RED ONE to have slow shutter/intervalometer capability?

[Ralph Oshiro]

Will RED ONE have slow shutter capability (keeping the shutter open to accumulate mulitple frames of exposure), and an intervalometer for time lapse photography?

[Brook Willard]

I know it has time lapse built in... or at least it will at some point. The menu options were there.

The camera also has GPI and GPO on the two four-pin accessory ports on the back... if that helps.

[Ralph Oshiro]

Sorry to bump this if the answer is elsewhere, but will RED include a slow-shutter feature?

[David Mullen ASC]

Sorry to bump this if the answer is elsewhere, but will RED include a slow-shutter feature?

Well, I'm sure that at low frame rates and the shutter turned off (360) you'll get a lot of exposure.

You can't have an exposure time per frame that is longer than the frame rate allows. In other words, you can't take 24 pictures per second yet have each frame exposed for 1/12th of a second -- you'd be bending the laws of physics! But you can shoot at 12 fps with an exposure time per frame of 1/12th of a second (with a 360 degree shutter, i.e. no shutter) and then slow the footage down to look normal in motion speed, but with more blur and steppiness. That's essentially what a video camera like a Canon XL1 does when you select a shutter speed of 1/4 of a second, for example -- it drops the capture rate down to allow longer exposure times per capture, stores it in a buffer, and adds fields and whatnot to get the motion back to normal-looking in terms of speed.

So shooting at a low frame rate on the RED -- like 4 fps, whatever -- would do exactly the same effect. You'd just have to playback the footage at 4 fps for normal speed or convert it in post to 24 fps, whatever, by repeating frames.

[C.H.Haskell]

What about manually opening the gate for a single long term exposure? Taking a single shot, one after the next...similar to what you would do with a digital SLR but the camera using the intervalometer to control the time etc? Sorry if this just an insane question to ask, but it would be interesting to have these kind of manual controls.

[David Mullen ASC]

You couldn't get anything close to usable, motion-wise, though. It would be like any long-exposure still camera image, with a lot of motion blur. At some point, you might as well just use a DSLR.

[Keith Nealy]

You couldn't get anything close to usable, motion-wise, though. It would be like any long-exposure still camera image, with a lot of motion blur. At some point, you might as well just use a DSLR.

David, the new XDCAM HD F350 has this feature and some cinematographers have shot some stunning images at night with this feature. The aurora borialis, campfires at night with illuminated tents - shot that previously were difficult or impossible to get otherwise. The natural blurring that occurs can also be used with great effect to create ghostly images with gossamer-like trails - like an image I saw of a girl dancing on the beach -all done in camera.

It would seem that the intervalometer function combined with the variable shuttle would allow us to something similiar with RED, would'nt it?

Aloha,

Keth

[David Mullen ASC]

Well, that's pretty much what you're describing, an intervalometer with a long exposure time per frame. Lately though I've heard of people doing intervalometer work and stop-motion animation with digital still cameras and just importing the frames into their computer (or recording them directly to a computer.)

[Mike Prevette]

David, Currently it really is the best workflow. I've been doing it for a few years, and for a lot of reasons I find it superior to doing it any other way. I have done a decent amount of 35mm time lapse with a 435 and capping shutter, and SLR beats it hands down. Plus you can afford to have a few slr's set up shooting different viewpoints, taking up less room, for one tenth the rental cost. Hell I paid for my digital slr with the first time lapse gig I did with it.

_mike

[Keith Nealy]

The underground mine railway scene in Indiana Jones: Temple of Doom was shot in miniature that way with a Nikon with 35mm film.

But the XDCAMHD stuff is combined with a slow frame rate so you still get slo-motion movement plus the increased exposure per frame. It's quite effective and unique. I saw a shot of a starry night behind a farmhousea that you'd swear was a composite but it was all done in camera with the real stars.

[I Bloom]

One question that seems unanswered is that it says on the website that RED goes from 1-120fps. The question is can we go longer, like 30 seconds per frame.

IB

[Michael Mann]

I know it has time lapse built in... or at least it will at some point. The menu options were there.
Good news. I didn't know that.

[Brook Willard]

That's all unless something's changed. But as of NAB... there definitely were places in the menu with those options.

[ColinSmith]

You can't have an exposure time per frame that is longer than the frame rate allows. In other words, you can't take 24 pictures per second yet have each frame exposed for 1/12th of a second -- you'd be bending the laws of physics!


Just to clarify, if the camera can accumulate and blend frames internally (not sure if it can?) then you could have exposure time independent of frame rate or "shutter speed".
Also it can be done quite easily in post. Shoot 24fps with a 360 degree shutter, and by choosing combinations of frames to blend or skip you can output a sequence with a wide variety of exposure times and "shutter angles" .

Even on HDV I've done 25fps sequences with a rolling 1second exposure no problem.

[Dennis Guskov]

Shoot 24fps with a 360 degree shutter, and by choosing combinations of frames to blend or skip you can output a sequence with a wide variety of exposure times and "shutter angles".

That's a brilliant idea!!! Capture the RAW exposure cycles! Can it be done?

[Ralph Oshiro]

. . . the new XDCAM HD F350 has this feature and some cinematographers have shot some stunning images at night with this feature.
Yes! That's the feature I'm talking about! Most newer Sony cameras incorporate this feature, leaving the shutter open for as long as, I think, 1.5 seconds. They call it "frame accumulation." Even my DSR450 does it, but ONLY in *interlaced mode. Sony "forgot" to mention this little detail in the DSR450 marketing literature--I only found out about it in the user manual AFTER I bought the camera!
*[I meant to say in "interlaced" mode, not "60i" as stated earlier before this edit]

Never really got an answer to this question though, yet.

[Stuart English]

Slow Shutter no, Timelapse Yes.

When you have a tape based recording solution or a log GOP codec, you must feed the recording system a fixed number of frames per second. RED does not have either of these restrictions, so the same visual look is achieved by operating in Timelapse mode.

[tj williams]

Then what shutter speeds are available? Just a 48th of a second? faster?
What about running at 12Fps will it still be faster shutter and undercrank speeds the look is very different with the slower shutter on film, The look of very slow
fps combined with a faster shutter will be very slide show?

[David Mullen ASC]

I don't know why at very low frame rates why the RED camera wouldn't allow equally long exposure times -- at 1 fps, for example, you can have exposure times of 1 second per frame (360 degree shutter setting), so if there were a time-lapse feature, you figure that at the least you can get the 1 second per frame exposures since you can get that at 1 fps, and probably longer exposures for time lapse.

[ColinSmith]

I think that is what Stuart might mean.... that there can be slow shutters in "timelapse mode", but that the camera does not have a frame accumulation feature for regular 24fps shooting, and any effects of those kinds would be left for post.....

[Ralph Oshiro]

Slow Shutter no, Timelapse Yes.

When you have a tape based recording solution or a log GOP codec, you must feed the recording system a fixed number of frames per second. RED does not have either of these restrictions, so the same visual look is achieved by operating in Timelapse mode.Thanks Stuart! So I guess, the effective answer is, YES! Right?

[ColinSmith]

There is a still a difference between shooting, for example, "1fps timelapse with 1 second exposures", and shooting "24fps with frame accumulation to give an effective 1s exposure time" though.

Which one you want will depend on how you want to use it.
Luckily the frame accumulation look can easily be created in post, as long as you know to shoot with a 360 degree shutter in advance.

[David Mullen ASC]

There is a still a difference between shooting, for example, "1fps timelapse with 1 second exposures", and shooting "24fps with frame accumulation to give an effective 1s exposure time" though.

You can't actually shoot 24fps with a frame accumulation for an effective 1 second exposure time. It's not physically possible -- you'd be bending the laws of physics. You can't take a new picture 24 times a second of a subject, yet expose each of those frames for longer than 1/24th of a second!

So any camera doing "exposure accumulation" is actually capturing at a much slower rate, using a frame buffer, and simply re-writing the information to look normal speed at 24 fps.

So there's no difference between that and simply shooting with an intervolameter and stretching out that footage in post to look normal speed but with a lot of blur per frame, as opposed to sped-up looking at 24 fps. You can create exactly the same look in post with intervolameter footage.

[Ralph Oshiro]

As long as I can shoot a night exterior with 0.01 footcandles of ambient moonlight, and still expose for the night sky and a starfield, I'll be happy. I've seen those F350 "accumulated-frame" starlit night exterior shot demos. They looked awesome!

[Tom Lowe]

Ralph, I would be very shocked if any camera could expose for stars in under 10 seconds... even with the ISO cranked through the roof. Maybe with a full moon, but still, I can't imagine any camera being able to do it at 1fps.

