RED's policy... makes me sad!

[Rami Mustakim]

Jarred's answer to Sanjin about IMS mount that voids RED's warranty:


When it comes time for the free warranty upgrades and time for the camera/sensor/EPIC/ etc upgrade program... camera's with voided warranties dont get those emails.

I fully understand that IMS mount voids RED's warranty (even if I still don't clearly understand why).
And before Jarred's answer, I still wanted to order P+S IMS solution.
But now If I also loose the camera/sensor/EPIC/ etc upgrade program... It's another story!

What makes me sad is that I didn't know about that before yesterday.
I've already bought accesories and new Leica lenses, etc... thinking of using IMS product with my future Red One camera.
But now I'm lost...

I've got some questions:

- What will happen to those who were beta users for Birger before it was certified?
- What will happen to Sanjin (for example) if finally IMS gets certified?
- What do I have to do? Wait and see and not use my Red? Use my Red with IMS but loose it all? Cancel my order?

I don't know anymore...
What I know is that I LOVE RED!
Hope things can get better.

Kind regards,

Rami

P.S: Sorry for my bad English I'm French ;-)

[A. Bastaki]

When I got my camera and Nikon mount with it, I did not know that removing.. just removing the entire mount as in removing the collimation mount + pl mount and putting it back together would void my warranty.


it was a combination of issues, including the complete removal of the structural part of our lens mount ( which by itself voids the warranty) .

I just found out yesterday.


You know, usually some products clearly say that if you open it, you void it's warranty. There's a freggin sticker on each end that says, you open this, you void the warranty.

I don't see a thread that says what voids my warranty and what does not. I don't see any documentation thats says so either.

I'm trying to clean my sensor.. there's a bug that turned out of nowhere.

Red Bug Thread (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15974&highlight=dust+speck)

i had to remove my collimation mount to see if I could clean the back of that glass.. apparently now I know I cant. And sadly I have to send out my red back cause i'm not nuts enough to open the whole front cover to get it cleaned. I never knew that opening a certain part of the mount would void my warranty. I thought only the complete removal would void it.

I don't even know if I just voided my warranty or not. I stripped 5 screws to just take off my pl mount.. now im stuck with my nikon mount.

and I stripped off another screw on my collimation mount because of this very issue.

Now, i'm too scared to even touch my camera.

I saw a video once of a collimation mount being completely taken off and then taken back on with a birger mount.. that was approved not to void the warranty.

I just read a post that says removing the collimation mount voids your warranty. even if you put it back on.

I mean... how would you know if someone secretly had an ims mount, installed it and then when the time came to upgrade to an epic.. they cleanly slapped the original pl mount back on.

I could go ahead and get screws and slap em on to my red's mount and no one would know I opened my mount.

I don't get it with this whole warranty being void issue.. it never made sense. It has to be clear cut. And it has to be applied to people who are receiving their cameras as it is applied. Not to those who poked around to ask if it voids or not. Because obviously there's a big issue between people's understanding of what logically voids their warranty and what does not and Red's understanding of what voids the warranty of supplied cameras.

I beleive there's a solution for this. There has to be a warranty reclaim policy. You installed a canon fd, ims, beta birger mount; there's a standard warranty recclaim fee of (this much) and we have to evaluate your camera to see if there are any additional charges - if applicable.

[Thomas Dobbie]

[QUOTE=Rami;297068]Jarred's answer to Sanjin about IMS mount that voids RED's warranty:



I fully understand that IMS mount voids RED's warranty (even if I still don't clearly understand why).
And before Jarred's answer, I still wanted to order P+S IMS solution.
But now If I also loose the camera/sensor/EPIC/ etc upgrade program... It's another story!

That's exactly how I feel,loosing the upgrade program certainly changes my mind. I just wish that P&S would get their fingers out of their arse and get on with redesigning the mount. They are fantastic engineers,it shouldn't be too much of a problem for them.
I can work around the problem,I only use Nikon mount Zeiss ZF's and PL mount lenses,so I can have the Nikon mount on one of my cameras and just leave the PL on the other.
It's disappointing though.
Tom

[Roberto B]

red owners life is not easy..

[A. Bastaki]

we are the guinea pigs of adopting this camera early.

all the new fucken bastards are laughin their ass off cause they waited. and us fucken beleivers ate shit when we thought we are getting an amoeba of a camera that can wipe our asses n brush our teeth and take pretty pictures... until reality was a bitch.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

i did send my red back too, but i didnt had to pay again taxes...
i just had to fill a form before sending it back.

no similar thing in UAE?

[A. Bastaki]

i did send my red back too, but i didnt had to pay again taxes...
i just had to fill a form before sending it back.

no similar thing in UAE?

Kaya.. ure fucken awesome man.

I went to fedex.. i told emif i have to pay taxes again.. they were like YES.

And then I got the idea of calling a freind of mine who works for the customs... hes like.. ill give you a form.. you wont pay anything.

ahh.. well.. time to edit posts.

