Elite Optica Super 35 MKIII lenses

[Joe Walker]

Would Elite Optica Super 35 MKIII lenses work well with this camera? I like their price point and quality. I have used a set of them before on a 35mm shoot. They had very good quality on film, but would they suffice for this camera or should I be looking at Cooke, Zeiss, Nikon, and (god forbid) Panavision?

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated. Here is the Elite Optica website:
http://www.optica-elite.com/Price-List-2007.html

-Joe Walker

[Sanjin Jukic]

Definitely would work fine. But they are stiil unknown BRAND worldwide.

[Greg M]

They will work just fine.

The other point to consider when investing in lenses is what will the resale value be 3-5 years from now. You cant go wrong with Arri/Zeiss or even Cooke in this regard, history has proven that they hold their value very well if maintained. I don't know how strong the resale value would be on Elites in the U.S. Looking at the prices, they are not far off from Ultra Prime pricing...you can typically find very nice used or even new Ultra Primes in the $8-9k each range.

Otherwise they are fine lenses.

[Wade McDonald]

I contacted abelcine a while back to ask about the prices of those Elites (they were the only disributor I could find) -- and they were about 20% cheaper than the Cookes that I was planning to go for. Having only shot with Zeiss, Cooke and Primos in the past, I was wondering if those of you who've used them in the past could tell me what you think. I'm not sold just yet, since I do some SFX cinematography on occasion and I like the idea of the /i box helping me log shot info quickly... I just don't know if it's worth it. Where do the Elites stand?

(Just to clarify, i'm talking comparison from an optics standpoint only, ignoring the various bells and whistles)

[Joe Walker]

They will work just fine.

The other point to consider when investing in lenses is what will the resale value be 3-5 years from now. You cant go wrong with Arri/Zeiss or even Cooke in this regard, history has proven that they hold their value very well if maintained. I don't know how strong the resale value would be on Elites in the U.S. Looking at the prices, they are not far off from Ultra Prime pricing...you can typically find very nice used or even new Ultra Primes in the $8-9k each range.

Otherwise they are fine lenses.

Excellent. Thank you. I'm not so concerned about the re-sale (although I probably should be)....what I like is that, for the price, I can buy more lenses and really "flesh out" a good set well rounded set. In the meantime, thanks for the advice.

[Damien Molineaux]

Would Elite Optica Super 35 MKIII lenses work well with this camera? I like their price point and quality. I have used a set of them before on a 35mm shoot. They had very good quality on film, but would they suffice for this camera or should I be looking at Cooke, Zeiss, Nikon, and (god forbid) Panavision?

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated. Here is the Elite Optica website:
http://www.optica-elite.com/Price-List-2007.html

-Joe Walker

I don't think you could use Panavision lenses unless someone makes a special mount, which Panavision might do some day, Panavise a Red One, who knows?

Cheers,
Damien

[Scott Webster]

Excellent. Thank you. I'm not so concerned about the re-sale (although I probably should be)....what I like is that, for the price, I can buy more lenses and really "flesh out" a good set well rounded set. In the meantime, thanks for the advice.

Joe,

It's not just the re-sale you need to think about. If you have plans to make your camera available to other crew or even in your own promotional material, the Cooke and Zeiss name will win you work. If the price difference is 20% I would get the best Cooke set you could with the same budget that you had for the Elites. Drop a lens from the Cooke set that you would use the least and see if it can be hired in if you need to add it to the set.

Name brand glass will win you work and will give you a significant advantage over your competitors.

[Joe Walker]

Ahhhhhhh.....gotcha.

[Ólafur Rögnvaldsson]

Joe,
Can you please tell us more about the qualiti of the Elites? How do they compare to Zeiss and Cookes - the character of the glass- is it more similar to one or the other, housing e.t.c. ? Not many seem to have experience with them so it would be nice to hear your opinion. And have you tried theyr 25-80 zoom?
Thanks, Olafur

[Matt Uhry]

Hi Olafur,

I own a OPF-29-1 which is the orig. version of the 25-80 that Elite rehouses and market as theirs, The lens is tiny 8 inches long and about a 1.5 pounds. ,. It's quite sharp, has decent contrast however there is a bit of distortion, barrel at the wide and pincushion at the long. It breathes quite alot. Minimum focus is 3.5 ft. I use it for steadicam shots and handheld for exteriors. Front element spins when you focus - kind of a pain. I think on some of the rehoused versions this may be solved. The lens is a F3 and T3.4 -

