Avid DNxHD QT codec now posted!

[MichaelP]

http://www.avid.com/red/

Go to the Avid Resource TAB and you will find the v1.10 installer for Mac and PC for the Avid DNxHD codec. This updates solves the "noise" that was created when rendering directly to the Avid DNxHD codec from REDrushes or REDCINE.

Keep in mind that REDCINE and REDrushes still only default to the 175x/180x/220x codecs depending on frame rate.


Michael

[Virgil Kastrup]

Thank you so very very much :-)

[Michael Lindsay]

This is a great step forward!!

Lets hope Red quickly exposes proper QT controls in their tools to allow us to choose different options???

M

[Sean]

I'd stopped following the "buzz" for a while, and couldn't figure out why when I re-installed my edit system I was getting that colourful miasma (noise) from RedCine. Now I know. Downloading the new codec as I type.

[Sean]

Sorry, can someone briefly re-cap what the default DNxHDs would be for different frame rates? I don't see that info.

[MichaelP]

It is dependent on the source file frame rate -

24fps = 175
25fps - 180
60(i)fps = 220

You can't choose it, just happens because of the number of frames per second.

Michael

[Sean]

Thank you.

Do you know if the slow import issue to Avid has been resolved? A while back, RedCine DNxHD files were taking an inordinate amount of time to be ingested into Avid (normally, such files would be ingested very quickly, since there should be no conversion/transcoding involved; however, there was some mysterious transcoding going on that was slowing things down somewhat).

[MichaelP]

fast import is being fixed for the next major release.

Michael

[Jason Diamond]

thanks michael...

[Chris Parker]

so here's a question then. i need to render out a BUNCH of clips that were shot at 2K 120fps TOMORROW for an AVID editor. I have not done this with AVID before. Do I simply render out the shots from RedRushes that I want to export, and select QT dnXhd codec, and then take them to the AVID editor and say, 'here you go.' Can that editor then import all the clips (there are 2 hours of clips) and be off to the races?

Any help with the most efficient way to do this would be greatly appreciated. Maybe Monkey Extract would help me??? as I have made selects using Final Cut Pro, and could export an EDL if this would in any way help me get only those clips I need processed into AVID codec.....

Help me kind AVID folk. Please.....

[Simon Blackledge]

another step in the right direction! great stuff..

thanks Michael

s

[Nigel Stanford]

so here's a question then. i need to render out a BUNCH of clips that were shot at 2K 120fps TOMORROW for an AVID editor. I have not done this with AVID before. Do I simply render out the shots from RedRushes that I want to export, and select QT dnXhd codec, and then take them to the AVID editor and say, 'here you go.' Can that editor then import all the clips (there are 2 hours of clips) and be off to the races?

Any help with the most efficient way to do this would be greatly appreciated. Maybe Monkey Extract would help me??? as I have made selects using Final Cut Pro, and could export an EDL if this would in any way help me get only those clips I need processed into AVID codec.....

Help me kind AVID folk. Please.....

Yes you can use Monkey Extract for this. You can use it to render the clips from your cut, either each entire clip from your cut, or just the portion of the clips using the in and out points of the cut.

[Chris Parker]

thanks nigel. i am seriously thinking your tool is the right one for my needs. If I buy it, is it an instant download? I need to begin process from .r3d to an AVID codec that the editor can work with, and I want a look applied to these clips. What is the best workflow to achieve this? And do I need any AVID Codecs installed on my Mac to make it happen? Thanks......

[Jason Diamond]

yes you need the AVID codecs installed otherwise you wouldnt be able to write/read from the codec. you can use red rushes to render to dnx 175 or higher, chosen by default due to frame rate. otherwise you can use compressor if you want to transcode from proxys/refs but you'd have to create new refs with your look you want if its gonna change based on cc.

[Kaku Ito]

Thank you.

Do you know if the slow import issue to Avid has been resolved? A while back, RedCine DNxHD files were taking an inordinate amount of time to be ingested into Avid (normally, such files would be ingested very quickly, since there should be no conversion/transcoding involved; however, there was some mysterious transcoding going on that was slowing things down somewhat).

Sean,

Isn't that something to do with AVI to MOV conversion issue? Just a thought.

