Matte Box Woes

[Finner]

So each of our cameras are going to need a matte box and from what I have found this will be one of the toughest accesories to find at a fair price for value. I had hoped the RedRock matte box may have been an okay option but I fear the plastic tab clips on the filter trays that you snap the filters in to look like an accident waiting to happen. Matte boxes have got to be one of the simplier camera accessories to produce so I have a hard time with the big price tag of them.

It has become clear that the RED team is all about listening to their customers and consistently take suggestions and then exceed our expectations with a great product. I am very excited about the RED/View Factor Studios follow focus system (Curt & his brother seem like some very sharp guys). IMO what is really needed is a quality matte box at a fair price.

I am sure that all of you on the RED team have your hands full but I am confident a REDmattebox would be one of your best selling accesories and feel you will sell a lot more if you have one ready shortly after cameras start to be produced in larger numbers. I really hate the idea of having to spend $3,500+ for a matte box that I am sure RED could build and sell for much less. I am hoping that if enough people on this board express their need for a matte box Jim will see it as a good opportunity to continue to build the company and put some of his people or even hire a few more to take on the challenge of building a quality matte box at a red price point. I personally would be very happy to pay $1,000-$2,000 for a good matte box and I can not see how RED would have a hard time putting one out at this price.

RED has an incredible team and the guy I met who was the mind behind the production cage and rails could build a killer matte box (wish I could remember his name). If a bunch of people add to this thread and show how high the need for a matte box is we may be able to sway the RED team in to taking on the challenge to building one.

[Alex Boothby]

I'll second that - I'm sick of hanging around ebay!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Yes, I would love to see a RED mattebox.

The Arri MB19 and MB20 are way overpriced for what they are. Red Rock looks like it's going to be problematic and too cheaply made. I'm probably going with either the Cavision or Vocas mattebox, but will hope for something better. I had the Vocas/Century mattebox for a while (used with HV200 and RedRock M2 adapter) and it was OK. Nowhere near as nice as the Arri or Chrosziel ones, but it was priced right... < $800 at the time.

[IAN SUN]

What he said. (OP)

[Michael Ragen]

I would certainly be into a Red Mattebox. Otherwise I will probably go with an Arri clip-on. A set of Red filters would be nice too... It would only make sense to go from Oakley to a filter set of ND's, grads, and a pola. All in good time I'm sure.

[Justin O'Neill]

Good call Mike. Maybe we can just put a pair of Oakleys in front of the lens if we want a polarizer. ;)

[Brian Broz]

Personally I think the RED team is better off concentrating their efforts on releasing products that have not been available to the masses.
A lower cost 4x5.650 / 5x5 Mattebox would be great, but there are already 5 or 6 manufacturers out there to choose from.
The real question is whether 4x5.650 (commonly known as "Panavision" size) will cover the 18-50mm and 18-85mm zoom without vignetting (138mm Polarizer would be a suggestion for the 360degree rotating rearmost holder).

[Ignas K]

This one is interesting one: http://www.geardear.com/index.html
not expensive at all, might just do the job..
It´s not metal thought, so I don´t know what will be left out of it after, say, 5 years of hard use...

[Priyesh P.]

Hi Finner,

I can only accede. Arri and Chrosziel have nice, really rocksolid stuff, but like you said, 3000+ bucks for a mattebox ?
We need a more affordable one ! ( or two, a production style one and a clip-on mattebox )

Finner, did you mean Matt ? I think he´s the industrial designer at Red.

Priyesh

[CVB]

I am very excited about the RED/View Factor Studios follow focus system (Curt & his brother seem like some very sharp guys). IMO what is really needed is a quality matte box at a fair price.

Aww chucks... thanks Daren. Well, we are up to our ears finishing off the few products that we are making... We might be able to tackle it towards the end of the summer. I look at the Arri mattebox and I see no reason why an equivalent design couldn't be sold for <$500. Maybe Jim will give us a mattebox grant to make it happen sooner :)

BTW, the genius behind the cage design is Matt, aka Mr. serial killer, aka grandpa It Burns.

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Yes, ARRI will be my favorite, you will use it for years. IMO, it is to expensive. Chrosziel is less expensive, not bad, but never this good as ARRI. All the others aren't professional enough for my work. RED matte box? It will be a Matt-Box, so come on Matt, REDteam, design one for us for a good price.

[Finner]

I look at the Arri mattebox and I see no reason why an equivalent design couldn't be sold for <$500. Maybe Jim will give us a mattebox grant to make it happen sooner :)

Thats what I like to hear Curt. I know your "mattebox grant" comment is a little tounge in cheek but I sure hope Jim is reading this. If you guys could have a good multi stage swing out available in 4-6 months I am sure customers would line up. Jim, a RED or RED/View Factor matte box would be a great thing!!!!!!!:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:


BTW, the genius behind the cage design is Matt, aka Mr. serial killer, aka grandpa It Burns.

Ya right Matt. This guys vision, ideas and engineering ability kick ass, definately another great RED employee a lot of us don't hear much about.


RED has proven that they think high quality on everything they do so adding another product to their line up would not cause the camera or other things to suffer. I can only see 2 reasons someone would say RED should not get involved in bringing out a matte box:

1. They have not seen the crazy high price of matte boxes.

or

2. They currently own or have stocks in a company that produces matte boxes and pooped a little in their pants at the idea of RED entering that market.

[Adrian T.]

I was ready to swallow the bitter pill of buying an MB20. But if there's any chance that RED will produce a matte box in the near future, I'm happy to wait for that.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Pleeeease build an affordable matte box Red!

[damonbots]

Well, while we're requesting the cake and the eating privilege too, why not throw in a 4X5 RED filter set for the mattebox? Afterall, I think they have an idea or two about the optics biz.

[Robert Sanders]

We need a matte box, iris rods, follow focus "package" all done REDstyle. That would be amazing in the $1000-1500 range.

[luis bustamante]

I would buy a RED MATTBOX for sure, and filters as well if they ever make them (heck! I would buy RED tripods and heads, cranes, dollies, whatever! I can really feel the passion for good design and quality they put into their products).

I might go with the big vocas if that doesn't materialize though...

[Rick Darge]

Red can you please build me a new car, a new home and a new child?

[damonbots]

RED beer... mmmmmmmmm

[Mike the beginner]

Reminds me of fishing reels those matt boxes!

You can buy a cheap one that will do most jobs well enough amd you can replace it after a few years. Or you can buy one that has been properly designed and very well well made. You don't replace those they will outlive you and give years of pleasure.

I would be prepared to wait till early next year if red would make one that would cover my needs. How many people that have ordered a camera already have a suitable matt box?

quality and design = red input + red value for money

Mike the beginner

[Tonaci Tran]

I look at the Arri mattebox and I see no reason why an equivalent design couldn't be sold for <$500. Maybe Jim will give us a mattebox grant to make it happen sooner :)


I'm lovin the sound of that.

[Andreas Fernbrant]

I know it's not worth much but I'd like to throw in a vote here too.

But then again, I'm sad to say... I'll buy most of what red is selling;)

[Nook Kim]

I'm waiting already.



Nook

[Alexander Black]

The vocas 450 swingout is $4,475.00 - which is only incrementally cheaper than the ARRI.

Which, I think, tells you something. Making a mattebox that is bulletproof and has all the weird features is... expensive and difficult. If your market is small, you have to price high. If your market is large, you can go lower. Obviously we're all seeing prices plummet as these tools become ever so sightly more "mass market".

The petroff I am selling: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=95225

Is WONDERFUL. But it's a little 4x4, won't fit the red lenses and doesn't swing out. And, while it is very cool looking, it won't take a nasty beating like the ARRI will or the vocas.

Of course if red, uhrm, basically copies the features of the vocas/arri swing out and sells it for 1/3 the price well who the hell am I to complain... right?

[luis bustamante]

Red can you please build me a new car, a new home and a new child?

hahaha not a child! that would be too much, i think!

cheers!

[CVB]

I disagree that things cannot be reliable and bulletproof without being expensive. I designed products for a fortune 500 company that sold for about $10K and carried a lifetime warranty... the cost of goods before markup was only $70. Many of these companies charge a fortune for their equipment because they have become bloated corporate entities that can't afford to sell it for anything less. In order to get these products to the market at a decent price you need a company that has low overhead, a great engineering staff, listens to the customers, and thinks about the manufacturing processes that go into the product. Not everything in the movie business needs to be machined out of billet aluminum and magnesium.

[Alex Boothby]

I was looking seriously at the MB-19, but now I think I will hold off and settle for something like the Red Rock for the short term, in the hopes the Red will make a move in the future. Has anyone tried the Cavision 16x9 with swing out?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&kw=CAMB565U3&is=REG&Q=&O=productlist&sku=442112

The price is nice, and it has an impressive features but it seems too heavy at 4.6 lbs. On a very shallow note, it's also quite ugly. A matte box is one of the major features to set the aesthetic of a camera. It would be a shame to spoil Red's sleek curves with something like this. All the more reason why Red or Curt should get into this market. :biggrin:

[CVB]

If we were to look at any matte box on the market to build on, which one would you guys suggest we look at? One other question... (pardon my ignorance) why are filters still being used when it seems like there is so much flexibility in the digital realm to do color correction in post?

[Alexander Nikishin]

One other question... (pardon my ignorance) why are filters still being used when it seems like there is so much flexibility in the digital realm to do color correction in post?

lol are you serious cvb?

Put it this way, no one wants to be shooting at f22 all day.

A set of ND's will allow you to open up your iris and get that shallow depth of field by limiting the amount of light coming in while maintaining proper exposure.

If you handle all your exposure problems by just stopping down on your lens, not only do you limit your dof to a very deep one, but you also miss the "sweet spot" of most lens.

You can't fix dof problems and softness/ distortion in post.

[CVB]

OK, my bad.. You have to excuse me... I'm an engineer first and a cinema junkie second. Got it now.. Thanks Alexander.

[John Allardice]

One other question... (pardon my ignorance) why are filters still being used when it seems like there is so much flexibility in the digital realm to do color correction in post?

The first ones that leap to mind are Polas, to control highlights and NDs, to control exposure...neither of which you can do as effectively in post.

[Brook Willard]

Curt, check out Arri's MB20 with all the trimmings. That's just about my favorite MB ever. I wish it would swing out... but other than that, it's amazing.

[Sproketz]

lol are you serious cvb?


No need for that.

Polarization filters as well.
ND grads.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Hehe, I had no idea you weren't a film maker Curt? Well you're a genius in my books never the less so my apologies if I came across as either arrogant or a royal a hole. :waaa:

[Brook Willard]

I'm gonna bump this to OT now that it's big and popular... but not super RED related.

Curt: make a mattebox. :) If it's anything like your other products I've seen... heheheh

[Alexander Nikishin]

If we were to look at any matte box on the market to build on, which one would you guys suggest we look at?

Arri's MB20 , with a swing away function as well. You'd sell those like hot cakes.

[Poi Boy]

MMMMM I like hot cakes.
-A

[CVB]

me too :)

[Alexander Nikishin]

Seriously though, I couldn't imagine a matte box costing anymore than $100 to manafacture at the most.

The mark up on matte boxes is ridiculously high. I'll give Red Rock's mb a try just based on their outlook on breaking the mold and not charing an arm and a leg.

[Finner]

Seriously though, I couldn't imagine a matte box costing anymore than $100 to manafacture at the most.

The mark up on matte boxes is ridiculously high. I'll give Red Rock's mb a try just based on their outlook on breaking the mold and not charing an arm and a leg.

There is a fair amount that goes into a solid Arri MB. to make the stages spin independently and the whole thing to flip out and have a perfect fit and finish IMO would be more the $100 but definately not anywhere near the big$$ a lot of companies are charging. In the end I am sure we would all rather have Curts MB's cost a little more but be top quality in function fit and finish.