[Roberto B]

Kaya.. ure fucken awesome man.

ahh.. well.. time to edit posts.me always thought kaya was a german girl.. :) seemed funny to see you akube in your avatar handling with a terrific blonde.. :whistling:

edit
no more fantasies kaya!.. i leave you for tom.. ehehehehehe

[Cüneyt Kaya]

me always thought kaya was a german girl.. :) seemed funny to see you akube in your avatar handling with a terrific blonde.. :whistling:

edit
no more fantasies kaya!.. i leave you for tom.. ehehehehehe

if i would change my avatar to terrence malick, i thing Tom would go crazy...

and kaya is a female name in poland....i know a lot of blond ones...hehe

[A. Bastaki]

me always thought kaya was a german girl.. :) seemed funny to see you akube in your avatar handling with a terrific blonde.. :whistling:

edit
no more fantasies kaya!.. i leave you for tom.. ehehehehehe

HaaHaa..

I met the guy already at Berlinale :D

[Jay A. Kelley]

we are the guinea pigs of adopting this camera early.

all the new fucken bastards are laughin their ass off cause they waited. and us fucken beleivers ate shit when we thought we are getting an amoeba of a camera that can wipe our asses n brush our teeth and take pretty pictures... until reality was a bitch.

Please, for the love of God, don't tell me you are just now figuring this out!

How many times, has Jim, Jarred and lord knows how many other people have used the words "beta" in the same sentence as RED.

You also know you have gotten buttloads of special features, and the right to brag and use a piece of equipment that others are still waiting for.

Let's not act like victims and try to re-write history all at the same time here folks.. It makes us look small.

Jay

[Rami Mustakim]

Please, for the love of God, don't tell me you are just now figuring this out!
Jay

I knew that IMS mount would void RED's warranty.

What I didn't know is that I would loose the camera/sensor/EPIC/ etc
upgrade program...

You knew that Jay?

[Stephen Pruitt]

Yep. . . that free upgrade loss is HUGE. . . REALLY HUGE. . . I was quite interested in the IMS system until that. No more. I'll stay with my Nikons and, hopefully, one of the smart EOS mounts.

No IMS for this boy. I intend to upgrade. . . and to Epic.

Stephen

[A. Bastaki]

Jay, for fuck's sake... we all knew that... our release builds still feel like beta. And we all know its all beta. but hey.. who said RED policy can't be beta too?

We helped change so much to the better.. why not change the policies. Come on you know politics.. its all about policies... and the best politics revolve around leadership that allows Change. Change towards whats good.
- I feel like an Obama follower now -
It's a democracy... everytime we get a nail of dictatorship we don't just go with it, we hit the nail until its even with all the rest of the nails.

The free upgrade loss is HUGE. what if you get a scratch on your mount.. what if dirt got on it.. what if.. only a portion of it got ef'd up.. you can always pay for a new mount to get it fixed.. i dont see why we have to lose the entire warranty?

You drill a hole in your PL mount..You remove your mount for the entire camera.. you lose your warranty on your sensor.. on all the boards in your camera.. for every chip.. for every peice of glass.. for everything that has nothing to do with your mount? That's a load of bull. You can say a camera is beta.. but you can't just void the entire warranty on the whole body of the camera if a portion of it is jeopardized.

Come on Jay. Tell me I am Wrong and what I am saying is unfair.


I knew that IMS mount would void RED's warranty.

What I didn't know is that I would loose the camera/sensor/EPIC/ etc
upgrade program...

Tell me he is unfair.

and him...

Yep. . . that free upgrade loss is HUGE. . . REALLY HUGE. . .

Alright.. IMS sucks ass. they are fucken assholes for not communicating. but god damn it.. the guys who risked voiding warranties of the front of their cameras.. really were desperate to use such a mount. They did not know they'd lose their shot at Epic too.

I know I did not do anything serious that would void my camera's warranty. But I am scared shitless... I don't even want to touch the front of my camera anymore...

[A. Bastaki]

Listen.. Jay.. I KNOW.. how just the RED Nikon mount fucked up my camera... ive been in pain for the last 3 months.. I havent been able to rent out my camera cause of the dust speck that turned out cause of it. Changing mounts is a dangerous game.

I honestly wouldn't mind paying for the damages, if any, made by swapping RED's own Nikon mount. I stripped a couple of screws.. I dunno what else happened when i was changing mounts.. I scarred my PL mount for good (though it's still perfectly functional).

BUT Please, for Any Reason at all, DO not Tell me that the warranty has been void for your entire camera. Tell me you gotta pay to fix these... and you will get your warranty back. I don't mind replacing the entire freggin front of the camera.. not the sensor.. -----IF----- I or anyone else who has voided their warranty whilst installing RED's own Nikon mount, IMS mount.. Birger mount.. any other mount.

And I am telling you guys.. Alot can go wrong when changing mounts.. A lot.