Matt Uhry
www.fuzby.com

[Joe Walker]

Joe,
Can you please tell us more about the qualiti of the Elites? How do they compare to Zeiss and Cookes - the character of the glass- is it more similar to one or the other, housing e.t.c. ? Not many seem to have experience with them so it would be nice to hear your opinion. And have you tried theyr 25-80 zoom?
Thanks, Olafur

Olafur,

The one time I used them they easily compared (in terms of final photographed product) to Zeiss MK III Superspeed Primes. I never used the 25-80 zoom, although, Matt's assessment seems to be the universal one that I hear from all those who have used the zoom. They were exceptionally sharp, although at T1.9, the 14mm seemed to go just a t-a-d soft. Not exceptionally so, but enough for me to see it. Now that I think about it, it was only on that one shot too. Interior, practical lighting, three lamps in a room, each with bulbs at 200W, shooting on Fuji 125T. I'm still inclined to use them again. I haven't shot 35mm since that shoot, but I walked away with a very positive attitude towards Elite lenses. I've heard alot of good buzz about their anamorphic lenses. But in response to your original question, the Elite MKIII's have a color scheme of Cooke S-4's, the weight and feel of Zeiss lenses, and the picture that the set I used produced was easily comparable to Zeiss Superspeed Primes. It's sort of what has got me thinking about trying them out on the Red camera, they're a little bit cheaper than Cookes, Zeiss, etc. But the quality is still very comparable, IMHO.

[Stephen Williams]

I don't think you could use Panavision lenses unless someone makes a special mount, which Panavision might do some day, Panavise a Red One, who knows?

Cheers,
Damien

Hi Damien,

For sure Panavision will 'Panavise' a Red. Anyone who want's a Panavision mount made by a machine shop should expect to pay about $1000 for a one off.

Stephen

[Ólafur Rögnvaldsson]

Thank you for the info Matt and Joe.

Elite is also coming out with a new line of Digital 35 primes - same features as the 35 primes. I have learned from the Russians that these will have the same glass but smaller housing. Front is now 110mm but will be 85mm and the weight will be ca. 30% less. Price is 10% lower.
The strange thing is that there is a huge price difference between the US and the Russian price lists. If you pick the Russian one the price of a new Elite is ca. 1/3 of a new Cooke!
They are also making the zoom a little better with 24-80mm T3.0
Olafur

[Joe Carney]

Thank you for the info Matt and Joe.

Elite is also coming out with a new line of Digital 35 primes - same features as the 35 primes. I have learned from the Russians that these will have the same glass but smaller housing. Front is now 110mm but will be 85mm and the weight will be ca. 30% less. Price is 10% lower.
The strange thing is that there is a huge price difference between the US and the Russian price lists. If you pick the Russian one the price of a new Elite is ca. 1/3 of a new Cooke!
They are also making the zoom a little better with 24-80mm T3.0
Olafur

when you say digital primes, does that mean they are for the 3 chip cams? And you're right, if you can find a reliable euro reseller you can save some money.

[Ólafur Rögnvaldsson]

They call them Digital 35 lenses. They cover super 35 just like the MKIII's They are identical except for the size of the housing and made for digital cameras with 35 mm sized sensors.
Then they also have a series of HD Prime 2/3 lenses.

[James T Mather]

So the digital 35s are the ones to for when using the Red? Is there any downside you are aware of? Thanks, J,

[Matt Uhry]

I wonder if we comissioned 100 sets could the price be cut in half ?

Matt Uhry
www.fuzby.com

[Ólafur Rögnvaldsson]

CORRECTION:

I stated before on this thread that the new Elite 35mm digital primes will have the same glass as the MKIII lenses but smaller housing.
This is not correct. The digital primes are all new, designed from scratch - new glass, new housing. Smaller, lighter.

I apologize for this misunderstanding on my behalf - but when an Icelander and a Russian communicate in English - shit happens. I double checked and the answer was:
"as about new designe- it's full new, lenses and mechanics and housing"


So the digital 35s are the ones to for when using the Red? Is there any downside you are aware of? Thanks, J,

IMHO the downside is not knowing if magic man Jannard will come up with something even better/less expensive than the Russians. Or if we will see a beautiful co-operation between RED and the Russians :) Any pictures of the RED Jannard jet at the St. Petersburg airport?