[Tonaci Tran]

Curt.. swing away please.. for all those red prime swapping. =)

[Alexander Nikishin]

Let's start the reservations on Curt's mb, $100 deposits.

[CVB]

lol. Let us get some semblance of a design together first :)

[dewman]

Excellent, thread! Glad to see so many agree on MB pricing. Curt...love the Mirus unit...hope to check one out someday...if VF has the capacity and time; I'd say jump all over the MB "need".

[Alex Boothby]

Dude don't be shy if you need development cash - take reservations and a deposit! I'd put down 50% if you could promise Arri quality at 1/3 the price... only it's got to be ready by August! :biggrin: Alright... October...

Rugged, full feature set and as light as possible. I think that you could sell more of these than mo-co heads, which tend to be speciality items (although much less stimulating to build, I'd imagine.)

[Clayton Harper]

I would buy a viewfactor mattebox. I think the materials need to be on par with the Arri MB20. I have no hopes for the Redrock, their build quality is terrrible.

The full Arri MB20 and follow focus for 19mm rods runs for $11000.

Curt, give me a $3000 mattebox/studio ff combo of similar quality and I will pay in advance.

[CVB]

Well, based off this thread there seems to be a huge demand. I'll see what we can do. Whatever we do it won't be a copy. I hate it when people steal designs without investing anything into making a product better. Do you guys have any recommendations that you would like to see in a new design?

On the subject of the moco heads... I think its a awesome product that you guys would have to experience to appreciate. We will have beta units in a couple months and are going to be sending several units to some rental houses. Sometimes new technologies need to be spread through word of mouth, we have time and plenty of patience to make this happen.

[Shawn Nelson]

Has anyone tried the Cavision 16x9 with swing out?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&kw=CAMB565U3&is=REG&Q=&O=productlist&sku=442112

The price is nice, and it has an impressive features but it seems too heavy at 4.6 lbs. On a very shallow note, it's also quite ugly. A matte box is one of the major features to set the aesthetic of a camera. It would be a shame to spoil Red's sleek curves with something like this.

Uh well...have you actually seen it in person or are you going off the B&H picture? I went by the Cavision booth twice at NAB and was really super impressed with this matte box. I think B&H does a poor job showing it. It looked and felt nearly as good as the Arri one, for a fraction of the price. This particular Cavision matte felt MUCH better than a Chroziel or Petroff matte. All the parts felt solid and I thought the look was very pro. After looking at half a dozen matte box manufacturers I will most likely be putting this one on my Red. I'm not affiliated with them, this matte box just blew me away for anything in the under $2k price tag.

[John Allardice]

Just off the top of my head...
3 stage ( 2 rotating independently)
4 x 5.65 and 4x4 stages
swing away
15mm & 19mm center mounts
Side panels with the rotating extenders (ala Arri & Chrosziel)

..anyone else?...

[John Allardice]

.... This particular Cavision matte felt MUCH better than a Chroziel or Petroff matte. All the parts felt solid and I thought the look was very pro. After looking at half a dozen matte box manufacturers I will most likely be putting this one on my Red. I'm not affiliated with them, this matte box just blew me away for anything in the under $2k price tag.

Yeah, the 4169H 3-stage is particularly impressive, good build quality and under $700 with flags! ( that'll be if you're using Nikons, for Pls go with the MB565-U)

[Shawn Nelson]

Eh, I didn't like that one as much. I meant the 5x5 swingaway matte, it looked and felt more pro.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Just off the top of my head...
3 stage ( 2 rotating independently)
4 x 5.65 and 4x4 stages
swing away
15mm & 19mm center mounts
Side panels with the rotating extenders (ala Arri & Chrosziel)

I vote for all of the above as well. Depending on size and weight considerations, the mount could be interchangeable to allow for either 15mm or 19mm rod mounts with different spacing.

What would be really cool is a modular mattebox system that allows the user to build it up to fit their needs. Interchangeable mounts and filter stages, ability to make it a full 19mm rod mount studio swing-out box with 4 filter stages. ...Or strip it all down to a clip-on with a single rotating filter stage for handheld and steadicam work.

For construction materials, I would like to see carbon fiber, aluminum and titanium, possibly some plastics. But would like to see it as durable as possible and as light as possible.

[Brook Willard]

Hey, cool, apparently the MB-20 does have a swing-away module... (http://www.arri.com/prod/cam/mb-20/MB-20.pdf)

[Finner]

Uh well...have you actually seen it in person or are you going off the B&H picture? I went by the Cavision booth twice at NAB and was really super impressed with this matte box. I think B&H does a poor job showing it. It looked and felt nearly as good as the Arri one, for a fraction of the price. This particular Cavision matte felt MUCH better than a Chroziel or Petroff matte. All the parts felt solid and I thought the look was very pro. After looking at half a dozen matte box manufacturers I will most likely be putting this one on my Red. I'm not affiliated with them, this matte box just blew me away for anything in the under $2k price tag.

I checked this one out at NAB as well Shawn. I found it so-so but no where in the same league as an ARRI or the chroziel. The function of their locks and chunky moving parts was a little weak from what I saw.

If View Factor makes one I would recomend one that take 4x4s, 4x5.6 and 5.6x5.6

[Shawn Nelson]

Finner...I'll give you that it's not an ARRI...but I honestly prefer it to the Chroziel. Can you elaborate more?

On a side note (and I am not accusing you of this Finner), I think there is way too much brand snobbery in filmmaking. Heck yes an ARRI is better, but is it 300% better? I think not. Sure Cavision had some trouble early on, but then people just write them off and dont give them a chance to improve. Guys at the Cavision booth were telling me that ARRI contracts them for some components.

[Greg Voevodsky]

If we were to look at any matte box on the market to build on, which one would you guys suggest we look at? One other question... (pardon my ignorance) why are filters still being used when it seems like there is so much flexibility in the digital realm to do color correction in post?

2 filters - Polarizers are still used - especially around water and windshields to reduce reflections and glare plus improve color saturation. Post production can not reveal fish under water lost to blown out sun glare. ND grads are still very good are darkening the sky and clouds for better exposure in highlights. Post can not save blown out clouds after the fact. Please make filter holders both rotatable and adjustable up and down. 2 stages is fine now with digital.

[Greg Voevodsky]

Just off the top of my head...
3 stage ( 2 rotating independently)
4 x 5.65 and 4x4 stages
swing away
15mm & 19mm center mounts
Side panels with the rotating extenders (ala Arri & Chrosziel)

..anyone else?...

Or 2 stages (rotating independently) for $200 less. :-)
Also, it would be nice if it could handle wider lenses like 15mm if possible.

[Brook Willard]

I'd prefer 4x5.65/5x5 trays and 5.65x5.65/5x6 trays. Might as well go all the way. If Arri can fit all four sizes into one lightweight mattebox... Curt or RED can.

[Priyesh P.]

Like I said - you´ll need two MBs, a studio rig ( multi-stage+rotatable, french flags and barn doors ) and a light weight one ( maybe 1-2 stages, with at least one to rotate and a french flag ).

[martinnoweck]

Let's start the reservations on Curt's mb, $100 deposits.

I second that!

[Alexander Nikishin]

I'd really like a 6x6 tray or two also.

[Ken Willinger]

The full size Vocas Matte box I saw at NAB had a cool feature that allowed a filter to be mounted in the very front section of the box that could be tilted up or down to reflect away a lenser. That was a pretty cool feature. I'd definitely be happy if there was a well made full featured matte box available at a reasonable price. I've owned both Petroff (who currently make a pretty nice modular box...expensive) and currently own a clip on Vocas older 2 stage model. But it is 4X4. Don't look forward to buying all new glass! BTW, the full size Vocas I think could take up to 5 filters with 2 rotating stages and could accomodate 4X4 and up.

[Finner]

Finner...I'll give you that it's not an ARRI...but I honestly prefer it to the Chroziel. Can you elaborate more?

On a side note (and I am not accusing you of this Finner), I think there is way too much brand snobbery in filmmaking. Heck yes an ARRI is better, but is it 300% better? I think not. Sure Cavision had some trouble early on, but then people just write them off and dont give them a chance to improve. Guys at the Cavision booth were telling me that ARRI contracts them for some components.


Hi Shawn. Don't worry about calling me a bit of a film products snob because I am. I worked for too many years with some of the best equipment on the market (all rental) and have come to expect a certian level of quality. The fully decked out Cavision was just under $2,000 US and I see for no reason at that price that the matte box should be perfect and it is not. The tightening knobs were in bad places and fairly cheap (there was a lock off wing nut on the swing out portion to lock the swing out that hit the side of the matte box every time you spun it.). From every matte box I saw at NAB Cavision seemed like they were giving you probably the best value for your money but it still was very expensive for what you get. I am more then happy to pay RED or View Factor 1,500-2,000 for an ARRI fit, finish, function and quality matte box and I see no reason why there would not be a good mark up for them if they sell it at that price. The problem is a lot of these companies are building matte boxes and then having to do a lot of work promoting them and then sell them wholesale to the sales companies that represent them those companies then mark up the price some more for their profit. These are all things RED products don't need to do. All RED products need to be is top quality and they will sell because RED already has a big customer base. Pretty much every RED reserve person will be going to the RED web site when they hear their camera is ready and will visit the RED online store and buy up a bunch of accesories there they feel they need. If at that time a high quality matte box for a reasonable price is offered they would sell a bunch. I would guess that selling 1000 MB units in the first 6 months would not be hard at all. These are #'s Cavision and others would kill to have come that easy. Break down the #'s 1000 units x $1,500 = 1.5 million. Sure after R&D and other costs they won't make a whole lot on the first 100 but I would be very suprisied if there was not a very healthy profit on 1,000 or more. Its all a numbers game and RED has the numbers so any company that can provide the same high quality products RED does and be lucky enough to attatch themselves to RED will do very well.

I am very glad Curt responded to this thread. At NAB you could see him, his brother and partner were all about top cinema quality with all there products. I am confident if they took on the challenge of a matte box we would get a fantastic one. What seems strange to me though is not 1 single response from a RED representitive. I thought by now someone would have some kind of comment on this. I thought maybe Matt would post something but I do not remember him ever posting on here before so maybe he does not visit the site. From all the responses on this so far though it is becoming clear that a MB is near the top of the list for many of us.

[Clayton Harper]

From all the responses on this so far though it is becoming clear that a MB is near the top of the list for many of us.

Let's get a Follow Focus request in there as well.

Red Team, can you loan the Viewfactor Boys an Arri MB20 and Arri Follow Focus for a few days?

Can I make a request for two rotating 4x5 combo trays?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I think RED team members haven't responded, because they have nothing to say at this time. I'm confident that RED will offer a mattebox at some point. Looking at all their accessories they're producing as it is, they're trying to become a full cinema company. They are trying to supply a complete end to end system, so a mattebox is a given, IMO. I just don't know if we will see it this year. I would also like to see RED offer a manual follow focus unit in addition to the RED Motor unit they're developing.

[Finner]

Let's get a Follow Focus request in there as well.

Red Team, can you loan the Viewfactor Boys an Arri MB20 and Arri Follow Focus for a few days?


Did you see the remote FF version View Factor is building in conjunction with RED? The motors look great and the hand set is so modular that you can mount the focus wheel right on the camera rods so it feels like a typical FF. I think this option will work well and cover a lot more uses then just a mechanical FF. Curt told me that they are shooting for "beter then preston quality" and the best news is the handset is planned to be around $1,200 and Curt says we will be very happy with the motor prices. Compare that with all the good remote FF versions comming in at over $30k right now. It would not suprise me if they came out with a mechanical FF in a while but if this remote one works as well as they plan it may not be necessary.

