Timecode - in REDCODE - HDCAMSR backups

[roryhinds]

Hi there

I've a project that will require a HDCAMSR backup of the RED footage and am trying to work out what Timecode the camera will generate and support.

Will the camera generate its own Timecode encoded into the REDCODE files?
Can I then at the end of a days shoot playout the files to a HDCAMSR deck and feed it the RED timecode so the tapes match the files?

My biggest concern is getting the tape backups matching the files as it would suck if the tapes and the files have not reference to each other.

Anyone got info on RED and timecode?

Regards
Rory

[Nick Shaw]

We know from the connections on the camera that there is time-code in and out. I would therefore assume that all REDCODE clips have time-code in the meta-data. What we don't know is if the in camera playback has a "play all clips on this RED-DRIVE back to back with countinous time-code from the clips coming out of the TC port, and also in the RP-188 data on the HD-SDI feed" mode.

That would certainly be useful, and I assume not hard to implement in a future software update if it's not in the initial one.

Can I add my request for that to be possible?

Data driven workflows are great, but there will be those who still want tape, and a simple way to dump to tape would be great. Potentially also useful for those dinosaurs who want a Beta SP one-light to offline from!

[roryhinds]

Yeah tape back is a major issue as larger budget features are insisting on SR backups as its proven technology so keeps the bonding company happy.

I guess if the REDCODE clips had continues timecode it would be cool to play all and dump to tape for the backup which as the same timecode as the files.

Maybe have an option to playout a selection of clips so as to make sure it fits on the SR tape and then play out the other selection on a tape change.

Hopefully someone from RED can comment on the unknown timecode workflow.

[Simon Blackledge]

Would you not just import all the clips off the drive onto a raid/edit station.

Load into timelines and playout to SR? Not to clued up on fcp yet but assume you can playout to tape using the first TC from the first clip ?

Otherwise you need a camera to playout the same duration you shot.

Maybe a plugin for FCP like the RAD import has an option to Archive. Select data or tape. Data would have a drive size and tape a duration 30/90/124 etc..

[roryhinds]

that would mean a trancode first as you would have to get the 4k REDCODE to 1080 RGB 4.4.4 - not sure it the TC data (if it exsists) would copy over.

You would also need to feed the deck TC and this would be external to FCP.

The big question is does the camera generate its own TC and embed this into the REDCODE file and does the Camera output this TC when playing back the clip in camera?

Plus will the dual link HD SDI outputs on the camera output the clip playing on the camera or do the only work when recording so you would have to be tethered to the deck.

[Nick Shaw]

Simon

Loading all the clips into the edit suite is not really a viable option for a quick end of the day dump to tape. As Rory says, that would involve a transcode to enable full quality playback. Also if, for example, you were shooting time of day code, that would be lost if you simply assembled all the clips on a time-line and laid that to tape.

Yes, you would need to have a camera available for the duration of the tape dump, but at least it would be real-time using the camera's built in playback. Probably not suitable for doco, or other high ratio shoot, but ok for drama.

On the subject of the RAD import into FCP, I really hope that does preserve timecode or it's going to cause major problems! Can't possibly see that it wouldn't.

[Simon Blackledge]

RedDeck ? :)

I see ya points guys.. hmm. So there's something in the body that transcodes in real time? Maybe the playback is the same as the 1k proxy in fcp.. no need to show playback at 4k on an lcd etc..

[Nick Shaw]

I'm assuming that since the dual link HD-SDI can provide 4:4:4 output at full quality while recording, it can do the same on playback.

[roryhinds]

I guess we need to hear from someone at RED about TC as its all an unknown for now...

[Simon Blackledge]

Nice set-up ya have there Rory.
"the private roof terrace comes complete with hot-tub spa and barbecue grill, " lol


Nick, assume nothing.. expect the unexpected.. lol..now who was it said that.....

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

In theory couldn't you record to a red drive and HDCAM SR at the same time?

why wait till the end of the day to do a duplicate.

[roryhinds]

you would have the hassle of being tethered and its still have the big question of does the camera output Timecode which is the same TC thats in the REDCODE file - making working from tape or REDCODE file transparent

[Nick Shaw]

Plus you would need a way to synchronize the starting and stopping of the deck frame accurately with the RED-DRIVE, which is basically impossible. Assuming you are using record run time-code on the RED-DRIVE clips, so the first frame of clip 2 is one frame later in time-code terms than the last frame of clip 1, what happens on the tape? If you started the tape early, and stopped it late, to ensure you had the entire clip, then the time-code would keep jumping backwards at the start of each new clip. This would be a nightmare in the edit.

[Stuart English]

I do need to go back to that "all specifications subject to change" disclaimer..

But yes, this requirement is understood. As is the associated problem with pre / post roll timecode if you are using Time of Day ( Absolute / GPS ) or External Timecode for your file based recording....

[Lucas Wilson]

I guess we need to hear from someone at RED about TC as its all an unknown for now...