[Sean]

No, apparently that's not at the root of it. RedCine outputs .mov files of any flavour. One of those flavours is DNxHD (a high-resolution, compressed QuickTime codec), which is one of Avid's "native" codecs. As such, DNxHD created outside Avid should be imported into Avid very quickly. Avid doesn't need to change the files. But RedCine has been doing something a bit different to the exported DNxHD files that caused the DNxHD files to slow down a bit on import into Avid. I didn't hear what that "something" was, but the RedCine transcoding was adding something to the files that caused Avid to take more time ingesting those files.

It's not too big a deal, because these RedCine DNxHD files still get imported into Avid perfectly, in my experience, and the pictures look great. Once this RedCine question is resolved, however, the files will be imported into Avid even faster.

[MichaelP]

A lot of the "slowness" of fast import is also on the Media Composer side in the way we optimize during the process. Work is being done specifically to this area for the next major release to make this much faster - basically "a copy".

Michael

[Kaku Ito]

Hi Sean, thanks for your report.

That sounds great Michael.

I have a question, what is the quality of DNxHD36 is like? Is it offline quality?

[Sean]

DNxHD36 is generally considered an "offline" quality, yes. If you're delivering to the web or maybe even DVD, it might be just fine--but I actually haven't used it much--I'm curious what others have found in this regard. But I do finish (i.e, online) in the higher DNxHD versions (like DNxHD 175).

[Kaku Ito]

Hi Sean, thanks.

Japanese post production company with DS Nitris was talking about it that is offline, so it must be.

[MichaelP]

36 is mainly used for offline but has been screened on 40 foot screen for reviews. it holds up very well qualty wise and is roughly 18 hours on a 300GB drive.

Michael

[Bruce Allen]

Cool cool cool! The last pieces of the puzzle are finally falling into place, yaay...

Quick question - is the lack of DNxHD36 output a RedCine issue or an Avid issue? RedCine doesn't seem to use a standard Quicktime output dialog box so I am assuming they screwed something up there?

I just shot 600gb of footage that needs to be transcoded to DNxHD36 as quickly as possible so we can start editing - so this is not an idle question ;)

Using the current workflow, I guess I'll need to run some tests and figure out whether it would be faster/better to:

1. output RedCine -> DNxHD175 and then transcode to DNxHD36 on import

or

2. output RedCine -> JPEG image sequence (image sequences seem to go faster than Quicktime in general on RedCine) and transcode to DNxHD36 on import

Thanks again MichaelP - and if possible please give us a hint if the DNxHD36 issue is something you might have working in beta or whether I should be submitting that as a RedCine feature request.

BTW, DNxHD36 absolutely rocks. A great example of a feature that separates Avid from FCP. I can never go back... Michael Tronick (Hairspray, Mr & Mrs Smith, etc) used it on the Hannah Montana 3D concert film a year ago and when I got footage from him I kept having to remind myself it was offline. It makes the whole offline -> online process so much easier for VFX because you are getting full-raster imagery from the get go. So all of your effects that use pixel values (blur radius etc) don't need to be translated when you get the online footage. You can take your project and edit happily in 1080p off an internal laptop drive. I can't believe RedCine seems like the only Win/Mac app on the planet that can't output it yet ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[MichaelP]

The lack of alternate DNxHD rates is something that RED needs to implement into REDrushes and REDCINE, REDline, etc. We are working with them to make this happen but because it does not address the codecs via the MoviePlayer interface, it cannot use the codec's list of data rates. Hopefully they will hit a breakthrough on this since it is a key element to making offline dailies in HD.

If you need quick turnaround for 36, I would suggest REDrushes to QT references and ALE (see updated workflow guide for the +1 step when using ALE's from REDrushes) and process the QT ref in either Compressor or MPEG Streamclip. I have found MPEG Streamclip to be quite fast but have not figured out a way to preserve width for the 2:1 aspect ratio. If shooting 16:9, it's fine. Also, QT refs do not carry over any changes in the color if manipulated.

A user on this forum found REDRushes to DVCPRO to be a fairly quick render. In that scenario I would use REDrushes to create the .mov with look and burn-in if needed but the ALE would need to be done in MetaCheater since MetaCheater can do the 30fps representation of the file. 720p in the NTSC world is a 59.94p format with a 30fps SMPTE addressable timecode so it looks a lot like NTSC as far as workflows are concerned. The ALE from MetaCheater would need to be tweaked in the header to work. DVCPRO would take up 2x more storage compared to DNxHD36 at a smaller raster size, but could be a useful workflow for some productions.