[Jaime Vallés]

I add my vote for a low-cost, feature rich mattebox. This is an item that would be needed by the vast majority of RED shooters. As long as it's a reasonable price with the features of the high-end matteboxes, you would get a lot of orders from the nearly 2000 RED reservations .

[Priyesh P.]

OK, I´d like to transform my request - maybe there´s a way to design a modular mattebox which can be converted from lite ( snap-on ) to studio ( rod-fixed ). Don´t know if possible at all.

[Clayton Harper]

Did you see the remote FF version View Factor is building in conjunction with RED?

I did see it the diagram of the unit on their handout. I hadn't really thought in terms of always using wireless follow focus just because I am conditioned to think in terms of $6000 being the entry point to a usable system. A $2000 remote unit and motor cost changes the game, doesn't it? You can even afford to own a backup unit.

[CVB]

We're in the process of redesigning the remote to make it more ergononic.. we're also making an FF knob that will attach on the mattebox bars and allow you to directly control the RED motor as is if were a regular mechanical FF.

I think we will go ahead with the mattebox. If this thread is any indication of the demand I think there is something there. This will be a welcome relief from the overly complicated stuff that I'm used to making - not that a mattebox doesn't have its own complications.

[Chris Kenny]

I would guess that selling 1000 MB units in the first 6 months would not be hard at all. These are #'s Cavision and others would kill to have come that easy. Break down the #'s 1000 units x $1,500 = 1.5 million. Sure after R&D and other costs they won't make a whole lot on the first 100 but I would be very suprisied if there was not a very healthy profit on 1,000 or more. Its all a numbers game and RED has the numbers so any company that can provide the same high quality products RED does and be lucky enough to attatch themselves to RED will do very well.

Yup. If you look at the current production schedule, it looks like Red is going to be making 1000 cameras per month by the end of the year. That's crazy volume for this sort of market, and I think it's going to change the accessory market a lot.

[Rune Hansen]

I think we will go ahead with the mattebox. If this thread is any indication of the demand I think there is something there. This will be a welcome relief from the overly complicated stuff that I'm used to making - not that a mattebox doesn't have its own complications.

The demand for truly well-made matteboxes is huge. We can pay for this -- in fact we will pay, probably Arri, for it unless there are viable options. I have a Chrosziel swing-away for our VariCam and honestly it's not that great. Arri build quality should be the target. It doesn't have to be quite as modular as the MB20, just solid and well thought out. If it can clip on and be on 19mm rods that would be a huge bonus. Do smart things with the flags, include a cool standardized shipping case to put it all in, all the stuff we always have to figure out on our own.

Just hurry!! Arri's about to get a huge check from me and I'd hate for that to happen...

-rune

[Martin Drew]

Nice one Curt. I do hope you make it over to IBC.

M

[Volker Ehlers]

Hi Curt,

Ex ARRI service technician on stand-by to assist with tips in what the lads usually manage to break, crack, bend or rip. (There should be parts that are cheap to replace - Will think about it more and post it at a later stage)

After hearing you are developing FF - this makes only sense. Create an entire
accessory line - the market is waiting for someone like you guys.

Finner - you seem to be a man to my likings. After 20 odd years in the industry and having to slam a Moviecam body of a Sachtler head with a sledge hammer I know why ARRI builds the way they do. ARRI is big though and takes a long time to adopt input. (The barn doors of lights still fall out when being turned - due to cheap rivet solution - 15 years later)

Hope to see you coming up with good stuff. A cheap mattebox can be a frequent source of trouble :
flaps or masks in frame, repositioning akward to handle, unprecise alignment with outwardly focused lenses barrel etc.

We would love to see you guys succeed. I have to admit that we are looking for TOP Quality and are prepaired to pay for it. Hopefully their will be an alternative to ARRI soon!

All the best
Volker

[Stuart English]

No comments to offer, but we are paying attention to the feedback....

[Ken Willinger]

(The barn doors of lights still fall out when being turned - due to cheap rivet solution - 15 years later)


Man does that drive me crazy! I'm constantly trying to stabilize those rivet points.

[Brook Willard]

No comments to offer, but we are paying attention to the feedback....

Nice...


Man does that drive me crazy! I'm constantly trying to stabilize those rivet points.

I've just given up. If I have to move a light, I just accept that the barn doors will fall off and be moved separately. No company seems to be able to get it right. They either fall off all the time or they're so securely mounted that removing them [or adding scrims] requires tools or a nasty burn.

[Emery Wells]

Just thought Id support this cause with a post...

I too would love a pro Matte Box/ Follow focus from View Factor or RED. Curt, perhaps you should talk to RED behind the scenes so that both of you guys arent developing a Matte Box. Always good to have choices but I think most folks would buy a RED Matte Box if it existed.

[Priyesh P.]

Just thought Id support this cause with a post...

I too would love a pro Matte Box/ Follow focus from View Factor or RED. Curt, perhaps you should talk to RED behind the scenes so that both of you guys arent developing a Matte Box. Always good to have choices but I think most folks would buy a RED Matte Box if it existed.

I think it´ll more of a waste of time and resources. Here we have two great companies which introduce equipments that burst current pricing schemes in film production. If both start competing each other it won´t benefit us in the long term I fear, but reduce features and quality at least over time ( then we´ll be left with redrock & geardear again ) .

[Leo Ticheli]

Sadly, my old Chrosziel Follow Focus is a single wheel, so it's got to go. Same goes for Matte Box; I want to upgrade to a swing-away.

If Red has something by my projected delivery time, October, I'll buy from Red in a heartbeat; if not, I'll have to pony up for something else.

Good shooting and best regards to all,

Leo

[Rocco Schult]

Red can you please build me a new car, a new home and a new child?

you got that one wrong: :bleh:

my house, my boat, my wife :matrix: or

plant a tree, build a house, found a family. :weight_lift:

Ok, forget the slogans, the house and the boat, yeah. :biggrin:

[Rocco Schult]

If this thread is any indication of the demand I think there is something there.

Yes, it is. , )


Let's start the reservations on Curt's mb, $100 deposits.

And yes!

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hi Curt

I own an Arri MB 19 and don't like it. Not rugged enough and too small, I've got it for S16 and there it is ok.

If your company are going to design one please keep in mind that there are not only Red Primes and 17-50 zooms but also large Cooke and Angenieux zooms which also need a proper Mattebox. The only rugged production Mattebox which is not too big, but big enough to cover all lenses I came across yet is the Arri MB 16 which unfortunately I have to buy in case you build a Mattebox like the MB 20. The MB 20 is designed with the 2/3 HD folks in mind and is not usable for grown up 35mm zooms, although it is a nice mattebox.

Follow focus is another thing. There Arri is the benchmark as well. I thought of buying the Arri LLF 1 which is for handheld EFP jobs the perfect beast. Very high quality. And I mus say I second Finner on this: Film gear (as any gear you have to rely on) must be made in the best possible way, quality is key. No film gear snobbism.

Build it and I love to buy it,

Hans

[Clayton Harper]

I came across yet is the Arri MB 16 which unfortunately I have to buy in case you build a Mattebox like the MB 20. The MB 20 is designed with the 2/3 HD folks in mind and is not usable for grown up 35mm zooms, although it is a nice mattebox.

I think if you can afford a fast cine zoom lens the pricing of the mattebox is sort of trivial. :bleh:

[Kevin Lang]

Yes, I would love to see a RED mattebox.

The Arri MB19 and MB20 are way overpriced for what they are. Red Rock looks like it's going to be problematic and too cheaply made. I'm probably going with either the Cavision or Vocas mattebox, but will hope for something better. I had the Vocas/Century mattebox for a while (used with HV200 and RedRock M2 adapter) and it was OK. Nowhere near as nice as the Arri or Chrosziel ones, but it was priced right... < $800 at the time.

Do not get the Cavision! I made that mistake once already the are beyond cheap! The Vocus is nice but it costs as much as the ARRI. Bite the bullet and get the ARRI it is a name every one knows and trusts you cant go wrong!

[Finner]

If your company are going to design one please keep in mind that there are not only Red Primes and 17-50 zooms but also large Cooke and Angenieux zooms which also need a proper Mattebox. The only rugged production Mattebox which is not too big, but big enough to cover all lenses I came across yet is the Arri MB 16 which unfortunately I have to buy in case you build a Mattebox like the MB 20. The MB 20 is designed with the 2/3 HD folks in mind and is not usable for grown up 35mm zooms, although it is a nice mattebox.


Hans You make a great point here. I really see no reason why the design of a matte box cant have the size needed for cine lenses and zooms but also the new features of the 20. If a matte box is indeed built I am sure it will be big enough for the red300 which is not small by any means. So I could see it being the size you are looking for.

[Alex Boothby]

This is a no-brainer. The folks at Red have their hands full at the moment so they subcontract the task to View Factor. Jim, Matt and co. consult on design and ensure Red-calibre quality, and Curt blows them away with his engineering genius. Build the best damn matte box possible at the $1500-$2000 price point and get it out there by August-September. Split the winnings. Share the credit. It works for View Factor because - alas - more people would be inclined to buy a Red branded matte box (one stop shopping, comfort and snobbery all playing a factor). And Red would do well by offering a complete camera package at a time when everyone is looking, and many (most) of us are buying - not 6 or 12 months later.

I think the important issue is timing. I myself (being paranoid and a bit dumb) began seriously shopping for PL mount lenses about six months ago because:
A.) I wasn't hearing anything concrete from Red
B.) I needed lenses the minute my Red arrived (duh!)
C.) I'm a bit dumb (already said that)....and...
D.) I was nervous that the used PL mount market would explode (which it has). In January I found a great deal for a quality Zeiss super speed and scooped it up. Now, due to recent NAB announcements, I am looking at getting the Red 18-50 zoom as well as the prime set. So the way it has worked out, I will have 25mm covered on THREE separate lenses. I may have no looks, brains or talent, but I can cover medium-wides like no-bodies business! :blush:

I know this analogy is silly but I think it reflects the mental state of many 'getting into Red'. We want to start shooting when it arrives - as a complete, no-compromise package. The first year in the field is going to be the litmus test for Red's acceptance by snobby crews and nay-sayers in the industry. Does Red really want us shooting with crappy, temporary, plastic accessories while we wait for them to make an announcement and/or save for something of quality? Or do they want us spending all our available cash on Arri accessories, leaving little left for LCDs, EVFs, flash, cages and all the other lovely crimson swag.

For the love of God - all I'm doing is making a sincere and heart-felt appeal to your sense of greed. IS THAT SO WRONG?

So ya - Red talk to View Factor. View Factor talk to Red. Make it work. I promise I'll only take 5% for brokering the deal! :whistling:

P.S - the same logic (some call it genius) applies to follow focus
P.P.S - sorry about the caffeine.

[Alex Boothby]

I'm annoyed that this deal hasn't gone through yet. It's been half an hour and no announcements, no internet buzz - nothing. The people are waiting!

Please don't doubt my match-making powers. My ex-girlfriend married one of my best friends - and now they're making beautiful babies together. And those babies may grow up to do great things - like steal other people's girlfriends... That's how dedicated I am to the art of the hook-up.

Jim... Curt... you really have no choice in this matter. It's in the stars. I have foreseen it. Search your feelings... you know it to be true. Together you can destroy the MB-20 and rule the galaxy togeth..... oh never mind....

[CVB]

lol. I'll see what I can do. I'm renting an Arri MB20 tomorrow and over the weekend, I'll have something started by Monday.

[Alex Boothby]

There ya go! Where do I send my down-payment?

[Rocco Schult]

we are waiting. account number please.

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

Ha ha a....brilliant, Boothba.