The question a lot of people want to have answered is whether the RED will do long-exposure timelapses, like 45-second night exposures? Right now people can do it with DLSR's, but the post production chore is a real pain compared to the type of recording an HVX does, for example. With an HVX, you shoot a timelapse, and you can play it back right there on camera, which is pretty amazing. With DLSR, you shoot the frames and then you have to stream them together in an NLE later. And for me, because I shoot RAW DLSR timelapses, the post is even more complicated. If the RED could do long-exposure timelapses the way the HVX does short exposure timelapses, that would be amazing.

But as others have pointed out, with DLSRs, they are so cheap you can have several running at once. And if you are going to burn out your sensor or shutter, better to burn out a $700 DLSR body than a $17,000 RED.

[Ace]

Tom, Adobe lightroom is excellent for your application. Even Bridge CS3 is great for processing multiple raw files. And since the images are all sequenced, isnt it just a matter of dragging and dropping a folder in Premiere or After Effects or whatever?

[Jim Arthurs]

Right now people can do it with DLSR's, but the post production chore is a real pain compared to the type of recording an HVX does, for example. With an HVX, you shoot a timelapse, and you can play it back right there on camera, which is pretty amazing. With DLSR, you shoot the frames and then you have to stream them together in an NLE later.

Hey Tom... it's all relative to your background. I have to put on my old timer hat... Even the DSLR technique is fantastically quick and amazing compared to shooting film and dealing with the various issues... often for financial reasons, I'd have to burn through 400' of 35mm before processing... sometimes as long a month before seeing ANYTHING... and that's 20 to 40 shots completely blind with no feedback. Zero. Nada. Zip.

You do tend to get very good with exposure meters within a roll or two. :)

Like you I can't wait to see what RED ultimately brings to the table in this arena...

[Ralph Oshiro]

Ralph, I would be very shocked if any camera could expose for stars in under 10 seconds... even with the ISO cranked through the roof. Maybe with a full moon, but still, I can't imagine any camera being able to do it at 1fps.
Yes, certainly that would require an exposure of several seconds per frame. I guess I misread Stuart's post. I guess the answer (that he clearly stated), is, in fact, "NO," just as Stuart had said. So, there will be no "slow shutter" feature. So, no, I won't be able to emulate the F350's "night with stars" shot with RED.

[ColinSmith]

You can't actually shoot 24fps with a frame accumulation for an effective 1 second exposure time. It's not physically possible -- you'd be bending the laws of physics. You can't take a new picture 24 times a second of a subject, yet expose each of those frames for longer than 1/24th of a second!

I'm maybe not explaining very well.

What I am talking about is shooting 24fps with a 360 degree shutter angle, and each 1/24 of a second you write out a frame that is a blend of the previous 24 frames (for example). In that way you have 24 different frames produced each second, and each frame has an "exposure time" of 1 second (or however many frames you choose to blend).

The end result is a rolling exposure, like a series of 1 second exposures, but running at 24fps. No single frame is exposed for more than 1/24 of a second, it is the accumulation and the 360 degree shutter angle that gives the effective longer exposure. This does not do anything for low light shooting, the exposure time for metering is still 1/24s, but it does give the exactly equivalent appearance to a full 1s shutter setting.

[Jim Arthurs]

Yes, certainly that would require an exposure of several seconds per frame. I guess I misread Stuart's post. I guess the answer (that he clearly stated), is, in fact, "NO," just as Stuart had said.

I wonder what the longest exposure will actually be?

RED is capable of shooting very slow frame rates, correct? (like 1fps?) If so, and that frame rate is the slowest "time-base" for your work, could you have potentially 1 second exposures for your animation/motion control/time-lapse?

[Michael Brennan]

Frame integration has been around for some time in astronomy and machine vision cameras.
JVC I think were the first to put it into a three chip box camera in the early eighties. it was great fun to play with.

One of the problems is that dead pixels and noise can become an issue.
In respect to exposing stars any modern video camera is sensative enough to see soem of the brighter stars if it is large enough in frame.

on a wide shot for a time lapse star scape one can use longer exposures to get them to flare and to make dimmer stars visible.


Mike Brennan

[Jared VanLeuven]

Slow Shutter no, Timelapse Yes.

Stuart, is the slow shutter (for timelapse work), something that is a hardware limitation, or something in software that could be tweaked to eventually provide that functionality in a future firmware release? Just want to know if this is a "never" thing for timelapse.

[David Mullen ASC]

I guess the real question is what is the longest shutter speed selectable in time lapse mode? Is it 1 second? Or if you only shot a picture every five minutes, could you have the shutter open for five minutes?

[Tom Lowe]

Hey Tom... it's all relative to your background. I have to put on my old timer hat... Even the DSLR technique is fantastically quick and amazing compared to shooting film and dealing with the various issues... often for financial reasons, I'd have to burn through 400' of 35mm before processing... sometimes as long a month before seeing ANYTHING... and that's 20 to 40 shots completely blind with no feedback. Zero. Nada. Zip.


Haha, I don't know if it was you, Jim, or another "old timer"... but someone here made a great post about how hard timelapse used to be on 35mm. What a freekin' nightmare! I try to remind myself of that when i am slogging through my RAW post-production routine for DLSR timelapse. :)

[Keith Nealy]

That seems like the heart of the question.

In reference to the frame accumulation mode of the XDCAM-HD...

This by... Mark Falstad;two-time national Emmy award-winning director/cameraman - shooting dogsleds in Alaska.


My favorite pictures were the time lapses of teams arriving using the frame accumulation feature. The camera was set up to record one frame every five seconds for time lapse. With frame accumulation, each recorded frame was made up of 60 frames of video. This basically amplified the light 60 times without any noise. We turned off the Ultralights, and in almost total darkness, I shot a time lapse of teams arriving in Skwentna lit only by the headlamps.

On another 10-degree night, Peter Crithary volunteered to baby-sit the camera for a time lapse of the northern lights, again using the frame accumulation feature. He used one frame every 10 seconds for this time lapse. Even though the aurora was faint, the camera was still able to capture the beautiful lights on a spectacular Alaskan night.

So my question is - is this -or will this - be possible with Red One?

[Jon Armstrong]

Dear David

Nice to see you across Forums (or is that Fourii).

Back in the last century, I started using DSLR for time-lapse. Youve simply got to try a river shot at 30 seconds. The problem has always been that grey area where the the shots should run in a smooth consecutive flow. The DSLR needs time to store the image or, empty the buffer. For still photographers, a five second burst is the most they ever need. The RED would be nice if you could dial in up to 2 frames per min and this would bridge the gap.

Mind you, Mr. Pancro would make a fortune. "Hand me the ND3 please. No not the .3, the 3

Jon Armstrong
Adelaide South Australia
jon@nildersperandum.tv
http://www.nildesperandum.tv

[ColinSmith]

For timelapse especially it would be nice if we could dial in some low low ISOs.....

[David Mullen ASC]

For timelapse especially it would be nice if we could dial in some low low ISOs.....

Although usually the really long exposure times are for low-light night stuff. Most time-lapse daytime stuff I see uses normal exposure times.

[Don Woods]

Although usually the really long exposure times are for low-light night stuff. Most time-lapse daytime stuff I see uses normal exposure times.

It would only be use full for night stuff. Like light trails Etc.. But then again it is timelapse so you don't want to long or it will not look rright

[Ralph Oshiro]

FWIW: Sony PDW-F350 XDCAM HD cameras (as do several other Sony cameras, including the DSR450) have a "slow shutter" feature (up to 64-frame accumulation) in addition to time lapse capability. Here's a link to the Sony XDCAM HD demo.

Click to see Sony PDW-F350 demo video (mms://wm.vitalstreamcdn.com/sony_vitalstream_com/XDCAM_HD_Feature_Demo.wmv)

[ColinSmith]

To keep the 180 degree shutter look in timelapse you're trying for the exposure time to be 50% of the time between frames, so you might easy be looking for 1,2,3,4 second exposure times during longer day time shoots, so some use for low ISO there, but yes, not an essential.

Has anybody used the Sony frame accumulation themselves? Is it anything more than a simple frame blend in post would be? I have not tried an "add blend in post, which is what the XDCAMs seem to be doing, as I had assumed it would be too noisy, but maybe......

[JohnF]

If someone mentions shooting slow shutter t-lapse again with a DSLR I'll go mental!

I want slow shutter capability in camera. It's not difficult.

DSLR's have a mechanical gate that was not designed with the frame numbers that filming requires in mind. I shot a T-lapse recently if I had done it on a DSLR then, for this specific shot, I would have eaten up 10% of the cameras working life on ONE SHOT. Now at over well over £1000 per camera that means the shot would have cost me well over £100.

Shooting with DSLRs does do the job agreed but it is expensive and eats ones profit margin by quite a considerable degree. Not to mention that the MTBF is a "mean" average and that the DSLR camera can fail well before that time esp with the mechanical workload that shooting t-lapse can generate.

