Monitoring Red for Edit.

[Chris Swartz]

Ok so correct me if I'm wrong here, but once Redcode RAW has been dropped into a FCP timeline there is no way to monitor it to an HD display?

The only way I've heard is to transcode to ProRes, or some other codec and preview it 2k out from an AJA or Decklink card. Is this correct?

So a practical workflow for a 4k finish would be.

1. Shoot 4k
2. Transcode to 2k w/ProRes? (So we can see it on an appropriate display)
3. Edit in FCP
4. Kickout EDL
5. Somehow matchback to orginal footage.
6. Color Correct in highend app
7. Output to Digital Cinema Server or filmout.

2k is just gravy, transcode to 2k and stay there!


Some questions.

How are we to accurately work with footage we can't even view on a display?

What programs can we use to matchback from our 2k offline to our 4k online?

Scratch is supposed to handle the Redcode RAW natively, but how much is Scratch, and isn't it a windows only solution? (I don't know much about Scratch so I could be completely wrong here, I'm assuming it's ridiculously expensive since they didn't even have a booth at NAB, only an appointment only demo. That says $$$ to me.)


What does your workflow look like?

Chris

[Graeme Nattress]

I thought we had 1k REDCODE playback over the Kona working in the office?

And the other answer is: why do you think we're working on 4k displays and Projector?

Graeme

[roryhinds]

Hi Graeme

Will the RED 4k monitors be Colour Grading quality monitors for colour critical monitoring like a Cine-tel or eCinema?

Or just a reference monitor like a Panasonic, Sony or JVC?

Regards
Rory

[Graeme Nattress]

No idea yet....

Graeme

[Chris Swartz]

I know you guys are working on 4k displays and projectors and that's really exciting and all, but I'm sure there will be some lead time till those things become a reality, especially when the camera is just making it's way to reservation holders.

1k to the kona is good, but 2k would cinch it for me, until you bring out those 4k display options.

Any info on an offline matchback process? How that might work?

Chris

[sander kamp]

Hi Graeme,

When working with REDCODE in FCP can you zoom in to 1:1 pixels? I guess that won't play but can you at least check focus that way?

Sander

[Stuart English]

What is your definition of an HD display ?

Where did you hear that you can't see the footage on a monitor when editing REDCODE RAW ?

[AJSchmidt]

Just a clarification for a post earlier. 1080P (1920x1080) is not 2K. 2k is 2048 x 1536. 4k is 4096x2160. Apple's ProRes is 1080i 60 or 1080P 24. Coming from the Pro HD world, the worst thing is the compression used to transmit beautiful HD, in good scenarios (HDDVD/BluThing) it's 4.5MB/s; that's 50:1. And cable/sat knocks that down to 2.75MB/s at best (over the air PBS). Most digital Cine projection systems use some sort of JPEG2000 compression that dose work, but at only 8bit color. Heck Tremors 2 did all there SFX in SD DBeta, and no one in the audience was the wiser.

Adam
http://adam.pnn.com

[Jonathan Smiles]

>How are we to accurately work with footage we can't even view on a display?

It's the same as working with 4K film, you zoom in to 1:1 pixel size or greater to see fine detail and you have a calibrated display in combination with 3D LUTs for colour accuracy.

If you budget runs to having a 4K projector for viewing rushes/dailies you watch your footage on it otherwise take your footage to a screening room or grading theatre with 4K projection and watch it there.

Currently it is more practical to hire a room with 2K projection as the majority of DI and Digital Cinema infrastructure is geared to 2K.

Screen size is also important as small screens are very flattering and hide problems, this is mainly an issue for normal full screen playback as for effects and normal editing you can zoom in.

>What does your workflow look like?

My workflow looks alot like a Super 2K film DI workflow (4K 35mm scan
downsampled to 2K), with 2K 35mm filmout, 2K Dcinema, HD and SD deliverables.

4K deliverable is actually quite straighforward, but it's a big hit on the budget for a 4K grade and 4K 35mm filmout.

[Brian Broz]

Did anyone get a chance to see the NHK Ultra HD demo at NAB?

There were several 4K monitors lining the booth showing 8K footage downconverted to 4K...truly stunning! I believe these displays are made by ASTRO and my guess would be 42" to 50" size.

I'm sure the price is out-of-this-world, but the technology is out there.