See whats happening when a market goes from "rent" to "own"?

Jochen (Credit Card ready)

[dalemccready]

hahaha not a child! that would be too much, i think!

cheers!

That Red child better not be a ging'a or I'll be wanting my "deposit" back

:bleh:

[Clayton Harper]

lol. I'll see what I can do. I'm renting an Arri MB20 tomorrow and over the weekend, I'll have something started by Monday.

WU-TANG!

[Clint Johnson]

RED beer... mmmmmmmmm

Just found this thread... and I couldn't help snapping this pic since the beer was sitting right there in the fridge.

http://www.clint-johnson.com/images/Article_illustration/red/red-beer.jpg

[Emery Wells]

Ya know this was a market I researched a few years back...

Its been ripe for the takin for quite a while now. Whenever you have a specialized market that sells low quantity, you generally have to deal with astronomical prices.

Matte Boxes have their engineering challenges, sure... but lets be real people, its a friggin box with some flaps and slots to slide in filters. The entire camera accessory market is ripe for a companies like Curts and Red to come in and steal it away. The reason its finally going to happen now is because we have this insane camera acting as a catalyst.

It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out how RED can sell their stuff so much cheaper. Instead of selling 150 F-950's at $120,000/pop (which equals 18 million) they'll sell several thousand. Sure there are a few thousand reservations now (something like 2,000) but the damn camera hasnt even shipped yet. I project RED selling several thousand units over the next year. Lets be very conservative and say 3,000 units. Lets say the average customer spends 25,000... well thats 75 million dollars. These are obviously extremely rough numbers and I seem to have gone off topic here but my point is we will now see those same economies of scale applied to the accessories market as well. The Matte Boxes and Follow Focus are two of the most overprices camera accessories on the market.

I look forward to Monday Curt, keep us informed!

[Andrew Benz]

Great thread! Thank you for posting Finner.

Curt, please put me down for your matte box system as well. I am ready to give you a deposit if and when you decide to do so. I agree with many here-- no matter how I tried to slice it, I always came back to the Arri mb-20. I am very glad that you are on it!

Now, I have a request. At some point please take a look at the P+S Technik SKATER Mini. I understand the patent issues and the serious redesign, but this tool would be an amazing extension to one's craft. I will be renting a SKATER Mini soon and I will have a toolmaker/machinists "look" at it so I can have something very similar, but most likely not quite the same. My brother, the machinist, can tell me what we can and cannot build (many variables like tools available, # of man hours,etc. like I said- I do not know-not my field- ). At least it will be another opportunity for me to learn. But, I think you and your brothers could do something quite special and bulletproof.

[Brook Willard]

I have an MB20 in my possession for the next few days/weeks depending on how it works out. It's a fairly specific set up for a Varicam on 15/60s, but if anybody has any questions or wants any specific pictures... just ask.

[CVB]

OK, I now have a MB20 in my possession.:devil:

Andrew... the Skater is a cool little piece of gadget. Don't forget about the RED motors... there is the possibility of building a rig around those to get alot of the shots that the Skater can do. I'm not sure what patents they have but there are always ways to get similar functionality without infringing on anything.

[John Allardice]

I have an MB20 in my possession for the next few days/weeks depending on how it works out. It's a fairly specific set up for a Varicam on 15/60s, but if anybody has any questions or wants any specific pictures... just ask.

Okay...first disassemble it into its component parts, than place each part carefully on graph paper, place that on an animation stand and photograph it, we than take those shots, pull 'em into Coreldraw and autotrace to form eps's ,then we get out the laser cutter....


and yes, I am kidding.

[CVB]

I wish life was that simple ;)

[Volker Ehlers]

Hi Curt,

As promised earlier here a couple of tips on making something as solid as ARRI MB's but user friendlier/ easier to maintain:

- the thingis that the flaps are screwed onto are usually directly cast from the main frame of the MB's - its the first thing to brake if you have a full set of flaps on and dogde into something (or something like an actor or sparky dodges into your MB). Its a mean one cause the whole frame has to be replaced.

- All screws that arrest circulating parts/ trays should have a "not falling off" design. Don't know how to express that properly - meaning you can replace them - but they don't just fall off after being carted around in a camera truck for some time.(Due to vibration - happens all the time)

- Light housing needs to be cheap/ easy to change to wide angle housing - they also crack when getting pressured.

- Generally all MB's compatible for 15mm/ 19mm rods if size allows .
(By the way the big MB that HANS the german (hello!) was referring to is MB 14 (MB 16 was issued with the SR III in early 90)

- Less concern with 6 filterstages ( really bit dated film stuff and hardly used to my knowledge (?)- maybe an add on - ok) but rather wide range of Filter formats and trays that can be used for many of them.

- All swing away arms with concentric axes to adjust precise fitting to lenses.

- Secure release on filter trays - have managed to get caught in them and 380$ Tiffen are on the floor.(maybe added insurance policy against stupidity as well

- Enough lee way to adjust spacing between brackets that hold the MB, the swing away and the back element for lenses (donats etc) because of different lens designs and the need to get a FF onto the rods at postion of Focus gear on lens. Some Primes are rather short and it would be nice not to have to change MB because of short lens or long lens (independent of diameter of lens)

- Compatible filter tray dimensions to other manufactors (Not like Chrosziel and ARRI) - Also big enough for nice treats like SCHULZ spray off micro tray!

- lots of love for detail, passion for movies and patience for weird ACs and techs!

Hope this helps
Best of Luck
Volker

[Dan Blanchett]

Curt, I am stoked you are taking on this project! These are pretty cool times we live in when a person or company can just say "Oh, ok, I'll build that, how do ya want it?" like they were making you an omelette--and then actually doing it. I just hope you can do it by October... :biggrin:

[shaftbond]

i'm not a fan of useless posts, but i just wanted to say i have been watching this thread since it's start and would buy a arri-quality viewfactor matte box in a heartbeat. i think for everyone that has commented in here, there are many more waiting in the wings that are excited about this.

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

i think for everyone that has commented in here, there are many more waiting in the wings that are excited about this.

Yeah, I see the wings seem to be pretty crowded.

:-)

Jochen

[ericyoung]

...
- the thingis that the flaps are screwed onto are usually directly cast from the main frame of the MB's - its the first thing to brake if you have a full set of flaps on and dogde into something (or something like an actor or sparky dodges into your MB). Its a mean one cause the whole frame has to be replaced...

Make this the ultimate MODULAR mattebox. Start off cheap and cheerful attach straight to the lens with Nikon/EOS lenses and upgrade as you like to the mothership of matteboxes coping with the widest front element lenses. Make it so that even with a full set of French flags, sidewings, you can still fold them flat to the front when transporting the camera around. Make French flag foldable in half like some Chrosziels - saves space and bent French flags!


...
- All screws that arrest circulating parts/ trays should have a "not falling off" design. Don't know how to express that properly - meaning you can replace them - but they don't just fall off after being carted around in a camera truck for some time.(Due to vibration - happens all the time) ...

Don't use countersunk screws. Use nylok nuts, or the releasable type of "Loctite" threadlock fluid with slotted/Allen key cheesehead bolts. Less prone to head stripping or working loose with vibration.


...
- Light housing needs to be cheap/ easy to change to wide angle housing - they also crack when getting pressured. ...

Use a flexible non-brittle plastic for the housing, but don't rely on it for mechanical strength or precision alignment. Ie there are other minimalist metal components that fix mounting points precisely. The plastic then just becomes lightproof cladding. Replaceable and hopefully cheaper.


...
- Generally all MB's compatible for 15mm/ 19mm rods if size allows .
(By the way the big MB that HANS the german (hello!) was referring to is MB 14 (MB 16 was issued with the SR III in early 90) ...

A multipurpose 15mm/19mm rod support system with lots of vertical height adjustment and someway of coping with the different standard widths between the rods.


...
- Less concern with 6 filterstages ( really bit dated film stuff and hardly used to my knowledge (?)- maybe an add on - ok) but rather wide range of Filter formats and trays that can be used for many of them. ...

Modular approach allows any number of filterstages, although 6 is probably the maximum useable number! Each stage can be fixed or rotating (rotating being more expensive of course!)


...
- All swing away arms with concentric axes to adjust precise fitting to lenses.

- Secure release on filter trays - have managed to get caught in them and 380$ Tiffen are on the floor.(maybe added insurance policy against stupidity as well

- Enough lee way to adjust spacing between brackets that hold the MB, the swing away and the back element for lenses (donats etc) because of different lens designs and the need to get a FF onto the rods at postion of Focus gear on lens. Some Primes are rather short and it would be nice not to have to change MB because of short lens or long lens (independent of diameter of lens)

- Compatible filter tray dimensions to other manufactors (Not like Chrosziel and ARRI) - Also big enough for nice treats like SCHULZ spray off micro tray!

- lots of love for detail, passion for movies and patience for weird ACs and techs! ...

No further suggestions for these!

Great ideas Volker! :biggrin:

[CVB]

Thanks for the input guys. I've completed my dissection of the MB20... I'm fairly certain I know every nut and bolt in the assembly. So far I have counted 60 custom parts in just the front section alone... that doesn't include the dozens of screws. After looking through it I noticed a number of opportunities to make a better design - I'm only going to use this model as reference for spacings and general size of components and now I have a model to give you guys as size comparison when my design is finished. I will start a fresh design tonight and hopefully I can get all your feedback on the design direction.

I also have a couple other mateboxes here on my desk. Have you guys ever used a Vocas MB-450? Its got a nifty swing out feature but it seems overly complicated.

[Dan Blanchett]

Curt, check out Arri's MB20 with all the trimmings. That's just about my favorite MB ever. I wish it would swing out... but other than that, it's amazing.

Doesn't this model have a Swing Away module?




I will start a fresh design tonight and hopefully I can get all your feedback on the design direction.

Awesome news, Curt. I look forward to it.

[CVB]

Yup, it has a swing away. Haven't modeled it yet.

[Brook Willard]

When you're modeling/designing your MB, be sure to keep the key features of the Arri swing-away:

Swing-away without a 90˚ stop.
The two screws that adjust small angles of the MB, counteracting sag.
The in/out [on axis of lens] screw adjustment with cam lock.
The vertical adjustment of the MB [perhaps there's a more elegant toolless solution for this one...].

You rock, man...

[istvanttt]

We indie-filmmaker often have to steal a shot (no permission for some locations), we need to be fast and flexible, keep us in mind during design.

[Brook Willard]

Stealing shots or not, everything always has to be fast and flexible. Though with due respect, I'd rather have a full-featured mattebox that does everything I'll ever need in a fast and effective manner rather than a guerilla does-the-bare-minimum-fast-and-cheap mattebox. I think the goal should be legitimate production. :)

[roryhinds]

where do we sign up. I'll put money down on a reservation for the Remote FF and Mattebox as I need these for when my RED arrives, which is hopefully soon :-)

[istvanttt]

Well Mr. Brook, you are the moderator and you can remind me on legality. If the term "..steeling the shot.." irritated you then I can only appologize. Nevertheless most of the RED buyers are Indie-Filmmaker and I haven't yet met a Indie-Filmmmaker who didn't had once in a time the problem of getting quickly out of the location.

This doesn't mean a "..guerilla....bare-minimum-fast-and-cheap matteb..." but a request for a higher flexibility in using the tool then what is in the market today. Actually I think the image of a situation where you need to get quickly in and out of the scene invites to think about tools which are more resistent and done by better (and also more expensive) materials then those where you have all the time and comfort to fix with clips and screws all the parts together.

[Priyesh P.]

Well Mr. Brook, you are the moderator and you can remind me on legality. If the term "..steeling the shot.." irritated you then I can only appologize. Nevertheless most of the RED buyers are Indie-Filmmaker and I haven't yet met a Indie-Filmmmaker who didn't had once in a time the problem of getting quickly out of the location.

