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View Full Version : Red 18-85 & Cooke 18-100 Test



MJ KERBER
10-02-2008, 06:21 PM
Today, we tested our Cooke 18-100 alongside the Red 18-85 (provided by Video Resources).

Look for Matt Uhry to post a link to the footage sometime fairly soon (can't speak to his exact schedule/timeline for doing this...maybe tonight). And I'm sure he'll include an intelligent, knowledgeable written breakdown/opinion.

This wasn't meant to be an absolute, scientific study of each lens. Nonetheless, I think it's valuable and can give one the confidence to purchase and/or shoot with the lens and know what they can expect. Of course, it's best to see the results (coming soon) or do the tests yourself and assess from there, but the following is a basic rundown of some attributes and characteristics:

PHYSICALITY/BUILD:

• As you've seen, it's big. A little shorter than the Cooke 18-100 but definitely a larger diameter housing overall. Anyone ordering should get a carry handle. A.C.'s with small hands should be careful ; ) Did it need to be that big because of the size of the optical elements? Questionable. Our 138mm ring wouldn't fit because of the front element's size, so an adapter will be needed. Our Chrosziel FF, with its current lens rod bracket, will not clear and mount. Another work around to address. By no means deal breakers, but it would be nice not to have to tweak and reconfigure.
With the Cooke 18-100, the above issues don't exist in the same way. It fits the 'standard' a bit better.

• Absolutely needs a solid support bracket and there is very little non-moving, flat real-estate on the lens to make it work. Doable, but too bad this wasn't factored into the design. On the Cooke it's a non-issue.

• Iris, Zoom and Focus all feel smooth. The dampening on the focus felt a little heavier than our Cooke's, but overall not an issue. PRO for sure.

IMAGE (**Note: All footage was shot wide open--T3 on the Cooke 18-100 and--T2.9 on the Red 18-85):

• Fall off: The 18-100 is known to fall off fairly noticeably on the edges and corners. The 18-85 exhibited less fall off--field illumination was more even. This happens to be the only characteristic where the 18-85 really had a tangible, useful advantage (shooting greenscreen, etc.) over the 18-100.

• Ramping: The 18-85 did not exhibit any noticeable ramping to my eye. It looked like a true T2.9 throughout the zoom range.

• Chromatic Aberration: 18-85 is comparable to the Cooke. Both are good.

• Breathing: 18-85 is comparable to the Cooke. Neither is great/perfect, but both are acceptable in many shooting situations (these are zooms after-all).

• Distortion: At 18mm the 18-85 is comparable to the Cooke. Noticeable on both.

• Edge to Edge Sharpness: The 18-85 has a slight advantage over the Cooke.

• Flare: Not scientific by any means, but the Cooke exhibits more interesting, beautiful flares. The 18-85 reigns it in a little more, so it's objectively a little more forgiving/better but if you WANT a nice flare, then...

• Flavor: The Cooke exhibits a certain warmth and "dimensionality" (to borrow from Matt) that other, perhaps objectively better zoom lenses don't exhibit. The Red lens feel a bit more clinical. Some may prefer the 'look' of one lens over the other for specific situations. Forget fall-off, forget edge to edge sharpness, how does each lens speak to you on other, more subjective levels? Our test didn't fully explore the above notion, but sometimes it doesn't take much to recognize those things.

CONCLUSION:

The Red 18-85 is an exceptional lens, especially when you consider the price point.

The Cooke 18-100 has some definite build/physicality advantages over the 18-85.

Objectively, when it comes to imaging characteristics, the 18-85 seems to have some advantages (fall-off and edge to edge sharpness) over the Cooke.

Subjectively, I prefer the Cooke's 'flavor' over the 18-85, but I would not hesitate for a second to use the 18-85 if I wanted its look for whatever I was shooting. I'd like to keep both lenses in our arsenal if possible.

If you're on the fence about purchasing the 18-85 and $10,000 is your budget, I would pull the trigger right now (although the wait time for delivery is another factor to consider).

Hope the above is helpful in some way.

-Michael Jacob Kerber
D.P. / L.A.

Colin C
10-02-2008, 06:56 PM
Thanks for the great comparrison report , Michael, makes me feel even happier for my choice.

Curiosity wise I'm wondering how the RED's more "clinical" feel would be here in Australia's more sharper? light quality? Very subjective I know but I do feel like our light has more of a bite to it.

Matt Uhry
10-02-2008, 07:03 PM
Thanks for the great comparrison report , Michael, makes me feel even happier for my choice.

Curiosity wise I'm wondering how the RED's more "clinical" feel would be here in Australia's more sharper? light quality? Very subjective I know but I do feel like our light has more of a bite to it.

Yeah, the lights quite different in southern hemisphere - I know what you mean.

I'll post some direct comparisons with the cooke 18-100, from the tests today in a few hours and you can see what you think.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry

Roberto B
10-02-2008, 07:12 PM
glad to see you here posting matt.. above all.. testing.

Jeff Kilgroe
10-02-2008, 07:20 PM
Awesome, this is the test I've been waiting for!

I look forward to the footage.

As for the lens support issue, RED has a support for the 18-85 coming soon here, it's supposedly just a bit behind in the manufacturing. I'm not sure what this support looks like...

M.Halsell
10-02-2008, 07:21 PM
thanks for sharing your observations and effort.