[alert: sales pitch... alert: sales pitch]

How about this for a dailies workflow:

1) Finish shooting.
2) Hook REDDRIVE to SCRATCH
3) Playback REDCODE natively
4) Realtime output to any SMPTE format via NVidia SDI... with color correction, rescaling, pan/scan, burnin, etc.

No transcoding, no nothing. Shoot, hook up drive, output to tape in realtime.

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[GlennChan]

Why not just backup onto LTO3? (Or other computer-based tape system.)

[roryhinds]

I guess we need deck control built in so the RED ONE can control the camera via RS422.

Using Scratch - yeah I'll just have to sell my grandmother to cover the cost :-)

LTO3 is great for the data backup's but bonding companies want proven technology so insist on HDCAMSR even though you will prob never use the tape, they want to make sure the footage is secure.

Stuart - how close are you guys to coming up with a solution to TimeCode?
Is this one of those things that will only come at the end of year?
I should be getting my camera in June and of course would like to start shooting straight away :-)

[Nick Shaw]

You shouldn't need deck control. Just set the HDCam SR to external time-code, reading either from the LTC in or RP-188.

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

Doesn´t the new AJA box they showed at the Apple event have TC-in?
Must be good for something, I guess.

Jochen

[roryhinds]

AJA ioHD is only 4.2.2 not 4.4.4

[DeaneThrussell]

New Final Cut studio looks great and has solved alot of issues i had with it...But I still love my Avid and can cut so quick with it...so has anyone tryed Automatic duck cos, i'm wondering if this is a solution... for off line in avid then take it back to FCP get my beautiful 4k back and suck it in to inferno for final love,

what do you guys think

[Nick Shaw]

Automatic Duck is a great product. I've used it numerous times to do FCP onlines of projects cut on Avid. So long as you preserve the time-code when you convert REDCODE to Avid for offline (how easy that is to do going via Quicktime I don't know) you should be able to use Automatic Duck to get the edit into FCP, then send a RED PULL LIST to REDCINE to conform.

Automatic Duck is not, and doesn't claim to be, Avid 'total conform', but it does get a lot more information from Avid to FCP than you can do with an EDL.

[roryhinds]

I think the RED - Apple partnership is going to hurt Avid a lot.

Avid can be a real pain to work with compared to how open FCP is.

[Ken Corben]

I gotta' say there were so many different HDCAM decks at the Sony booth I felt like I was navigating a barge thru a fogbank trying to understand the differences from the products' 3x5 cue cards.

I simply want to understand the basic principle here.

4K redcode RAW compression transfered to HDCAM VS HDCAM SR.
The difference is Sony's YUV color space compression of 4:2:2 vs SR's uncompressed (?) 4:4:4.

SR requires use of dual HD/SDI output to maintain 4:4:4, correct?

Does it really matter which one is chosen given that 4K original is being downrezzed and compressed from redcode anyway?

A simple answer anyone?

[Nick Shaw]

HDCam is 8 bit 4:2:2 1440x1080 DCT compression – noticeably lossy
HDCam SR is 10 bit 4:4:4 1920x1080 MPEG-4 Studio Profile (whatever that means) – visually lossless (aparently)
The difference is significant

[GlennChan]

LTO3 is great for the data backup's but bonding companies want proven technology so insist on HDCAMSR even though you will prob never use the tape, they want to make sure the footage is secure.
A lot of the computing world (including banks) uses tape for backup so could you not convince the bonding company that LTO3 makes more sense? I believe Showreel has an article about Viper workflow where they used LTO for backup (and it satisfied their bond company).

The problem with HDCAM SR is that you get a quality loss, and you run into a weird workflow since you have to deal with data+tape (instead of just replacing your data and picking up where you left off).

Plus with LTO3, you can make backups on set (assuming you have clean power) and you can make multiple copies. If you do that, you should really have your bases covered. Then the bond company just has to worry about things like weather (maybe one day Red will develop a weather control system?).

[Rocco Schult]

What a monster post, will anybody read it anyway ?
I give it a try.


Data driven workflows are great, but there will be those who still want tape, and a simple way to dump to tape would be great. Potentially also useful for those dinosaurs who want a Beta SP one-light to offline from!

Absolutely. Think about a company renting the stuff - you cannot convince everybody to follow you. And together with redcine etc. you are able to incorporate the classic workflows (like pulling the material).


Simon

Loading all the clips into the edit suite is not really a viable option for a quick end of the day dump to tape. As Rory says, that would involve a transcode to enable full quality playback. Also if, for example, you were shooting time of day code, that would be lost if you simply assembled all the clips on a time-line and laid that to tape.

As far as I understood, the RED Quicktimes play directly back. But I am unsure about a direct output from timeline to tape.
Regarding TC, as long as you can get it to an audio track or something, make external TC on the deck and the TC is fed from the clips. Just the question if FCP/QT/AJA are able to provide the necessary routing.