But back to slow shutter on RED. I want slow shutter for creative purposes
I don't care about fps frame rates as this is t-lapse or creative work where the playback frame rate is often sorted out in post(or one might depend on the combination of slow shutter and standard playback(fps)rates to aquire the intended effect). I want to aquire slow shutter shots for the look of them. Plus unlike DSLRs or film RED does not have a mechanical gate which will fail so I would be able to shoot far more slow shutter and t-lapse without the worry of camera failure.

So please please RED team just give us the function for a slow shutter speed.
You won't believe the type of shots this camera will be able to get esp if combined with internal t-lapse controller.

BTW if you are fitting an internal intervalometer make it versatile.
Please include shutter speed, length of shot frames and/or seconds, if possible camera power down and power up and an aperture priority mode where the shutter speed will vary depending on the light level (meaning the camera is able to be left running on it's own with very little in the way of supervision)

The other point about slow(er) shutter speeds is that one can capture very
nice landscape shots during twilight without resorting to high noise/grain ISO ratings changing the look and/or feel of ones project.

JohnF

[Stuart English]

We have a Timelapse function. So long as you have a 360 degree shutter a Frame Accumulation (Slow Shutter) effect can be done in post.

[Jim Arthurs]

... and the longest possible exposure the RED can produce?

Both David M. and I have floated that 1 sec is feasible if the slowest frame rate is 1fps and you use 360 degree shutter...

[JohnF]

We have a Timelapse function. So long as you have a 360 degree shutter a Frame Accumulation (Slow Shutter) effect can be done in post.

Sigh... that's the first bit of bad news about RED what's more that's just shoving more unneeded work onto post, which is more expensive than just shooting slow shutter in the first place.

I'd like to know why slow-shutter won't be an option? As frame accumulation in post is not really the same as capturing the photon's per frame in-situ. There are benefits to post based frm-accumulation but it is time consuming compared with slow shutter speed shooting (please note I've been using both techniques for many years now)

What's more I won't be able to hand clients a piece of footage at the end of the shoot I'll have to say "Hold on shots x,y and z as I'm going to have to spend hours of time processing the images - which I'll have to charge for." The client will then say something along the lines of "I told you we should have bought stock footage" or "Don't bother we'll drop the shots then".

I'll have to point out that this function is very significant for both myself and my client base and might well determine whether or not I'll go with RED.
I'm not asking for a 20minute exposure I'm looking for upto 10sec per frame ideally but I'd settle for 1sec per frame. My point is that I'll have to have another camera to shoot this kind of material, which will compromise the overall look and would mean a doubling up of lenses, transport costs, possibly crew, insurance etc...

So what will be the slowest exposure RED will be able to shoot then?


... and the longest possible exposure the RED can produce?

Both David M. and I have floated that 1 sec is feasible if the slowest frame rate is 1fps and you use 360 degree shutter...

I hope that is true!

I also might ask is a hardware issue about RED or is this a firmware issue that could be an updatable feature in the future?

Sorry if this post seems a little negative or over forceful but this feature not being available throws a real big spanner in the works regarding a project I'm preparing!

JohnF

[Stuart English]

My point is that if you have a camera, designed to work in a broadcast environment, or a camcorder that is either tape based or based on MPEG encoding, you HAVE to have a framestore based signal accumulation feature - i.e "slow shutter".

But if you do not have those restructions then there can be other ways to do the same effect.

So what is the effect that you want to do?

[Keith Nealy]

I agree John.

Unless there is a technical reason why RED can't perform this function it might be good strategy to include it since it is a touted feature in the new XDCAM-HD line and gives them a significant marketing advantage.

Its seems as though the RED strategy is to push the bounderies of what's possible technically and economically. As creative imagers, we are also looking for new ways to express ourselves with the power of new digital tools that we can employ in the field, not just achieve in post.

In the old days, most of the great effects were done in camera allowing the DPs more creative freedom. This is why Coppola and Jackson explored this in "Dracula" and the "Lord of the Rings".

We don't see these techniques as gimmicks, but creative tools to further express our ideas.

The RED team has done some amazing things, maybe the best of which is creating this board and giving us a voice that is listened too.

We all want this project to succeed so I hope you take my suggestions in the spirit for which they are given.

aloha,

Keith

[Stuart English]

Again, let us know what effect it is that you are trying to create and we can comment further on this.

[Michael Ragen]

sorry. i'm a little confused too. can we set the camera to take 1 frame every 5 seconds with a 180 degree shutter so the exposure time is 2.5 seconds or is this not possible.

[Keith Nealy]

I believe what is needed, though I am no expert, is the ability for time lapse, which you say you already have - and the ability to vary the shutter at the same time.

What this effective creates is a way to shoot at night or low light situations, albeit at slow frame rates, but with a frame or light accumulation per frame that amplifies the existing light without amplifying the noise floor.

There are many creative effect possible with this technology, some of which have been mentioned in this thread.

When you are shooting scenes with very little motion in them you get a time-exposure effect of being able to see in very dim light, that could not be recorded any other way.

The beauty is the amplification of the light without the noise.

When there is motion in the scene, you get ghostly trails and an amplification of light depending the two variables of shutter and time-lapse rate.

There are many creative uses, ie. night for night establishing shots, dream sequences or as in the Ititerod film, being able to shoot the dogteams arriving at checkpoint at night with no lights.

I hope this helps. Thanks for your genius Stuart and all your hard work.

aloha,

Keith

[David Mullen ASC]

Again, let us know what effect it is that you are trying to create and we can comment further on this.

I think the question is simply that if you take a picture once every 10 seconds, for example, could you have the shutter open for 10 seconds for each frame? Or is 1 second the longest exposure time per frame since 1 fps is the slowest non-time-lapse frame rate selectable?

[Poi Boy]

It would really be a great thing if the shutter could stay open as David describes. If Red one does not have this function could it be added later as a soft/firmware upgrade ?
Aloha
-A

[Ralph Oshiro]

There are many creative uses, i.e., night for night establishing shots, dream sequences . . .
Yes, I think the use of long-exposure and time-lapse shots as establishing shots, and especially as transition shots, are often VERY effective uses of these "trick" shots. The 1985 Kurt Russell feature about a serial killer, "The Mean Season," uses a number of time lapse shots of stormy skies over Miami as transition shots. The shots create an eerie, dramatic mood that fits the story well. This would also probably be my primary usage of a long-exposure and time-lapse photography.

[Jannard]

It would really be a great thing if the shutter could stay open as David describes. If Red one does not have this function could it be added later as a soft/firmware upgrade ?
Aloha
-A

As long as everyone is OK with an upgrade as time goes on... we are good. We can't satisfy every request from day one. But we can, and will, upgrade many things as we go forward.

Jim

[Ralph Oshiro]

As long as everyone is OK with an upgrade as time goes on... we are good. We can't satisfy every request from day one. But we can, and will, upgrade many things as we go forward.

Jim
"Okay?" You mean, are we okay with you guys making our cameras even cooler as time goes on??? I know I would be totally "okay" with that! I understand that at some point very soon, you guys have to "lock" the design, and start making production models. And that listening to our design suggestions, at this late date, may be getting a bit tiresome for all of you. My apologies. Lemme make it clear that we really, really appreciate the open communication channels here with you all, and of course, really appreciate all the hard work you guys are putting into the project thus far. Just do what you guys gotta do. Thank you.

[Jannard]

...you guys have to "lock" the design, and start making production models.

To be clear... we will NEVER "lock" the design down. The trick is to make sure that the early adopters, or any of our customers, don't suffer any negative consequences from our continued improvements.

Jim

[Sam Druckerman]

To be clear... we will NEVER "lock" the design down. The trick is to make sure that the early adopters, or any of our customers, don't suffer any negative consequences from our continued improvements.

Jim

That's what I'm talking about!

Thanks Jim.

[Greg Syverson]

I have been asking about using video cameras for years for the Auroras. Many people have stated why not use a 35mm film SLR or now a DSLR. I have 20 + years of shooting auroras with a 35mm SLR. The problem is when the auroras are very active you loose the motion with a super long exposure. For years I have used the VX2100 and DSR500 for aurora video. The 1/4 second with the VX2100 does fine. The stars show up very well. The aurora color has to be worked on in post as well as the noise. Not the best, but it works. I can not help but to believe the RED system with a longer shutter speed would work well. All I need is from 1 to 4 seconds of open shutter and my job would be done.

Jim,

Why dont you fly down to Alaska this winter and we can test your camera on the auroras. (like you really have time)LOL.

Perhaps some day I will test it and would be happy to post the results.

http://www.gregsyverson.com

[Stuart English]

"if you take a picture once every 10 seconds, for example, could you have the shutter open for 10 seconds for each frame?"