[Stuart English]

Yes those 4K monitors ( 3840 pixels technically) are several times the price of the RED ONE.

[Stuart English]

Scratch answers can be obtained from -

http://www.assimilateinc.com/

Lucas Wilson
Los Angeles, CA
USA
Tel: 310.593.1111
lucas@assimilateinc.com

[Graeme Nattress]

Did you also see the massive amounts of edge sharpening applied to the NHK footage on the Astro displays - made it look very video. Also, when they paused, you got what looked like interlaced pause with two fields alternating.... Weird.....

Graeme

[Chris Swartz]

Sorry my mistake on the 2K vs 1080. They are not the same.

Are we to assume that we will be able to use an AJA to view 1080 out it's HD-SDI if we edit native Redcode Raw? I would prefer to not have to transcode to ProRes unless necessary. Someone said they were getting 1k out the aja to a monitor, is this true?

[Simon Blackledge]

.. I take it as its in FCP and your editing it you just set your preview prefs to aja or blackmagic whatever as redcode is just quicktime codec :-/ maybe..

might be a size issue though if these cards all like 720p 1080i etc and redcode is doing divisions of 4k >2k>1k>512 etc..

Fast forward 2 months and I'm sure all will be revealed..

[Nick Shaw]

Both Blackmagic and AJA products can send a 1080p window on a 2k time-line out to a broadcast monitor. In FCP 5 this only works with specific codecs (slightly different list for BMD and AJA).

I'm hoping that with FCP 6 being more codec independent this will no longer be the case, and we'll be able to work with REDCODE 4k media on a 2k proxy time-line while viewing in real-time on a 1080p monitor. Anybody from RED care to comment if this is likely to be the case? Or indeed what external monitoring you have had working on your own setup.

With the Blackmagic Multibridge Extreme, you can monitor 2k via DVI on a 30" Cinema Display, and with their upcoming Multibridge Eclipse, paired with their HDLink Pro, you will have 3D LUTs available for calibrating that display as well.

[Lucas Wilson]

Scratch is supposed to handle the Redcode RAW natively, but how much is Scratch, and isn't it a windows only solution? (I don't know much about Scratch so I could be completely wrong here, I'm assuming it's ridiculously expensive since they didn't even have a booth at NAB, only an appointment only demo. That says $$$ to me.)

Another way of interpreting that is that we are a relatively new company without the budget of an Apple or Avid and chose not to spend the truly exorbitant prices for a show floor space in favor of private suites where we could book targeted demos for people who will probably buy stuff... and also have the freedom of a stereo and a full wet bar. : )

SCRATCH does handle REDCODE RAW natively. We were showing 4K REDCODE RAW in our suites with full panel-based color correction.

SCRATCH is currently an XP-only system. Is that an issue? There are many good reasons for that, and none of them have to do with bias. We are a completely GPU-centric application with requirements to do video I/O from resolutions of 2K and above with multiple realtime layers of color correction. ...and Apple/OS-X does not support the SDI option for the NVidia 4500/5500.

As far as "ridiculously expensive," if you're looking for a US$2K application, then we're probably out of your range. But we are priced *signficantly* lower than any other product that does what we do.

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Júlio Taubkin]

Absolutely, I saw a demo of scratch in Brazil recently. Their product is fantastic!

[Chris Swartz]

Lucas,

I appreciate the fact that you guys are new and not on the floor, I was just disappointed that after I watched the Red show and they talked you guys up that I wasn't able to walk over to a booth and check it out. I did run into the software at the Bluefish booth with the JBL controller and thought that's where I wanna be!

As for the XP stuff, I'm a PC guy myself (which could almost get you shot on this board, LOL) and my workflow would probably be transcode to DNxHD edit in Avid and kick out an ALE and import Redcode Raw into Scratch for finish. Which could be good, because I could have edit and finish conceivable on the same box, now if Avid would believe this Red thing is really gonna happen, I'd be completely happy. Native support inside Media Composer would rock! Sorry guys still not ready to give up my Avid, even though Apple's got me thinking about it hard.

Ok so for us indie guys out here, I'm thinking using Scratch as a finishing tool would be rental only, but who knows what budgets will bring.

BTW How do you guys monitor 4k out of your box? 4k projector out of sdi on Nvidia Card.

Thanks for the info

Chris