Michael

[Bruce Allen]

The lack of alternate DNxHD rates is something that RED needs to implement into REDrushes and REDCINE, REDline, etc. We are working with them to make this happen but because it does not address the codecs via the MoviePlayer interface, it cannot use the codec's list of data rates. Hopefully they will hit a breakthrough on this since it is a key element to making offline dailies in HD.

Gotcha. Thanks Michael.

Thank you for the good interim workflow suggestions for 36. Unfortunately I am on PC. Anyway, am just delighted by 175 working...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[MichaelP]

Hopefully we will have better PC solutions in the future...

Michael

[Chris Swartz]

Bruce,

If you want to stay on a completely PC workflow you could.

R3d to Cineform, then Cineform to DNxHD via mpeg streamclip, then fast import into Avid.

I have no idea how fast this workflow is and what metadata is saved or not, but it is a way to get where you want to go, until Avid and Red decide to let us PC users into the game.

Chris

[Bruce Allen]

Thank you for all the help and encouragement!

Good news so far - Avid seems to be really fast at making DNxHD36 media from DNxHD175 media. Even on my *very cheap* PC.

I bought another 1TB drive for $140 or so, and am rendering everything out of RedCine to DNxHD175.

Then I import into Avid at DNxHD36. So far all metadata etc seems to come across.

Next feature request (or maybe it has been done already?): have all RedCine clip color settings come across so when I do the online I can work off of my 1-light. If nobody has fixed this by the time I online I think I could write a little program:
1. user gives the program the old RedCine project (used for dailies / 1-light), plus the new RedCine project (made from EDL)
2. the program goes through the new RedCine project shot by shot and copies over color settings from the corresponding shot in the old RedCine project

Maybe this has already been done - I just haven't gotten there yet... Doesn't seem to much of a worry in any case.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[MichaelP]

We would pass it along if it were passed along in the original XML to ALE. We do get the color parameters passed to us from REDrushes, so it is possible. It is more a matter of ensuring the parameters are consistent.

Michael

[Bruce Allen]

We would pass it along if it were passed along in the original XML to ALE. We do get the color parameters passed to us from REDrushes, so it is possible. It is more a matter of ensuring the parameters are consistent.

Michael

Okay, feature request sent to RED.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=303247

A quick look at the .rcn file structure shows it shouldn't be hard for Red to implement this at all.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[MichaelP]

Similar to the ASC CDL values that Avid already carries through the post process, even a BLOB as you suggest can already be managed by Avid in the LUT column on a per event basis. This can be handed back to REDCINE, or Scratch for that matter as a starting point for the next step in the process.

Michael

[Rocco Schult]

Hi Michael,

other question:
We have been there back in 2002 with OMFI and Meridien etc. - it was a "copy" - when you say next major release it clenches somewhere in my back.
Do you mean MC4.0 ?

Cheers


A lot of the "slowness" of fast import is also on the Media Composer side in the way we optimize during the process. Work is being done specifically to this area for the next major release to make this much faster - basically "a copy".

Michael

[MichaelP]

I never know what the actual release will be called until it is released, but if I were to hazard a guess, we are at 3.0.5 right now, I would think it won't be a 4.0. I hope the back feels better. ;)

Michael

[Rocco Schult]

yes, this way it feels better.
Lets hope for a 3.1 eh ?
cheers mate

[MichaelP]

based on your proposed vesion #, I'd say 3.2 as it is not in the very next point release.

Michael

[Rocco Schult]

thanks, sounds good for me!

[arapro]

Good Job MP, great PDF !

[roryhinds]

what sort of speed hit are we talking about when importing DNxHD files generated by REDCine?

Is it not quicker or the same speed ingesting QT uncompressed (not working about file sizes)

[Kaku Ito]

Hi,

Is it possible to export DNxHD footage out of REDCINE without purchase of any AVID products?

[Yean Loon]

You can create DnxHD quicktimes out from RedCine, RedAlert or RedRushes. Althought, you are confined to 175.

[MichaelP]

You just need to have the Avid QT codecs installed on the system creating the media, not the Media Composer application - these can be downloaded from avid.com/red via the resources tab - Mac and PC.

Michael

[Kaku Ito]

Thanks guys, I asked because I get nothing but noise.

[Jason Diamond]

try downloading the latest codecs and see if that helps.

[MichaelP]

www.avid.com/red for the Avid QT codecs on the Avid resource TAB.


Michael

[Kaku Ito]

I did tried the latest today but I will give a try again. Thanks.