On the other hand:


[alert: sales pitch... alert: sales pitch]

How about this for a dailies workflow:

1) ... 4) Realtime output .. with color correction, rescaling, pan/scan, burnin, etc.

No transcoding, no nothing. Shoot, hook up drive, output to tape in realtime.

But at least you are right :biggrin:


Why not just backup onto LTO3? (Or other computer-based tape system.)

Besides, SR might be a little bit longer alive than LTO.
Which computer-based tape system is still alive like digibeta, HDcam, or BetaSP ?
Think about an 15 year old tape based system....


...so could you not convince the bonding company that LTO3 makes more sense?

The problem is convincing them. When you're production company wants because you have a good line with them - alright, get into discussion, because thats what it will (probably) be.
Otherwise: just satisfy them and do the SRs.
On the other hand: With LTOs you better do 2 backups, because a dropped LTO is still less trusty than a dropped HDcam (wether SR or not).
And in the end: its for backup purposes, so if you get into a weird workflow because of one Backuptape - that doesn't matter that much, does it ?


You shouldn't need deck control. Just set the HDCam SR to external time-code, reading either from the LTC in or RP-188.

Absolutely, but incorporating RS422 is not the worst idea.
RED has USB -hook it up to a USB-RS232 converter, which can be converted to 422. Not elegant, but absolutely useable.
Both possiblities would make it more versatile. And I could imagine both applications. Think about audio recorders hooked up as slave and start recording when the amera does ?

[roryhinds]

any input from the RED team?

[GlennChan]

Which computer-based tape system is still alive like digibeta, HDcam, or BetaSP ?
I'd add Umatic to that list... ;P it's still in professional use (a few times a year for some houses).

But the selling point of LTO3 would be:
--full quality
--not quirky workflow... because to suddenly introduce tape into the workflow would be weird.
--cheaper?
--multiple backups

Maybe HDCAM SR would last longer... but you only need the LTO tapes for short-term backup. The final version can be archived onto SR (in addition to other formats?).

[Alex Boothby]

A bit off topic but potentially useful.... Years ago our company used Quantel Domino which scanned, composited, and recorded at roughly 3K ('big canvas' was 2880 x 2048 as I recall). Projects were archived to D5 tape in a linear fashion - but in quadrants: top right; top left; bottom right, etc. When projects were restored, these quadrants were reassembled back into full 3K plates. At the time (mid 90s) this linear 'layoff' method was faster than file archives, and was safer as the data could easily be rebuilt even if the header information was corrupted. Very old school but it works.

In such a manner you could layoff or archive 4K to HD-SR. Data rates would be roughly 5x realtime (minus encoding) - each quadrant requiring 1 HD frame, plus a 5th HD frame for the remaining 13.7% image (plus audio, metadata and proxies perhaps). A 90 mins HD-SR tape would hold 18 mins of 4K.

I wonder if someone could write a little 'fragment and reassemble' script that taps into existing I/O tools. Might be something Assimilate could look into. I understand that wavelet compressed images crop very easily (we call it windowed :biggrin: ) so encoding time may be minimal.

Why bother? Well, there are many post houses that have invested heavily in HD-SR, and it seems quite possible to configure these decks to archive full 4K. Also I think this would be a very safe archive method that no insurer could rightly refuse. Personally, I have dozens of useless SDLT, DTF and file archives that will not open due to corrupted header info, lost OTOCs, etc. But this method is essentially linear, meaning archived images can always be rebuilt with ease. It may seem a bit convoluted, but for big $$$ productions I'm sure producers would be happy to walk away with a 5 tape HD-SR backup archive of their 4K master.

[Lucas Wilson]

In such a manner you could layoff or archive 4K to HD-SR. Data rates would be roughly 5x realtime (minus encoding) - each quadrant requiring 1 HD frame, plus a 5th HD frame for the remaining 13.7% image (plus audio, metadata and proxies perhaps). A 90 mins HD-SR tape would hold 18 mins of 4K.

I wonder if someone could write a little 'fragment and reassemble' script that taps into existing I/O tools. Might be something Assimilate could look into. ...

While I appreciate the extra work you suggest for ASSIMILATE... :)

Most major post facilities and studios that I deal with have a very good archiving solution for 4K... the original negative! At least right now, it is cheaper and faster to rescan the o-neg than archive an entire lab roll scan at 4K.

I'm sure that will change over time. And this is not 100%. Some facilities do archive select amounts of 4K. But in general, the o-neg is the archive. Several studios also use YCM separation masters and a salt cave. For anyone that is *really* interested in archiving, you should hang out on the AMIA-L - The Association of Moving Image Archivists. It's a fairly dry, technical board with a lot of archivists and library scientists... but is a great place to learn.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA.

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

Same here in Germany. This "backup" is the uncut, uncorrected, unscored, unmixed version of the film.
Any restore is going to be quite an ordeal. Hopefully any kind of digital data like edl´s, mixfiles, etc. is still there.

Jochen

[Alex Boothby]

Ummmm.... Red is a data camera.