[PeterM]

No compain pls. Its Red decision not yours.
What let you think if you buy an I phone you simply can swap during travel the simcard ?
What let you think that you can simple swap the mount without consequences.?
What let you think after Red sold 5000 REDs Red different?

[Ed Watkins]

Listen.. Jay.. I KNOW.. how just the RED Nikon mount fucked up my camera... ive been in pain for the last 3 months.. I havent been able to rent out my camera cause of the dust speck that turned out cause of it. Changing mounts is a dangerous game.

I honestly wouldn't mind paying for the damages, if any, made by swapping RED's own Nikon mount. I stripped a couple of screws.. I dunno what else happened when i was changing mounts.. I scarred my PL mount for good (though it's still perfectly functional).

BUT Please, for Any Reason at all, DO not Tell me that the warranty has been void for your entire camera. Tell me you gotta pay to fix these... and you will get your warranty back. I don't mind replacing the entire freggin front of the camera.. not the sensor.. -----IF----- I or anyone else who has voided their warranty whilst installing RED's own Nikon mount, IMS mount.. Birger mount.. any other mount.

And I am telling you guys.. Alot can go wrong when changing mounts.. A lot.

Hey Akube,
Can you elaborate on what happened to your camera due to switching to a RED Nikon mount?

Also dust can be cleaned off the sensor/OLPF using one of these:
http://www.visibledust.com/products.php

Thanks.

[Clint Johnson]

We helped change so much to the better.. why not change the policies. Come on you know politics.. its all about policies... and the best politics revolve around leadership that allows Change. Change towards whats good.
- I feel like an Obama follower now -
It's a democracy... everytime we get a nail of dictatorship we don't just go with it, we hit the nail until its even with all the rest of the nails.


Red certainly isn't a democracy, Jim has made it clear that it is a benevolent dictatorship... and that is just what it should be. A company like Red that moves so fast needs a firm hand on the tiller and trying to run it "democratically" would be a disaster. Even so much as a board of directors would slow it down too much.

But as a good king, Jim does listen and when he hears reasoned arguments that make a good case for a change, he does sometimes implement it. So even though I had no plans of any warranty voiding actions, for the community I will play the supplicant.

Unless it just occurred to them, it was incumbent upon them to have emphatically stated the upgrade and trade in voiding nature of what a good portion of the Red owners have done and were planning to do.

If it has just come to their attention and is a newly created policy that has heretofore remained unvoiced, it would behove them to create a warranty recertification program of some sort. Even if it is limited in time frame to keep it from becoming a financial and labour liability. One possibility I put forward is; cameras sent in any time in the next three months that have had warranty voiding actions taken upon them will be checked over and re-certified for upgrade and trade-in. At the Red owner's expense is not unreasonable.

Any actions taken after that will be viewed as informed voiding and they will be removed from list of Red Ones that can access the upgrade and trade-in programs.

[A. Bastaki]

Hey Akube,
Can you elaborate on what happened to your camera due to switching to a RED Nikon mount?

Also dust can be cleaned off the sensor/OLPF using one of these:
http://www.visibledust.com/products.php

Thanks.

I've got every gadget VisibleDust sells. The speck is "behind" the glass.

Clint... I liked every word you said Clint.. and you are right on.

[A. Bastaki]

You know... i reallly don't want guys at red to hate me.. since ive got loads of money... atleast enough to cover my red incase it gets messed up.. i dont even know why i bicker a lot.

I should just shut up. This is the last post im making on this whole mount shmount thing. I dont want to upset anyone anymore. And I don't want to join this club..

http://www.red.com/skin/img/common/lol.png

The bad attitude club. I'm a nice guy.. who's just very unfortunate... series of unfortunate events .. you might say.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

i dont personally see how tucking the icable will hurt anything.. but honestly.. why doesnt P+S just carve out a little slot so that red will accept it..
apparently that IS the only thing holding it back

[Raul Gonzo]

Hey Zakaree, Jarred talked about this yesterday:

"it wasn't just the cable.. it was a combination of issues, including the complete removal of the structural part of our lens mount ( which by itself voids the warranty) .. and although not a reason for the rejection the mild deception that was marketed to the customers doesn't help much.

And to kill the rumors... RED is not trying to just bury the IMS adapter for some sort of protection to sell RED LENSES or what have you..... I personally was the one that even tried to make this marriage happen in the first place.

I personally requested the mount be sent to RED during NAB so we could approve the changes, which we never received, and only after I again personally requested it again at Cinegear then a week later with an email follow-up did we actually receive it... and we tested it and unfortunately our suggestions were turned away.

Remember.. there is alot of things we know ahead of time that affects how these decisions are made.... for example the changes we made to the ipin system for the Audio Upgrade program that will happen shortly, the side effects of heat, etc. etc. etc. There are many things to consider besides looking at it like just changing a couple screws..."

all in this thread: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18987&page=14

[Zakaree Sandberg]

thanks.. just got back on the boards from a long week at work