I haven' t seen ot tried the Elites, just gathered info and this seems to be a very good option for cine lenses for the price and quality - and the only option that is somewhere close to what RED seems to be aiming at.
We will test the digital primes as soon as we can.


"I wonder if we comissioned 100 sets could the price be cut in half ?"


Matt - are you ready with 100 buyers if I ask my Russian friend this :)

Olafur

[AIO Films]

If the Elite Digital 35 lenses remain T1.3 (for most common focal lengths) and are smaller in size with new optical design at half the advertised prices (average US$5,000 a piece), I'll buy two sets.

[Joe Carney]

Maybe some one could get a great price break by helping them build a decent web site. :)

[Joe Walker]

Amen!

[Holosynthetic]

Being unfamiliar with the brand Optica-Elite, are there any comparisons of these lenses with the Master Primes? or does anyone know what the differences are between them?

I hate to assume, but are the Zeiss lenses more expensive because of brand popularity, or are they actually leaps and bounds better?

[jeremie]

any infos about a release date of those new digital lenses ?

edit : in the price list section of their site the 35 digital lense are announced at the prices (each) of 4100 Euros for the 18 24 35 50 and 4300 Euros for the 75 and 100. All T 1.3
25 000 euros a Set... i might get one of these.

[Matt Uhry]

Being unfamiliar with the brand Optica-Elite, are there any comparisons of these lenses with the Master Primes? or does anyone know what the differences are between them?


With all this talk about the Optica-Elite Mk3's I became curious enough to round up my favorite AC and go and check them out at Slo-Motion near the Burbank Airport. Anatoliy was kind enough to project the 18,24,35,50,75,100 for me on his lens projector, then we looked at the lenses on an Arri 435 in his shop to test for flare,bokeh, breathing and subjective performance.

The Optica-Elites are very nice lenses especially for the price. They exhibit very high resolution and contrast and low distortion. The design and construction is very nice, LARGE barrels much like the Cooke s4's. As far as we could determine with a maglight they are very flare resistant. The only critiques I had was that there was tiny amount of "moustache" distortion in the 18mm. Really the kind of thing that would only bother a professional brick wall photographer... The other is some of the markings were a little lacking, my AC noted that the 24mm was marked for 10ft and then infinity - seems like it would be good to have had a few extra engraved marks there, it all counts at T1.3 ! I did not see this on other lenses, but I wasn't looking for it either. Close focus was decent and Anatoliy claimed that the lenses perform at close distances very well. ( cooke s4's are a bit weak here ) Breathing was similar to the S4's. Minimal.

On the lens projector most of the lenses exhibited a little bit of coma wide open which was always gone by the time you closed down to T2. All the lenses showed 140-200 lp/mm at the edges which is great.

Probably the biggest problem with these lenses is they are not well known and might be harder to rent out than S4's or Ultraprimes. Also access to service and parts networks are unproven. The best thing about them? an extra stop for less cash.

The Master Primes that I've looked at under similar conditions in my opinion preform *slightly* better at t1.3, the differences get very small once you stop down a little. I think the Master Primes have some floating elements and a mechanism in them that totally negates breathing.

Why not shoot a bit with each of them and decide what your tastes are and how much you are willing to pay for high performance?

Matt Uhry
www.fuzby.com

[Martin Drew]

Thanks for taking the time to do that and reporting back Matt

[Holosynthetic]

The lenses listed on the Optical-Elite site, are they the same ones being sold on abelcine.com? where else would I be able to pick up a set of these?

Matt thanks for the tests, your feedback was great, and to answer your question, I am willing to pay a lot for high performance (which is why I went for the RED over the hvx200).

[Matt Uhry]

I am willing to pay a lot for high performance (which is why I went for the RED over the hvx200).

Master Primes ( each one ) list for an average of 14,200 euro's. a basic working set of 6 lenses would be around $105,000.

Matt Uhry
www.fuzby.com

[Holosynthetic]

the real question is how do you even find a set to purchase?

and does that price equate to a used set or brand spankin new?

[Finner]

Theyre new good luck finding a used set

[Holosynthetic]

I recently e-mailed the company through their newly updated website.

http://optica-elite.com/

I asked them simple questions like:

Do you ship to the lenses straight from the factory to the USA?
How much does shipping cost?

I received an e-mail this morning from them with some answers, I'll just paste the whole e-mail here.