This doesn't mean a "..guerilla....bare-minimum-fast-and-cheap matteb..." but a request for a higher flexibility in using the tool then what is in the market today. Actually I think the image of a situation where you need to get quickly in and out of the scene invites to think about tools which are more resistent and done by better (and also more expensive) materials then those where you have all the time and comfort to fix with clips and screws all the parts together.

I think the Mattebox was one of the least problems when I was in such situations, mainly it was the camera itself that needed too much time for setup ( measuring and setting aperture & focus and then hope enough film stock is left in the mag ).

[Brook Willard]

Well Mr. Brook, you are the moderator and you can remind me on legality. If the term "..steeling the shot.." irritated you then I can only appologize. Nevertheless most of the RED buyers are Indie-Filmmaker and I haven't yet met a Indie-Filmmmaker who didn't had once in a time the problem of getting quickly out of the location.

Oh no! You definitely misunderstood me, apologies if it seemed like an attack. Trust me, I've stolen many a shot... that didn't bother me at all! My point was that when I'm in a situation when I need to steal a shot, I like having a minimal package that works fast and low-key. When I have a location or I'm in a studio, I like a package with all the trimmings and features. I just didn't want to lose anything from the potential package to make it easier on guerilla locations. :)

[Finner]

This doesn't mean a "..guerilla....bare-minimum-fast-and-cheap matteb..." but a request for a higher flexibility in using the tool then what is in the market today. Actually I think the image of a situation where you need to get quickly in and out of the scene invites to think about tools which are more resistent and done by better (and also more expensive) materials then those where you have all the time and comfort to fix with clips and screws all the parts together.

I don't quite understand this request. A more flexable a matte box is the more clips and screws it will have. So your request for more flexability will be accompanied with more clips and screws. Also the length of time it takes for a focus puller to set up a matte box or complete camera system has much much more to do with there experience then the equipment. One of my main focus pullers I use has been doing it for over 25 years, he never rushes and even though he looks like he is moving slow at times he is so fluent and smooth that he can reconfigure the camera faster then anyone else I use.

[istvanttt]

Oh no! You definitely misunderstood me, apologies if it seemed like an attack. Trust me, I've stolen many a shot... that didn't bother me at all! My point was that when I'm in a situation when I need to steal a shot, I like having a minimal package that works fast and low-key. When I have a location or I'm in a studio, I like a package with all the trimmings and features. I just didn't want to lose anything from the potential package to make it easier on guerilla locations. :)

I'm sorry, I indeed missunderstood!

Beside this I totally agree with all the last comments, indeed the MB is probably the lasty of the problems, like flexibility means also having modularity in using the tool, so I was not really clear when I said I don't want screws around. Probably the two neads are just not possible to marry and I should not have distracted the development of ideas. I agree that we are going to get a new culture in the use of this tools and it is necessary to keep the requests to the engeneers focused on what is needed first. So just lets put the "guerilla" idea aside:))

[CVB]

OK, so I was going to post some first renderings of the mattebox on Monday but got tied up. I finally had an opportunity to take a look at some of the higher end MB's at a couple rental places and I think I'll have something up by the end of the week.

[Alex Boothby]

Sounds great Curt.

[martinnoweck]

Hi Curt,

take the time you need to design the killer matte box!

Martin

[Priyesh P.]

Anyway, I wonder how damn fast you´re working. Looking forward for the results!

[CVB]

I spend about 19-20 hrs/day on this stuff recently... so basically I have three work days in one :)

[Sam Druckerman]

Hi Curt,

I know things take time, and everyone want's your MB to be the best it can be, my self included.

But consider this, I'm expecting #81 and will be completely outfitting my package at or near the time of delivery.

And I don't think I'm alone, there's going to be hundreds of early adapters like myself forced to purchase the best valued gear that's available when there Red #'s come up.

With so many decisions to be made in regards to outfitting the red, I can't help but hope that you MB is the design/quality/price to performance solution to complement the Red One this industry so badly needs.

If you can get your MB out sooner without making any sacrifices in design or quality..... I know you'll be rewarded with that many more sales.

There are many like myself who seldom post, that are rooting for you.

Best of luck.

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

LOL, no pressure.......
except,.......are you finished yet?

[Stephen Gentle]

Sounds like a great mattebox - The render looked awesome too.

If this costs as much (or less) than the Red Rock mattebox, I'm sure that you'll have a winner, and steal a lot of their sales too!

Best of luck from me too, and I can't wait for some more info!

[Priyesh P.]

Stephen, I think you´ve mistaken something. The image Curt posted was one of Arri´s MB 20. He wants to post his own design at the end of this week.

Priyesh

[Finner]

Sounds like a great mattebox - The render looked awesome too.

If this costs as much (or less) than the Red Rock mattebox, I'm sure that you'll have a winner, and steal a lot of their sales too!

Best of luck from me too, and I can't wait for some more info!

I can see there being very little chance that Curts MB will be the same or cheaper then the Red Rock one. This said the Red Rock one has a lot of problems. It has very little in the way of features I would be worried about the way the filter trays hold filters in place and expect many to fall out and break and could see this MB only lasting 2-3 years. Curt has a keen eye for detail and everything he has shown of his work so far displays equal quality to the big name companies. I see a Veiw Factor MB lasting for life and being a piece of gear that can be trusted on set. Go ahead and buy the Red Rock one if you are not worried about some part failing and items falling on an actor as unfortunately from what I saw of the Red Rock at NAB this is a total possibility.

[Chris Gearhart]

LOL, no pressure.......
except,.......are you finished yet?

Hee hee. Got a chuckle out of that.

Just chiming in, here, Curt. I'll buy two in a heartbeat. (Of course mine has been routinely skipping beats this past month. Your decision/announcement was one of those times. Kindof an e-goose, you might say. :blink: )

[Adam Jeal]

Hi Curt,

I'm really interested in your mattebox, as the only other one i've found that's suitable is the Arri MB-20 and that's way too expensive.

will your design have the following?;

2 rotating filter stages

16.9 mask (1.85 & 2.35 masks would also be useful)

Top Flag

Side Flags

Swing-away bracket

Support for 19mm bars


Many Thanks

Adam

[C.H.Haskell]

Curt!
Good luck!
I second the swing away, it just seems to go along with the rest of the RED design.
Looking forward to see what you have in store.

Best

[Dreamcine]

Me want Matte Box!

Love, Grog

[IAN SUN]

deposit is waiting!

[IAN SUN]

Hey Curt after you have this MB thing handled, your next target could be tripods. Even if it is just sticks sans head.

[CVB]

man you guys are really killing my social life :) We already have the head... moco baby.

[John Allardice]

My credit card is waiting.....

[Michael Schrengohst]

man you guys are really killing my social life :) We already have the head... moco baby.

I got my deposit in for that...

After you are done with the Matte Box
a nice Follow focus unit would be nice!

[Alexander Black]

Curt is already in the design process for teh pimp remote FF. (I'm not kidding). So, it sort of makes sense.

Curt: you should just be the official bulletproof-yet-reasonably-priced accessory supplier to all the redheads here.

;)

[Finner]

OK, so I was going to post some first renderings of the mattebox on Monday but got tied up. I finally had an opportunity to take a look at some of the higher end MB's at a couple rental places and I think I'll have something up by the end of the week.

Hey Curt

So is Friday the end of your work week? Any renderings yet?

[CVB]

Hehe.. Actually Sunday is technically the end of my work week. I'm trying to finalize our FF remote as well as this matte box so patience :) I'm about 1/3 to 1/2 of the way there and will have renderings up shortly.

[Finner]

Cool,

I figured your hands were pretty full. You know the # if ya need anything.

[CVB]

Thanks for the moral support. This is gonna be one crazy month.

[Clayton Harper]

Hehe.. Actually Sunday is technically the end of my work week. I'm trying to finalize our FF remote as well as this matte box so patience :) I'm about 1/3 to 1/2 of the way there and will have renderings up shortly.

Don't forget to fly that FF design out here for feedback. :innocent:

[CVB]

I'll get right on that Clay ;)

[chuck colburn]

Hey CVB.

Seeing as you have all this free time to design a new mattebox and follow focus...lol. I think a usefull feature would be if one were able to tilt the FF knob up and down. This would be handy when using a HiHat for low angle shots and also for when the camera is higher than eye level. This would not entail to much radical engineering, as you could have the knob assembly rotate on axis by using bevel or worm gears. Just a thought.

Chuck

[Ken Willinger]

Hey CVB.
I think a usefull feature would be if one were able to tilt the FF knob up and down. Chuck

Nice idea!

[Priyesh P.]

Hey CVB.

Seeing as you have all this free time to design a new mattebox and follow focus...lol. I think a usefull feature would be if one were able to tilt the FF knob up and down. This would be handy when using a HiHat for low angle shots and also for when the camera is higher than eye level. This would not entail to much radical engineering, as you could have the knob assembly rotate on axis by using bevel or worm gears. Just a thought.

Chuck

I think it won´t be needed. The ff knob is not mechanically attached to anything, so it should be easy to screw to it anywhere and into any direction.

[chuck colburn]

I think it won´t be needed. The ff knob is not mechanically attached to anything, so it should be easy to screw to it anywhere and into any direction.

kalone,

If it's not attached to anything thing, how is it turning the gears that are turning the lens?

Chuck

[Priyesh P.]

I meant, that the focus knob that Curt mentioned is an electronic device that connects to the Red motors via cable, and so is not a traditional, mechanical follow focus system.

[CVB]

Yes, the focus knob were are thinking about would be a digital input to the RED motor. The motors have a few analog inputs so we're going to make it so you can run 5v through a pot and have the motor travel full range based off the voltage that it sees. The other inputs may be used to control the electronic gearing... 1:1, 1:2, 1:4 etc.

I have a quick question on the matte box front... I was thinking about putting a spring&damper on the hinge axis of the box so when you pull the release pin it will rotate out and stay put. Would that be a valuable feature or a pain?

[Brook Willard]

So pulling the pin would cause the MB to swing away on its own? That wouldn't bother me...

I'd like it to be able to swing past 90˚, though. A friction stop at 90˚ wouldn't be a bad idea as long as it can freely swing [and stop] about 30˚ in either direction from that point. So its range of stoppable position [where that spring damper doesn't interfere] would be 60˚-120˚.

Or something. :)

Hold on, I have an MB20 right behind me. I'll pop it on a camera and put a little video together describing what I'd love.

[Priyesh P.]

Do you mean the swing-away mechanism for the whole mattebox or individual components like french and side flags ?

In my case, I´d like that functionality for any of the above components, it saves time, hassle and possibly be single-handedly-operatable.

To add to the Red motors, there´s so much functionality in them it´s hard to believe that they can be equal or cheaper to i.e. Palomar`s M-one.

[CVB]

So pulling the pin would cause the MB to swing away on its own? That wouldn't bother me...

I'd like it to be able to swing past 90˚, though. A friction stop at 90˚ wouldn't be a bad idea as long as it can freely swing [and stop] about 30˚ in either direction from that point. So its range of stoppable position [where that spring damper doesn't interfere] would be 60˚-120˚.

Or something. :)

Hold on, I have an MB20 right behind me. I'll pop it on a camera and put a little video together describing what I'd love.
OK.


Do you mean the swing-away mechanism for the whole mattebox or individual components like french and side flags ?

In my case, I´d like that functionality for any of the above components, it saves time, hassle and possibly be single-handedly-operatable.

To add to the Red motors, there´s so much functionality in them it´s hard to believe that they can be equal or cheaper to i.e. Palomar`s M-one.
I was referring to the swing away mechanism. I'd have to dig a little deeper to make it happen on the flags. It would mainly be to keep the unit from shutting on you when you don't want it to.. ie wind, gravity etc.