Keeping the shutter open for up to 10 seconds in a step print (step record) timelapse function is a great goal. The RED-ONE control system does allow exposures longer than a single frame.

With regard to the quoted Slow Shutter mode on an XDCAM HD the literature suggest that the maximum number of frames that can be accumulated is 64. At 1080i that would be a little over 1 second then, but if it is an accumulation of 64 sequential frames that may not necessarily create the same look as a 1 second continuous exposure.

[Keith Nealy]

Jim, the concept that the design is never locked down is very exciting and portends a great future for all of us. Thank you for being so courageous and thank you for entertaining our ideas.

I think because of the recent delay "challenges", the atmosphere on the boards seems to be "well, hell, while we're on hold, let's play around with some new ideas". And you fed our appetite with those new pics which fueled the fire. If it's getting a little out of hand just let us know. We can be like little kids always wanting more, but I think we all know a good thing when we see it and know when not to look a "gift horse in the mouth."

and Stuart:

I think we're all getting on the same page with this frame accumulation shutter concept but what it will probably need is your knowledge of what the capabilities of the system are now and in the future and some creative testing. I have a feeling that you can break some new ground here and give Sony a run for there money and give us all some new innovative tools that will herald RED not only as a technical achievement but one that put more creative tools in the hands of more people.

And BTW, as Ralph and Jim mentioned, if this has to come later in an update that is fine and will be a very cool thing.

Thank you for playing.

aloha,

Keith

[Jim Arthurs]

Keeping the shutter open for up to 10 seconds in a step print (step record) timelapse function is a great goal. The RED-ONE control system does allow exposures longer than a single frame.

Hi Stuart... there are basically two different questions floating around in this thread, some are asking about accumulation exposure effects and the others just simply wondering what the longest time exposure you can make with the RED under any frame-rate condition (David and I fall under the second catagory at the moment).

What I'm reading between the lines on RED Team answers is that you're not ready to reveal that info, and that it's possibly a moving target still as development goes on, is that correct?

If so, let's flip this on it's head... tell us what's the longest exposure you're willing to garantee at this point. I assume that 1/24 second is a safe bet (360degree shutter at 24fps)? How about 1/12 second... Or 1/6 second, 1/4 second, or...?

Somewhere in the range of potential exposures from 1/48 of a second to "bulb", is a number that you could feel comfortable confirming, I'd think...

Regards

[David Mullen ASC]

I'd assume that if the camera can run normally at 1 to 60 fps, then you can be sure that at 1 fps with a 360 degree shutter, you'd get 1 second per frame exposures, which is why I was asking if its possible to go even longer when in time lapse mode.

[Stephen Williams]

I'd assume that if the camera can run normally at 1 to 60 fps, then you can be sure that at 1 fps with a 360 degree shutter, you'd get 1 second per frame exposures, which is why I was asking if its possible to go even longer when in time lapse mode.

Hi David,

Exactly,with timelapse I have often used 12 seconds exposures and a ND3.0 (10 stops).

Stephen

[Stuart English]

We'll know the maximum exposure time possible when we've performed some more specific tests. But the goal of 10 sec or so is understood.

As for "Slow Shutter" again, if someone says "i must have this feature or your camera cannot be used" then I'd just like to know what the specific effect is that is being requested. It is not clear to me what it is that SloS offers that a properly designed timelapse wouldn't.

Any specifics on that anyone?

[Greg Syverson]

The choice of a fraction or several seconds would allow me the freedom to capture the auroras. When they are moving fast and are very bright, I could balance the movement of the auroras with the shutter speed. When they move very slow I can let them burn in making a bright image with good detail in the moon lit foreground.

[Tom Lowe]

I wouldn't say the goal is "ten seconds." Frankly, 45 seconds to one minute would be a more logical goal. 99% of day timelapse shooting can be done in under 1 second. The main reason to have exposures longer than 1 second would be for night shooting, and for night shooting -- trying to capture the stars, etc, you need a 20- to 50-second exposure time. The difference between being able to shoot 1 or 5 second exposures is not what most people are asking for. The real difference kicks in once you can go over about 15 or 20 seconds, because then you can shoot at night.

[Jim Arthurs]

Stuart, I can't speak to the needs or wants of the accumulation folks, but for "standard" slow shutter time-lapse that I've done in the past, everything in these links is mine, all shot on 35mm;

http://www.fotosearch.com/digital-vision-video/drifting-skies/DGV711/
http://www.fotosearch.com/digital-vision-video/bumper-to-bumper/DGV717/
http://www.fotosearch.com/photodisc-film/storm-clouds/EYW766/
http://www.fotosearch.com/photodisc-film/clouds/EYW717/
http://www.timelapsesource.com/

I point these out because every shot in all these links fall into two catagories; "Daylight" timelapse (50 ASA stock, exposure times from 1/4 to 4 seconds) and "Night" timelapse (400 ASA stock, exposure times from 4 to 8 seconds). So, for me, 1/4sec to 10 seconds would be a welcome range to see, with intervals ranging from 2 frames/sec up to 1 frame a minute. Of course "more" is better, more interval choices, more exposure choices, etc.

Now I don't currently do stock work, but I'm still interested in RED filling the gap between my good 'old 35mm Wall and the DSLR's... when you want to bang out 2 frames a second at 4K rez for 1800 frames or so... well, the DSLR's are still "challenged"...

[Tom Lowe]

BTW if you are fitting an internal intervalometer make it versatile.
Please include shutter speed, length of shot frames and/or seconds, if possible camera power down and power up and an aperture priority mode where the shutter speed will vary depending on the light level (meaning the camera is able to be left running on it's own with very little in the way of supervision)

Sorry to go off topic a bit, but is this something that can be done in a timelapse? I've often wondered how I could leave a timelapse running from afternoon and have it transition to night. Obviously using auto-exposure with Ap priority would work, but my fear is that the changes in the shutter speed will be visible in the final result -- ie, you would suddenly notice jumps in exposure, resulting in a flickering image?

[anamibia]

Stuart,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart English
As for "Slow Shutter" again, if someone says "i must have this feature or your camera cannot be used" then I'd just like to know what the specific effect is that is being requested. It is not clear to me what it is that SloS offers that a properly designed timelapse wouldn't.

Any specifics on that anyone?



the realtime feedback aspect alone radically distinguishes the slowshutter/framestore technique from the post solutions that've been suggested.

One of the fundamental differences between digital and photochemical image capture is the relative elimination of latency in digital capture. For example, by analogy, one has a musical instrument, say a trumpet. One blows into the trumpet but no sound comes out. Instead a card pops out. The card is then processed, placed back into camera and one hears "toot". Sounds ridiculous right. But, obviously, this sort of latency has been an essential aspect of photochemical image capture since it's inception. In fact, like film grain, it's been valorized as part of the "magic" of film.

A relatively few slowshutter settings (1/30, 1/12, 1/6, 1/3 sec) can produce quite a few amazing effects. I love, for example, shots which play with relative blur of figures in space and motion. Again, to use a musical analogy, slowshutters/framestore effects allow one to create images which register, sequentially, a non tempered gaze. In other words, the frame as a continuity of instances rather than a single fixed instant. Many non western musics, as opposed to western classical music, have a tendancy to "worry the note", ie. they treat notes as inherently semi-stable sonic phenomena. This tendency, this flux, for instances, is a primary source of black american music's (jazz, blues, rnb, rock, hip hop) power.

The ability to guage, calibrate, adjust, manipulate these effects in (relatively speakingy) realtime brings to bear on the creation of moving pictures the entire rich body of musical complexity and nuance. And, more importantly, would allow the creative individual an unprecedented ability to achieve signature specificity in ones moving pictures (ie. the "voice" of hendrix, streisand, aretha, cobain, miles, etc. in visual terms).

I'd readily pay an additional five grand for the abilty to select slowshutter speeds(/framestore) in any fraction of a second. (Imagine the ability to expose individual frames, in sequence, at different shutter speeds)

I could go on, but simply put, red, by bringing this feature to 4k capture has a real opportunity to fundamentally enrich the future of moving picture making.

[Keith Brust]

I shoot lots of time lapse for documentary work. It would be extremely useful to have at least a 40 second exposure. While I can do great time lapse with digital slrs (especially nightscapes), I can't transition the shots to real time. If the RED had a long exposure I could (and certianly would) use it for senic shots flowing from starscapes to realtime sunrise. With my moco head I can see the shots already.... camera panning as stars cross sky (also reflected in pond) as sun rises ramp to real time, pan ends as moose comes into frame with water dripping from antlers. I would have used this technique several times on the sequence I shot for PLANET EARTH. I would love to be able to do this. So, if possible please, please, please on long exposures.


keith@wildtimemedia.com

[Keith Nealy]

Jim, your time lapse stuff is beautiful.

