timecode-delay between avid & dpx-files

[a.falk]

in one of my last red-projects i found a delay in timecode between avid & dpx.
i used redrushes for creating an ale-file.
imported that into media composer, batch-imported all the reference-quicktimes (regenerated from redrushes) and rendered dpx-files from red-rushes.

i used the same tool (redrushes) on the same machine on the same day to generate the complete bunch of files and i'm not sync in timecode!
how sad is that?
metadata is fine, but essence is not sync!

the only thing i can imagine is that the reference-files are not handled the same way as a self-contained-quicktime would do.
any hints?

for now i'm not able to conform in sync. i have to slip&slide now.

[MichaelP]

How far was the offset? Did it start off correct at the head of the clip then drift?

Michael

[a.falk]

it didn't occur on all clips.
as the colorist who conformed them told me there's a delay i checked them randomly. i would say it was 50 percent without delay, 50 percent with delay.
if delay occured, it was exactly 1 frame.
in my quick check i would say that the beginning was correct, anywhere in the middle the offset started.
unfortunately i'm 2 weeks out of the office now :-( so i cannot do any further tests now.

[MichaelP]

This is what I suspected... there is an issue when merging the QT ref into the ALE that is being remedied. The issue is that REDrushes and REDCINE log the IN and OUT of the clip to the timecode of the first and last frame. Avid logging uses an EDL type logging approach in that the OUT or END is +1 frame from the actual frame (like in EDL's), this is sometimes referred to as INSIDE/OUTSIDE rather than INSIDE/INSIDE.

When the duration of the metadata is considered -1 frame from the log, the merge will make the QT fit that duration. It does so in a strange way - by dropping a frame somewhere in the middle of the clip and everything afterwards will be one frame off.

MetaCheater allows for the END to have a +1 count in the settings, a new REDCINE to ALE is being uploaded soon, and RED will be making the change to the REDrushes as part of their next release.

The Step by Step guide has been updated to reflect this as well as a few other tweaks we learn along the way... once uploaded I will let people know here as well as to those who signed up for the "be in the know" for RED updates on the Avid.com/red page.

In the meantime, users can modify the clips once imported via ALE into the bin (before the merge) by using Clip/Modify, select out and timecode, add :01 and it will change the END for all selected clips.

Michael

[a.falk]

thanks michael.
nice to know but somehow wrong from the start, don't you think?
why did red program an ale-export-feature when it was never sync?

okay. so i'm waiting for an update for redrushes to fix that.

[MichaelP]

RED did not know about the +1 logging format used in Avid. It was only recently caught. The Step by Step guide has been updated to reflect this as well as audio logging.

Michael

[Lucas Wilson]

The old inclusive/exclusive argument.

AGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH....

[running screaming....]

Lucas

[Marcus Vasques Osorio]

i am half way through a feature film... which we used REDRUSHES and ALE export from there. Is there anyway to change this problem now... most of the shots have been synced...

mahvo

[MichaelP]

It not so much a metadata issue at this point, since its the picture relative to that media that got adjusted... unfortunately no.

Michael

[Marcus Vasques Osorio]

great news.....

[Marcus Vasques Osorio]

surely the editor would have noticed that the sound sync is out in the middle of the clip?...

Also can you not modify this in the original master clip bin before exporting the final edl.... there must be solution, as slide and shift of 50% of the clips will cost me and the 3 feature films I have recomended AVID for alot of money?

I also find it very strange that this did not occur when I tested the ALE before recommending REDrushes workflow to my clients..... the workflow I used was REDrushes, proxies, ALE, transcode, clip, edl & xml export, xslt transform to REDline script, conform in nucoda... granted I used only 10 clips but I varied the lengths and the times of these clips and in and out points..... everything sat in place

One question is though!!! if the clips are out they will be out by 1 frame to little? so automatically shifting these clips in the conform should work..

mahvo

[MichaelP]

How to modify the ALE created by REDrushes is listed in the latest version of the step by step guide on www.avid.com/red. You will want to add a +1 to the END via the clip/modify increment timecode command for all selected clips.

MetaCheater has always has a +1 option in its settings which it defaults to and the REDCINE to XML has also been updated to do this automatically. RED is now aware of the issue and will be updating REDrushes to add the +1 automatically.

It is difficult to see unless there is obvious motion or you have a timecode burn-in and check he metadata above the monitors to the burn-in. Audio sync is difficult to see at +/- 1 frame, but 2 is visible. An automatic shift may not work since it is an issue between the first half of the clip and the second half of the clip...

Michael

[Marcus Vasques Osorio]

the remedy I understand, this process includes modifying the imported clips in the ALE... what I was wondering is this possible after clips have been synced with sound?

mahvo

[MichaelP]

No there isn't since the frame has already been dropped during the import. Changing the END after the fact will not change the relationship of the picture to the existing metadata.

Michael

[Marcus Vasques Osorio]

ok thanks... will just have to live with it in the conform, reimporting 4 weeks material is just not viable...

mahvo

[Marcus Vasques Osorio]

is there a way of reimporting all the clips and then they will just relink in the ready made sequences and synced material?

mahvo