[Kaku Ito]

It worked beautifully, I guess I was downloading the codec set for Composer. I'll help a post house to adopt this for the feature film offline editing we are working on.

[MichaelP]

Unfortunately these did not ship with Media Composer 3.0.5 but are compatible and supported with Media Composer 3.0.5 and later.

Michael

[Sean]

Anyone getting the "noise" with new Avid DNxHD QT files inside After Effects CS3?

In my AE CS3, AE sees the new Avid DNxHD files as the same noise that RedCine used to generate (that rainbow coloured miasma).

[MichaelP]

Make sure you have the latest R3D QuickTime Component from RED.

Michael

[Sean]

Oh...is there an R3D QT Component for PC? I thought it was just Mac. I'll hunt again.

EDIT: Yes, that component is Mac only. I'm Avid PC. Always PC. ;-)

The new Avid QT codec did solve the RedCine noise issue on export. But seems to have re-introduced the exact same issue in AE CS3. Like juggling flaming torches, right?

[Christoffer Glans]

A question: Isn't there an unnecessary step to transcode an already DNxHD file?
Why can't you just do an output of let's say 720p from RedCine, put all files in a folder and then after doing some metacheating, relink to that folder without ever importing? That way you save discspace and erease a timeconsuming step (even if the import is fast).

Also, how the hell do I get sound through RedCine??? How can I edit something without sound?

[MichaelP]

The files, regardless of codec still need to be imported in order to rewrap as MXF instead of QT. The codec itself is a copy - whether that be DVCPRO HD or DNxHD, etc.

Audio is a whole other issue - the latest REDCINE does do audio, but seems to be early beta with some issues still. The lack of REDline and the R3D component on PC reduces the number of workflows we currently see on Mac.

PC users - hang in there. "A change is gonna come..." ;)

Michael

[Rocco Schult]

While the dedicated media structure on Avid has its advantages, it also has its flaws.
Michael - any chance there might be a softlink to external media in the future ? Think autodesk... hinthint..


Why can't you just do an output of let's say 720p from RedCine, put all files in a folder and then after doing some metacheating, relink to that folder without ever importing? That way you save discspace and erease a timeconsuming step (even if the import is fast). ...

[Virgil Kastrup]

The files, regardless of codec still need to be imported in order to rewrap as MXF instead of QT. The codec itself is a copy - whether that be DVCPRO HD or DNxHD, etc.
So who should I suck up to, to get MXF wrapped DNxHD files out of redline:-)

[MichaelP]

That would be RED... they are fully aware of this need... :)


Michael

[Sean]

This is probably obscure, but it has popped up again as a bug.

I'm using After Effects CS3 on the same computer as the Avid Media Composer and Redcine (but note these are the only programs we have on this workstation). I downloaded the new Avid codecs which give me correct DNxHD output from Redcine. Without these new codecs, you just get a colored miasma when you output from Redcine.

But here's the bug--when I use Cineform HD codec files (QuickTimes created with NeoHDV) within After Effects CS3, I now get the colored miasma in 16 bit and 32 bit projects. It's fine in 8 bit--the image looks normal. But in 16-bit/32-bit, I get the exact same colored miasma that Redcine used to give me with DNxHD files using the old Avid codecs.

So I uninstall the new Avid codecs, and re-install the old ones (Avid CodecsLE). And now my After Effects CS3 works perfectly again--the Cineform files appear normal in 8-bit/16-bit/32-bit projects.

Hm... Looks like I'll have to switch back and forth between Avid codec packages for now, using the new ones for Redcine and the old ones for Cineform + After Effects CS3.

[Jason Diamond]

So can Cineform not decode the new DNxHD codecs? is that the issue?

[Sean]

I wasn't trying to get Cineform to decode DNxHD.

I was actually using Cineform NeoHDV. Nothing like the Cineform 4K products at all. In fact,they recently discontinued NeoHDV and rolled it into another lower-end product.

But I thought it was worth pointing out the bug, because lots of folks use NeoHDV. And it might have some relevance for other Cineform products, I don't know.

In the end, it seems to be something funky in the new Avid codecs, which were redesigned to include R3D compatibility...but the result is this funny bug with NeoHDV and After Effects.

I might be the only one in the world who cares about it. Just thought I'd let others know, in case someone does a search (like I tried) to get to the root of this esoteric problem.