With regards to the motors... the palomar M-1 is $2100 right? Can't say what its gonna cost but it shouldn't be that much... you'll have to wait for Red to post the price.

[Alexander Nikishin]

I have a quick question on the matte box front... I was thinking about putting a spring&damper on the hinge axis of the box so when you pull the release pin it will rotate out and stay put. Would that be a valuable feature or a pain?

The only problem I see with a spring & damper would be that at times, say in a tight space such as the inside of a car, you may not want the mattebox to swing out the full 45* or even 30*. It may nail the window, push up against something you don't want it to....

On the other hand, it is a neat feature which makes working in open enviorments smooth, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort really.

[Priyesh P.]

I was referring to the swing away mechanism.
Sounds Great.
I was asking for some quick release/lock on the french flag because I frequently close it between breaks it to protect the lens.

Yes, price for palomar is right. If Red´s motors come in for less it´s going to be a very, very strong contender on the market - but that´s not new news.

[CVB]

The only problem I see with a spring & damper would be that at times, say in a tight space such as the inside of a car, you may not want the mattebox to swing out the full 45* or even 30*. It may nail the window, push up against something you don't want it to....

On the other hand, it is a neat feature which makes working in open enviorments smooth, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort really.

I was talking to Daren (Finner) and he had the same comment about the tight spaces... It would be a spring-damper so basically think BMW type smooth movement, it would open slowly and then hold position. I wonder if it would be better to have a several detents that would hold it in different positions.. then you can just hold the release pin down and skip the detents that you don't want to use. BTW, the release system is a little different on this mattebox, you press a button on the smart side to swing the front away, should be a little easier to open than the MB20. It will be protected from accidental opening as well.

[Brook Willard]

The funny thing is that after starting to fiddle with the mattebox... I might prefer no spring at all. Or if there's a spring, it's an absolute must that the MB can swing more than 90 degrees. I'm compressing the video now, it'll be up in a few. I also put a few other things that bother me about the mattebox in there.

[CVB]

Cool, looking forward to it.

[Brook Willard]

Ok, here (http://homepage.mac.com/brookwillard/mb20.mov) it is. The audio's a little rough... and my phone rings in the middle of it... but you get the picture.

If anybody else wants me to demonstrate something else on the MB [or if they want to see something I didn't show], I have it for a few more hours.

[CVB]

Nice.. thanks for the walk through Brook. I had the same gripes after 5 minutes of playing with the MB-20 that I had. I'm gonna remedy all those issues. The last one that you were talking about regarding the positioning of the thumbscrews on the bellows adapter is easily fixed... can't you just loosen the red knob and rotate the whole rear assembly 90 degrees CCW? Maybe I'm confused.

[Brook Willard]

You know, after I got back into my place and uploaded the video... the same thing crossed my mind. It is possible... I just didn't set it up right. :)

Doesn't change the fact that I hate those screws... heheh

[CVB]

Happens to the best of us :)

[Brook Willard]

Makes the rest of my video look so credible... ;)

[chuck colburn]

Hi CVB and kalone.
Ooops, my bad . I should read the posts a little bit closer. Didn't see it was an electric follow focus.

[chuck colburn]

I was talking to Daren (Finner) and he had the same comment about the tight spaces... It would be a spring-damper so basically think BMW type smooth movement, it would open slowly and then hold position. I wonder if it would be better to have a several detents that would hold it in different positions.. then you can just hold the release pin down and skip the detents that you don't want to use. BTW, the release system is a little different on this mattebox, you press a button on the smart side to swing the front away, should be a little easier to open than the MB20. It will be protected from accidental opening as well.

Hi CVB,

I seem to remember a swingaway that had a arc shaped bit of metal that the spring loaded plunger that locked the mattebox in place could locate onto at different degrees of swing. I'll poke arounf and see if I can find a photo.

Chuck

[CVB]

Cool thx. BTW.. you'd be 100% correct if the FF was mechanical.. thats a great idea.

[chuck colburn]

Thanks Tim Le

[CVB]

Tim... OK, noted. I'm thinking I'm going to just go with multiple detents with the plunger. The dampers I've used in the past are plastic and I haven't been able to dig up any metal ones... I hate plastic. Hold off on nixing the smart side release idea until you see it.. I think its much easier to use and will speed up lens changes - no linkages are involved. If everyone hates it then its easy enough to put it on the same side as the Arri.

[Finner]

Ok, here (http://homepage.mac.com/brookwillard/mb20.mov) it is. The audio's a little rough... and my phone rings in the middle of it... but you get the picture.

If anybody else wants me to demonstrate something else on the MB [or if they want to see something I didn't show], I have it for a few more hours.

Brook you did a nice consise job of this video. Hit some good points. I have thought about it for a bit and I agree that a spring would be more of a pain then a benifit. The ability to stop the swing of the matte box at any point is far more important then having a sweet dampening spring system. I think what may work well is you press in the swing out release button and the swing has a little friction just like what you show in the video until it gets to 90 degree's. At the 90 degree point I recomend that it locks solid into place at which point you can then press the release button to close it or press the release button and swing it a further 90 degree's so it opens the full 180 degree range. Durring the swing from 90 degree's to 180 degree's it should again have a little friction until it hits the 180 degree point where it would again lock. From this point you would just hold in the button as you swing it closed past the 90 degree lock. Seems to me like this would be the most functional swing system. This would be good as a person usually mounts a lense and does work from the camera smart side and only needs to open the matte box to the 90 degree point (I would say this would be 95% of the time or more). In the odd situation where you would want to open the matte box to the 180 degree point this system would give you this option. The most important factor to this system is that you can push the release button and swing open/closed the matte box all with one hand. I do not see this being too tough to design though.

[Brook Willard]

The beauty of the friction design is that the MB won't swing freely if a lens is being changed when the camera isn't level. On older MBs I've worked with, changing the lens when the camera isn't level sucks... because the MB flies open and just swings there while you're working on it. You just can't get it out of the way.

Enough friction on the swing-away would allow for the MB to be "parked" wherever it needs to be to change the lens.

I like your idea of a lock at 90 degrees, as long as it can be released to travel further.

Curt, I'd love to see this smart-side release you're referring to. If/when you feel ready to make it public, post it! Or send it to me privately... :devil:

[chuck colburn]

Hello Finner,

If you swung the mattebox 180 degrees wouldn't end up being where it was before just backwards? Or am I missing something here?

Chuck

[Brook Willard]

Chuck, if you watch my video you'll see it swing 180 degrees away. It's the position when it's as far away as I can swing it.

[Alexander Nikishin]

CVB, what are you thinking of as far as materials go for the mattebox? Carbon fiber flags are always a nice touch.

[chuck colburn]

Chuck, if you watch my video you'll see it swing 180 degrees away. It's the position when it's as far away as I can swing it.

Well duh! I knew that. lol
And I use to build what? I need to get out more.

Thanks Brook

Chuck

[Finner]

Tim... OK, noted. I'm thinking I'm going to just go with multiple detents with the plunger. The dampers I've used in the past are plastic and I haven't been able to dig up any metal ones... I hate plastic. Hold off on nixing the smart side release idea until you see it.. I think its much easier to use and will speed up lens changes - no linkages are involved. If everyone hates it then its easy enough to put it on the same side as the Arri.

Curt I think your idea of a smart side release button being very good, it just makes sense. You will probably get a little resistance to it at first because it is different then any other MB out right now but after users opened it 5-6 times they would get use to it and IMO find it much more convenient. I can see it working very well and it becoming the perferred release button. It's not the user "Norm" though, which is actually nice. Different for being different sakes makes no sense but when a person can see a more functional option like your smart side swing button release its cool to see. It's great to see companies shaking up the "closed minded, uncreative mentality" of many camera/camera support companies out right now.

As for anyone being worried about linkage or too many moving parts causing problems situation, don't worry. I took some close looks at View Factors products and Curt designs well thought out simple high quality engineered solutions on his products. If Curt says he can design A non-problematic smart side release button it will be good. I am very excited to see the overall system you have come up with. It is clear to see that you have come up with some very well thought out ideas.

[CVB]

Thanks Daren.. we try :)

Chuck, maybe you're getting too much of that Oregon fresh air, try closing your windows and watching more TV ;)


Alexander... everything will be aluminum.. no plastic... plastic = crap & expensive tooling. Carbon fiber flags and sun shade are my first choice, I need to run the design by our suppliers and see what kind of pricing we can get if we buy in bulk. Most of the carbon fiber stuff I've done has been low volume and expensive but these are fairly simple parts so we should get a good rate.

[Finner]

I like your idea of a lock at 90 degrees, as long as it can be released to travel further.


You bet Brook. The important thing about having a lock point at 90 degree's is that if a big gust of wind comes up and you have a filter in the box the lock will hold it from swinging closed on you and bashing the $$ lense you have in your hand and then smashing the back element into the metal PL mount.

[Brook Willard]

Is the MB hood itself going to be metal? A semi-flexible plastic/rubber like the MB20s [or any other MB on the market...] seems more desirable.

[CVB]

The hood is gonna be carbon fiber... just because its so cool. BTW.. someone reminded me of the new MB-20 II ... it looks like it doesn't have a removable sun shade.. seems like they stepped backwards.. http://www.filmtools.com/arrimb20.html

[Brook Willard]

Heheh... awesome.

As for the I vs. the II, they sunshade is removable, they just moved the tilt mechanism to the MB instead of on the shade. While I don't see much benefit for the eyebrow, it's great for the siders and bottomer.

And it looks cooler because there's more crap all over it.

I suppose the benefit to moving all of the tilt control for the eyebrow et al to the MB is that the shades can now be made of CF instead of aluminum with a tilt mechanism built in like on the I.

Video time...

[CVB]

Well, the shade is removable but can it be removed without taking the screws out? I haven't seen it in person. Looking forward to Brooks mattebox video series part II.

[Finner]

If by sun shade you are talking about the plastic matte box rectangular shade In over 15 years of doing film production work I can only think of 4 times I had to remove it so 8 -10 decent sized (not super tiny) allen key bolts would be more then fine and would save you a bunch of design time and keep costs down. It is a very abnormal thing to have to take off the sun shade (unfortunately most ARRI production MB's have the sun shade put on with what seems like 100 tiny tiny bolts and I think in the 4 times I took off the shade I lost at least 1 bolt no matter how careful I was.). The quick release sun shade is definately something you can save money on by simply attaching it with bolts.

I do not think you mean eyebrow and siders when you say sun shade as these definately have to be detachable.

[CVB]

right, I'm referring to the main shade - not the siders or the eyebrow.

[Finner]

Well then in that case do not worry about making it quick release. 3 allen key bolts along the top and bottom and 2 on each side would be lots good enough. A design like this would be very fast to remove. A good design is if the bolts would stay attatched through the hole on the shade after it is off (not able to screw the bolts right out of the shade). This would be good because then you would not lose them when you pull it off.

[Brook Willard]

Ok, here's the new video. (http://homepage.mac.com/brookwillard/mb202.mov) As I said in the video, I've never really had to remove the hood, but I do like how easily the MB20's comes off. If it adds engineering complexity and price... well... Finner's suggestion is certainly good enough.

The whole "hinged eyebrow mounting points to allow for a wider hood" that I mention at the end... it's pretty stupid and would require more engineering complexity than is necessary, so there isn't really a benefit to it. I can think of a dozen reasons why it wouldn't work... and it may not even have any benefit at all [considering all the other parts of the MB that would get in the way of a wide image before the shade itself...]. As you can tell, I came up with the thought while I was making the video.