Dear Mr Parron,
We are glad you are interested in our lenses. Yes, the price for our lenses is from 4200-4500 Euro's. Moreover if you buy more than 6 lenses we give a discount of 20%.
We deliver our lenses all over the world. We deliver the goods after the conclusion of the contract. We ship the goods through our expense.
Unfortunately we didn't make any comparative tests with Zeiss Master Primes. I think there are not principal differences between them.
We made comparative tests with Cooke S4. As a result some of our lenses are better (optically) than Cooke's but some lenses Cooke are better than our lenses.

Best regards,
Romashkin Grigory.
Executive director.
Optica-Elite

So for those of you looking to save some money on lenses, this is some great news.

[donatello b]

here's some words on another russian lens for S16 -optar illumina compared to zeiss - set of 6 US $14,500 to 16,500 ...

http://cinematechnic.com/products/optar_illumina_lenses.html

also i see that indie rental ( future RED rental house) has a set of 35mm optars

http://www.indierentals.com/cameras.html ..
then ckick on lenses -perhaps they can shed some light on them compared to the other zeiss lenses they rent ??

[Joe Walker]

Definitely good news. I think I'll rent a set from Slow Motion Inc and do some tests.......once I can find a Red camera to rent.

[James T Mather]

QUESTION: Was testing an optica elite lens today (mk3) - seems very nice but a big old beast - are the S35 "Digital" lenses only covering 18x24mm - as indicated on their site:

http://optica-elite.com/products/digital/

Or do they cover full aperture s35?

Thx

[Michael Lindsay]

I asked this through a translator 12months ago and they should cover...

I have friend who has bought a lot Elite glass and really likes them.. The one chore is that it is worth having them reassembled with a few tweaks, modifications and a bit of love. I'll see if he wishes to comment on the particulars.

Did you find them pleasing... ? We've considered getting a very small set and having the coatings striped..

Michael L

[James T Mather]

Yes they are pretty slick lenses - the zeiss's initially seemed sharper until we realised that even at f2.1 they were transmitting the equivalent of t2.8 on the Elite (as in - the Elite was a clear 2 stops faster as a lens)- an aspect of the portholing at the wider end of the zeiss lenses - the softness was an aspect of the Elite lenses being wide open (1.3). The Zeiss lenses perform better at t2.1 until one realises that the transmission is equivalent to an Elite being at 2.8 - even at T2 the Elites perform much better - That said the wide open aspect is hardly a problem - some loss of contrast, a little coma, some loss of resolution but as part of a "look" would be perfectly workable (esp. with an actress of maturing years - a nice low con very mildly diffused look - she'll ask you to shoot her next picture :)

The Elites toughen up somewhat at 1.4/2 split and tougher again at t2 - big suckers though. Ergo my interest in the Digital S35 lenses. One other thing - they are a clear 4-5mm longer than the equivalent zeiss standard eg: a 20mm elite fov is equivalent to a zeiss 24mm - so buy wider if you lean on wide lenses more).

I would love to get more inf on the tweaks during the reassembly your friend undertook Michael - any info would be very appreciated. Thanks.

Thx

[Matthew Rogers]

The question is, is the web site price correct and how long do they take to get? The price on their website in Euros comes out to just over $7k each. Personally, if I am going to spend $45k on a set of lenses, I would probably spend the $15-20k more an get Ultra primes. Yes, one stop slower, but the name and optical quality is worth it. Now, if these lenses were under $30 for a set of 6, that might be worth looking at.

Matthew

[James T Mather]

They offer a 20% discount for orders of 6 or more lenses. Grigory is pretty fast at email response and can tell you how long lenses will take to get. A full set that I am looking at will be ready by end march 09 I am told. My only debate is whether to hold on for NAB.

As regards the Arri UPs. Yes - nice glass but I am in two minds. At t2 the elites seem nice and having the 1.3 option as a get-out-of-jail card on a rough night exterior (when the director suddenly demands 120fps right before we roll ) might just be what tips me over to Optica Elite. (plus a 20% discount can't hurt either (bringing the euro cost per lens to just over 5000). From my dealings with them (Arri Uk) they don't seem to do discounts.

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Or do they cover full aperture s35?

Thx


I asked this through a translator 12months ago and they should cover...

The only difference between them and the Primes is that they're more or less half the size. They're still S35 lenses.

I have no clue why they decided to call them Digital Primes? But as for size they're close to the Zeiss standard and super speed.

Edit: When these were lens projected there was no indication of them covering 18x24mm only, but I will double check this

[James T Mather]

Thanks Frederik, I would love to get that info on the digital 35 coverage. Many thanks. James.