MJ KERBER
10-02-2008, 07:34 PM
Draeger, yes, I think you'll have a sharp lens in some sharp, crisp light. It is subjective, but ultimately, as you're alluding to, those are the details one thinks about in combination when creating images--lighting, lenses, filmstock, this electronic camera vs. another, filters, etc. Subjectivity is a good thing. The Red One can be so sharp and clean that sometimes you need something in the mix to give it more 'texture.'

And maybe the word 'clinical' is misleading, as it seems like a negative thing. Maybe clean is a better term, though it's not like the Cooke is dirty, you know. My impression is based, so far, on a very limited context (the test) so I look forward to shooting more with the 18-85 and evaluating it in a range of situations.

-Michael Jacob Kerber
D.P. / L.A.

Roberto B
10-02-2008, 07:42 PM
And maybe the word 'clinical' is misleading, as it seems like a negative thing. Maybe clean is a better term, though it's not like the Cooke is dirty, you know. yes.. we know.. it's not difficult to get it.. one more crispy another more filmic.. is this wrong?..

edit
me loves when they compare film to dirt.. ehehehehe

Brent J. Craig
10-02-2008, 07:51 PM
Thanks for the comparisons! I know exactly what you mean when you say a lens is 'clinical' and this is the kind of analysis you cannot get from charts and graphs.

Ultimately the usefulness of a lens is based on completely subjective measurements rather than numerical analysis. I am very anxious to work with the Red 18-85. Flare and breathing are probably the biggest issues for me.

Deanan
10-02-2008, 09:07 PM
How did the bokeh compare?
I love it on the 18-85.

MJ KERBER
10-02-2008, 09:19 PM
edit
me loves when they compare film to dirt.. ehehehehe[/QUOTE]

Who compared film to dirt? Maybe you're being sarcastic and/or self-referential, but if not I suggest you take a look at how clean images can be when you combine modern filmstocks and lenses.

-Michael Jacob Kerber
D.P. / L.A.

Roberto B
10-02-2008, 09:35 PM
Who compared film to dirt? Maybe you're being sarcastic and/or self-referential, but if not I suggest you take a look at how clean images can be when you combine modern filmstocks and lenses.

-Michael Jacob Kerber
D.P. / L.A.we'll not start another endless.. useless.. film vs digital discussion.. won't we?.. me understands very well your posts.. your mind.. not exactly the same on reversal.. never mind.. you're there somewhere.. no complaints at all.. thx for your help.. maybe we can save 10,000 bucks.. who knows?.. :turned: you all have said well.. it's always a matter of subjectivity..

- a dirty subjective filmmaker.. ehehehehe

edit
matt.. where are you?.. post the samples.. thx again pal !

Hans von Sonntag
10-02-2008, 11:31 PM
Thanks Michael!

Your short first impression is very interesting and close to that what I thought on a different thread (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=294419&postcount=22).

Personally, I would like to see how Red's 18-85 compares to Angenieux's Optimo 17-80. I suppose the Red 18-85 is closer to this lens when talking about "feel" than to the Cooke.

Great that this new lens is so cheap and yet a real "Pro"-lens. A first choice for many.

Hans

Jeff Kilgroe
10-03-2008, 06:59 AM
How did the bokeh compare?
I love it on the 18-85.

I want to know how it compares too! I love:love: the bokeh on the Cooke 18-100. It just seems to melt into creamy goodness.

Chris Gearhart
10-04-2008, 10:56 AM
I want to know how it compares too! I love:love: the bokeh on the Cooke 18-100. It just seems to melt into creamy goodness.

I'd really like a word on this too, if there is some time to squeeze in another test.

Matt Uhry
10-04-2008, 01:51 PM
I'd really like a word on this too, if there is some time to squeeze in another test.

I don't have the lens in hand but the bokeh of the Red 18-85 looked pleasing to my eyes. I just pointed out the donut like rendering of point highlights out of academic interest - it is a telltale of the use of aspheric lens elements.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

AIO Films
10-04-2008, 02:04 PM
• As you've seen, it's big. A little shorter than the Cooke 18-100 but definitely a larger diameter housing overall. Anyone ordering should get a carry handle. A.C.'s with small hands should be careful ; ) Did it need to be that big because of the size of the optical elements? Questionable. Our 138mm ring wouldn't fit because of the front element's size, so an adapter will be needed. Our Chrosziel FF, with its current lens rod bracket, will not clear and mount. Another work around to address. By no means deal breakers, but it would be nice not to have to tweak and reconfigure.

• Absolutely needs a solid support bracket and there is very little non-moving, flat real-estate on the lens to make it work. Doable, but too bad this wasn't factored into the design. On the Cooke it's a non-issue.


After two years of product development and numerous professionals chiming in, and with the sample products from Cooke and Angenieux around for more than ten years, I'd say this is a slight disappointment. I thought optics were much harder to design than mechanical.

Can it be improved in the near future—next 100 units or something?

reality
10-04-2008, 05:55 PM
A $40,000 lens for $10,000. Wow. Do I care that I need a special support at that price? No. I can't wait to get mine.

bradvr
10-07-2008, 08:22 PM
I shot for a half-day today and our 18:85 was part of my package. The 18:85 lens performed beautifully - the pictures were outstanding and the focus and zoom was smooth without any noticeable breathing. My shoot was indoors, in available light so I was wide open at 2.9 the entire time. I tried handheld for a few shots, but without a good set-up and a shoulder mount or a Easyrig, it was quite challenging due to the weight of the lens. I switched to the 18:50 and 50:150 on a few occasions for handheld and such due to the physical size advantage but I immediately missed the extended focal length of the 18:85.

Quite pleased, yes indeed.