best of the Best" footage out there first!

[Mardi_Gras]

... by the end of the year, you will have people of varying skills releasing their own footage all over the net. Better to have the "Best of the Best" footage out there first!

A very valid argument for releasing now, IMHO.

[jbeale]

Look at the difference between the rendering of the stills in different web browsers as posted in this thread a few pages back, I can see why they would be reluctant to release the PJ short and endure the criticism from people viewing it with displays calibrated differently, or most likely not calibrated at all.

I assume those who have ordered a RED, did so based on whatever they know now, and not on a short they have not seen. At any rate it sounds like we'll get to see more testing results when Gibby gets Red #8 so I'm looking forward to that.

[Brook Willard]

This is going nowhere, guys. Stuart made the necessary point for the thread. The complaining, trolling accusations and similar commentary won't get us any closer to having the film online. More likely, it'll delay [or eliminate altogether] any chance we have.

I see no reason for this to continue. They'll release it if/when they're ready.