One of the nicest things about the mattebox is that every screw is captive... nothing comes off. Ever. I love that.

[CVB]

Thanks Brook.. helpful suggestions.

[Priyesh P.]

My goodness. Over 4000 $ for a mattebox. And if you go through the catalogue of Arri there are 4 or 5 different models with hundreds of little bits and pieces you have to get for every combination of lenses, filters, masks and displays.

[Priyesh P.]

That point with the removable hood made me think about something. Wouldn´t that functionality be useful to convert the mb from a snap-on (compact/light) type to a big production one with a bigger (heavier) hood?

[Finner]

There is 1 main reason for taking off the shade or hood. When you are in a tight place like the inside of a car a matte box hood can get in the way and restrict some of your movement. Taking off the hood does not give you that much more room but often a little bit more room is all you need to get the shot. The reason you would want the MB assembly still on the camera without the hood would be in instances when you need your filters in front of the lense.

Ripped jeans in that video Brook. Are you just trying to tease us all with a little skin?

[Priyesh P.]

OT Finner, maybe it got discussed already. talking about skin, is that david hasselhoff (michael knight) as your avatar ? Naked ?

[Brook Willard]

Ripped jeans in that video Brook. Are you just trying to tease us all with a little skin?

Damn, you caught me.

Nah, I'm just too damn tall to find another pair that fits.

[Clayton Harper]

OT Finner, maybe it got discussed already. talking about skin, is that david hasselhoff (michael knight) as your avatar ? Naked ?

Hoff still loves me the best. :love:

[Adrian T.]

Speaking of the Hoff...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYj6TceYio0

:sick:

[Priyesh P.]

OMFG, that´s really disgusting, dude - sorry, I mean Mr. Lebowski.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The hood is gonna be carbon fiber...

Amen! Thank you. And thank you again for nixing the plastics!

[Finner]

Speaking of the Hoff...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYj6TceYio0

:sick:

Thanks big lebowski. I use to have "The Dude" as my avatar, you know a lofty role model to aspire to but after someone else took it so I switched to the Hoff and boy am I glad I did. Just look at that guy party, he really knows how to live the good life. It just fills me with pride to see Hoff knowing his dreams and sticking to em!!!!!

[Priyesh P.]

It just fills me with pride to see Hoff knowing his dreams and sticking to em!!!!!

Aaah, yeah. I wish I would be that lucky :-)

[Clayton Harper]

Speaking of the Hoff...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYj6TceYio0

:sick:

That video even makes me sad and I am a heartless bastard! :sad:

The fact its his kids is rough.

[CVB]

Tim, thanks for your input.. the mechanism I have in mind to get the plunger on the other side of the box is very simple.. I'll post some renderings as soon as I get the design finished. Just remember that if we don't innovate we go nowhere... we'd still be hand cranking cameras if someone didn't buck the trend at some point.

With regards to the carbon fiber... I wanted to use it for weight reduction, not bling (although I said I wanted it just because its cool). A CF sun shade can be half the thickness of a vac-formed part and has a weight reduction of about 30 grams. At Lockheed we used nothing but carbon fiber on our solar arrays and various internal satellite structures - there are plenty of ways to get a matte finish on CF.

BTW... companies like Arri and Lockheed are very similar.. they make very few products and they have a big budget to do so. Budget directly impacts innovation, if you have money to spare then you don't need to innovate... just spend more on some machining operations to take care of the problem. I like to innovate regardless of what budget I have.

[CVB]

Agreed... I found that Lockheed had way to much money and time. My job was never stressful when we worked on gov't stuff and just about everyone was working to about 10% of their potential. Typical schedules were in the tens of years. Pretty sad.

[Alex Boothby]

This has turned into an exciting thread. I have nothing of value to add except to offer my encouragement. This process seems quite unique and promising - such direct dialogue between manufacturer and client. Great ideas coming forth. (Perhaps someone will try this approach with a whole camera! :turned: ) I really hope this works out for you Curt, and you sell a 1000 of these things.

[Finner]

. When a mattebox breaks, a plane doesn't crash and people die :blink:

Although if a crane breaks, people could die...yikes!


But if a matte box breaks while on a crane arm and falls down on top of Britney Spears.....

I would rather face the wrath of a large group of normal human beings then the wrath of one prima donna rock star or movie star.

[Ken Willinger]

I may have mentioned this before but a nice feature I saw on another mattebox had a filter holder built into the shade (the inner rectangle portion), that had the ability to tilt forward or backward (I don't know exactly the range but would guess about 10-15mm), effectively being able to redirect lens flare. Although it did not fit all size filters, it seemed like a great idea and could be very useful, especially if it had locking steps in the degree of forward or backward range.

[Brook Willard]

Getken, I know what you're talking about. It doesn't affect lens flares, it prevents light from bouncing around between the filters and getting into the lens. Not a bad idea... but a tight donut and a good eye will prevent this even better. It seems like a workaround to me.

As I keep thinking about this, CF for the hood may not be an amazing idea. CF isn't the most flexible stuff... and some flexibility in the hood is desirable. I'd rather have it bend before it breaks if I'm trying to shove it somewhere.

As for the eyebrows... yeah, CF would work for me. Nice and light, rigid, etc.

[CVB]

Brook, I wouldn't worry about it too much.. The flexibility of CF is determined by its thickness.. I'm planning on making the hood out of .020" thick material. If you look at the Arri MB-20 II you can notice that the hood is covered by sheetmetal and only a small portion is exposed.. The design that I came up with is similar.. You'd really have to try hard to get in there and bend the hood to the breaking point.

Besides... thats what protos are for... you build up a few units and beat the crap of them and see what happens. If it doesn't work out then we can always change it.

[Brook Willard]

I can't wait to see the renders of this thing. I volunteer to beat the crap out of the proto for you.

[CVB]

OK Brook, when I have some to spare you get to do the "jump out of the plane and see if it survives the fall test". One more question.. does anyone take advantage of the 360 degree rotation of the filters? It seems to me that 180 degrees of rotation would be more than enough.. half the time the filters seem to interfere with the rest of the mattebox anyway. And also... how much up and down movement do you typically need for the filter trays?

[Brook Willard]

Define up and down movement?

180˚ would cut it for me, personally... I generally only rotate a polarizer. I keep it pretty simple on in-camera filtration, so others may disagree.

[Finner]

Define up and down movement?

180˚ would cut it for me, personally... I generally only rotate a polarizer. I keep it pretty simple on in-camera filtration, so others may disagree.

I believe the up and down motion Curt is talking about is for setting grads.

[CVB]

Yup, for grads.. The filter tray movement.

[Brook Willard]

Ah, bingo. I generally don't use grads, so somebody else will have to comment...

[Finner]

It all really depends on where you are setting the horizon so it varies a lot.

[Ernesto Lomeli]

if you can add as much movement to the filter rotation the better, just so you dont have to remount the filter in the try to get those odd angles with the ND grads. But then again its not really that big of a deal 180deg is still very flexible and would work fantastically.

How many rotating trays are you thinking of having, also what filer size have you settled on? im leaning towards 4x5.6, 5x5, cause if we buy grads in 5x5 we have both horizontal and veritcal cause they are square.. :-)
sounds stupid but thats a saving in filters. less shite to carry around.


plus the rotating stage for the 138mm pola is important, and it should be easily rotatable, In my dream world with a small marking scale, but thats not that important either.

Also remember to leave enough flat space on a side of the shade to be able to Velco Filter labels so we know whats in there.

looking forward to see an evolution in MB design.

Curt are you also thinking for making Clip-on backs, or will it be an all in one
with a removable swingaway kind of like the Vocas 0450 (i might be wrong on model but close enough).

[Alexander Nikishin]

Curt, what would be awesome is an evolution in filter tray design...

A set of filter trays that allow for 4x4, 4x5, 5x5, 5x6, or 6x6 filters.

Think of the design of the trays as a 4 sided vice grip. I'm not sure on the particulars or pieces used for the tray but I would imagine a tray that has 4, possibly worm-gear driven pads that grip the filters allowing for any size filter to be used.

Also, please make sure that the MB allows for the larger front diameter lens such as the older Cooke and Agenieux lens. A 150mm front diameter should be safe for most larger lens.

[Alex Boothby]

It's probably not possible to design a matte box to suite everyone's needs, nor the needs of every lens. Requests so far have been for an affordable, rugged yet light weight, fully featured yet compact, multi-stage matte box with swing away, clip-on config, capable of supporting 4x4, 4x5,6, 5x5 and 6x6 filters, etc, etc...

I'm a novice but that's beginning to sound like two (possibly three) different models to me. At some point the possibilities will have to be narrowed. I'd certainly be happy if the design would accommodate the range of Red glass we can currently expect - that is from 15mm - 300mm. Not sure what the fronts are on the Red 18-50 zoom or the 300mm but I would be surprised if they require 6x6 filters or a 150mm front diameter. If I need to use an Optimo, I expect I will rent a suitable matte box.

Personally the features I'm looking for are:

- compact and light
- rugged
- fully featured
- cheap

As the saying goes - pick any three. :wink: ... so I would pick the first three.

[Ernesto Lomeli]

I think the ideal thing, would be to make a system for the RED and its lenses,
There are already alot of options out there, for an infinatly variable amount of lens configurations and spacing.
I would like something that works great with the RED, doesnt get in the way of motors and FF units, is light and matches the design of my Camera.
Fits my RED primes perfectly.

[CVB]

Thanks you two.. I was starting to think the same. You know how the old saying goes... a camel is a horse designed by committee. I'm trying my best to meet the majority of the requests but there are a few that don't work well together. Regardless the first priority is to work with the red primes/zoom/300mm.

Now I have another question.. Does anyone every use two grads at a time? If not then technically only one of the trays needs to have up and down travel correct? I'm just trying to get all the facts straight before I finish off some of the bigger details.

[Alex Boothby]

Gotta agree Kaplooee. But... I'm biased for some reason.

[Priyesh P.]

Now I have another question.. Does anyone every use two grads at a time? If not then technically only one of the trays needs to have up and down travel correct? I'm just trying to get all the facts straight before I finish off some of the bigger details.

We frequentely combine NDs and grads, so yes, in our case one rotateable should be just fine, we never used more than one filter that needed to be rotated.
One situation where two rotatable slots could be required is when combining a grad and a pola or an nd grad and a pola. But don´t know how often that´s going to be the case. Very rarely I think.

[CVB]

Right, but with the pola you don't need to adjust it up and down.

[Scot Olson]

Correct, Pola only needs to rotate. I have used a Soft Edge ND Grad and a Hard Edge ND Grad at the same time. In this case it is nice to have two stages that can both rotate and have the position of the grad adjusted up and down. I think if you are trying to hit near anywhere near the top of the market as far as functionality, you have to have two rotating stages.

Since this is my first post in this thread let me add that I really hope that this product makes it to market. I will also cast my vote for an elegant product that works well with the Red camera and lenses. Cost is an issue but quality plays an equal part. Others have mentioned the Vocas MB-450 (http://www.vocas.com/pages/mb450.htm), it is my other favorite along with the Arri MB-20.

[CVB]

Thanks Scott. I've played around with the Vocas as well... that swing away mechanism is crazy. I surprised its not patented... maybe its pending.

[Ernesto Lomeli]

I vote for 2stage rotating, because you never know what life can bring.
I love the Vocas system i think its elegent anf well thought out, and if it was for the fact viewfactor is making a MB they would have a check with their name right now. I really like the click stop integrated eye brows in the front.

Personally if i can avoid using the big eyebrow as much as possible the better. Theres always a time when its needed but i really think people leave it one more often then not just cause it makes the camera look cool.
(i just dont know how usefull the mini eyebrows are and if they clear wides)


Hell if you want to make a badass accessory make a eyeglass holder that clips onto the rods, im always looking for places to put them.