But as one who is interested in going beyond those time-honored techniques with new technology let me offer these quotes from two articles to help Stuart understand what we are talking about with Frame Accumulation.

From :


http://www.studiodaily.com/main/minisites/xdcamhd/f/mwhatsnew/6335.html

Interview with Cameraman Mark Falstad

What exactly is frame accumulation?

It’s a variable setting on the camera that lets you decide how many frames’ worth of light you can accumulate before you lay down to the disk. In my case, it worked as a light amplifier. I had 60 frames of light making up one frame, so I was multiplying the light that was there times 60. One of the Sony support engineers volunteered to babysit the camera overnight while we were doing the Northern Lights, so I set it up on 9 dB wide open, set up 60-frame accumulation, and added time lapse to it. That night the Northern Lights were fairly faint. It wasn’t a spectacular show by any means, and this camera was able to capture that.

I used it in one other place — Squentin, a checkpoint, and there’s no light there but the Teklights that you wear on your head, the little LED lights, and the mushers have slightly bigger headlamps that they wear, but there’s no other light at the checkpoint. With frame accumulation, the checkpoint was clearly lit up by these little lights. To compose the frame, there was a tree 20 or 30 feet from me, and I turned my tek light on it and illuminated the tree. We shot some other buildings at night, set at 9 dB or 12 dB wide open, and you don’t see them at all. But you turn frame accumulation on and, boom, they’re there. Obviously it’s a tool that has specific uses.

How many frames were you shooting in each case?

We were shooting one frame every five seconds at the checkpoint, and one frame every 10 seconds for the Northern Lights.

What other ways does this camera change your job?

To go look at [our frame-accumulated shots], you look at a thumbnail and see the shot instantly, and that’s wonderful. As a person who shot tape for a gazillion years,

From another article:
My favorite pictures were the time lapses of teams arriving using the frame accumulation feature. The camera was set up to record one frame every five seconds for time lapse. With frame accumulation, each recorded frame was made up of 60 frames of video. This basically amplified the light 60 times without any noise. We turned off the Ultralights, and in almost total darkness, I shot a time lapse of teams arriving in Skwentna lit only by the headlamps.

--------------
this from

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?p=598277


Matthew Ernest Adams


the frame accumulation actually takes place in the within the camera and you'll see the result immediately in your viewfinder.

Say you're using the 60 frame accumulation (shooting 60i or 30p), the image will not change for two seconds as it is using the light value from all 60 frames on one single frame. Essentially, you only want to accumulate enough frames to make the picture viewable and not too dark, so if five frame accumulation gives you a properly exposed image use just five frames. If you push it up higher than needed, you'll get more motion blur and IMHO a less fluid shot.

When used in combination with time lapse, frame accumulation becomes a great tool for night time lapses.

Stuart I'm sorry I can't give you the actual technology that they use but hopefully you can glean enough from this thread.
Sony puts out free demo DVD's on XDCAM-HD with all these videos and descriptions of the techniques. It might be worth it to get them and compare your tests with their results as a benchmark.

Aloha,

Keith

[ColinSmith]

For interest I've put up a little clip of "frame accumulation" worked up in post.

1sec_rolling_exposure.mov (43mb) (right click, save as...) (http://www.flavourproductions.co.uk/1sec_rolling_exposure.mov)

It's a Sony FX1 HDV piece, shot entirely as 25p (well, cineframe but you know what I mean) and reworked in post.

Background was worked to a simple timelapse.
Foreground had 25 frames blended for each new frame. It runs at 25fps, but each individual frame has a 1 second exposure.

So, fun stuff to play with, could be done in camera, but is it a better option?
By doing it in post you have complete control over how many frames to blend, and fade, whether to blend or add frame, or some mix of the two.... all things you would have to preselect on camera.

Only real advantage is reducing the amount of footage to capture.... and the duration of the shot will determine if that is a big deal or not.

[tj williams]

David can someone jump in and explain this to me??????

If you accumulate 24 frames and blend them together into one frame....
or
If you keep the shutter open for 1 second and record the result as one frame....

if you do this over and over and play the results back at 24 fps....

how do you tell the difference????? I gotta admit I'm boggled.

[Tom Lowe]

I shoot lots of time lapse for documentary work. It would be extremely useful to have at least a 40 second exposure. While I can do great time lapse with digital slrs (especially nightscapes), I can't transition the shots to real time. If the RED had a long exposure I could (and certianly would) use it for senic shots flowing from starscapes to realtime sunrise. With my moco head I can see the shots already.... camera panning as stars cross sky (also reflected in pond) as sun rises ramp to real time, pan ends as moose comes into frame with water dripping from antlers. I would have used this technique several times on the sequence I shot for PLANET EARTH. I would love to be able to do this. So, if possible please, please, please on long exposures.


keith@wildtimemedia.com

You shot for Planet Earth?? :w00t:

Which sequence?

[ColinSmith]

A traditional timelapse with 1s exposure could only be shot at 1fps, so playing that 1fps clip back at 24fps would speed things up, show clouds moving faster etc.

A frame acculation giving 1s total exposure is still recorded at 24fps, so can playback at 24fps with realtime motion, just now with motion blur equal to a 1s exposure.

My clip a few posts up shows both techniques in the one shot.


If you are asking about the difference in a single FRAME between a 1s exposue and 24 blended 1/24 exposures? There is none at all.
The difference comes by being sneaky and blending CONTINUOUS groups at 24 frames to get the 24fps playback instead of 1fps.

Or of course with Red you could shoot at 60fps, mixing it up and add blending to get a slo-mo shot, but with controllable amounts of motion blur, or....... lots more options.... ;-)

[Morning Glory]

I'm SO glad this thread exists. More than any other so far. I own a few bolexes, and my favourite feature is the single frame variable shutter, where the shutter stays open for as long as you hold the shutter button. I've often stopped down 3 stops from what I would expose 24fps and then animate or pixelate an object or person, using a slightly different shutter speed for each frame. sometimes adjusting the aperture, sometimes not. so yes, you get some over and underexposed frames in there, usually I would choose a rhythm for my variable/manual shutter speeds, long long long short short for example, which gives a wonderful visual rhythm. As well I loved staying on the object for 3/4 of the exposure and then quickly twisting away, or pushing in, pulling out, etc. very poetic and dreamy. Perhaps not a wide use of this possible addtition to the functionality of RedONE, but one I would use often and perhaps the one 'effect' I would otherwise use film for.

So, I guess my addtion to the requests in this thread is, is there is a variable shutter setting, esp one that goes into the seconds, a wonderful option for me would be to have the shutter speed tied to the record button, or a user assigned button on the super grip, that would open the shutter when pressed and the release it when released.

Thanks for listening.

[JohnF]

Stuart,



As for "Slow Shutter" again, if someone says "i must have this feature or your camera cannot be used" then I'd just like to know what the specific effect is that is being requested. It is not clear to me what it is that SloS offers that a properly designed timelapse wouldn't.

Any specifics on that anyone?

There are many different effects slow-shutter can produce, it is a creative tool that is often requested or is needed to deliver a shot required by a client. It can vary from a natural world landscape shot capturing stars over a landscape to a frenzy of motion blur in a music video.

Ron Fricke's photography in "Koyaanisqatsi" is a great example of the creative potential of slow shutter filming.

The model shots of 2001 were shot on slow shutter so the camera team could stop the lens right down to give the correct DOF to allow the correct perception of scale to the audience.

There is a (very good) shot of a thunderstorm using this technique that is used in almost every doc on the weather. (it's probably made a fortune for the person who shot it) The cloud is illuminated from the inside whilst it billows upwards and approaches camera - whilst stars move in the BG.

There was a BBC doc on the history of Rock last night and low and behold there were shots using slow shutter that bridged sequences. In this case a camera driving down a road in New York set on slow-shutter. Whilst the car was moving everything was a trail of various colured lights when it stopped the landscape revealed itself.

I get asked to produce these kinds of shots for even mundane work like corporate work. (The HQ building at night with cars streaming past as rays of light)

Slow shutter work generally breaks down into two types:

1. Obtaining shots of subjects/landscapes where the light level is such (low) that a "normal" exposure simply wouldn't work.

2. The want for more motion blur be it light trails of moving objects (cars at night) or the subject(s) to appear blured.

All the above would not be possible without slow shutter. Normal shutter speed t-lapse would only "freeze" action per frame or not capture enough light to reveal the subject.

I hope that gives you enough info!


Sorry to go off topic a bit, but is this something that can be done in a timelapse? I've often wondered how I could leave a timelapse running from afternoon and have it transition to night. Obviously using auto-exposure with Ap priority would work, but my fear is that the changes in the shutter speed will be visible in the final result -- ie, you would suddenly notice jumps in exposure, resulting in a flickering image?