Ps. What type did you buy - digital or mk3?

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Thanks Frederik, I would love to get that info on the digital 35 coverage. Many thanks. James.

Ps. What type did you buy - digital or mk3?

I've actually bought all lenses that they offer including their zooms.

I'm very happy with them although I have had my lens technicians overhaul them quite a lot to make them up to my standard.

I'm using those Elite sets and my Master Primes as my lenses, but I have to say that I do prefer the characteristics of the Elites. I like when it's a little F**** up, in a good way of course.

[James T Mather]

Well I agree - otherwise why shoot anamorphic etc but for the imperfections that make the image interesting.

My interest in beginning to skew towards the smaller lenses if I can just get a take on whether they will definitively cover proper s35 (so when I upgrade my camera in a year I don't end up with useless glass). I emailed Grigory yesterday with some questions so look toward to getting some clarification hopefully tomorrow.

[Michael Lindsay]

Hi James

Your comments on the actual light transmission of the elites has been niggling me... Basically you are saying they are nearly a stop faster at any given stop than standard speeds?? (sorry if I'm getting this wrong)

How can this be? Did you have any other lenses at hand?

I feel a test coming on!:construction:

confused

Michael

[James T Mather]

Yes - It seemed to indicate that the standards transmission stop on the 20mm was equivalent to the Elite at 1/3 open on T2.8 approx. In other words, I guess, the portholing on a digital sensor robs you of light not just at the edges but mildly at the centre too. This might only affect distagons and not planars but a test would need to confirm this.

To qualify:

Zeiss at t2.1 = Elite T2.8 (Maybe a third open, by a purely visual match up)

certainly at equivalent stops the elite seems observably brighter (I can test this properly at some stage)

I have noticed this occurring on a few shoots where (for example) the gaffer lights (by meter) the green screen to T4 1/3 - we end up close to wide open on the Zeiss lenses ( 2.8 1/3 ). I put it down to variances in the known actual Asa of the Red itself - but now this has me thinking. In short the long throat at the back perhaps is inhibiting transmission to the digital sensor somewhere in the region of almost a stop). The Elites on the other hand had, I estimate, a 1 stop transmission advantage - two stops thanks to the T1.3 - but exhibited loss of contrast, some resolution and coma at wide open.

This is, of course, guesswork on my part at this moment (based on a couple of hours examining the lenses for other qualities) - a more thorough test might be possible tomorrow (I am prerigging but will ask my AC to oblige whilst prepping the camera). For the record the Zeiss standards are exceptionally sharp lenses - even wide open there is hardly any change in lens resolution or coma.

[Michael Lindsay]

very interesting...

I will be comparing elites against UP and MP (maybe s4s) in a couple of weeks. I will remember to test for this as well. It wouldn't even have been a question in my mind if you hadn't have mentioned it..

thanks

Michael L

[James T Mather]

Now this is against standards - I doubt this would exist with MP/UP/S4 -

Would love to hear your thoughts after your test

Best

James

[Mitch Gross]

From my dealings with them (Arri Uk) they don't seem to do discounts.

James, you know who to call to try to work out a deal on Arri lenses.

[Michael Hastings]

In other words, I guess, the portholing on a digital sensor robs you of light not just at the edges but mildly at the centre too. This might only affect distagons and not planars but a test would need to confirm this.





I have no clue why they decided to call them Digital Primes? But as for size they're close to the Zeiss standard and super speed.


Maybe the above is why they call them "digital" primes. Modern DSLR lenses are specifically designed both with optics and coatings to maximize the light to a the pixel sensors on the chip which are less sensitive to off axis light than film would be. This is one reason I think a lot of people are going to be pleasantly surprised at how well the more recent SLR lenses perform on RED as more EOS smart mounts come on line. (not to mention that many are full frame 35 so will work with future full frame sensors)

[James T Mather]

James, you know who to call...

Ghostbusters? :shifty:

Mitch PM'ing you shortly. Thx.

[MMM]

hello,

in one week i will have new Elites S35 here.
I am buying it from Elite.
It will be: 18,24,35,50,75,100
In near future i will have more here /we are thinking about 135,200,12/
location: Bratislava, Slovakia, Rental possible.
If somebody is interested and has question, i can try to answear and help than.
peter@filmpark.sk

[Rob Gardner]

Hey how much did you pay for them?

[MMM]

http://www.optica-elite.com/
they have price list on the page...