[Nils Ruinet]

Hi,
I've been trying to import DNxHD files created in RedCine (latest version, latest Avid codecs) on a PC, into Avid MC 3.5 (also latest version). These are PAL 25p files for offline editing.
It works fine, except I can't get it to make a "fast import", it always says "creating video", which is ok but takes longer. I've been trying to change all the import parameters, but it stays the same...

Any idea what I'm doing wrong ?

[MichaelP]

Look at the properties in MoviePlayer and make sure it is 1920 x 1080. Also look to see that your color settings in import is set to 601/709.

Michael

[filip kovcin]

well, someone who definitely KNOWS how to FAST IMPORT may kindly explain that in STEP BY STEP manner.

it looks to me that in pal countries, despite is it 1920x 1080 or not and 601 or not - that fast import is not at all that fast.
but, maybe i am wrong... maybe i am making some small mistake somewhere... or at least cannot say what is FAST or how fast is fast import. who knows. (in my situation best results with using "fast import" is 3x the original time)

so, please be so kind and share some knowledge here...

btw. for that very reason - which is - very slow "fast import" we are building our own application (which we are testing right now), and results are very promising. the process is separated in two parts. one of them is not realtime, but really, really close and the other one is realtime... he, he... more info soon.

but anyhow - any additional info about "fast import" is welcomed. i.e. with importing times, software and hardware versions etc.

thank you,

filip

[MichaelP]

I'll take a look at PAL. There is an issue we discovered that with REDCINE outputting 1080p files, it mislabels the QT type (VCID) to be 1080i/25. This may be preventing Avid from fast importing it since it sees it as interlace. Try importing the same file in a 1080i/25 project to see if you see the words "fast import" during the import process above the progress bar. That's how you know it is a fast import. If it is fast, open that bin in a 1080p/25 project, ignore the warning, and edit away.

Michael

[filip kovcin]

tested here with no luck...

i do not know where to look. tried back and forth but there is no "fast import" info or at least fast import as import...

maybe i am missing something - maybe there is some "secret" combination of hardware and software needed, and just THAT ONE and only combination works with this "fast import".

Michael, please, be so kind and test that in detail.

i mean, i can work without it since i am making my own software just for that purpose, but just need to solve that "fast import" issue, because it's driving me mad!

i prefer to find or at least know good solutions in my work(flow), but with "fast import" this is not the case. so, if you read this and have enough time to share - please make kind of tutorial in STEP BY STEP manner, i.e. like for 9 years old kid, so everyone will understand (me included). i just cannot find proper way to make that "fast import" work.

thank you,

filip

[MichaelP]

let me know which versions of Media Composer, platform, QT version, etc.

Michael

[filip kovcin]

Michael,

thank you for fast response - i am in position to test in on every version of MC (from 2.6 to the very last one), every platform (pc or mac (xp or vista, mac os 10.4 or 10.5)) and every QT you name.

i can even use certain graphic card if needed. just let me know the right tools to do that properly.

if i personally do not have that "one and only combination" of mentioned software/hardware i can borrow or test it on unit from my friends (editors) or even buy something - just to manage this.
can even go to the local avid re-seller and test all this in his place - just to be sure that all parameters are properly chosen. (i am going nuts because of this "fast import")

that's the only reason i did not send any details about my software/hardware combination. do not want to sound too weird, but i often see info like this:
"well, your hardware/software is not in the proper combination, that's why it is not working"

so, to avoid this i am kindly asking for proper combination of hardware/software (version), graphic card (if important), audio card (if important), OS version or platform (PC/MAC) etc. just to be sure i am doing everything properly. and after i fit everything - i can say - yes it works, or - no it still do not work!

thank you,


filip

[Nils Ruinet]

I'll take a look at PAL. There is an issue we discovered that with REDCINE outputting 1080p files, it mislabels the QT type (VCID) to be 1080i/25. This may be preventing Avid from fast importing it since it sees it as interlace. Try importing the same file in a 1080i/25 project to see if you see the words "fast import" during the import process above the progress bar. That's how you know it is a fast import. If it is fast, open that bin in a 1080p/25 project, ignore the warning, and edit away.

Michael
Thanks Michael,
I'll try that.
(I guess you meant 1080i/50)
That may be the issue, files coming from Redrushes were fast importing fine, the issue was only with Redcine.

[MichaelP]

Yes, 1080i/50 - the naming convention is a whole other cluster**** It used to be:
"resolution/p or i/frame rate" which worked for all formats nicely. Then some camera manufactures got size envy... but that's a whole other story in the annals of marketing.

Michael