Tom,

Aperture Priority surprised me by not producing sudden changes in look or feel when I experimented with unattended cameras. The playback overall seemed fine. What's more by locking the lens in this mode it prevented anykind of "breathing" in the lens which can also change the feel of a shot (eg changing DOF or diffraction). What I did notice were things like birds flying through frame at the time of shot would look like dots in the middle of the day but as dusk came they would have a little more in the way of blur. But note this way of shooting only applies to certain subjects some require more than just "automatic" care!

Back OT:

Post based frame accumulation has issues too. Sometimes the algorithm (or whatever) can "average out" the very subject you wanted to capture. Point sources or distant lights are subject to dissapearing using this technique. Cam based frm-acc quality will also depend on the maths of processing (it might be very good for certain subjects but rubbish for others)

In the end slow shutter would definitely capture the subject.

JohnF

[tj williams]

Ok Colin so I'm a little slow here.
So you play the frame accumulation of the 24 frames per second which have each frame identical to the a 1 second exposure. Or you, write a macro and blend the 1 second exposures in a series of dissolves and play the result in real time....

The difference is????

[ColinSmith]

No worries, I have this feeling I am not explaining it very well at all ;-)

The 24fps frame accumulation really does have 24 different frames per second, it is just that they overlap each other.

You have a bunch of regular 1/24 frames.
Frame 1 of the accumulation blends together the regular frame numbers 1 to 24.
Frame 2 of the accumulation blends together frames 2 to 25
3 = 3 to 26

Each accumulation is effectively a 1s exposure, but the "zone" being blended moves at 24fps too.....


If instead you cross fade a series of 1second exposures to give a 24fps playback then you are loosing the intermediate motion. If I am on one side of the room for the first 1s exposure, and on the other side for the second exposure, no cross fade will be able to show me in the middle, where in the frame accumulation take I would be a blur moving from one side of the room to the other..... a 1s long motion blur, but the "front edge" still moving at true speed.

How different it looks depends on the subject

[Jim Arthurs]

To all, in regards to the accumulation effect... isn't it also achievable in post with exactly the same results?

Using Colin's example above, take a recorded stream of 1/24sec exposures (360 degree shutter) and simply use your compositing app of choice to do the same effect?

Depending on the blending method (additive or normal, or...), you can either make the resulting stream effect an additive accumulation of originally under-exposed images that jointly build up to a normal exposure (light accumulation), or properly exposed images simply blended together... each of these blending methods have their place, but if done "in camera" then you are locked into the look the camera gave you with no option to change it.

Here's an example... let's say you're having to under-expose three stops because you simply can't get enough light... and you want to shoot the RED at 24 fps, with 360 degree shutter and in your compositing app blend three frames together for one using an additive blend... then you have your exposure back to normal and the motion blur length is equal to three frames worth of the original footage frames,

Of course with this example, you could simply shoot at 8 frames a second properly exposued with a 360 degree shutter in the first place! The only visual difference would that any individual frames noise is blended over three frames so the noise floor is perhaps smoother...

As far as I can see, there's no magic with frame accumulation that can't be achieved in post as long as you can record at 360 degree shutter at your desired frame rate.

Of course there are times when you just want lots of footage processed quickly and be done with it, and see the effect real-time on your evf, and hardware based in camera processing is good for that, BUT you aren't excluded from the ultimate final result of an accumulation effect with the existing operation of the RED as we currently understand it.

[ColinSmith]

I'd agree with pretty much all that Jim.

As far as I can see doing the frame accumulation is post gives more options for control and post processing, with the only plus for doing it in-camera being easier exposure control in low light additive blends.
My stuff has all been done in post, and I wouldn't change that even if I had a camera that'd do it as it shot.

My one niggle... A 24fps sequence blended in groups of 3 frames is still different than a 8fps sequence though ;-) Just depending on the subject it might not LOOK any different ;-)

[Keith Brust]

Tom, I shot the sequence on the Saguaro cacti in the Deserts program.

Keith

[Keith Nealy]

JIm and Colin,

Thank you for making the "in post" version a little easier to understand.

Jim said:


but if done "in camera" then you are locked into the look the camera gave you with no option to change it.

The advantage of doing it in camera as in the XDCAM-HD system is with immediate playback. You may be shooting in such a dark situation that you can't even see well to compose and can only judget the take when it is reviewed. Then you can evaluate exposure and change accordingly and review again until you get the look you want. No amount of post wil make up for a badly composed shot or one that has really been exposed badly - so each system has it's advantages.

Jim also agrees by saying:


Of course there are times when you just want lots of footage processed quickly and be done with it, and see the effect real-time on your evf, and hardware based in camera processing is good for that, BUT you aren't excluded from the ultimate final result of an accumulation effect with the existing operation of the RED as we currently understand it.

Frame accumulation is like "nightvision" but without the noise and realtime playback.

Jonathan Ames has done some wonderful dramatic work with it by shooting scenes of an entire room lit by a single candle.

In-camera is also easier , faster and cheaper which also have their places in the production process of some films.

What excites me about computer controlled digital recording is the new frontiers it might open up for us. What's beyond frame accumulation?
And, I'm not looking for new gimmicks... but new tools.

Non-linear editing gave us creative feedback and freedom we never had in linear editing and filmmaking showed improvements because of it.

I have cut as many films on a moviola as I have on an Avid and I assure you the NLE films are better because the tool was better for the creative process.

I am not a big fan of special effects in place of story but as a creative director 35 years I am in favor or any tools that give me realtime access to my creative process.

The potential we have with RED to "Go where no man has gone... before" is enormous and we are fortunate to be a part of making this transition into the democratization of digital cinema a reality. And we are doubly fortunate that we have leaders that are astute enough to listen... which, in a market driven environment, can only improve success.

aloha,

Keith

[Ralph Oshiro]

Tom, I shot the sequence on the Saguaro cacti in the Deserts program.

Keith
Wow! I saw "Deserts" on a 50" 720P plasma. That was GREAT stuff! Really beautiful work, Keith!

[ahusain]

Ralph, I would be very shocked if any camera could expose for stars in under 10 seconds... even with the ISO cranked through the roof. Maybe with a full moon, but still, I can't imagine any camera being able to do it at 1fps.

The question a lot of people want to have answered is whether the RED will do long-exposure timelapses, like 45-second night exposures? Right now people can do it with DLSR's, but the post production chore is a real pain compared to the type of recording an HVX does, for example. With an HVX, you shoot a timelapse, and you can play it back right there on camera, which is pretty amazing. With DLSR, you shoot the frames and then you have to stream them together in an NLE later. And for me, because I shoot RAW DLSR timelapses, the post is even more complicated. If the RED could do long-exposure timelapses the way the HVX does short exposure timelapses, that would be amazing.

But as others have pointed out, with DLSRs, they are so cheap you can have several running at once. And if you are going to burn out your sensor or shutter, better to burn out a $700 DLSR body than a $17,000 RED.



hmm. sony vegas makes this kind of thing trivial: just go to the directory in which all your DSLR pics live, sort them by time using the windows directory bar at the top, then select-all and drag and drop on a vegas timeline. you're done!

you can select the default time you want any still pictures to occupy, so you can change the framerate to whatever you want (you have to do this before you drag and drop though).

took me a few seconds to create video from a huge sequence of jpegs.

[Greg Syverson]

I still remember a few years ago asking a major camera manufacture about frame accumulation on the bigger more expensive cameras. They replied that is was only found in less quality cameras. Now it appears that is does have a use as an effective tool. 4k HD frame accumulation. I like it.

[tj williams]

Colin thanks for the lesson in "frame accumulation"
Can his effect achieved from standard 24P footage in Avid or Final Cut?
Will such a post process increase the cameras ability to look into dark areas?

[Jim Arthurs]

My one niggle... A 24fps sequence blended in groups of 3 frames is still different than a 8fps sequence though ;-) Just depending on the subject it might not LOOK any different ;-)

Yes, you're absolutely right! My mistake!

I'd argue that the overall total temporal information presented over the run of the sequence is the same, but it is certainly displayed differently... 8fps will give you a distinct "stepping" feel, while the accumulated 24fps will be more of a smooth flow with the lowest and highest steps dropping off and appearing on at a faster 24fps basis...

As a final note, it will be interesting to see what the final RED hardware allows, which is the bottom line in this discussion. My gut feeling is that the desired hardware and displayed "accumulation" will be beyond the scope of the first run of RED... but who knows? Some things might be firmware upgrades, and some things will be board level swaps at a time in the future perhaps.

It sure will interesting to see what is allowed for slow shutter... at least the RED Team is aware of our various interests and desires along with the rationales...

[Jim Arthurs]

Colin thanks for the lesson in "frame accumulation"
Can his effect achieved from standard 24P footage in Avid or Final Cut?
Will such a post process increase the cameras ability to look into dark areas?