But in all seriouse-nes there are alays going to be special needs and thats why there are sepcial mattboxs for lenses like S4 Hand Held or and Optimo Studio work, we know that, But i want my RED system to be complete and i see this as a way to have a fully integrated system, kinda like what ARRI did with the 235 or the SRIII. It had these great accessories that just fit all together and you had the feeling of handeling a system. hell even the colors matched.

And as far as i have seen from RED and Curt, i will not except anything less.

the devil is in the details, remember.

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hi Curt

just chimed in to remind you not to forget the folks that use Cooke zooms. My 20-100 has got a front diameter of 14.5 cm. The MB 20 does not fit, it's simply to small. The Cooke zooms are widely used lenses and not the only 35mm lens that has such a big diameter on the front end, the RED 300 should be pretty huge as well, I suppose.

Please make it as versatile as possible. Most matteboxes aim towards the 2/3 Cameras. Although Arri is building 35mm cameras the MB 20 is made for the 2/3 market in mind (HDCAM, etc...) Since RED is a digital 35mm camera it makes sense to check the other Arri matteboxes, especially the ones dedicated for 35mm.

Hans

[Priyesh P.]

Hearing of the other opinions, wouldn´t it then make make sense to make it modular and have a couple of different filter stages? dual rotatable, single rotatable, no rotatable? I mean there will be people who never use one or the other.

But then I have to ask Curt: Does it make a huge difference in terms of production costs for you to generally include two rotatable+shiftable filter stages over some modular system like I told above?

[Ken Willinger]

I think both stages have to rotate. I've been in situations where I'm using a pola and a grad where the grad has to rotate some just because of the landscape.

[Finner]

Now I have another question.. Does anyone every use two grads at a time? If not then technically only one of the trays needs to have up and down travel correct? I'm just trying to get all the facts straight before I finish off some of the bigger details.

An example of a time you would need two grads is when you have snow on the ground over expossed and a grey sky. If you wanted a more blue sky you would need to put a blue grad for the sky on the top and a ND grad for the snow on the bottom. They would both have to rotate so you could set them on the horizon. The combination of a soft edge and hard edge like mentioned is also sometimes done. 2 trays that rotate and allow up/down grad settings should cover most everyone.

[Keith Nealy]

Curt you got my vote.

Where do I put down a reservation?

Do I get a titanium "VF" ? :biggrin:

[Rocco Schult]

..does anyone take advantage of the 360 degree rotation of the filters? It seems to me that 180 degrees of rotation would be more than enough..

Think so too - 180 max.


A set of filter trays that allow for 4x4, 4x5, 5x5, 5x6, or 6x6 filters...

Let me just say, I have 6x6s... In case you need to rotate for S35.. just had a request for that.


I'm trying my best to meet the majority of the requests but there are a few that don't work well together.

We know that. Thanks for the effort and listening anyway!


Does anyone every use two grads at a time? If not then technically only one of the trays needs to have up and down travel correct? I'm just trying to get all the facts straight before I finish off some of the bigger details.

Uncommon, but possible. The same demanding D.P. said he would use 2 or more less and less. Used to combine many filters decades ago, but now he usually needs only one rotating.


We frequentely combine NDs and grads, so yes, in our case one rotateable should be just fine, we never used more than one filter that needed to be rotated.
One situation where two rotatable slots could be required is when combining a grad and a pola or an nd grad and a pola.

(Thought exactly the same.)
If you plan to build 2 rotating stages, whats more versatile of course, one with shift, one without should be enough.

[Alexander Black]

Best thing would be to sell the stages, ala petroff:

http://petroff.ws/Features.gif

[CVB]

Alex, nice suggestion but its patented.. http://www.google.com/patents?id=XvR3AAAAEBAJ&dq=petroff,+matte+box
I was going to show you guys what I have but I've found that few of my ideas have been patented... so I'm making some tweaks to the design. At least companies like Petroff are actually using their patent rather than sitting on it. Tiffen has a great patent for a tray-less filter system that I haven't seen in the marketplace yet.

[CVB]

Curt you got my vote.

Where do I put down a reservation?

Do I get a titanium "VF" ? :biggrin:


Keith... no titanium VF's maybe something more like edible cupcake VF's. We'll be sure to let everyone know when we are ready to take your money ;)

[Alexander Black]

hey curt,

that's actually good to hear. is the whole idea of modular filter trays patented? if so, bummer, if not... doesn't have to work the same way as petroff's. that said, 3 filter stages is overkill for most people, but I have once used 2 grad NDs and a pola on a shot which worked out well... so it's definitely (though occasionally) useful.

Re: rotation, more than 180 is unnecessary, especially if the filters go in on the side.

[Alexander Black]

Eh, looking at it, seems you would be at risk for litigation if you did anything modular. Too bad :)

[M Olsen]

Hi Curt,

I have resisted posting before on this thread to allow you more time to develop and less time answering !
But since you have asked for some opinions.. my two cents worth after 27 odd years of Matt Box wrangling.

Rotation of the trays.. 360 degree for a rear circular only, 180 is fine for the square-rectangular stages, especially as I suspect it will simplify engineering and reduce cost.

Up and down.. ideally unrestricted.

Stages... definitely a minimum of two Square\Rectangular and one rear circular.

Lens Interface.. a range of donuts should enable compatibility with standard popular lens systems and of course any good assistant carries a black cloth sleeve with elastic ends to take care of odd sizes.

[M Olsen]

I may have mentioned this before but a nice feature I saw on another mattebox had a filter holder built into the shade (the inner rectangle portion), that had the ability to tilt forward or backward (I don't know exactly the range but would guess about 10-15mm), effectively being able to redirect lens flare. Although it did not fit all size filters, it seemed like a great idea and could be very useful, especially if it had locking steps in the degree of forward or backward range.

Good point, this problem has mainly surfaced for me when using Panavision's Primos.
It often manifests itself as "ghosting\double imaging" on a highlight. I just "pop" one of the filters slightly out of vertical alignment.
Usually does the job.

[Alex Boothby]

Stages... definitely a minimum of two Square\Rectangular and one rear circular.

Hi Turnover. I'm a novice so can you explain the need for a circular stage? What filter would you use here? I'm hoping to avoid buying multiple filters of differnt sizes.

Thanks
Alex

[CVB]

the circular stage is the one closest to the lens. On the MB20 its a 138mm size and its contained in the bellows adaptor ring. Its my understanding that its used for a pola.

[Brook Willard]

This thread is going to be very interesting when all's said and done... it started with acknowledging the problem that there are no good, inexpensive MBs out there... moved onto brainstorming... requesting the attention of some manufacturers... Curt agreeing to make a MB... design requests... design discussion... etc.

Discussion will continue, then renders, then feedback, etc... someday somebody'll post "I just got my VF MatteBox in the mail! Check it out..." in here. :)

[Alex Boothby]

So are you closing the thread or what?!? :biggrin:

[ericyoung]

Alex, nice suggestion but its patented.. http://www.google.com/patents?id=XvR3AAAAEBAJ&dq=petroff,+matte+box
I was going to show you guys what I have but I've found that few of my ideas have been patented... so I'm making some tweaks to the design. At least companies like Petroff are actually using their patent rather than sitting on it. Tiffen has a great patent for a tray-less filter system that I haven't seen in the marketplace yet.

Seems like you should patent some of YOUR ideas, Curt!! :waaa:

Seriously though. Surely, Petroff's patent can't be so general as to include all modular Mattebox design. Petroff's particular snap together sections must be very specific, and so there must be alternative designs which can achieve the same aim? Hmmm...

[CVB]

I've patented a few of my ideas :) When you apply for a patent you try to be as vague as possible while still covering the specifics of your design. The more broad of a claim you can get patented the better. Petroff's and Tiffen's patents are very general and they patented a concept, not a specific design. There's always more than one way to skin a cat.

[CVB]

OK, so now I'm trying to lock down my angles for the sun shade and various other internals. I'm trying to come up with a worst case scenario FOV using the RED 15mm Prime and need a little help. I looked through my brothers trusty cinematographers handbook and there is no field of view data for a 15mm lens on a S35 sensor with a 1.77:1 format. (go figure)

Maybe some industrious individual can check my math.... assuming a sensor size of 24.4x13.7mm
15mm Prime: Horizontal=78.25 deg, Vertical=49.09 deg, Diagonal=86.02 deg
If my calcs are correct then the top/bottom of the mattebox will be kicked up about 25 degrees, and the sides will be kicked out about 40 degrees.

Compared to the MB20 these are fairly different... Here's what I got from the MB20: Horizontal=103 deg, Vertical=60 deg. These are approximate mind you.

So the question is... where is the physical focal point, and by that I mean the distance from the front of the lenses. I gather that its different from lens to lens but from my measurements on the MB20 I get a point thats about 70-80mm from the front of the lens towards the camera body. Using the angles I got for the Mysterium w/15mm, the focal point would have to be right at the very front of the lens or it might vignette with the MB20. I'm going to put some buffer in my angles but it be nice to get some feedback on this.

[John Allardice]

I'm getting 78.15 X 49.09 at the 4.5K aperture, and 73.5 X 45.57 at 4K, so it looks like you're good...not too certain about the origination point of those angles though, I think it varies dependent upon placement of the elements .

[Martin Drew]

Tiffen has a great patent for a tray-less filter system that I haven't seen in the marketplace yet.

I had a Tiffen Filterflex years ago. This was a trayless Mattebox, nice idea, but it was so cheaply made and it was very fragile, just not nice to use. I didn't keep it for long.

M

[ericyoung]

I've patented a few of my ideas :) When you apply for a patent you try to be as vague as possible while still covering the specifics of your design. The more broad of a claim you can get patented the better. Petroff's and Tiffen's patents are very general and they patented a concept, not a specific design. There's always more than one way to skin a cat.

But how can you patent modularity? If it covered that then Red One would be infringing it's copyright, which is clearly absurd.

I understand the idea of being as vague as the Patent Office will let you get away with, but if really vague patents were fully enforceable, there would be no competition. Doesn't a patent just cover a particular implementation of an idea, with a reasonable amount of fuzziness to allow room for change and development.

Still, I guess in these corporate times, when there are abusive patents on the very stuff of life, you'd need very deep pockets if you want to challenge even a ludicrous patent. Patents weren't designed to stifle competition, but that's how they are becoming abused by some corporations. But that's another thread. Grrr!! :angry03: :biggrin:

[JD Holloway]

Just started following this thread and I'm very happy somebody is tackleing this. All the best CVB, you rock.

Oh ya, I once used two (non circular) polas to make a variable ND so I could shoot directly at an HMI for kicks. Possible application for voltage based system like welding glass? Not exactly cinematic quality but who knows, might be an interresting effect, wierd strobing with the arc.

As for the spring (way earlier post), tilt camera back. Like the detents though, very necessary.

I was planning to buy a used 5x6 chroizsel but I'm holding off now.
You could easily take my money.
My personal feeling is that 5x6 is a decent size and would like the ability to use 6.6x6.6 filters as they are generally available. 4x5.6 could be limiting in some situations and more applicable for a "clip-on".

Now where is my micrometer?

J

[Zakaree Sandberg]

i want to make my own box i have a good idea for the filter portion.. i just have no way to construct a solid pvc trapazoidal box

[tj williams]

Hi CVB I like your motion control head which sells for 15K after intro. I own one of Bob's (Petroff) matte boxes. It is well made and he has excellent service. I wondered what price range you are thinking of selling your matt box?

[CVB]

It's TBD at the moment... I need to get everything designed before I'll know for sure but I'd expect to see it hit the market for less than $1K. If all goes to plan that might change for the better.