TJ, the answer is a qualified "Yes"... as long as you shoot 360 degree shutter, so that the blur continues from one frame to the other without a gap in the motion.

For example, you could literally shoot 2 stops under-exposed and do an additive blend over three frames to get your exposure back to normal... as to the actual steps in FCP or Avid... I'm uncertain as I'm not as familiar with either...

[ColinSmith]

To do it in post you'd ideally shoot with a 360 degree shutter, so when you combine frames there are no "gaps" in the motion blur. Apart from that, combining frames is easy enough though, and almost totally flexible in post.

I do it in After effects, but it should be workable in most multi-layer apps.
Normal setup is like this;

Layer 1 is straight video
above that, Layer 2 is offset 1 frame, 50% transparency
above those, Layer 3 is offset 2 frames, 33% transparency
above those, Layer 4 is offset 4 frames, 25% transparency
................

and so on, for as many frames as you want to blend.
The settings above make an equal combination of all the frames, truly like a single long exposure per frame, but you could make the transparency change in different steps too, maybe to make the long motion trails fade off more with time for example.

Now, in the above example each frame should be exposed normally.
To shoot in low light you may want to "add" frames instead of just blending.
I've not tried this one yet, but it would be the same setup, except put the layers in an "add" blending mode. I would expect that for most shots you would still ramp off the transparency to be able to combine enough frames without it all blowing out, but that would depend on the subject and exposure.

In the "add" case you would not have to get a full normal exposure in camera, as you will be boosting the exposure by adding the frames......if you want to add 24 frames, the camera exposure can be 4 1/2 stops under exposed for example...

I'd need to play with this a bit and see how best to work with the exposure settings to combine frames without killing it with noise. The big plus with this post work though is that you will almost always get it to work one way or another ;-)

[ColinSmith]

My gut feeling is that the desired hardware and displayed "accumulation" will be beyond the scope of the first run of RED... but who knows? Some things might be firmware upgrades, and some things will be board level swaps at a time in the future perhaps.

Yes, thinking about it, a frame accumulation would need hardware to buffer 24 to 48 4k raw frames, and processor power add or blend them and write out the new frames at 24 fps.... which would be a fairly heavy task in addition to everything else that is going on....

[Tom Lowe]

hmm. sony vegas makes this kind of thing trivial: just go to the directory in which all your DSLR pics live, sort them by time using the windows directory bar at the top, then select-all and drag and drop on a vegas timeline. you're done!

you can select the default time you want any still pictures to occupy, so you can change the framerate to whatever you want (you have to do this before you drag and drop though).

took me a few seconds to create video from a huge sequence of jpegs.

Sure, any NLE can do this. But I was talking about RAW photos. Also, keep in mind that you have to resize the images as well. Doing post on RAW timelapses is fairly labor intensive, if you ask me. The HVX is much, much easier. But then again, at least it's not chemical film!

[Adrian T.]

For example, you could literally shoot 2 stops under-exposed and do an additive blend over three frames to get your exposure back to normal...

But you're also increasing the noise level. When adding up frames you're also adding up the noise.

[ColinSmith]

Yes, but then again, it is the exact equivalent of what the Sony 350 does in camera.....
I'm interested to try it out, and see what different combinations of frame blending and adding and post noise reduction come out like.
Blending smooths out noise, so possibly adding and blending equal numbers of frames comes out not so bad.....

[Jim Arthurs]

But you're also increasing the noise level. When adding up frames you're also adding up the noise.

Think of it this way... the noise pattern is different from frame to frame... so when you blend 2 or 3 or more frames together, any one final pixel is a dithering of multiple noise positions, while the subject matter, if it isn't in fast motion, stays more or less the same from frame to frame...

People use this technique to produce grainless "freeze frames", and many of the common stop motion capture softwares do this multiple frame blending to make inexpensive web cams and dvcams look far better than they normally do.

One trick I do when I want to sample noise or grain is to find a black shot with no camera motion, sample it over enough frames to make it grainless, then do a difference between a single original frame and the clean mix frame to pull the actual grain pattern out, then do it again and again on sequential frames, creating a grain/noise only sequence, authentic to that particular camera, useful for overlaying onto CGI elements to make them match the live action better...

[Stuart English]

So to continue this exporation. When the frame accumulation is done, is it a rolling process (a) In camera (b) in post

i.e.
1st frame recorded = Frames A + B+ C + D + E
2nd frame recorded = Frames B+ C + D + E +F
3rd frame recorded = Frames C + D + E +F +G

Or
1st frame recorded = Frames A + B+ C + D + E
2nd frame recorded = Frames F + G + H + I + J
3rd frame recorded = Frames K + L + M + N + O

Understood that you could choose to record one or more frames at a time with the output of these calculations ....

[Anders Holck]

What I would like to have in the camera is the ability to do Real long exposure with essentially an open shutter which Stuart described as
1st frame recorded = Frames A + B+ C + D + E
2nd frame recorded = Frames F + G + H + I + J
3rd frame recorded = Frames K + L + M + N + O

This saves a lot of space on the reddrive when doing something like a 24 hours time lapse, when essentially you are going to merge the frames in post anyways.

The frame accumulation that colin describes is pretty easy to do in post as has been discussed, it's essentially a additive video delay effect.
After effects has a plugin called Time>Echo, which allows you to do something like this.

[ColinSmith]

The first way is how I have post processed my shot.
It gives a long exposure, 5/24s in your example, while keeping a 24 fps recording rate.

The second example gives 5/24s exposure too, but now the recording rate is correspondingly down to 24/5 fps..... a traditional timelapse in other words.

The first method is what we (I) have mostly been talking about, although constructing the sequences in post you would have the option to build up your composite frames from any combination of shot frames (1/24s 360 degree shutter) that you chose.....

And OK, having just read Anders post, yes, the second option has advantages for regular long duration timelapse...

[JohnF]

Why are we talking about post based frame accumulation when slow shutter would do the job just as well, if not better (and simpler), and save much in storage and time in post?

And as someone has already mentioned if frame accumulation is not processed correctly it can increase noise not decrease it...




And OK, having just read Anders post, yes, the second option has advantages for regular long duration timelapse...

It has many other advantages for creative filming applications full stop.

Slow shutter please!!!

JohnF

[ColinSmith]

I'd see them as 2 different option to choose from.
Slow shutter cannot do everything that frame accumulation can do, and frame accumulation may have it's own disadvantages.

In Stuart's examples you can see that the "slow shutter" processing is just a variation of the "frame accumulation" processing in any case.... the only differences are the frame offsets and the fps write speed.

It may be that frame accumulation in hardware has too much of a price to pay in terms of adding capacity to the camera, but if not..... nice to have the choice..... otherwise..... just keep doing it in post, although that could apply to slow shutter as well ;-)

[Keith Nealy]

I agree JohnF.
Post solutions may be available and even more flexible in some situations, but in-camera frame accumulation yields a noiseless image with immediate playback in the field allowing for for adjustments and refinement.
It saves HD space and offers confidence that your shot "in the dark" actually worked and you don't have to wait for post to find out if you need a reshoot.

[Stuart English]

Click to see Sony PDW-F350 demo video (mms://wm.vitalstreamcdn.com/sony_vitalstream_com/XDCAM_HD_Feature_Demo.wmv)

Unless I am missing something, all the effects demonstrated in this XDCAM demo video could be accomplished by Timelapse mode.

With regard to the discussion about Slow Shutter : Note when a clip has 16 frame accumulation, the motion become very jumpy.

i.e If this is true, even though you are recording 24 fps to the disk, 16 out of every 24 images recorded are the same, this is not the same as a rolling accumulation window - such as frame 1 is A+B+C, frame 2 is B+C+D etc as speculated.

And if it is true, the same effect can be provided by a Timelapse mode by keeping the shutter open for 16/24 sec, and recording the result 16 times to the disk.

[Gregory Karydis]

I may be jumping a bit late in this discussion...
I'd love to have

1st frame recorded = Frames A + B+ C + D + E
2nd frame recorded = Frames B+ C + D + E +F
3rd frame recorded = Frames C + D + E +F +G
but would it be possible to take it a step further and have on-the-fly variable frame accumulation?
ie:
1st frame recorded = Frames A + B+ C + D + E
2nd frame recorded = Frames C + D + E +F
3rd frame recorded = Frames E +F +G
4th frame recorded = Frames F + G + H
5th frame recorded = Frames G + H + I + J
6th frame recorded = Frames H + I + J + K + L
like have a couple of buttons assigned to increase or decrease the frame accumulation.

[Stuart English]

In post yes, but in camera that's not likely to happen on any camera because of the amount of memory required to achieve that.

[ColinSmith]

Easier to do it in post with time and full control anyhow, and no difference on the final output, as long as you can shoot 360 degree shutter angle.....

[Gregory Karydis]

Would be nice for live coverage of extreme sports or music shows.
In post I sure can do it :)

[Stuart English]

For anyone who is using this - On the XDCAM what is the delay between what you see in the viewfinder and what's happening in front of the camera - the number of frame accumulated presumably?

[Stokestack]

Guys, I think it's unfortunate that this discussion has been muddied with "frame accumulation". I view "frame accumulation" as a workaround for cameras that don't have proper long exposures. What you get is a series of traditional multiple-exposure still images, is it not? Each frame has a bunch of separate outlines of anything that's moving, instead of the smooth blur that a long exposure would have. Stuart, I think that's the distinction you were asking about.

Not to slam anyone's feature request, but I think frame-accumulation-type effects are clearly best relegated to post. I'd hate to see camera-development time spent on this instead of on the original request: long exposures.

Time-lapse functionality should have these parameters:

1. Exposure duration (shutter speed): up to 10 seconds or more.
2. Time between exposures: fractions of seconds, seconds, minutes, hours?

(the following should be available in combination, whichever occurs first)

3. Total number of frames to record
4. Total duration of time-lapse shooting

And, a nice-to-have feature:

5. Delay until start: After we press the Record button, how long to wait before shooting begins. Good for unattended recording. This might be a good feature for all shooting modes, not just time-lapse.

And although time-lapse can be done with still cameras, there's a major reason for using a motion-picture camera: blending with other full-motion elements that require exactly the same optical characteristics (field of view, DOF, distortion, whatever).

And finally: This kind of functionality would benefit from variable compression rates. When you're only processing a frame per second or less, why limit the quality to what the camera can do at 24, 30, or 60 FPS? I think user-selectable compression levels would provide an important way for us to maximize the quality of our Red images in all shooting modes. At any given frame rate and size, users should be able to max out the throughput of the Red's processor and storage medium to achieve the best quality.

[Andrew Young]

I view "frame accumulation" as a workaround for cameras that don't have proper long exposures.

Thanks for the clarity. I'm guessing that most of us want to emulate the good features of film recording, not video workarounds. Every film camera intervalometer that I've used allows exposures well into the minutes. Having that capability is critical if you want to do night timelapes such as moving stars, northern lights, moonlit landscapes, or daytime long exposure FX with a heavily NDed lens (water and traffic look very cool this way). In film there is no inherent limitation to shutter speed, only the limitation of the intervelometer - please don't limit it to "about 10 seconds" unless there is a technical reason to do so. I doubt we need hours (your timelapse would never get done!) but minutes would be a very good thing.

The only video feature I'm dying to see is a prerecord buffer - it's saved my ass many times!

[ColinSmith]

Guys, I think it's unfortunate that this discussion has been muddied with "frame accumulation". I view "frame accumulation" as a workaround for cameras that don't have proper long exposures. What you get is a series of traditional multiple-exposure still images, is it not? Each frame has a bunch of separate outlines of anything that's moving, instead of the smooth blur that a long exposure would have. Stuart, I think that's the distinction you were asking about.

Not really.

Frame accumulation and traditional timelapse are just 2 variations on a theme.

Time lapse might be a 1 second exposure every 2 seconds say.
Where frame accumulation could be a 1 second exposure at spacings of anything from 24fps to 1 shot every 2 seconds as per the timelapse.

If you shoot with a 360 degree shutter, the accumulated 1 second exposure looks exactly like an exposure with the shutter held open for the full 1 second. The only difference is that you can do a "rolling accumulation" (is there a real name for that?) and mix thing up a lot more.

I see accumulation at this stage as being a post technique to get full control over a timelapse sequence, as it easily allows time ramping and frame blend/add variations as you want.

Some accumulation options may end up onboard the camera, but at the moment that seems to be pushing the buffer and processing requirements too far.
No big deal, just shoot a planned timelapse at a fixed rate, or shoot 24fps with a 360 degree shutter (put up with all the extra data) and set your timelapse options in post.

[JohnF]

No big deal, just shoot a planned timelapse at a fixed rate, or shoot 24fps with a 360 degree shutter (put up with all the extra data) and set your timelapse options in post.

Colin,

I understand what you're saying and I've had to work that way before but I shoot a lot of T-lapse work and whilst that way has benefits it also means a huge build up/back-log of data/work where just shooting it in slow-shutter and/or timelapse in the first place means no back-log and fast turn-around. (which is a big deal when you're busy)
ie the weather here in the UK has been quite dramatic over the past few days and I managed to shoot some of the more interesting events that could have been sellable shots. The problem is that the camera I had to hand had no T-lapse function meaning the shot is sitting there in dataland waiting to be processed, since I am v. busy with other work at the moment, instead of being automatically ready to send off and sell...

JohnF

[ColinSmith]

Sure, know about capturing a ton of video and having to deal with it as well, bad enough on HDV...

But I think with the current Red timelapse options we are not badly catered for.

Shoot regular timelapse, setup on the camera and ready to use when you capture. Or. If you need the freedom in post, you shoot it as normal 24fps and get that freedom, at the expense of the post work.

Now if it was just a software upgrade to give more of the frame accumulation options in camera then cool, add them in and we have a 3rd choice. But at the moment it appears to me that the hardware requirements rule that out. If it becomes an option sometimes later... great :-)

[simon weekes]

Ive just read this entire thread, and it seems there is still no real answer to the long exposure timelapse question.( although a big thanks to stokestack, clarity is wonderful!)

Does red one have an option to shoot timelapses?

If yes, can we open the shutter on single frames for various lenghts of time? And if so, why contain it to 10 seconds?
The exponential nature of long exposures begs for way longer exposure times.and why not?!

thanks
simon
www.skintfilms.co.uk

[Tom Lowe]

This question has been floating around the board for half a year or more: What is the longest exposure possible while doing timelapse? You need at least 30 seconds to 1 minute seconds for star/night stuff.

[JohnF]

The only answer closest to being definite goes something like this.

RED can shoot down to 1fps if one uses a 360º shutter this will give a max exposure of 1sec.

Combined with a intervalometer function this would yield the ability to shoot time-lapse with a max exposure of 1sec/frame.

As I've mentioned before I would much prefer longer exposures, 10secs being the bottom end of my requirements. Ideally I would prefer 30 to 60 seconds. (and I could do some really trippy stuff if I had a "bulb" setting!)

Though remember electronic imagers noise signal (esp thermal noise) can build up rather quickly (+30sec range). Thermal noise can show up as a broad pattern/coloured shape on the image rather than a diffuse white noise and will show up the more one pushes the ISO rating.

JohnF

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Hi, haven't read all of the comments yet about long exposure and timelapse, I'm a bit busy for now: But I plan for my next ski commercial this winter, to have a kind of ramped timelapse with Curts motion head. It will start in the night with stars (long exposure) and will end up in the first light of the morning with slow motion with a carver jumping through the picture. Please let me make this technical possible Jim, give us long exposure...

[danbrazda]

So I searched and didn't come up with anything on this since August so here goes.... I've shot 35mm Timelapse (Arri IIC, III, 435, SR3...etc) for many more years than I care to admit and I would really like to know how to do long exposures with the Red One. Yes, I went through the 3 pages of discussion on this issue when I did the search but I still don't see how to do, for example, a timelapse with 1 frame every 10 seconds with an 8 second exposure (just a random example). Can it be done now (I'm on Build 16)? Build 17? 18? Ever?

[T. Glen Phelps]

1 second is currently the longest exposure the RED One is capable of.

[danbrazda]

I assume you achieve that with 360 shutter angle. Does anyone know if future builds will address the issue of longer exposure times or is the bottom line for the Red One sensor that it cannot exceed a 1 sec exposure time?

[HD Hildebrand]

I've found the Red to have too much noise (so far) for long exposures. I bring a DSLR on shoots for that purpose, shoot long exposures with motion control in timelapse mode, then process the frames through After Effects to turn the RAW images into a sequence. The footage is cutting very well with the Red footage.

[danbrazda]

So I guess my next question is for someone like Graeme Natress or equivalent
and that is...

does the CMOS Mysterium sensor or any other hardware in the Red One kill the ability to do timelapse with exposure times up to or exceeding 10 seconds?
If not, isn't this simply a future build (18!) detail?

[danbrazda]

...well?

[Stuart English]

Does anyone know if future builds will address the issue of longer exposure times or is the bottom line for the Red One sensor that it cannot exceed a 1 sec exposure time?

The RED ONE has a maximum exposure time of 1 second per frame.

There is a BURST record mode that lets you capture a group of frames - for example 10 - those could be summed in post production.

[SeanBrown]

Hey Stuart. so right now the red one can not do longer Exposure the one second per frame so no light painting with this camera?
Like this
http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/1SUURX/www.thecoolist.com/light-graffiti-10-masters-of-light-painting-photography/